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Post by venge on Oct 28, 2020 10:49:19 GMT -6
If I understand right, mid-trib rapture is before God's wrath is poured out. Which I see as scripturally supported: 1 Thes 5:9, Rev 3:10, I think there is another one maybe in 2 Thes? But what about for post-trib? What do you do with those verses if the rapture is at the end? 1 Thes 5:9 tells us the believer wont experience Gods wrath. So specifically I would say that the concept of 'post-trib' would have to mean the rapture would at the day of the Lord. Meaning the day of the Lord would equate to the final day (24 hours) of the entirety of the tribulation. But I am saving some other info for further in the thread  - Venge may have a take on this question too. However I do see that Rev 3:10 is trial - peirasmos: an experiment, a trial, temptation This should not be confused with orge - which is wrath (God's) or thlipsis - tribulation The next verses should be added to v.10 and in context we have to ask a few questions If v.10 was a rapture verse, why do the next two admonish to hold fast? to what are those He admonishes holding to? Certainly not the things of this world. Then in v 12 what are those who are holding fast overcoming? Is it possible He will preserve the faithful church from the hour of testing supernaturally? Look back Zep 2:2 - could it be that hiding is preservation as in Goshen? Agreed on vs 10. Those in that church are not tempted by what occurs on the world. It is not a rapture verse. The other churches have weaknesses they need to address in order to overcome. This is the hour of tempting that comes during this time. It is Lots wife looking back. It’s the Israelite who took the accursed thing from Jericho and his it. And it’s those merchants who cry and wail because Babylon falls. |
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Post by Natalie on Oct 28, 2020 10:51:09 GMT -6
And to clarify my pre-trib postion - I believe we are raptured prior to Daniel's 70th week. Persecution could definitely come before that, most likely will. It has been increasing world wide. I do not believe that the rapture keeps us from persecution; I believe it keeps us from the judgments of the 70th week, for the finishing up of Israel's history and the judgment of the nations of this earth. Jer 30:11
I wish people wouldn't call it The Tribulation. It can cause confusion, at least I think so. |
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Post by stormyknight on Oct 28, 2020 11:07:51 GMT -6
I don't say any of this to disagree. I am still unsure where I stand. Understand my pain in these debates and discussions come from my station as a father. I have a 3 year old daughter in what is clearly the nearing time of Troubles. Excluding rapture, I have the probable death of my wife and child to look forward to. My own life is nothing, but it terrifies me to think that her brief time this side of eternity will be mostly suffering, and an unlikely rescue. Of course there is the blessed hope of seeing her again beside Christ, and that is the hope of all who have lost. I will be reading and praying and hope to hear more. I hear you, ksteven, my wife and I are pretty much raising my 10 month old grandson. My daughter works nights, so she only sees him for a few hours while my wife works part time during the day. It hurts my heart to anticipate the trouble coming on the world. I pray that Jesus will protect my grandson from harm or give me the strength to do so. While I'm not sure when we will be 'snatched up', I do believe Jesus will come and get us: "Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut your doors behind you. Hide yourselves a little while until the wrath has passed." Isa. 26:20 I don't know if this verse is telling us to hide in our literal houses or in the "rooms prepared" for us. But, I do know His wrath is with all the nations, not just Israel. "The LORD is angry with all the nations and furious with all their armies. He will devote them to destruction; He will give them over to slaughter." Isa. 34:2
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Post by mike on Oct 28, 2020 11:10:57 GMT -6
Ok, thanks, Mike. I also had the thought that maybe they see it as a supernatural protection against His wrath. Post-trib is the one I just have a hard time grasping how it's possible. Pre-trib, pre-wrath, mid-trib... those I kinda get.  What do you do with John 14:1-6 and post-trib? I'm not sure I understand the John 14 reference. For me, personally...when I remove the thought of living until the rapture happens, many verses have a new view to me. Sure Jesus went to prepare a place for me, you and others. When & how we get there is not really material. If through rapture or death & resurrection either way we get to that same place. EDIT - Natalie - I just looked at this a little more and found that the word for taken in Matt 24:40 is the same as John 14:3, but in v 39 took is not the same |
