Foundations in understanding The Book of Revelation

Thank you venge , and I will consider each question carefully and answer with my understand of scripture as follows:

1) The angel of Rev. 9:1 is one of the seven from Rev. 8:2 that stood before God and was given trumpets.

2) While it is true that the word "star" often represents the saints of God as in Rev. 1:16, 20; the word "star" also at times represents a lower class of individual; those who do not follow Christ. An example of this is Rev. 12:4 wherein "the Dragon's tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven" in contrast to the woman having the sun and moon that represents a higher class whom follow Christ.

3) A star falling is Lucifer or one of his followers falling. In the case of Rev. 9:1 it appears that Lucifer presides over the beast that has fallen and this is supported in Rev. 13:2 wherein the dragon gives his power, seat, and great authority to the beast. Thus, the star falling in Verse 9:1 is the rise of the beast. This beast has fallen from heaven meaning he has rejected Christ in favor of Lucifer.

4) The key is the authority to act. In the case of Rev. 9:1-2 the beast has the authority from Lucifer to act; however, more than that, the beast has authority from Lord Jesus to act. This authority is stated in Rev. 1:18 where Lord Jesus gave the keys to John.

5) The abyss is that location from which the beast arises. This is referenced much more clearly at Rev. 17:8. It is the realm of Lucifer wherein the wicked dwell. It is their life like Hitler wherein they hate and selfishly lord over weaker people. The beast arises from this group and then is placed back with this group forever as referenced in Rev. 19:20.

7) The smoke is evidence of a burning. Isaiah 18:4 references the heat of the day and Gen. 15:17 references the smoking furnace. However, Rev. 9:2 mentions that the the smoke is like that of the smoking furnace. In other words, the heat of the day is not your normal tests and trials of everyday life but "like" that. Thus, the burning that causes the smoke is not coming from Christ but Lucifer.

8) The light is Christ. Thus, the sun being darkened is that Lucifer has taken full control of the earth; no light. Thus, the burning upon the people of the earth from Lucifer is not lessened by Christ. Rev. 18:22-23 tells us that the saints are gone; no light upon the earth. At least, no light where the saints are not.

9) Although there may be references to the same things in the OT, the thing that is not there is the promise "to live till Jesus comes." This promise was given to John after the Savior was crucified (John 21:22, Rev. 5:6) and is called the testimony of Jesus (John 21:24). This testimony is referenced several times throughout the BofR beginning in Rev. 1:2 wherein John speaks about his 1st book. That he bare record of the word (John 1), and he bare record of the testimony of Jesus (John 21:22), and lastly that he bare record of all things that he saw between his record of the word (John 1) and the testimony of Jesus (John 21-22). Thus, the promise to live till Jesus comes is the promise of the BofR, and that is what it means to keep the prophecy of the book; to live till Jesus comes (Rev. 22:7). John states that he was at the isle of Patmos for the word of God that is Jesus, and for the testimony of Jesus meaning to live till Jesus comes (Rev. 1:9). Thus, he was at Patmos for Jesus to live till Jesus comes. Also, many have the testimony of Jesus as stated in Rev. 19:10. They will live and give prophecy because to live till Jesus comes is for the purpose of speaking prophetically on behalf of the Savior. (IMO)


In my opinion Verse 9:1-2 reads something like: "Then the fifth angel (from Verse 8:2) sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star (the beast) that had fallen (chosen Lucifer) from heaven to earth, and it (the beast) was given the key to the pit of the Abyss (authority to lead the wicked). The star (beast) opened the pit of the Abyss (leading the wicked of mankind), and smoke rose (evidence of the burning) out of it (mankind) like the smoke (evidenced of the burning) of a great furnace (Christ), and the sun (Christ) and the air (followers of Christ) were darkened (put out of sight) by the smoke (evidence of burning) from the pit (wicked of mankind)."

ALso just want to post this here

The seal judgements are spelled out in the OT : (There are other passages as well, but this one is the clearest)




These seals as others have noted are removed from the scroll, to reveal the contents within it, what is contained in the scroll?? Some say it's a title deed to the earth, but I think the most obvious contents are the trumpet and bowl judgements themselves.  Trumpets on one side, bowls on the other. 

venge, I will do that when I have time. For me The Book of Revelation is so easy to float around in that it takes but a few seconds to go to the verses; however, to search the OT is much more time involved. Are you wanting me to look at any verses in particular?


rt, I bet you are right that the seals, trumpets, and bowls have a lot in common with progressing intensity; consecutively not concurrently. Yes,   when I had to discipline my children I would always start off with "a fair warning." Interestingly they never seemed to stop at the warning and would get into some kind of deeper trouble. Perhaps I was like that when I was a child as well.

The people of Nineveh stopped at the warning from Jonah and were spared God's judgment and wrath.

