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Post by boraddict on Feb 15, 2021 23:38:33 GMT -6
This is the first posting on this thread and to get the newest posting go to the end. I am always finding new and exciting information in the Book of Revelation.
I should mention that I am always modifying my theories and analysis on the Book of Revelation to search out hidden truths in the book. Often I will discard some work of mine to explore other interests in the book only to return to my previous work to find errors in my analysis. For those who write books on the BofR and claim that they understand; I say that they have set one theory in stone that will be disproved by someone else. That being said, everything in my thread might be wrong.
I wanted to explore some foundational premises to aid in the understanding The Book of Revelation.
1) God had a book/scroll with 7 seals (Rev. 5:1), and this book/scroll was given to Lord Jesus (Rev. 5:8).
2) Lord Jesus opened each of the 7 seals (Rev. 6:1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 12, 8:1).
3) God gave 7 trumpets to 7 angels (Rev. 8:2).
4) The 7 angels with trumpets sounded (Rev. 8:7, 8, 10, 12, 9:1, 13, 11:15).
The above four statements are never in dispute when scholars consider the BofR; therefore, they can be considered foundational premises.
Please consider that for each of the 7 seals there is a corresponding angel with a trumpet. This seems to suggest that as each seal is opened then the corresponding angel with trumpet sounds. In support of this observation is that the first 4 seals that are called the 4 horsemen (Rev. 6:1-8) have a corresponding four angels with trumpets showing destruction upon the earth (Rev. 8:7-12). With this observation then the 5th seal corresponds to the 5th sounding of the trumpet (Rev. 6:9-11, 9:1-12), the 6 seal to the 6th sounding of the trumpet (Rev. 6:12-7:17, 9:13-11:14), and the 7th seal to the 7th sounding of the trumpet (Rev. 8:1, 11:15-19). Basically this means, according to this observation, that God gave Jesus the seals to open and then he gave to 7 angels to sound with the opening of each seal. Although there is much more to any speculative interpretation it does not change the foundational premises that are stated above.
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Post by mike on Feb 16, 2021 6:40:31 GMT -6
boraddict Wouldnt this be your opinion or anaylsis? I do not see the scripture indicate this as foundational. What you are saying is not stated in any of the verses and is being inserted EDIT - for example the first seal is largely attributed to the false messiah. I do not correlate any angel with a trumpet revealing the anti-christ. Rev 6:1 Now I watched when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2And I looked, and behold, a white horse! And its rider had a bow, and a crown was given to him, and he came out conquering, and to conquer.Rev 8:7 The first angel blew his trumpet, and there followed hail and fire, mixed with blood, and these were thrown upon the earth. And a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees were burned up, and all green grass was burned up.the connection just isnt there
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Post by boraddict on Feb 16, 2021 7:21:23 GMT -6
boraddict Wouldnt this be your opinion or anaylsis? I do not see the scripture indicate this as foundational. What you are saying is not stated in any of the verses and is being inserted Yes, for the most part that is my opinion, that the seals correspond to the trumpets. However there are some areas supporting my opinion such as Chapter 7 that appears to be corresponding to Chapter 10. That is, Chapter 7 is in the 6th seal whereas Chapter 10 is in the 6th trumpet, and since both of these chapters are in the 6th, then their placement seems to support that the seals are in sync with the trumpets. |
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Post by mike on Feb 16, 2021 7:24:00 GMT -6
BORA - How could they be 'in sync' in light of this verse:
8:1 When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. 2 Then I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.
the trumpets were given to the angels after the seventh seal was broken.
