ksteven
Layman
Posts: 58
Favorite Verse: Philippians 4:6-7
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Post by ksteven on Oct 27, 2020 13:32:10 GMT -6
I have a genuine question of curiosity directed at those on this cite that believe a post/mid-trib rapture. No arrogance here. Just curiosity. I am not as well versed as many of the active voices on here, and I love to hear all perspectives on many topics that arise. As i know this is predominantly pre-trib community, I mostly read on that perspective, but I know there are others such as venge who hold differing views. My question, though perhaps vague, is what our "comfort" and "blessed hope" regarding the end times? We are promised salvation through Christ, as is promised to all people from all ages in history who have faith in Jesus Christ. But if the rapture is post/mid-trib, are we not then actual promised MORE suffering than any previous generation? I find it hard to see comfort in that. 1 Cor 15:51-52 (LSV) 51 Behold, I tell you a secret: we indeed will not all sleep, but we will all be changed; 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed; 1 Thess 1:10 10 and to wait for His Son from the heavens, whom He raised out of the dead—Jesus, who is rescuing us from the anger that is coming. 1 Thess 4:15-18 (LSV) 15 for we say this to you in the word of the LORD, that we who are living—who remain over to the coming of the LORD—may not precede those asleep, 16 because the LORD Himself, with a shout, with the voice of a chief-messenger, and with the trumpet of God, will come down from Heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first; 17 then we who are living, who are remaining over, will be snatched up together with them in [the] clouds to meet the LORD in [the] air, and so we will always be with the LORD; 18 so, then, comfort one another with these words. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Throughout Revelation, we see the 144,000 sealed, the tribulation martyrs raised (after being killed), the two witnesses being raised (after being killed), the tribulation saints and then the remnant being rescued in the reaping, right before God's final wrath. But it seems to me, if that is "the rapture", then very few people will be still alive, and all of them would have been dragged through the mud before that happens. Rev 6:9-11 (LSV) 9 And when He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony that they held, 10 and they were crying with a great voice, saying, “Until when, O Master, the Holy and the True, do You not judge and take vengeance of our blood from those dwelling on the earth?” 11 And there was given to each one a white robe, and it was said to them that they may rest themselves yet a short time, until may also be fulfilled their fellow-servants and their brothers, who are about to be killed—even as they. Rev 13: 5-10 (LSV) 5 And there was given to it a mouth speaking great things, and slanders, and there was given to it authority to make war forty-two months, 6 and it opened its mouth for slander toward God, to slander His Name, and of His dwelling place, and of those who dwell in Heaven, 7 and there was given to it to make war with the holy ones, and to overcome them, and there was given to it authority over every tribe, and tongue, and nation. 8 And all who are dwelling on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Scroll of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world; 9 if anyone has an ear—let him hear: 10 if anyone [goes] into captivity, into captivity he goes; if anyone is to be killed with sword, it is necessary of him by sword to be killed; here is the endurance and the faith of the holy ones. Rev 13:15 (LSV) 15 and there was given to it to give a spirit to the image of the beast, that also the image of the beast may speak, and [that] it may cause as many as will not worship the image of the beast, that they may be killed. Rev 14:12-13 (LSV) 12 Here is endurance of the holy ones: here [are] those keeping the commands of God, and the faith of Jesus.” 13 And I heard a voice out of Heaven saying to me, “Write: Blessed are the dead who are dying in the LORD from this time!” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “That they may rest from their labors—and their works follow them!” ...Which occurs right before the reaping at Christ's return.I'm sure im leaving important scripture out of this, and again, I am not as well versed as others. But it just seems like our likely guarantee with end times (excluding pre-trib rapture) is physical death and/or torment. This was actually brought to mind by a statement on a recent thread, which has now been stopped: Quote... "Have any of you ever considered what this generation (or you personally) has done that makes it worthy of "rescue" from tribulation, disease, persecution?