Hello Fellow Watchmen,  Natalie ,venge ,boraddict ,rt ,mike ,disciple4life , inaweofhim , yardstick , Beloved , @gary, barbiosheepgirl , fitz , @reepicheep, others,  
Great point, mike, re the scores of OT references in Rev. 

I realize that this train [this thread] has left the station, so to speak, and I'm getting on late.

I'm all for any tools and or hermeneutical hints that can give us insight.😊
But there are at least two key issues at play.
1. I don't think we can get five people on this thread, and probably not five Bible scholars/end time teachers who are not part of the same denomination who would agree on Five foundations in interpreting Revelations. Case in Point, JD Farag, Perry Stone, Jack Hibbs, Dr Barry Awe, & Rabbi Jonathan Cohn. [just try to find five end times scholars in the same tradition- it's like catching the wind.
I think most everyone here would agree that @bora has invested countless hours and has unusual insight in regards to Revelation 😇 but in # 4, I'm confused as to why you said the seals were opened- past tense??  I'm not saying you believe that, but in the opening post, the point was written in past tense, and some people believe that some of the seals are already opened.  
2. According to messianic Jewish scholar and author Avi Ben Mordecai, Signs in the Heavens, a Jewish Messianic Perspective of the Last Days and Coming Millennium,

    "the book of Revelation is unique in the way it uses Hebrew scriptures with a limited number of direct quotes from the OT [tanakh].  But according to man Jewish sources including David Stern in his Jewish New Testament Commentary,, Revelation contains no [sic] less ( no fewer than) 500 references to the books of Deuteronomy, Exodus, Isaiah, Hosea, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Zechariah, Amos and Daniel.  Hundreds of quotes specifically point to passages dealing with God's judgment on the Day of the Lord. " 

He goes on to point out very specific examples, and cites extensive sources from scripture, confirmed by other passages from the Talmud - [Jewish commentary on the OT] which show that the Day of the Lord is always  - without exception - refers to Jacob's Trouble the 7 year tribulation.  It is never used to refer to the rapture.  The two are mutually exclusive.  

Just like in the movie National treasure - you have to have three things all working together. 
1. All the riddles and clues all solved correctly, in order - one after the other.   - An incorrect solution to a riddle leads you to a false clue. 
2. the special map, which is only obtained when all the clues are all solved in order, and 
3. the special glasses, with multiple colored lenses, which are vital to reading the map. 

Without the map, the glasses are worthless, - without the glasses, the map is worthless.  The Map is like the Holy Spirit.  Or you could say that the Holy Spirit is the glasses,  - don't get hung up on which one.  The point is that all Christians have the Holy Spirit - the map, but due to ignorance - [lack of clues, lack of study, and centuries of removing Jewish influence] they don't have the glasses.   

If we had an epic story written in Russian about a Russian King, written in a Russian culture, and to a mostly Russian audience, filled with literally hundreds of clues and idioms from Russian culture, - it would be like thinking that all we need to do is translate the story.   [Insert Exploding head emoji here].  

Secular historians and anthropologists and linguists all agree.  You can learn culture without learning another language, but it's impossible to learn another language without learning culture.

If we want to really understand a biblical text,  1. We have to understand first, that the writer or speaker is quoting something.  and 2. what was the quote from, who said it, what was the source  and 3. what was the context or meaning of that quote.   

Jesus and Paul and John and Peter, used a Hebrew Rabbinical teaching technique  caled remez, where he quotes a part of a well-known passage, hidden or imbedded in another well-known context - such as a Hebrew wedding, to make a point.  The students or audience already knew and understood the background context and the quote just highlighted and confirmed the main point.   
So when Christ on the cross said - My God why have you forsaken me - it doesn't mean or imply that God forsook his son - a mind-numbing false explanation used by thousands of pastors and Youtube warriors - he was quoting a well-known passage from Psalm 22 which was a very clear and unmistakable prophecy about the messiah and the crucifixion. 
He's saying to every person watching - "Hey, see, the thing you already know about the messiah, and how he would die, - I am He."  I'm never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down.  I'm coming back on the Day of Fireworks.  

The point is that even though all of us would agree that if we really wanted to understand the Russian story - if there were some treasure to find, or some mystery to unlock that directly affected us, - that we would have to look deeper than just a google translation, but we don't do the same with scripture - and it's more true of Revelation than any other book.     

He points out that just in Revelation 4 and 5, that there are no fewer than 4 cultural and linguistic clues - which were instantly clear to the readers - that point to a specific annual event, and which was confirmed by John, Paul and even Christ himself.   Without the glasses of Jewish culture , trying to read the map is a fool's errand- getting all the toothpaste back in the tube. 

