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Post by mike on Nov 7, 2020 8:54:16 GMT -6
rtThanks for the question, not sure if to me or Bora. Yes those under the altar are believers and given white robes for their righteous acts Rev 19:8 it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.
Rev 7:14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.There are more that will be added to their number, until the resurrection. Linen represents purity, wool ours/flesh. This is why the priestly garments cannot have the two in a garment. Deut 22:11 Edit - Ok I reread it... Youre asking why the 24 elders are clothed in white. I'll get back to you shortly. Time to do some weekend chores while its nice out here in NJ
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Post by boraddict on Nov 7, 2020 10:31:59 GMT -6
One thing that I noticed about the white robes is that "the slain for the Savior and their testimony" in Rev. 6:9 were slain prior to the fifth seal; perhaps at the 4th seal. However, it was at the 5th seal that they received their white robes. Therefore, they had to wait some period of time between the 4th seal (?) and fifth seal to receive their robes. Please notice at Rev. 12:11 that some were engaged in the war (Rev. 12:7-9) and had died; yet, they were not given white robes. Please note that the Chapter 12 war is given as a type (the war in heaven) for the shadow (the war upon the earth). My proposal is that the ones having died for the Savior and their testimonies at Verse 12:11 are the same ones that are under the altar at Verse 6:9. This means that the war of Verses 12:7-9 took place in the 4th seal or before. Since these saints received their white robes in the 5th seal, then it is at the 5th seal that the marriage takes place (IMO) as shown in Rev. 19:7-8; suggesting that the Savior comes during the 5th seal. And it is then that the saints both dead and alive receive the white robes, then it may be the case that the saints live through the tribulation up to the 5th seal until the Savior arrives to give them the white robes. One problem is that Chapter 7 seems to show the 144,000 being gathered prior to the 5th seal. So it may be the case that the saints are gathered and engaged in warfare prior to the return of the Savior. Then, the Savior returns and they both the dead and living receive their white robes from the Savior at the marriage. Then, the Savior once again engages the enemy with his saints to be victorious (Rev. 19:19-21). Evidence supporting that the saints are engaged in warfare is Rev. 13:7 as well as Dan. 7:25. So it seems that the pre-trib rapture is a rapture that gathers saints on the earth so that they can defend themselves. If the above is correct, then the white robes have some association with warfare. Also, the white robes have an association with serving the Savior. Thus, those dead are given white robes to represent that they were serving the Savior at the time of their death and those living are given the white robes to represent that they are yet serving the Savior in putting down the beast. One more point, that the rapture was at Rev. 12:6 and then the war at Rev. 12:7-9 and then the statement that some saints had given their lives for their testimonies at Rev. 12:11. Then, at Rev. 12:14 we see another rapture. Therefore, the 1st (pre-trib) rapture is a gathering of saints for warfare and their dead do not receive their white robes; and, then the 2nd (mid trib) rapture is a gathering of saints to the marriage wherein both the dead and living receive their white robes. Again, the white robes seem to be showing those engaged in warfare against the beast. venge , please check my work above. Supporting evidence for the above is that the Verse 12:6 rapture secures the saints for 3.5 years during which the war of Verses 12:7-9 takes place. Afterwards, the Verse 12:14 rapture secures the saints for another 3.5 years during which the beast is put down as shown in Chapter 19. For the past several years I have maintained that there are 3 raptures the first of which is an exodus of saints. My theory is that they gather near Yellowstone; however, they may gather at several locations throughout the earth; perhaps 12 locations (?). However, they apparently defend themselves from the attacks of the beast. Then at the mid-point they are gathered to one large group and it from there they attack and put down the beast. Afterwards, the world is in complete rebellion to which the Savior ends life upon the earth but first takes saints from the earth. Three raptures and scripture supports all three. 1st rapture) Rev. 12:6, 18:4, 14:1-7 2nd rapture) Rev. 12:14, 19:9, 7:14, 14:13 3rd rapture) Rev. 15:2, 4:1, 11:12 |