Is it because you have been raised in America and enjoyed the blessings of this nation? Many around the world and over centuries have suffered and died for the name of Christ and now you somehow have been betrayed into believing that you will will be rescued from these things? Is it because of your great faith? Your purity? NO! You shall not be rescued. Nor shall you desire rescue." My thought is kind of the opposite; What have we (this generation of true believers) done (differently than those before us) that makes us MORE worthy of tribulation, disease, and persecution? Please speak your thoughts, and as always God bless, brothers and sisters in Christ. |
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Post by mike on Oct 27, 2020 14:05:43 GMT -6
ksteven Great topic for discussion. I'll bite but only take a small bite for the moment. No need to resolve the whole thing in a moment  First I came to a greater understanding over time, not in a moment. My older brother passed a few years ago, shortly after God got a hold of me (again - I was horribly back-slidden). It came to mind that I would likely make the rapture alive and now he wouldnt. This whole situation caused me to look into what the blessed hope really meant to me. I thought "wow he's actually gonna rise from the dead, I'll probably see this - maybe for a second, maybe longer but he gets his new body before me" this is the blessed hope. the whole topic of people passing before the rapture became something I thought more and more about. If I were to be alive when that happens, is this a blessing? Well here in America it seemed virtually impossible to think we would suffer from tribulation or in the greek: thlipsis - carries the challenge of coping with the internal pressure of a tribulation, especially when feeling there is "no way of escape" ("hemmed in") But then I began to hear about stories of people, Christians across the world suffering persecution: Matt 24:9 then they shall deliver you up to tribulation, and shall kill you, and ye shall be hated by all the nations because of my name; But this has been going on for thousands of years already, the Crusades for example, we dont live in that time any longer, right Mike? Well no we don't but the bible seems clear that it become like that again. But I thought it didnt matter, because I would be snatched away from that before it really got ugly. Sad for my brothers in China or Iran, but thats for them. I'm in the free world and they'll rise first anyway. What makes me more special than those who were persecuted before me? I am more special than my brother? I am more privileged than Jesus? WHAT!? I'll leave off at this for this for the moment but I began to consider this aspect about the Lord. He taught us everything and showed as much as we needed to know. He showed the way to eternal life, through Him. But he also had to die, all the apostles save one were murdered, why not me too? Post script - Forget the hollywood version of the rapture and I suggest you keep an open thought on this. Think about the end times and simply remove the current placement of the rapture. If you think its at the beginning or the end, remove that and go into the investigation without putting it somewhere and see where you land, then identify where it may belong. I still don't have 100% answer but am no longer persuaded it is first. Also if it is first and I'm wrong - Hallelujah!!!
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Post by venge on Oct 27, 2020 14:24:55 GMT -6
ksteven, I am reminded of this: Persecutors are those that give tribulation to others. So when these things come, would they separate you from Christ? They came for all his early church and they still looked to him as their blessed hope. Don't think that your life is of value. We are told to not fear man who can kill us and that is it. But fear God who can kill both body and soul in hell. Our reward is in heaven through his service. Do you? I? Others here? Perhaps not in the USA or Europe....but other countries they do face death. And yet Christ is still their blessed hope. From the first apostle till 150AD, how many Christians were burned, hung, fed to wild beasts, had tar poured on their mouth, ripped apart, dragged by chariot, used as target practice, raped, beaten, imprisoned....and on and on....too many to count. Eusebius talks greatly about the early church and what happened to them. Yet they held to their conviction and pursued with love Christ redemptive work. They went through tribulation to the point of their death, their decapitations, their eyes gauged out...They still had a blessed hope. A few years back, there was a bus in Egypt that got pulled over to the side of the road. A group of men outside the bus ordered everyone off. They asked who were Christians. The others they asked to say a Koranic verse if they could. The ones that could recite a Koranic verse were spared. They next move to a man whose children and wife were with him on that bus. As he got ready to die, because he would not renounce Christ...he told his family he loved them and he would see them again. He was then executed by ISIS in the Arabian peninsula. And he was not the only Christian that was martyred for Christ rather then to give him up and live. I'd gladly lay down my life for Christ. There are many many more verse that Paul uses to detail the pain, anguish, persecutions we will and can go through. But isnt God worth it? Our comfort was just like Paul said to his friends, that we rest knowing we will see our brothers and sisters in Christ again. That is a comfort. We are comforted knowing Christ will save us from the wrath to come. The Jews went through terrible times in Egypt and were saved from it. Lot saw terrible things in Sodom and he was saved from it. Noah saw terrible things and he was saved from it. Paul testifies that his resilience in facing all the troubles he endured made people curious. The early church grew because of the afflictions they endured together. They as a community were strengthened by it. I am not advocating I want to be punished or afflicted, no one wants that. But when it comes, we need to be strong so we dont waiver. When the storm comes, your house needs to be planted firm on a rock so that it does not move like the man on the bus in Egypt, like Paul and his friends and like People today in China, India, and other nations. We have it soo easy compared to other brothers and sisters in the Lord... and to much who is given, much will be required.
