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Post by mike on Nov 11, 2020 12:39:42 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirl I have considered aspects of this too. One thing I would like to explore further but perhaps in another thread is the bookends of the bible. The end from the beginning. I am somewhat persuaded that if there are 'humans' left after the Trib...there could certainly be albeit a few, that the earth is going to be pretty much destroyed. Is it possible or even likely to a point where those who are mortal have access to the tree of life and live for the 1000 years? Adam, Noah, Methuselah all well over 900 years old. Can that happen again once sin is purged? Would those who re-populate the earth at that time be deceived again? My mom used to say "when I see Adam I am going to kick him" to which I used to reply "If he didnt do it, I probably would have" - she changed her view on that  EDIT - Look at the 'bookends' who is our example of the first rapture Gen 5:24 and after the first rapture of that righteous person who lived almost 1000 yrs Gen 5:27
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Post by venge on Nov 12, 2020 9:25:40 GMT -6
It seems to mean we are focused on when the rapture comes, not when Christ comes. For when he comes, we are raptured. So then, when does Christ come? What do the scriptures say? So when is the end? It surely cannot be 7 years before as Pre-Tb says. According to the book of John, it happens on the last day. The end must happen after the heavens are no more. We cannot be changed till then and that must be concurrent with Christ appearing. Endure to the end? What do we endure but tribulations according to Paul. So the rapture happens when Christ appears at the end after we endure troubles and it happens on the last day. Is the 6th seal the last day? We surely went through troubles by then. Christ coming in his Kingdom relates to his rewarding us with immortality. So, when does Christ Kingdom come? rt when does Christ Kingdom come so that we know when he appears and rewards us? |
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Post by venge on Nov 12, 2020 13:19:30 GMT -6
rt Would also like to ask something else. In Daniel 7, Daniel identifies seeing the little horn that comes up. Next, Daniel says as he continues watching...he goes on to describe a sequence of events. Specifically, I want to call to attention the court convened and the books are opened. This is what I want to ask you...what does it mean to you that the books are opened? For me, its judgment for the righteous and the wicked. For the righteous, life eternal, for the wicked...they will be destroyed and removed from his Kingdom. Now look at the next passage. This verse parallels Revelation 19 below: This would show the books are opened and the court convened BEFORE the defeat of the beast and the false prophet in Rev 19:20. So, since that event takes place AFTER the man of sin is around but before he dies, how do you understand that? For me, its obvious its our bema and reward. This is not the Great White Throne judgment, but at the beginning of his Millennial Kingdom. Now, the only time judgement for us and reward are listed is at the 7th Trumpet which says: And that happens at Christ reign which parallels Rev 19:6-8 which is right before the event in Rev 19:20
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Post by rt on Nov 15, 2020 14:45:15 GMT -6
Hey venge, I just spent over an hour writing a reply and the power went out for a millisecond and I lost it all! Arg!!!!! Very frustrating, now I don't have the time to retype it all. I will try as time allows. God bless you RT |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Nov 15, 2020 22:53:09 GMT -6
rt , that is sooooo frustrating. UGH! I know this is a post-trib thread, but.... just reading the shout box here Nov 15, and breitbart namely and a few other places, can we just all agree to set pre-trib aside now and move ahead to the next understanding? Lock downs again?! aside from lies rampant, and really weird things going on overseas to the east of us.. just askin' ...aside from the rapture, what was to make pre-trib, PRE? Pre to what? what IS the indicator that we should move on from PRE? what will be the thing, you know, the thing that says to the pre-tribber, well, ok, so maybe mid? Are we asking the right questions here in this thread? Are we understanding the right 3.5 time frame? ok, rt, sorry. I am not expecting anyone to answer my questions.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2020 0:50:41 GMT -6
rt , that is sooooo frustrating. UGH! I know this is a post-trib thread, but.... just reading the shout box here Nov 15, and breitbart namely and a few other places, can we just all agree to set pre-trib aside now and move ahead to the next understanding? Lock downs again?! aside from lies rampant, and really weird things going on overseas to the east of us.. just askin' ...aside from the rapture, what was to make pre-trib, PRE? Pre to what? what IS the indicator that we should move on from PRE? what will be the thing, you know, the thing that says to the pre-tribber, well, ok, so maybe mid? Are we asking the right questions here in this thread? Are we understanding the right 3.5 time frame? ok, rt, sorry. I am not expecting anyone to answer my questions. So, a covenant is confirmed with many, and a star rises in politics that everyone loves. If we are still here. then that means that the spirit within us is NOT the Restrainer and that we are not what keeps the AC in the shadows. That would be my first clue. So far, that hasn't happened. But that's what kicks off the Tribulation. The AOD is what kicks off the Great Tribulation. So being here for that would make us look to pre-wrath. But I don't think we are there to doubt the Pre-trib Rapture. I suspect it may not come on a Feast Day. It will come when the fulfillment of Gentiles occurs, whenever that is. |
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Post by Natalie on Nov 16, 2020 8:21:35 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirl, - along with what boymaker posted, I am keeping an eye on Israel also. If things start happening there...a Temple being built, two guys standing in the streets preaching and drawing world wide attention...then I will be willing to set aside pre-trib.  I personally think that there will be something big that is undeniably God's doing that will be the signal that the 70th week has kicked off. Either that or He will send the two witnesses. Israel and the Jews will be the focus.
