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Post by venge on Oct 29, 2020 7:14:49 GMT -6
mike , you must try the food.  venge , I love your rainbow analysis. How do you see the 7 day warning that Noah received in relation to our current time? , Great question! We know the Lord said it would be "LIKE" the days of Noah. Let me explain something that I believe is misunderstood. Pre-TB uses Noah as an example of his removal for 7 days from the rain and thereby we must be removed for 7 years. But is this what the text actually says? Noah enters the ark the selfsame day it began to rain. Not 7 days before. So how do we get the 7 days before idea? I will explain that. God tells Noah is will rain in 7 days. He had just finished telling him what he needed him to do in that time. Noah had 7 days to prepare and get God's work done. We learn that after God gave him the warning of "he has 7 days till it begins to rain", we see the following: Noah began to do the work God commanded him to do by getting all the animals in the ark. Noah went in ...WHEN? When the flood waters were upon the earth...not when it was dry outside, 7 days before (during the preparation). And that is when we get to this: Noah enters the ark with his family the same day it began to rain and the waters were upon the earth. The 7 days warning by God was his preparation to get the animals inside and complete his job. But, Christ also uses the idea the same thing happened to Lot. If the example was used, it must be identical to Noah. Noah cannot be 7 days before and Lot the same day. Lets look at Lot then: Lot left Sodom and eventually headed toward a neighboring city of Zoar. This is not a 7 days trek. From when he left Sodom, the Sun hadnt even risen yet. Lot left Sodom and in the same day (remember Jewish days span over the night into the morning) entered Zoar and then it rained brimstone. An exact comparison to Noah. The implication is we are still removed from wrath, but it is immediate. Think about the word Harpazo. Its a snatching out, or pulling out of a fire. Ever see a building on fire and someone grabs you violently and pulls you out to save your life. That is a similar meaning. It is quick and can be forceful. And to be honest, the idea can be shown in Pre-TB or Post TB. Either way, we are still removed immediately before wrath, on the day it comes. But the idea that we use Noah as being removed for 7 years before doesnt fit the story. Cambridge study says: |
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Post by mike on Oct 29, 2020 7:24:24 GMT -6
Not to diverge off topic but it is happening because of the condition (of the heart) of mankind. Romans 1:18 among other verses shows us how these hold the truth in unrighteousness. They (who refuse Christ) love this present evil age. I could rant but Im sure get it. Should we be surprised since the Lord is at hand? Anathema, Marantha!
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ksteven
Layman
Posts: 58
Favorite Verse: Philippians 4:6-7
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Post by ksteven on Oct 29, 2020 8:22:44 GMT -6
venge, mike, I greatly appreciate your time and thoroughness on this. Though I pray for my family to be gone before the Great Tribulation, I have always had to rely on others to justify it. To be honest, I have always read the scriptures (straight forward) as you are describing them. It takes more types/shadows/and symbolism to clarify Pre-trib than mid-trib or pre-wrath. I do have a question on your take about this verse. I was reading through Revelation for the umpteenth time, and going between versions (as I will often to), when I noticed the translation difference between many versions (I will only show the 2, as they cover the feel of most others). Version 1. Rev 13:10 (LSV) 10 if anyone [goes] into captivity, into captivity he goes; if anyone is to be killed with sword, it is necessary of him by sword to be killed; here is the endurance and the faith of the holy ones. Version 2.
Rev 13:10 (KJV)
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.In regard to who it speaks of, these two version imply different things entirely. Version 1 would seem to be the justified church, as it shadows Christ (destined to captivity/ destined to die, by will of the Father, but without guilt) implies the endurance and faith of the holy ones (or saints) is that of Christ. Version 2 would seem to be those not covered by grace. (take captive, be captive/ Kill by sword, be killed by sword), which is a shadow of the law. The saints (justified church) would not put their faith and endurance in the law, or crime and punishment. A martyr does not die for breaking the law, but is killed for Christ's righteousness. Any thoughts?
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Post by mike on Oct 29, 2020 9:22:06 GMT -6
ksteven
In the context it written it would appear to me regarding those who follow and worship the beast
I believe there is a tie in to this from Dan 11
Further in Daniel 7
I would lean more towards what you pose in the understanding of LSV version
A resource I sometimes review is in Bible Hub, Commentary. You can glean from there to see what scholars have presented on these verses in times past. I like Albert Barnes Notes. Not that his are perfect but they add perspective I may not have.