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Post by venge on Nov 7, 2020 16:58:30 GMT -6
Problem is, the biggest time we hear about great persecution is Matthew 24. Christ says after that persecution... Daniel 12:1 links it to a resurrection Revelation 7 says these are from all over the world and they lived for Christ. So these are Christians that go through great tribulation. They arnt removed from it. And the answer is found in verse 14 Those that go through the great tribulation were from all nations, kindreds, tongues and peoples. So they are everyone and anyone. And they are were of faith in Christ. Now, we can do a word search for "thlipsis" versus "orge" or "thumos", but thlipsis is never God's wrath. If this is true, which I believe to be accurate beyond a doubt regardless of what theory one holds to, Matthew 24:29 proves that after the church is persecuted, Christ comes back to save his true church before his wrath on the world. Easily, Matthew 24 and Rev 7 share a link together. That doesnt make them concurrent with each other, but it shows that the event happens in both and that sometime after the persecution is the return of Christ; whether near it or a little ways off. The astral events show the DotL's wrath happens after it in Joel, not before it which would be great tribulation. So we have Joel and the definition of thlipsis for proof that God's wrath is not during that time. Do you make a distinction between those who are saved prior to a harpazo, versus those who are saved after? OR are you suggesting that all believers regardless of their date of salvation, who have not already passed (died) will be participating in the 7 year period inclusive of the Great Tribulation? From reviewing Matt 24, I do not believe it is chronological from top to bottom. I think it is topically grouped. By subject matter. I have seen a lot of this style in other prophecy. Revelation for example. Sorry, been very busy today. I believe scripture shows all believers at that time go through the great tribulation, but not God’s wrath which comes some time after. EDIT: I think if we seriously look at what tribulation is, we find it happens to believers, it makes us stronger, it grows the Church, its causes others to see us as true in the face of adversity and we are taking up our cross. I think looking at its definition will show it is not wrath. I think seals 1-4 are opened and are God's 4 sore judgments that are passed to Christ to use since he ascended. I think the 5th seal is also opened and is all those believers who have died since Stephen in Acts till its number is completed after the great tribulation. I think the 6th seal has not been opened. And when it is, it'll be after the great Tribulation and will move the world into the last 3.5 years from the start of the 6th seal to the ending of the 6th trumpet. When we talk about God's wrath, it is either "orge" or "thumos" only. Not tribulation which is "thlipsis". In regards to "orge", it is used in the end of the 6th seal as an example. But, atm, I dont take that as God's wrath on the world....why? if it is God's wrath? Well, God at that time is judging and having wrath on Babylon to avenge the 5th seal martyrs. He is not having wrath on the people for their sins. He even says to believers, come out of her my people...he is constantly trying to save others and he wouldnt do that if its his wrath on them. Rev 19, and multiple other places put the focus on Babylon's destruction that songs are sung and heaven rejoices. Yet when we get to "thumos", its Holy wrath. This is kind of the wrath is not like "Orge". The bowls are part of "thumos". But, in the bowls we find destruction on the beast armies, the man of sin, all workers of iniquity etc...as we would assume would be God's wrath. Yet, that is all "thumos" and not "Orge". So if we look at the definition, ask yourself, if "orge" is God's wrath, what in the 6th seal to the 6th Trumpet is the main focus? |
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Post by rt on Nov 9, 2020 8:43:21 GMT -6
rt Thanks for the question, not sure if to me or Bora. Yes those under the altar are believers and given white robes for their righteous acts Rev 19:8 it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.
