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Post by whatif on Apr 30, 2017 0:50:22 GMT -6
Greetings to my brothers and sisters in Christ! Jesus tells us in Matthew 24:37, "As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man." I would like to open this thread to all topics related to what life was like in the days of Noah so we might take a look at how Jesus' words about those days might be fulfilled in our time. Feel free to share your thoughts on anything from Nephilim, giant legends, and DNA manipulation/transhumanism to the current usage of the rainbow which ties days of Noah to days of Lot, from the rescue of the righteous before wrath to speculation on how Noah's age and the dates of the flood might relate to when the rapture might happen, and of course anything else that connects in any way, shape, or form to the days of Noah.
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Post by whatif on Apr 30, 2017 1:04:18 GMT -6
One interesting reference to the days of Noah is in the book of Isaiah. I find this reference particularly amazing, as it is speaking of some of the very things we were presented with in Scott Clark's video regarding the Revelation 12 sign--God's momentary rejection of His unfaithful wife and His compassion returning to her. The passage is Isaiah 54 and I've bolded the reference to the days of Noah. Here's the whole chapter for consideration:
“Sing, barren woman,
you who never bore a child;
burst into song, shout for joy,
you who were never in labor;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband,”
says the Lord.
“Enlarge the place of your tent,
stretch your tent curtains wide,
do not hold back;
lengthen your cords,
strengthen your stakes.
For you will spread out to the right and to the left;
your descendants will dispossess nations
and settle in their desolate cities.
“Do not be afraid; you will not be put to shame.
Do not fear disgrace; you will not be humiliated.
You will forget the shame of your youth
and remember no more the reproach of your widowhood.
For your Maker is your husband—
the Lord Almighty is his name—
the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer;
he is called the God of all the earth.
The Lord will call you back
as if you were a wife deserted and distressed in spirit—
a wife who married young,
only to be rejected,” says your God.
“For a brief moment I abandoned you,
but with deep compassion I will bring you back.
In a surge of anger
I hid my face from you for a moment,
but with everlasting kindness
I will have compassion on you,”
says the Lord your Redeemer.
“To me this is like the days of Noah,
when I swore that the waters of Noah would never again cover the earth.
So now I have sworn not to be angry with you,
never to rebuke you again.
Though the mountains be shaken
and the hills be removed,
yet my unfailing love for you will not be shaken
nor my covenant of peace be removed,”
says the Lord, who has compassion on you.
“Afflicted city, lashed by storms and not comforted,
I will rebuild you with stones of turquoise,
your foundations with lapis lazuli.
I will make your battlements of rubies,
your gates of sparkling jewels,
and all your walls of precious stones.
All your children will be taught by the Lord,
and great will be their peace.
In righteousness you will be established:
Tyranny will be far from you;
you will have nothing to fear.
Terror will be far removed;
it will not come near you.
If anyone does attack you, it will not be my doing;
whoever attacks you will surrender to you.
“See, it is I who created the blacksmith
who fans the coals into flame
and forges a weapon fit for its work.
And it is I who have created the destroyer to wreak havoc;
no weapon forged against you will prevail,
and you will refute every tongue that accuses you.
This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord,
and this is their vindication from me,”
declares the Lord.
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Post by watchmanjim on Apr 30, 2017 14:18:05 GMT -6
Any discussion of nephilim has to begin with the meaning of the verses in Genesis 6. We are told so very little about the situation, and some of the terms are easily disagreed upon regarding their meaning. There is a lot to consider.
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Post by whatif on Apr 30, 2017 23:33:03 GMT -6
That is true, watchmanjim! I am eager to hear your views on the topic!
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Post by watchmanjim on May 9, 2017 22:28:09 GMT -6
I haven't forgotten about this, I just haven't had time to get with it.
Genesis 6 is a battleground passage, and Christians the world over are deeply divided by it.
Another passage that adds to the intrigue is Jude:
Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Also, let's not forget to include Jude v. 14 and 15 in our discussions of the Lord's return, Armageddon, Rapture timing, etc. I always have said that Jude is one passage that gives weight (along w/ Rev. 19) to the concept that a Post-Trib Rapture makes little sense. Why would we be raptured up for just a brief while (who knows how brief) only to be brought right back down again, as if our Lord brought the horses, and we showed up to plop ourselves in the saddles? Well, it's a point for discussion, anyway, and Jude is clear that the ones who come with Him are saints.
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Post by watchmanjim on May 9, 2017 22:32:37 GMT -6
The reason the Jude verses bring intrigue to the Nephilim discussion is because Jude appears to be quoting directly from the forbidden book of Enoch. That third-rail document was found, among other places, in the Dead Sea Scrolls, and is and has been continually used by certain African church groups to this day as if it were canonical scripture. But I have read the translation, and much of it seems extremely far-fetched and even scientifically impossible, and spiritually problematic, to the point it could not have been (in my opinion) directly inspired by the Holy Spirit. Like many of the other non-canonical books, it smacks of "Jewish Fables" and can't be given even the historical credence of Josephus's works or the books of Maccabees (which of course cannot claim inspiration, or infallibility).
The controversial so-called Book of Enoch, among other things, gives its author(s?)' opinion or imagination of what the Genesis 6 fiasco might have looked like. Let's just say I've seen Disney movies that stood up to a lot more scrutiny than the Book of Enoch. But much of the "information" you will find about the Genesis 6 account is influenced, directly, or indirectly, from the Book of Enoch perspective, which in my opinion is unfortunate.