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ksteven
Layman
Posts: 58
Favorite Verse: Philippians 4:6-7
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Post by ksteven on Oct 29, 2020 9:40:54 GMT -6
ksteven In the context it written it would appear to me regarding those who follow and worship the beast I believe there is a tie in to this from Dan 11 Further in Daniel 7 I would lean more towards what you pose in the understanding of LSV version A resource I sometimes review is in Bible Hub, Commentary. You can glean from there to see what scholars have presented on these verses in times past. I like Albert Barnes Notes. Not that his are perfect but they add perspective I may not have. , I would see the LSV meaning to make more sense in context, as it seems to be talking about the fate of those who REFUSE to worship the beast. Unless it is saying (of those who take captive the saint, and those who kill the saints), this will be their fate as a result (as they are un the law), and this is the endurance and faith of the saints (that their deaths are avenged)? I will look into some of the other commentaries. It just seems odd that those two translations can have a a drastically different meaning, and yet both versions are widely used. |
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Post by stormyknight on Oct 29, 2020 9:52:18 GMT -6
venge , 'So what you're saying is...' (j/k) If it is like the days of Noah, then Noah's 7 days might be compared to the 7 years of Jacob's trouble or the GT or whatever. Meaning the snatching up would come at the end. We would then need a marker for the beginning. Could that have been the Rev. 12 sign? I would lean toward the two American Eclipses for the 7 years, but that is just pointed at the U.S. not the whole world. Maybe the first eclipse was to awaken people to the sign(I'm sure more than just Americans noticed all the flags of the first eclipse, 33rd state/33parallel, 7 Salems, etc.) and since the U.S. is the biggest Christian Gentile nation, it was to get those Christians that notice to get as many others as possible on to the 'ark'? If that is the case then the first 3 1/2 years are almost up and big show is about to start.
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Post by venge on Oct 29, 2020 14:02:47 GMT -6
venge , mike , I greatly appreciate your time and thoroughness on this. Though I pray for my family to be gone before the Great Tribulation, I have always had to rely on others to justify it. To be honest, I have always read the scriptures (straight forward) as you are describing them. It takes more types/shadows/and symbolism to clarify Pre-trib than mid-trib or pre-wrath. I do have a question on your take about this verse. I was reading through Revelation for the umpteenth time, and going between versions (as I will often to), when I noticed the translation difference between many versions (I will only show the 2, as they cover the feel of most others). Version 1. Rev 13:10 (LSV) 10 if anyone [goes] into captivity, into captivity he goes; if anyone is to be killed with sword, it is necessary of him by sword to be killed; here is the endurance and the faith of the holy ones. Version 2.
Rev 13:10 (KJV)
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.In regard to who it speaks of, these two version imply different things entirely. Version 1 would seem to be the justified church, as it shadows Christ (destined to captivity/ destined to die, by will of the Father, but without guilt) implies the endurance and faith of the holy ones (or saints) is that of Christ. Version 2 would seem to be those not covered by grace. (take captive, be captive/ Kill by sword, be killed by sword), which is a shadow of the law. The saints (justified church) would not put their faith and endurance in the law, or crime and punishment. A martyr does not die for breaking the law, but is killed for Christ's righteousness. Any thoughts? , mike, had a good reply with this. But let me add something that some here might forget about. The first thing that comes to my mind is when Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon came against Israel. If you remember the warning from the prophet, he instructed the King of Israel and its people to give themselves over to Nebuchadnezzar because it was God's will. He had said if you go into captivity, you will go but you will LIVE. If you stay in Jerusalem, you are disobeying God...though you may fight...you will die by the sword, pestilence and famine. Those that stayed did die and those that volunteered to go to Babylon lived. We have a future Babylon that people live in today. Will we depart from her to live? Or will we stay with her and suffer God's plagues? That is how I see it. It doesnt make it the correct answer...but definitely how I see it. |
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Post by venge on Oct 29, 2020 14:10:45 GMT -6
venge , 'So what you're saying is...' (j/k) If it is like the days of Noah, then Noah's 7 days might be compared to the 7 years of Jacob's trouble or the GT or whatever. Meaning the snatching up would come at the end. We would then need a marker for the beginning. Could that have been the Rev. 12 sign? I would lean toward the two American Eclipses for the 7 years, but that is just pointed at the U.S. not the whole world. Maybe the first eclipse was to awaken people to the sign(I'm sure more than just Americans noticed all the flags of the first eclipse, 33rd state/33parallel, 7 Salems, etc.) and since the U.S. is the biggest Christian Gentile nation, it was to get those Christians that notice to get as many others as possible on to the 'ark'? If that is the case then the first 3 1/2 years are almost up and big show is about to start. , Honestly, I don't follow or believe in the Rev 12 sign that many do on this site. So to answer your question, I don't believe so from my perspective. But, if the 7 days preparation was linked to a 7 year week, and in that 7 year week we were to get God's people into the ark...that makes sense. But I believe the future time we are looking at is only 3.5 years and not the full 7. ATM, I believe 3.5 already has been past possibly when Christ walked the earth. Again, I am not emphatic on this and can change...but it is what I hold to right now. Regardless, the time of the week whether 3.5 or 7 years still could apply because we are told: |
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Post by Natalie on Oct 29, 2020 14:58:20 GMT -6
This was in my reading for today: God speaking to Israel, Isaiah 54:7-10 For a brief moment I deserted you, but with great compassion I will gather you. In overflowing anger for a moment I hid my face from you, but with everlasting love I will have compassion on you," says the LORD, your Redeemer.