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Post by venge on Oct 28, 2020 11:32:01 GMT -6
venge , maybe I just don't understand the timing for post-trib. To me, the name seems to say that it is after everything - after Daniel's 70th week (which people like to call The Tribulation Period). So, wouldn't that also be after God's wrath? I guess I need someone to explain the view to me better. I don't consider myself Post Trib, but there are parts of Post Trib and Pre Wrath I agree with and other parts I disagree with. Post TB is after the tribulation, just like Pre Wrath. Both follow Matthew 24...Immediately after the tribulation...followed by the 6th seal events. Pre Wrath puts the rapture after the 6th seal. Post Trib puts the rapture at the 7th Trumpet although some others say it will happen before Armageddon. Depends on who you talk to lol. Both agree (post and Pre wrath) the rapture and the return of the Lord are 1 event. Most early church fathers believed in a Post TB (they we go through tribulation and afterward Christ comes)...that is not to say they were right. Just that many back then believed it. I believe to truly understand what is God's wrath, we need to utilize the words "thlipsis", "ogre", "thumos" and realize what is and what it not his wrath. We also need to look at scripture to help us identify the DotL. I think looking at Revelation 6-19 and thinking...this is a terrible time, there is no way we go through this, is using our own thoughts in opposition to what scripture says. I had asked ksteven, about Matthew 16:28 Specifically, will not taste of death till they see Christ coming in his Kingdom. That phrase, "will not taste of death" is from our victory over death. Our change into immortality. Those he was talking to would not get their victory over death/immortality/the crown till they see Christ coming in his Kingdom. We see this in 1 Cor 15 This change to immortality is at Christ appearing and his Kingdom. Paul backs this up in 2 Tim 4:1 So, when Does Christ Kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven? When he begins to reign in His Kingdom on earth, there is a link to our change. We also have to think about things said as in the resurrection happening at the last day. We also have Job 14:12 When are the heavens no more? The earliest sign of this is at the 6th seal, not in ch. 4-5. When the heavens are rolled away like a scroll. There cannot be a resurrection/rapture before this. This same event of Christ reign and the heavens being removed is in Matthew 24. This is what Job is mentioning. We cannot be resurrected till AFTER this event. And in Matthew 24 what follows verse 29 is this: His appearing is him coming to claim his Kingdom on earth. This coincides with Rev 11 and Rev 19. Now, let me go back to what mike, was saying. To understand the DotL, God's wrath..we need to look at placement. Acts is taken from Joel. Both the point is above. Now look at the 6th seal below. That puts everything before the 6th seal as not wrath. But "thlipsis" which is tribulation/persecution. Christ says in Matthew 24 he comes AFTER the tribulation which backs up the 6th seal event and Acts 2:20 Now look at Joel 3:13-14 The DotL is near..some translations put "at hand" the harvest of the earth. So when is the harvest so we can figure out when the wrath will be? According to Revelation 14, its after Babylon falls and after the mark is set up. So according to Joel and Revelation, we go through those 2 events in Rev 14. Now look at this passage. The DotL is near or "at hand" when he bids his guests to the wedding supper. According to Rev 19, that also happens after Babylon falls and after Christ begins to reign. There is no discrepancy between any of this. Forget rapture placement and what you know for a minute and just look into what does scripture say happens before, after or near the DotL. Then look at every single verse about what happens when Christ begins to reign or he comes into his Kingdom on earth. Then ask yourself, when is the last day? |
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Post by venge on Oct 28, 2020 11:41:19 GMT -6