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Post by boraddict on Feb 16, 2021 7:33:47 GMT -6
BORA - How could they be 'in sync' in light of this verse: 8:1 When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. 2 Then I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.the trumpets were given to the angels after the seventh seal was broken. Although John saw the seals first and then the trumpets, it does not exclude the possibility that each seal is followed by a trumpet. I will try to find evidence to support this possibility. |
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Post by mike on Feb 16, 2021 7:51:49 GMT -6
BORA - How could they be 'in sync' in light of this verse: 8:1 When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. 2 Then I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.the trumpets were given to the angels after the seventh seal was broken. Although John saw the seals first and then the trumpets, it does not exclude the possibility that each seal is followed by a trumpet. I will try to find evidence to support this possibility. He didnt just see the seals, he saw them opened. He does not say he saw angels with the trumpets until after the 7th seal was opened. 1. the angels may have had the trumpets before the 7th seal, but there is not an indication they were blown in concert wit the seals 2. the angels may have been given the trumpets after the seals Please do find the evidence  |
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Post by venge on Feb 16, 2021 8:13:58 GMT -6
BORA - How could they be 'in sync' in light of this verse: 8:1 When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. 2 Then I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.the trumpets were given to the angels after the seventh seal was broken. Although John saw the seals first and then the trumpets, it does not exclude the possibility that each seal is followed by a trumpet. I will try to find evidence to support this possibility. Bora, Trumpets are used to sound incoming war, to celebrate a special day, to announce a new new King and to call a nation to assemble together. I couldnt agree with Mike anymore in his last post, the seals are broken to open the contents of the scroll. The scroll acts as a legal binding document much like a "deed". Once the seals are broken, its contents can be viewed. The seals arnt wrath itself, but what keeps the contents closed off and secured. Once the seals are broken and the contents can be viewed, angels sound off with Trumpets. Now the contents (of the Trumpets) may seem horrible from a literal standpoint, but they are actually bringing the world one step closer to God's Kingdom on earth with each trumpet sounding. So are the Trumpets themselves bad or do they announce his Kingdom come, his will be done? The 1st four Trumpets are under God's judgment (Orge) for the 5th seal martyrs. "Orge" is used to express God's constructive and most likely, isolated judgement against what he feels will be to the 5th seal martyr's requests for vengeance. The seals have no wrath whatsoever in them making them unlike the trumpets. Secondly, Joel says...the sun will turn to dark, the moon to blood. That event is detailed in the 6th seal making seals 1-6 tribulation which is a completely different word from wrath. They have no textual comparison! Notice in Joel, that event happens BEFORE Christ returns in wrath. That fact coupled with there is no term for wrath till after the 6th seal is open proves it. Seals restrict and confine information, they are never the information themselves. Instead, they focus on preserving the information till opened. Therefore, the seals are not the wrath of God and they cannot bring God's wrath till they are all broken and the scroll is completely opened. |
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Post by boraddict on Feb 16, 2021 8:25:05 GMT -6
Although John saw the seals first and then the trumpets, it does not exclude the possibility that each seal is followed by a trumpet. I will try to find evidence to support this possibility. He didnt just see the seals, he saw them opened. He does not say he saw angels with the trumpets until after the 7th seal was opened. 1. the angels may have had the trumpets before the 7th seal, but there is not an indication they were blown in concert wit the seals 2. the angels may have been given the trumpets after the seals Please do find the evidence So if we go back to the beginning at Rev. 5:1 we are told that God had a scroll, and it was after Lord Jesus gave his life (Rev. 5:6) that he then took the scroll from God (Rev. 5:8). However, in the interplay of the verses we see at Rev. 5:5 Jesus and the seals, and then at Rev. 5:6 we are told of the "seven spirits of God" that are sent forth into all the earth" (the trumpets, IMO). So we seem to be given at Verses 5:5-6 a brief statement concerning the seals and trumpets of Chapters 6-11. From this we see that the seals and trumpets are closely related because they are both included in Verses 5:5-6. This means that the seven spirits of Rev. 5:6 are the seven angels with trumpets. Again, some evidence supporting this is that the seven angels stood before God (Rev. 8:2) and the Savior stand in the midst of the throne having the seven spirits of God (Rev. 5:6). Along with the above information is the point that Jesus has the seven spirits of God that are sent forth to the earth (Rev. 5:6). |