Rev 7:14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.There are more that will be added to their number, until the resurrection. Linen represents purity, wool ours/flesh. This is why the priestly garments cannot have the two in a garment. Deut 22:11 Edit - Ok I reread it... Youre asking why the 24 elders are clothed in white. I'll get back to you shortly. Time to do some weekend chores while its nice out here in NJ , I wasn't directing the question to anyone in particular, thanks for your response. So from your answer I conclude that you assume that these martyrs are the tribulation saints, is that correct? If these are the tribulation saints, then who are they waiting for? When does their number get completed? When do the others who are to join their ranks get martyred? Who are they who are raised at the end of the tribulation who didn't take the mark of the beast? Are they the same group? Are there two resurrections for the tribulation saints? One earlier and one later??? Or is the 5th seal the same event depicted at the end of the Revelation? RT |
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Post by venge on Nov 9, 2020 9:43:21 GMT -6
rt Thanks for the question, not sure if to me or Bora. Yes those under the altar are believers and given white robes for their righteous acts Rev 19:8 it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.
Rev 7:14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.There are more that will be added to their number, until the resurrection. Linen represents purity, wool ours/flesh. This is why the priestly garments cannot have the two in a garment. Deut 22:11 Edit - Ok I reread it... Youre asking why the 24 elders are clothed in white. I'll get back to you shortly. Time to do some weekend chores while its nice out here in NJ , I wasn't directing the question to anyone in particular, thanks for your response. So from your answer I conclude that you assume that these martyrs are the tribulation saints, is that correct? If these are the tribulation saints, then who are they waiting for? When does their number get completed? When do the others who are to join their ranks get martyred? Who are they who are raised at the end of the tribulation who didn't take the mark of the beast? Are they the same group? Are there two resurrections for the tribulation saints? One earlier and one later??? Or is the 5th seal the same event depicted at the end of the Revelation? RT , I know that's for Mike, but for me, I think the " tribulation saints" are us. IMO, the full number of 5th seal martyred must be complete by the time God judges the whore and destroys Babylon. And I place that event in the first 4 Trumpets. But, we still have believers that are alive and remain. So, I am not implying we are outta here at that point. After Babylon falls, we learn of this: So, what if a man doesnt worship the image? He doesnt drink of God's wrath...thereby....this isnt God's wrath on man YET because verse 12 warns us: "Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them." --- is this literal death or spiritual death? Also, Rev 18:4 says: Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. So God's children still exist beyond the 1st Trumpet. I have a hard time understanding your one question asking who are raised at the end of the tribulation that didnt take the mark? I believe Matthew 24 says the end of the tribulation is before the 6th seal...yet the mark comes after the 6th seal...so that question seems confusing. I think the 5th seal people are shown under the alter of souls given white robes, but they have not received their glorified bodies yet. But those in Ch. 7 stand in the Lambs presence wearing robes. What changed from their location? The KJV reads "after this". After the 144k are sealed. Ok, when after this? Immediately or 1 week or 2 years later? We dont know. It is reasonable to think that the great multitude in heaven is after the 144k are sealed but we dont know how far after. It is possible it is much later. Rev 11 shows the 2 witnesses before the 7th trumpet, yet reading it we learn they dont come in the 6th Trumpet, but are actually there for all 42 months. Its just their death happens before the 7th trumpet. Same with Rev 14, 17, 18, 19 - they all fit in a timeline of the Trumpets somehow...I have my ideas where, which I wont go into detail for this. But my point is, same layout of the text is found elsewhere. It is possible Ch.7 is like these other chapters whereas the text is spanned throughout the period. Now, I know what I said earlier but let me ask, is it possible these were not killed? Them standing before the throne and having washed their robes doesnt always mean martyrdom. |
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Post by mike on Nov 9, 2020 10:08:38 GMT -6
rt I think I a poor job in my post leading you to conclude something I didnt intend to say. My take is that martyrs are martyrs regardless of when they were martyred. Whether back to Abel or to the last before the first resurrection, all are the same - killed for their witness and faithfulness to the King. I see only one resurrection for saints in the bible, the second is for unbelievers after the Millennium.