Ok, thanks, Mike. I also had the thought that maybe they see it as a supernatural protection against His wrath. Post-trib is the one I just have a hard time grasping how it's possible. Pre-trib, pre-wrath, mid-trib... those I kinda get. What do you do with John 14:1-6 and post-trib? I'm not sure I understand the John 14 reference. For me, personally...when I remove the thought of living until the rapture happens, many verses have a new view to me. Sure Jesus went to prepare a place for me, you and others. When & how we get there is not really material. If through rapture or death & resurrection either way we get to that same place. We are called to be a Kingdom of Priests on earth. We are also to be reigning with Christ on earth. Christ going to prepare a place for us is the millennial Kingdom. His father's house has many mansions is another way of saying there is room for everyone. Many mansions or abodes denotes unlimited space. He wants to save all people. If it were otherwise, it would hurt his testimony and physical dwellings was not what he intended for Christ himself told us about the corruption of materials things. Our rewards are different then man's minds - like living in a mansion. |
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Post by venge on Oct 28, 2020 11:58:07 GMT -6
Natalie , I want you to follow along with me, if possible. The original flood was God's wrath. In Genesis 9:13-15, God honors the covenant with the seed of Noah by giving us a sign of his promise, that whenever we see it – we know what its meaning is. The bow isnt just a symbol of peace, it was the everlasting covenant for us that when we see it, we know we would be saved from the flood, his wrath. Now, I realize you know all this so whats my point? Why does the mighty angel in Rev 10 have a cloud and a rainbow over his head symbolizing the peace with us so that God's wrath wouldnt overtake us when he sees it? And this same angel is the one that blows the Trumpet that proclaims Christ to reign on earth. What could possibly be the reason for showing us the flood covenant that we are saved from his wrath at this point..right before the bowl judgments?
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Post by Natalie on Oct 28, 2020 12:21:39 GMT -6
venge , thank you for taking your time to explain. I understand the mid-trib and pre-wrath positions. It's the post-trib one that I am having trouble understanding. But I don't think you and I have the same view of what Post-Trib means. Here's what I have been taught about the different rapture positions:
Pre-Trib --> rapture before Daniel's 70th week Mid-Trib --> rapture happens in the middle of the 70th week before the time of Great Tribulation
Pre-Wrath --> rapture happens before God's wrath is poured out Post-Trib --> rapture happens at the end of the 70th week right before Jesus returns to earth
The first three all happen prior to the Wrath of God. The last one would happen after it.
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Post by mike on Oct 28, 2020 12:37:16 GMT -6
venge , thank you for taking your time to explain. I understand the mid-trib and pre-wrath positions. It's the post-trib one that I am having trouble understanding. But I don't think you and I have the same view of what Post-Trib means. Here's what I have been taught about the different rapture positions:
Pre-Trib --> rapture before Daniel's 70th week Mid-Trib --> rapture happens in the middle of the 70th week before the time of Great Tribulation
Pre-Wrath --> rapture happens before God's wrath is poured out Post-Trib --> rapture happens at the end of the 70th week right before Jesus returns to earth
The first three all happen prior to the Wrath of God. The last one would happen after it. In the post Trib I understand its possible that the trib ends at 1260 and the rapture occurs, but the next 30 days (1290) is Armageddon and wrath. Not sure. Havent studied that part too much yet Although it may extend to 1335 which could also explain the blessing given (to survivors?) Dan 12:11 And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed [is] he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. |
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Post by Natalie on Oct 28, 2020 12:41:34 GMT -6
Ok, thanks, Mike. I haven't studied it either because I just didn't see support for it in Scripture. At least my understanding of the timing didn't have Scripture support. By that, I see the wrath being poured out and then the Week ending with Jesus physically returning to Israel. So, a post trib rapture would be between the wrath and the return.
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Post by venge on Oct 28, 2020 15:28:21 GMT -6
venge , thank you for taking your time to explain. I understand the mid-trib and pre-wrath positions. It's the post-trib one that I am having trouble understanding. But I don't think you and I have the same view of what Post-Trib means. Here's what I have been taught about the different rapture positions:
Pre-Trib --> rapture before Daniel's 70th week Mid-Trib --> rapture happens in the middle of the 70th week before the time of Great Tribulation
Pre-Wrath --> rapture happens before God's wrath is poured out Post-Trib --> rapture happens at the end of the 70th week right before Jesus returns to earth
The first three all happen prior to the Wrath of God. The last one would happen after it.