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ksteven
Layman
Posts: 58
Favorite Verse: Philippians 4:6-7
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Post by ksteven on Oct 27, 2020 14:26:50 GMT -6
mike, Thank you for your response. I have thought about that at times as well. And I agree to an extent on the point of tribulation like the world has faced until now. We shall all face tribulations, and we should be the better for it. It forces us to become more dependent on Christ, and less on our own abilities. It brings us closer to God. I have experience little persecution in my life, and will be the first to admit I live a cushy life compared to our brothers and sisters in Asia and the middle east. I believe they will be rewarded for their steadfastness in ways that I may not. But with that, we are told: "21 for there will then be great tribulation, such as was not from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor may be." And it has been mentioned often on here that the church being taken first will provoke Israel to jealousy. That the Great Tribulation is more for the nation of Israel than anyone. If we are all still here till the end, suffering the same global calamities as all unbelievers, then what are they to be jealous of? I don't think we will escape ALL tribulation. I think we will see the beginning of the troubles, and many comfortable Christians will have their faith tested, but I'll leave it there until more people put in their two pence.
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Post by stormyknight on Oct 27, 2020 14:33:39 GMT -6
ksteven , It is my hope that the rapture will occur before God's wrath is unleashed on the Earth, but it is my faith in His Word that I will not feel His wrath. Some, maybe me included, may feel the wrath of the devil or those influenced by him.
I don't know what this makes me, a middle of the roader? a fence sitter? I don't know, but pre, mid, or post, I know I will be protected. I guess that is my perspective.
"Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him!" Rom. 5:9 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;" Rom. 1:18 " There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit…" Rom. 8:1,30
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Post by venge on Oct 27, 2020 14:52:05 GMT -6
mike , Thank you for your response. I have thought about that at times as well. And I agree to an extent on the point of tribulation like the world has faced until now. We shall all face tribulations, and we should be the better for it. It forces us to become more dependent on Christ, and less on our own abilities. It brings us closer to God. I have experience little persecution in my life, and will be the first to admit I live a cushy life compared to our brothers and sisters in Asia and the middle east. I believe they will be rewarded for their steadfastness in ways that I may not. But with that, we are told: "21 for there will then be great tribulation, such as was not from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor may be." And it has been mentioned often on here that the church being taken first will provoke Israel to jealousy. That the Great Tribulation is more for the nation of Israel than anyone.If we are all still here till the end, suffering the same global calamities as all unbelievers, then what are they to be jealous of?I don't think we will escape ALL tribulation. I think we will see the beginning of the troubles, and many comfortable Christians will have their faith tested, but I'll leave it there until more people put in their two pence. I wanted to address what is in red above. As you stated earlier, there is more then one way people understand end times events. Pre-TB believe that the Church is taken to provoke the Jews to jealousy and that the majority of Matthew 24 relates to Israel. If they did not, they would have to explain why they don't accept the coming Messiah in Matthew 24 as a resurrection of the dead/rapture event. Doing so would would disprove the original thesis put forth which was that Christ comes once in the clouds, does not touch the earth and raptures...then he comes a second time when he does touch the earth at Armageddon. Whereas others, like myself, understand Christ comes back 1 time. For us, he doesnt come back and leave and then come back again. Once he comes back (2nd advent), we are received to him to be wherever he is. Paul says that we receive immortality at his appearing and his Kingdom (2 Tim 4:1). The book of John state the resurrection of the dead happens on the last day. Not 7 years before the last day. BTW, I am only adding this to explain why I have my view since it differs from your own. I believe we are to go through the problems because the church has work to do. Just as it did in times past. We have never said to that mountain, move from here to there and caused it to move. The mountain (mystery Babylon) still exists. The church is soo broken and scattered into so many different pieces today. And all these broken pieces reap confusion to the lost of who is right and who is wrong. So many have forgotten our purpose. What does Matthew 16:28 mean to you? |
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Post by Natalie on Oct 27, 2020 14:52:05 GMT -6
I just wanted to throw this out there for thoughts - I think that things get muddied with the word tribulation. I have stopped calling it The Tribulation because it gets confusing. Yes, believers will have tribulations. That's Scriptural. I now refer to it as Daniel's 70th week or the Time of Jacob's Trouble. So, would it be better framed as "When in the timeline of Jacob's Trouble is the church raptured?"