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Post by mike on Nov 16, 2020 8:29:50 GMT -6
rt , that is sooooo frustrating. UGH! I know this is a post-trib thread, but.... just reading the shout box here Nov 15, and breitbart namely and a few other places, can we just all agree to set pre-trib aside now and move ahead to the next understanding? Lock downs again?! aside from lies rampant, and really weird things going on overseas to the east of us.. just askin' ...aside from the rapture, what was to make pre-trib, PRE? Pre to what? what IS the indicator that we should move on from PRE? what will be the thing, you know, the thing that says to the pre-tribber, well, ok, so maybe mid? Are we asking the right questions here in this thread? Are we understanding the right 3.5 time frame? ok, rt, sorry. I am not expecting anyone to answer my questions. BSG - was the first part of the post a mini-rant?  I know sometimes that happens I am following you on the second portion though. My understanding is pre-trib = before the tribulation = tribulation is the time of Jacobs trouble = 70th week of Daniel. Again this is my understanding that the pre-trib understanding is that the rapture begins the 70th week, which will commence the time of Jacobs trouble. That is just how I understand it in a very broad sense, less many details and other scriptures. However I have had similar questions...like...what if we heard and 'saw' a man sitting where he ought not, claiming to be god? Would we still be looking for the rapture to happen then a certain amount of years? I would hope not. |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Nov 16, 2020 9:17:10 GMT -6
boymaker, Natalie, thank you for your answers. rt , that is sooooo frustrating. UGH! I know this is a post-trib thread, but.... just reading the shout box here Nov 15, and breitbart namely and a few other places, can we just all agree to set pre-trib aside now and move ahead to the next understanding? Lock downs again?! aside from lies rampant, and really weird things going on overseas to the east of us.. just askin' ...aside from the rapture, what was to make pre-trib, PRE? Pre to what? what IS the indicator that we should move on from PRE? what will be the thing, you know, the thing that says to the pre-tribber, well, ok, so maybe mid? Are we asking the right questions here in this thread? Are we understanding the right 3.5 time frame? ok, rt, sorry. I am not expecting anyone to answer my questions. BSG - was the first part of the post a mini-rant? I know sometimes that happens I am following you on the second portion though. My understanding is pre-trib = before the tribulation = tribulation is the time of Jacobs trouble = 70th week of Daniel. Again this is my understanding that the pre-trib understanding is that the rapture begins the 70th week, which will commence the time of Jacobs trouble. That is just how I understand it in a very broad sense, less many details and other scriptures. However I have had similar questions...like...what if we heard and 'saw' a man sitting where he ought not, claiming to be god? Would we still be looking for the rapture to happen then a certain amount of years? I would hope not. mike, mini-rant... maybe HA! so what you and nat an boymaker posted, regarding 70th week.. Isnt what the marker is, is something that happens IN THE MIDST? boymaker said this: The AOD is what kicks off the Great Tribulation. So being here for that would make us look to pre-wrath. what do people see as THE aod? Just getting clarification as I kinda know, but I want to be sure people are saying the same thing when it comes to AoD..
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Post by mike on Nov 16, 2020 9:17:22 GMT -6
boymakerNatalieI would like to just make a few points and disagree with this statement a bit. Perhaps the post was a quick summary of thoughts to which I am responding but I would like to add some detail as to what my dissent is about. 1. the covenant with many - we really can debate this until the Lord returns and actually shows us. Some feel the covenant has already been strengthened in that the lining up of Sunni Muslim states aligning with modern day Israel is a covenant with many and that covenant will be broken in the midst of the week. A point with this is that we are sure if this was the covenant or not. I for one am not thinking there will be some other new covenant with many, although this may be its foundation. While that is a possibility, it could be altered to some degree of breaking soon or perhaps a few short years from now. Either way I dont think we can certain on this until we are able to look back at it. But I do keep this activity in the middle east in sight as a possibility of the covenant given the other strong prophetic signals we see in the world today. 2. a star rises in politics that everyone loves - this is not exactly accurate. Daniel 11 includes battles of the king of the north & king of the south in battle. The end time 'king' is not loved by everyone, he is a tyrant that some will trust in and other will resist! There are other scriptural references regarding this as well. I will check and add later as needed. But I wanted to make the point that not everyone loves satan incarnate 3. the spirit within us is NOT the Restrainer - while this is a possibility in a pre-trib view, it is not explicitly correct to apply 'all or nothing' to the ministry of the Holy Spirit. Mysteries revealed aside, there is nothing 'new' in the new testament. The NT is the OT revealed. the OT is the NT concealed. Once the age of grace ends (put the pre-trib thought process aside for the moment) the ministry of the Spirit of God reverts back to the way He once did before the age of grace, with signs, wonders and miracles. We see that happening in Revelation especially through the two witnesses. Two examples among many that we are able to peer back into the OT and view the established pattern with Moses & Jannes/Jambres and Elijah and prophets of Ba'al. The false prophet will perform counterfeit miracles just as these did, but they are of course no match for the power of the King of kings working through His servants. While the ministry of the Holy Spirit changes from restraining, it does not explicitly equate to the church being removed from earth. In fact quite the opposite! In the OT those who were loudest and endued with power were those persecuted and killed for the Lord. They were not whisked away being kept from anything, they were tortured and martyred! But they also ministered with great power! Then why did He say this to them after already promising of & telling them to receive the Holy Spirit?? Two ministries of the same Spirit. The disciples received the Holy Spirit inside, being born again and had to wait 50 days so prophecy could be fulfilled before being endued with power. Is it possible that this happens again but in reverse?
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Post by mike on Nov 16, 2020 9:25:04 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirl as I am currently seeing it the AoD is two-fold. 1. the hearts of the unfaithful church are accepting and/or have already accepted many abominations. Save for the remnant the body would be fully cancerous 2. the AoD will be completely fulfilled when embodiment of the man of sin occurs and those outside the 'church' and within accept their new savior It is not exclusively one or the other, it is encompassing. There have multiple foreshadows fulfilling this, just not completely. There is a pattern to all prophecy. types of Christ, types of anti-christ and so on through history.
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I know sometimes that happens