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Post by venge on Feb 16, 2021 8:51:42 GMT -6
He didnt just see the seals, he saw them opened. He does not say he saw angels with the trumpets until after the 7th seal was opened. 1. the angels may have had the trumpets before the 7th seal, but there is not an indication they were blown in concert wit the seals 2. the angels may have been given the trumpets after the seals Please do find the evidence So if we go back to the beginning at Rev. 5:1 we are told that God had a scroll, and it was after Lord Jesus gave his life (Rev. 5:6) that he then took the scroll from God (Rev. 5:8). However, in the interplay of the verses we see at Rev. 5:5 Jesus and the seals, and then at Rev. 5:6 we are told of the "seven spirits of God" that are sent forth into all the earth" (the trumpets, IMO). So we seem to be given at Verses 5:5-6 a brief statement concerning the seals and trumpets of Chapters 6-11. You are using the word "seven" and IMO, are applying it to 2 different things Bora. The 7 spirits of God and 7 angels that stand before God/or in his presence are separate. God tells us the stars are the angels of the 7 churches in Rev 1:20 That means, the 7 spirits/breath/wind of God are different. Rev 4:5 tells us about God's spirits These torches, lamps or lanterns are used to denote the object that shines brightly. Back in Rev 1:20, the 7 churches are called candlesticks which also burn brightly. But these both were in God's possession and now in Rev 5, they are in Christ possession as we move from an Old covenant to a New one where Christ has rose to heaven, able to receive the scrolls and sit on the right hand of power. There are also other 7's (Zechariah 3:9; Zechariah 4:2; Zechariah 4:10) If, somehow the spirits were angelic, it still have a contradiction with the things I posted above. Trumpets are never identified as seals, as breaking a seal, as going forth from God. Those things "going forth into all the earth" happen to be his Church and the 4 spirits of God which roam throughout the earth in Zechariah. |
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Post by mike on Feb 16, 2021 9:17:32 GMT -6
boraddict I see what you are saying but I see that you are inserting something that is not said. venge clearly points this out. Might I suggest something to you sister? The book of Revelation is mostly if not wholly derived from OT scriptures, with Johns heavenly vantage point included. For example many things we see in Daniel and Zechariah (among the other prophets) are found in Rev also. None of us can fully understand things that have yet to happen, but we have many of the clues embedded in the OT scripts. An exhaustive study in those areas may help with your studies of BoR. We can also do it together here on the site! Why not study certain books or topics together, as a body
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Post by Natalie on Feb 16, 2021 14:19:21 GMT -6
There is a great list out there by Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum. Just Google Old Testament in Revelation and his last name and you will find links to PDFs. I tried to find a link to share and can't on my phone. I will try later on my laptop.
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Post by boraddict on Feb 16, 2021 18:02:48 GMT -6
mike, that sounds fine but I was identifying things that were not in dispute as foundations in understanding the BofR. I think we all agree to items 1-4 that I placed in my 1st posting as good examples of those foundations. Another thing that venge, mentioned is that "the seven Spirits of God" in Rev. 5:6 are the seven lamps of Rev. 4:5. These seven spirits are also the seven horns and seven eyes (Rev. 5:6). Also, these seven Spirits of Rev. 5:6 are included in Rev. 1:4 as before the throne. I think we all can agree on this and they could be placed as a founding principle in understanding the BofR. mike, venge, Natalie, do you agree with this conclusion. If so then the seven spirits are number 5 in the list and they are also called the seven horns, seven eyes, and seven lamps. Please disregard any of my opinion/analysis since that was not the purpose of this thread.