I know there are some, like RT, who have defended their mid 70th week rapture with Scripture. It's not a view that the church needs to go through it, but more of how they see Scripture lay it out (manly the book of Revelation I think). I can see where they come from even if I don't hold to that position. I don't understand those that say the church must go through it. Why? Christ has already purified us. What would be the purpose?
Believers throughout history have had to deal with persecution, martyrdom, etc, but there are also Christians who haven't had those types of tribulations. Just thinking of my own family tree - I had relatives who left Europe and came to America because of religious persecution. But I also had many Christian relatives who did not, to my knowledge, get persecuted because of their faith. Was one group more worthy than the other? Was one group more purified?
What does this verse mean? "But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength [be counted worthy] to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man." Luke 21:36 Sounds like there is an escape to what is coming.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2020 15:47:17 GMT -6
I don't understand those that say the church must go through it. Why? Christ has already purified us. What would be the purpose?
I believe some Christians who believe we must go through Jacob's Trouble are likely adherents of replacement theology. They might deny that the 70 weeks are for the Jews because to them, the Jews are no longer God's people. As for recognizing that Jesus purified us, if they focus on purification only as a means to escape Hell, they aren't realizing it is also the entrance to Heaven. |
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ksteven
Layman
Posts: 58
Favorite Verse: Philippians 4:6-7
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Post by ksteven on Oct 27, 2020 15:51:39 GMT -6
ksteven, mike, venge, stormyknight, Natalie, Thank you all for your thoughtful responses. I have been on the fence about pre/mid/post for a while, and while my hope is that it is pre, I can see valid suggestions for all views. Matthew 16:28 is one I have questioned over time. as well as Luke 21:36. I, personally, have no qualms with dying for Christ. It would be my honor and privilege. I have been blessed with a relatively easy life, especially compared to the brothers and sisters through history who have suffered and/or died for their faith, and I dont see myself as any better or more worthy of rescue. I do, however, see the church as all believers (not just those cushioned in America). Those in China, India, and the middle east who have already suffered. Should their suffering increase so that the easy riders taste a little? (Not a question that can really be answered) But, the church (as a whole) has been persecuted for 2000 years already. The 7 years at the end would not be the start of the refining. I don't say any of this to disagree. I am still unsure where I stand. Understand my pain in these debates and discussions come from my station as a father. I have a 3 year old daughter in what is clearly the nearing time of Troubles. Excluding rapture, I have the probable death of my wife and child to look forward to. My own life is nothing, but it terrifies me to think that her brief time this side of eternity will be mostly suffering, and an unlikely rescue. Of course there is the blessed hope of seeing her again beside Christ, and that is the hope of all who have lost. I will be reading and praying and hope to hear more.