So, it's not my intention to stall or reroute the train, - But I think that it would be good to use the glasses.   It's not just about the feasts, but that certainly is a part.  Trying to understand revelations without understanding/ learning about the feasts is like trying to read the map without the glasses.   3 of the biggest mysteries in Revelation that Christians have been trying to understand are the rapture, the second coming, and the millennium.  These are all revealed in the 3 Fall Feasts, and we know from Zechariah that all the nations of the earth - Jew and Gentile will celebrate the last one - Feast of Booths in the 1000 year millennial reign.  Yet so many Christians dismiss them lock, stock and barrel.   Why?? 

So why are people so reluctant/ why is there so much resistance to picking up the glasses and the lens of the culture that the Bible was written in, to help us understand it? 
In my opinion, that question is the starting point.   The saddest part is that we have the glasses - but for various reasons, people just refuse to pick them up and put them on - and the irony is that most often, one reason is the arrogant claim that the Jews are blinded, so we can't/shouldn't try to understand Jewish culture.   
Natalie ,venge ,boraddict ,rt ,mike ,disciple4life ,Natalie ,venge ,boraddict ,rt ,mike ,disciple4life ,
Blessings, 
Maranatha, 

I love the discussion and I'm not trying to stir the pot, - but a challenge - it's probably a new thread - is to have each person willing or interested,  submit 2 points that they think could have agreement - and give support for each from scripture.   With the goal to get 5 points, and guessing that both of their points might not be accepted.  Has to be teamwork.   Heheh.   
For example - One might be the guideline/ point that Revelation is not strictly chronological.  Events in chapter 12 doesn't necessarily have to come after something in Chapter 2.   ;-)   

Thinking about a possible type and shadow relationship between Chapters 6-11 and 12-19 where the events of the 1st 3.5 years are similar to the events of the 2nd 3.5 years and visa versa. This might explain the Chapter 16 ending as a shadow of Chapter 9 as the type. It would also explain the great sign showing up in Chapter 12 and not in Chapter 6 where it should be (IMO).

So the theory is that the completed story in Chapters 6-11 may have applications to the 1st 3.5 years and applications to the 2nd 3.5 years. Secondly, the completed story in Chapters 12-19 may have applications to the 1st 3.5 years and applications to the 2nd 3.5 years. The question then becomes; What in each of the two stories applies to the 1st 3.5 years and what in the completed stories applies to the 2nd 3.5 years?

We can see that the great sign in Chapter 12 has already past so it would apply to the 1st 3.5 years. Secondly, the rider of the white horse may represent someone that pretends to be Christ; because, the rider of the white horse in Chapter 19 is Christ. So from this we can summaries that the rider of the white horse in Chapter 6 is the false prophet. So we can juxtapose the great sign with the rider of the white horse to show that the 1st 3.5 years begins with the great sign and the 2nd 3.5 years begins with the false prophet. From this it may be the case that Chapters 6 and 12 may juxtaposed (in whole or part) in their relationships to the 1st and 2nd 3.5 year periods of time.

Another problem that I have never solved is the point that John seems to make that the bowls in Chapter 16 are completed prior to the fall of Babylon in Chapter 17. He does this by referencing the angel (from the bowls) in Rev. 17:1. I have always discounted this reference as something of insignificance; however, the above theory suggests that Chapter 16 is a type of some event that takes place prior to the fall of Babylon in the 2nd 3.5 year period, or, that it juxtaposes into the 1st 3.5 year period of time. Because of this then the reference to the angel in Verse 17:1 becomes a time marker that Babylon falls (17) after a wrath of God "type of event" (16). This wrath of God type of event (16) seems to be stated in a type and shadow relationship. That is, the event is not the ending wrath of God as is shown in Chapter 16 (the type) but something like that that precedes the fall of Babylon (17). This means that Chapter 16 is not the actual wrath of God event but is something like it. This shows that the mark of the beast precedes the fall of Babylon. venge , can you take a look at this.

So if we look at Chapters 12-19 as a unit then we have the following:

Ch. 12, the great sign
Ch. 13, the mark of the beast
Ch. 14, the saints with God
Ch. 15, the angels prepare to destroy
Ch. 16, hurt and destruction upon those with the mark of the beast
Ch. 17, the fall of Babylon
Ch. 18, the destruction of Babylon
Ch. 19, the marriage of the church and the destruction of the beast

Next would be the Chapters 4-11 as a unit as follows:

Ch. 4, the hereafter
Ch. 5, the Savior takes charge
Ch. 6, the false prophet and his relationship to the beast
Ch. 7, the saints of God called forth to the temple
Ch. 8, the angels prepare and destroy
Ch. 9, the false prophet and the gods he worships
Ch. 10, the angel with a message
Ch. 11, the two witnesses and the destruction of the wicked

It seems that the beast has primary control in the 12-19 block of events and then the Savior has primary control in the 4-11 block of events. So the 1st 3.5 years is the beast and his mark (12-19) and the 2nd 3.5 years is the Savior's response (4-11).

Thank you rondonmonson, I like your explanation; perfectly reasonable. Does that analysis come from you exclusively or have you derived it part/all from other sources?