, I see God's wrath in the millennial Kingdom. Not before it. This is because when he reigns on earth, his Kingdom has come. And in his Kingdom, we are told that he removes all workers of iniquity out of it. The good are told to come into the Kingdom prepared for them and the wicked are burned as tares. Think of Joshua. God gave them the Kingdom of Israel. They went in and removed out all the wicked. Because Christ begins to reign at the 7th Trumpet, I place the bowls in the millennial Kingdom. There are details I can go into if you'd like to show this. For me, I only see the hour of temptation which spans from "the cause of the 6th seal" to be opened, the 6th seal itself and the Trumpets. Post TB do not believe they go through wrath. But yes, they believe the rapture happens at the end of the week. I suppose I do to being we are raised on the last day. But, unlike Post TB, I do not follow a 7 yr period currently. I am more inline to say it is 3.5 years |
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Post by venge on Oct 28, 2020 16:05:34 GMT -6
ksteven, Let's look at some thing in Revelation about believers. I know Pre TB says these are tribulation saints, but if Pre TB is wrong, they arnt tribulation saints. They are us. Look at some scripture regarding this: If we were raptured 7 years before this, why is this message coming out now at the end of the week? But just prior to this the bride made herself recently ready... Now look at Daniel 11:33-35 which is similar to what we'd expect. In it, it ref.'s believers evangelizing others to save them before its too late. This is why many believe the Church has work to do in these times. Its not that the Church will be at fault in this time, or that the Church must suffer. The Church has a responsibility to save as many as possible. This is a time that temptation will be great, so we need to be strong enough to endure it that we can save others from it. We are already promised to be saved from his wrath, the others are not. But many look to this as "we need to get outta here." But doing so leaves everyone else to suffer. God appointed Ezekiel as a watchman. Listen to what the Lord says in Ezekiel 33:6 This is strong language and I am not saying it applies to us. But I am saying its important to understand how it is meant and how it affects the church at that time.
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Post by mike on Oct 28, 2020 18:18:18 GMT -6
Venge the way you lay that down sounds like what we are living through right now. The labor pains will continue to increase in intensity and frequency.
The thought of this (current condition of man) has my mind consumed with speaking Truth in Christ everywhere. I can see how persecution will increase, cuz I feel like I'm about to go John the baptitzer style minus the clothing and food choices 😊
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Post by boraddict on Oct 28, 2020 19:42:23 GMT -6
mike , you must try the food. venge , I love your rainbow analysis. How do you see the 7 day warning that Noah received in relation to our current time?
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Post by venge on Oct 29, 2020 6:53:39 GMT -6
Venge the way you lay that down sounds like what we are living through right now. The labor pains will continue to increase in intensity and frequency. The thought of this (current condition of man) has my mind consumed with speaking Truth in Christ everywhere. I can see how persecution will increase, cuz I feel like I'm about to go John the baptitzer style minus the clothing and food choices 😊 , I think every person out there, regardless if you are a Christian or not all agree... The last few years have gotten much worse across the world. Especially what we call civilized countries (Europe and the US) Riots, protesting, random attacks have gone WAY up. Last night there was an attack in France. 2 beheadings. Lawlessness will increase and we are seeing it on a scale that isnt just stealing from riots..but actual murder. And hate, the hate people are spewing is off the charts. There is so much anger built up and its all coming out. I watched a clip of a women throw a new puppy at a man like a brick that she was holding in her arms. The man who was accosted by the puppy decided to adopt it. But what is wrong with the women? It was a random stranger...he didnt know her. Then there was 3 Jewish men having solidarity with BLM movement. The BLM people there yelled at them and pushed them, tossing them out and called them the "Synagogue of Satan" to their faces. What is wrong with people? I immediately thought of the verse that says those who cry and call out for God to help, who cower and wonder why these things are happening..to mark them. The rest slay with the sword. I asked God why this is happening? It is very upsetting. |
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- Venge may have a take on this question too.