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Post by yardstick on Feb 16, 2021 20:27:31 GMT -6
mike , that sounds fine but I was identifying things that were not in dispute as foundations in understanding the BofR. I think we all agree to items 1-4 that I placed in my 1st posting as good examples of those foundations. Another thing that venge , mentioned is that "the seven Spirits of God" in Rev. 5:6 are the seven lamps of Rev. 4:5. These seven spirits are also the seven horns and seven eyes (Rev. 5:6). Also, these seven Spirits of Rev. 5:6 are included in Rev. 1:4 as before the throne. I think we all can agree on this and they could be placed as a founding principle in understanding the BofR. mike , venge , Natalie , do you agree with this conclusion. If so then the seven spirits are number 5 in the list and they are also called the seven horns, seven eyes, and seven lamps. Please disregard any of my opinion/analysis since that was not the purpose of this thread. erm.... What then was the purpose of this thread? |
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Post by boraddict on Feb 16, 2021 21:16:48 GMT -6
mike , that sounds fine but I was identifying things that were not in dispute as foundations in understanding the BofR. I think we all agree to items 1-4 that I placed in my 1st posting as good examples of those foundations. Another thing that venge , mentioned is that "the seven Spirits of God" in Rev. 5:6 are the seven lamps of Rev. 4:5. These seven spirits are also the seven horns and seven eyes (Rev. 5:6). Also, these seven Spirits of Rev. 5:6 are included in Rev. 1:4 as before the throne. I think we all can agree on this and they could be placed as a founding principle in understanding the BofR. mike , venge , Natalie , do you agree with this conclusion. If so then the seven spirits are number 5 in the list and they are also called the seven horns, seven eyes, and seven lamps. Please disregard any of my opinion/analysis since that was not the purpose of this thread. erm.... What then was the purpose of this thread? Okay that made me laugh. I was hoping to identify things that everyone agreed with in the BofR. So, I considered them to be something like undisputed points of reference. I stated 4 of these in my first posting, that are undisputed, and hoped to follow with several more. However, the opinion that I presented that the seals appear to have trumpets associated with them was never fully developed and I would like to attempt a rational argument to that end. Please notice the following language of the 1st seal and 1st trumpet: Rev. 6:2, "And I looked, and behold, a white horse! And its rider had a bow, and a crown was given to him, and he came out conquering, and to conquer." Rev. 8:7, "The first angel blew his trumpet, and there followed hail and fire, mixed with blood, and these were thrown upon the earth. And a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees were burned up, and all green grass was burned up." From the perspective that a trumpet announces God's response to the opening of a seal. Then, when the rider of the white horse came out conquering and to conquer, God sent hail and fire mixed with blood upon the earth and a third of the earth was burned up. I do not see a problem with the trumpets following the seals in this manner. |
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Post by yardstick on Feb 16, 2021 22:34:24 GMT -6
erm.... What then was the purpose of this thread? Okay that made me laugh. I was hoping to identify things that everyone agreed with in the BofR. So, I considered them to be something like undisputed points of reference. I stated 4 of these in my first posting, that are undisputed, and hoped to follow with several more. However, the opinion that I presented that the seals appear to have trumpets associated with them was never fully developed and I would like to attempt a rational argument to that end. Please notice the following language of the 1st seal and 1st trumpet: Rev. 6:2, "And I looked, and behold, a white horse! And its rider had a bow, and a crown was given to him, and he came out conquering, and to conquer." Rev. 8:7, "The first angel blew his trumpet, and there followed hail and fire, mixed with blood, and these were thrown upon the earth. And a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees were burned up, and all green grass was burned up." From the perspective that a trumpet announces God's response to the opening of a seal. Then, when the rider of the white horse came out conquering and to conquer, God sent hail and fire mixed with blood upon the earth and a third of the earth was burned up. I do not see a problem with the trumpets following the seals in this manner. There is a hypothesis that posits that the seals trumpets and bowls are not sequential, but are concurrent. That is: Seal 1, Trumpet 1, Bowl 1 Seal 2, Trumpet 2, Bowl 2 Seal 3, Trumpet 3, Bowl 3... et c However, I believe that hypothesis also supposes that the seals trumpets and bowls are all different descriptions of the same events. I would second Natalie's suggestion that you review and compare many of the relevant OT passages which in many cases are simply reiterated/clarified/paraphased or expounded upon in Revelation. I believe there is a link in the boards that will take you to the fruchtenbaum reference offsite. Use the search link at the top of the page. |
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