This is like the days of Noah to Me: as I swore that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth, so I have sworn that I will not be angry with you, and will not rebuke you. For the mountains may depart and the hills be removed, but My steadfast love shall not depart from you, and my covenant of peace shall not be removed,: says the LORD, who has compassion on you. I just thought of this thread and the mention of the days of Noah because I had not realized that the phrase "the days of Noah" was mentioned elsewhere. I am not sure that it adds much to the discussion only that it shows that God will not forget His people. He will fulfill His promises to the Jewish people (which means we can trust that He will also fulfill His promises to us believers). |
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Post by mike on Nov 5, 2020 19:39:14 GMT -6
Moved from another thread... sog said |
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Post by yardstick on Nov 5, 2020 20:02:23 GMT -6
The notion I have been pondering lately is 'How will the Man of Sin be revealed'?
The only blatantly obvious scriptural reference I have been able to find to answer that question is the AoD...
In that context, the Man of Sin is most certainly revealed. To everyone. Whether or not a person recognizes the act the way we do.
It occurs to me that the timing of that event does not preclude a pre-trib harpazo view. Nor a mid-trib. Nor a pre-wrath (if we define wrath as the Great Tribulation).
If the 'wrath' that believers are to be saved from by harpazo is defined as that portion of the Tribulation referred to as the Great Tribulation; then I believe such a notion also does not preclude a pre-trib, mid-trib or pre-wrath view.
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Post by mike on Nov 5, 2020 20:11:15 GMT -6
The spirit of antichrist is obvious. Its soooooo all around us. Check the box for the unfortunate masses that will follow him when he is revealed. Judas did not have satan enter him until the last moment possible. As the prototype for the AC we shouldn't expect to know until it happens
John 13:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. 21 When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me. 22 Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake. 23 Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved. 24 Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake. 25 He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it? 26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
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Post by mike on Nov 5, 2020 20:26:39 GMT -6
Stick something Ive been pondering is multiple fulfilling views. How do I explain what I mean in a post...
I am currently seeing a rapture that takes place after the 6th seal, but before the 7th. Not locked in, just seeing that at this moment. it could be later but I am fairly sure wrath begins at this point and we are spared from wrath.
We debate this and that but I am starting to see it coming to pass from all the angles we often quabble about. Like "stars" falling and earth quaking. Yes these are both happening literally, spiritually, poetically. Earthquakes are physical and in the day of Christ they also were politcal upheavals. Its not this or that exclusively, its all of the above.
Someplaces on earth wont experience what others do and vice versa. Notice the corona crisis has zero effect on the 45 million in Africa. Only 100 dead. No distancing, no masks. Why? Well their plague is locusts, our is corona. Not saying there arent other things but we all dont have all of the warnings in all places at the same times during the tribulation. Jacobs trouble is coming and so is persecution on the body! Its already happening in Africa, Iran, China, our turn is coming
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Post by mike on Nov 5, 2020 20:33:52 GMT -6
sog said My understanding is that the pre trib rapture was not discussed until 1830s with Darby. The early church fathers were of the understanding that we would not suffer Gods wrath. Polycarp was a disciple of John and taught (basically) pre-wrath
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Post by venge on Nov 6, 2020 13:38:05 GMT -6
sog said My understanding is that the pre trib rapture was not discussed until 1830s with Darby. The early church fathers were of the understanding that we would not suffer Gods wrath. Polycarp was a disciple of John and taught (basically) pre-wrath Some also say Polycarp was Post-TB. Either way, he and his generation believed the church would go through persecution and see the man of sin. Just for extra... Polycarp was also Pre Millennial. Sorry Amillennialist out there...  |
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