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Post by mike on Oct 28, 2020 9:59:33 GMT -6
I would ask that we keep this thread on topic as it is a discussion for post-trib as the title declares (perhaps either mid-trib, pre-wrath views are associated as well). It is not intended to defeat the pre-trib model, nor is there a need to defend the pre-trib model within this discussion. There is a sticky thread with 250 reasons for the pre-trib rapture. ksteven - as I alluded in my earlier post, I ask that you remove the idea that the rapture happens at the beginning of 7 years, you may see this a little more clearly. (SIDE NOTE - I have a 15 yr old daughter who right on the cusp of understanding. I mean she gets that God exists, created, came to earth, etc. but I dont think at this age she "gets it" fully (like atonement for example). So I am with you on the part of me being persecuted, but not her! DoTL - what is the day of the Lord, when does it occur, is anything required to happen before the DoTL? I chose the YLT version for 2Thes 2:3 as the KJV inserts that day shall not come which is not in the original text but implied. So the Lord anger, judgment, wrath are coming, but there are some things that must happen prior to that day. Again keeping in mind the rapture timing isnt established yet in this post. Would you concur that the scripture supports this? |
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Post by Natalie on Oct 28, 2020 10:19:03 GMT -6
If I understand right, mid-trib rapture is before God's wrath is poured out. Which I see as scripturally supported: 1 Thes 5:9, Rev 3:10, I think there is another one maybe in 2 Thes?
But what about for post-trib? What do you do with those verses if the rapture is at the end?
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Post by mike on Oct 28, 2020 10:37:28 GMT -6
If I understand right, mid-trib rapture is before God's wrath is poured out. Which I see as scripturally supported: 1 Thes 5:9, Rev 3:10, I think there is another one maybe in 2 Thes? But what about for post-trib? What do you do with those verses if the rapture is at the end? 1 Thes 5:9 tells us the believer wont experience Gods wrath. So specifically I would say that the concept of 'post-trib' would have to mean the rapture would at the day of the Lord. Meaning the day of the Lord would equate to the final day (24 hours) of the entirety of the tribulation. But I am saving some other info for further in the thread  - Venge may have a take on this question too. However I do see that Rev 3:10 is trial - peirasmos: an experiment, a trial, temptation This should not be confused with orge - which is wrath (God's) or thlipsis - tribulation The next verses should be added to v.10 and in context we have to ask a few questions If v.10 was a rapture verse, why do the next two admonish to hold fast? to what are those He admonishes holding to? Certainly not the things of this world. Then in v 12 what are those who are holding fast overcoming? Is it possible He will preserve the faithful church from the hour of testing supernaturally? Look back Zep 2:2 - could it be that hiding is preservation as in Goshen? |
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Post by venge on Oct 28, 2020 10:44:13 GMT -6
If I understand right, mid-trib rapture is before God's wrath is poured out. Which I see as scripturally supported: 1 Thes 5:9, Rev 3:10, I think there is another one maybe in 2 Thes? But what about for post-trib? What do you do with those verses if the rapture is at the end? All of them place a rapture and resurrection of the dead before wrath. The difference is what is defined as God’s wrath. This is where we differ from Pre TB as they believe they are removed before persecution. But “thlipsis” is never God’s wrath. This is one of the main reasons why Mid, Post and Pre wrath all agree against Pre TBs placement. Wrath could be “Orge” and is definitely “thumos”. Another factor is what does scripture say happens in relation to the day of the Lord. Joel confirms the sun, moon and stars are darkened before the DotL. This event is agreed on by Pre wrath and Post trib. Not sure on Mid. Also, the DotL is near the harvest. The harvest in Revelation is past the seals and in the trumpets. Another is the DotL is near the wedding supper when he bids his guests. That in ch.19 is after Christ reigns and his bride makes herself ready. Both happen After Babylon falls. |
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Post by Natalie on Oct 28, 2020 10:45:15 GMT -6
Ok, thanks, Mike. I also had the thought that maybe they see it as a supernatural protection against His wrath. Post-trib is the one I just have a hard time grasping how it's possible. Pre-trib, pre-wrath, mid-trib... those I kinda get. What do you do with John 14:1-6 and post-trib? |
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Post by Natalie on Oct 28, 2020 10:47:36 GMT -6
venge, maybe I just don't understand the timing for post-trib. To me, the name seems to say that it is after everything - after Daniel's 70th week (which people like to call The Tribulation Period). So, wouldn't that also be after God's wrath? I guess I need someone to explain the view to me better.
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- Venge may have a take on this question too.