On the other hand, Jude quotes two verses from the work and thereby inserts those two verses into cannonical Scripture, thereby verifying their authority and/or authenticity. Or. . . . is it possibly the other way around, that Enoch quoted Jude? Every history authority says Book of Enoch was written first, especially since the Dead Sea Scrolls are assumed to have been stashed before Christ's death (and probably before His birth).
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Post by whatif on May 9, 2017 23:57:37 GMT -6
The book of Jude has always fascinated me, and I wish Jude had written more than one short letter to the Church, as I would love to learn more from him. I see in the footnotes for Jude 9 on BibleHub regarding the dispute over Moses' body that there is also another book aside from the book of Enoch that Jude refers to: "Jude is alluding to the Jewish Testament of Moses (approximately the first century a.d.)"
(Source: "Jude 1," Holy Bible, New International Version, 2011, Biblica.inc, BibleHub.com, biblehub.com/niv/jude/1.htm)
The verse says, But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” |
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Post by watchmanjim on May 10, 2017 5:57:41 GMT -6
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Post by BrazenLaver on May 10, 2017 6:43:54 GMT -6
The verse says, But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” We ask ourselves why is their disputing over the body of Moses? Hint...God is not finished with Moses! Matthew 17:1-3 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.  Malachi tells the Hebrew readers around 275 BC that he will send Elijah in the last days of God's wrath and to remember the law of Moses. Malachi 4:4-5 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:  When you consider a witness, you have to consider the definition of a witness. A witness establishes a matter of what they have seen and observed. Deuteronomy 19:15 at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established. The witness of Revelation-what have they witnessed? To be continued... |
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Post by whatif on May 10, 2017 10:03:13 GMT -6
Here's a translation of the only known copy, and it is incomplete. Wow! Thank you for posting this, watchmanjim! I'd never heard of it before either. |
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Post by whatif on May 10, 2017 10:13:29 GMT -6
The verse says, But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” We ask ourselves why is their disputing over the body of Moses? Hint...God is not finished with Moses! Yaayyy!!!!! Is he one of the two witnesses, BrazenLaver? I know there's some debate as to whether they will be Elijah and Enoch or Elijah and Moses... I like either choice, but I think it would be very fitting if the witnesses were "the Law" and "the Prophets." |
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Post by Gary on May 10, 2017 10:17:58 GMT -6
I'm torn on Enoch. On the one hand it does seem to contain apocryphal elements. On the other hand, it was quoted directly by Jude who even called Enoch a prophet. From what I've seen there is some scholarly consensus it was written sometime in the first few centuries BC, which if true would personally validate a lot of it to me because of the myriad of verses within it about the Messiah/Son of Man/redemption, etc. There are even verses, I think in Book II or III, somewhere in the chapters 55 - 65 range, that speak of a coming Tribulation and "a woman in labor". There are definitely Dead Sea fragments from it, but no complete work. However, if it is true that a complete Aramaic translation of it exists that was discovered in Qumran Cave 11, then it's a whole different ball game. I've read through it a few times and am torn. My best guess is that there originally was a real Enoch scroll or clay tablet passed down to Noah, but the current post-exile translation contains a whole lot of added material. Some of its contents may be real Scripture, but it's such a mess it's hard to distinguish good sections from bad sections. I've also heard it explained that we might give some of Enoch's descriptions a bit of the benefit of the doubt, because he may have simply been describing how things appeared from his human perspective not from a technical/mechanical/scientific/western perspective. Alternatively, if Enoch should be considered apocalyptic literature like John's Revelation it makes a lot more sense as many things are "symbols". |
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Post by whatif on May 10, 2017 10:24:25 GMT -6
There are even verses, I think in Book II or III, somewhere in the chapters 55 - 65 range, that speak of a coming Tribulation and "a woman in labor". It would be very interesting to read that portion and see if it provides any insights about the Revelation 12 sign, Gary! I'm pretty sure I can find the Book of Enoch online. If I can, I'll try to find the verses you mentioned. |
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Post by Gary on May 10, 2017 10:42:23 GMT -6
Here we go, Chapter 62 (just fyi, throughout Enoch the titles "Elect one" and "Son of Man" refer to the Messiah):
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Post by whatif on May 10, 2017 11:13:40 GMT -6
Thank you for finding the chapter, Gary! I love the reference to Revelation 6:14-17! Do you suppose that at the time of the opening of the 6th Seal there is a moment--even if very briefly--when the world will get a glimpse of the Lord on His throne? Maybe when the heavens are rolled back like a scroll? It seems that the people of the world who are hiding themselves in the caves are aware they are facing the wrath of the Lamb. Might people actually see the war in Heaven taking place somehow during that 6th Seal event?
Also, here's something I was reminded about when I looked at the 6th Seal event: Some time ago I was reading an article regarding a theory that somewhere around the time of the start of the tribulation a cataclysmic event would cause our 365-day calendar to shift to a 360-day calendar. If I can find the article again, I will post it. I don't recall the author's name, but I'm pretty sure I have it in my study notes somewhere. I was just noticing that at the opening of the 6th Seal there is a terrible earthquake that causes every island and mountain to be removed from its place. Could a severe earthquake such as this possibly shift the orbit of the earth to the extent that our time-keeping would be changed? Just a speculation here, but I often ponder that...
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