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Post by rt on Nov 9, 2020 15:13:49 GMT -6
rt I think I a poor job in my post leading you to conclude something I didnt intend to say. My take is that martyrs are martyrs regardless of when they were martyred. Whether back to Abel or to the last before the first resurrection, all are the same - killed for their witness and faithfulness to the King. I see only one resurrection for saints in the bible, the second is for unbelievers after the Millennium. Do you not believe there will be a rapture event that includes the dead in Christ (a resurrection) ? In addition a resurrection of the tribulation saints? That would be two resurrection events for the saints right? Or do you put the rapture and the resurrection event in Rev 20:4? Which occurs post trib? So you see the martyrs under the altar as all martyrs from throughout history? Including the tribulation saints? Also do you believe there will be mortals who live on earth during the millennium? If so wouldn't there be righteous living among them? When would they get resurrected? |
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Post by rt on Nov 9, 2020 15:23:16 GMT -6
venge , So am I correct in saying that you see the seals being removed throughout the 70th week concurrent with the trumpets and bowls? If so where would you place the opening of the fifth seal? I see that you believe the 5th seal martyrs' number is completed with the sounding of the 4 trumpets, which would mean that thier fellow servants and brethren would die as martyrs during that time. But when do you see the 5th seal removed. The effect of that seal is in fact that the martyrs recieve white robes and are told to rest a little while longer, the effect isn't actually the completion of their number, which happens afterward.
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Post by venge on Nov 9, 2020 16:11:27 GMT -6
Perhaps my explanation wasn’t clear.
My understanding is, when Christ rose from the dead and ascended to heaven, he receives the scroll upon entering heaven and opens seals 1-4 which are God’s 4 sore judgments he uses on the earth.
Christ is able to use them now because it is moving from one covenant to another. I think the 5th seal should be opened before the great tribulation. The alter of souls should house everyone from Stephen onward till they cry out asking God when will he avenge them. He asks them to wait a little longer...because I think the great T happens before the 6th seal..Is place the 5th seal opened then.
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Post by mike on Nov 11, 2020 7:50:43 GMT -6
rt asked: I believe the dead in Christ rise first, then those who are alive and remain follow those. I am not 100% certain of the amount of time between the two, but based on my view of this it will be nearly simultaneous. I do not see a "addition of resurrection of the tribulation saints" as I see that the resurrection happens once per Rev 20:5 which encompasses the rapture as well. As I currently see it this does not mean 'post-trib' as I am currently persuaded it happens after the 6th seal, with more Trib to continue. Those 'left behind' after this occur are those who in Rev 6:15-17 call for "the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb" - Currently I do not see those remaining on the earth as believing, and none left alive to the Millennium but I havent delved into that too much at this point. I dont expect to be alive at that time still  I am not aware of mention of any additional resurrection save Rev 20:11-15. As I see it there are two, one to life, one to death
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Post by rt on Nov 11, 2020 10:37:21 GMT -6
rt asked: I believe the dead in Christ rise first, then those who are alive and remain follow those. I am not 100% certain of the amount of time between the two, but based on my view of this it will be nearly simultaneous. I do not see a "addition of resurrection of the tribulation saints" as I see that the resurrection happens once per Rev 20:5 which encompasses the rapture as well. As I currently see it this does not mean 'post-trib' as I am currently persuaded it happens after the 6th seal, with more Trib to continue. Those 'left behind' after this occur are those who in Rev 6:15-17 call for "the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb" - Currently I do not see those remaining on the earth as believing, and none left alive to the Millennium but I havent delved into that too much at this point. I dont expect to be alive at that time still I am not aware of mention of any additional resurrection save Rev 20:11-15. As I see it there are two, one to life, one to death Okay Mike here's another question: you say you see the rapture as occuring at the 6th seal, or after it, I do as well. BUt where in the timeline do you put that. Before the 70th week, in the middle, at the end? I see the seals, trumpets, bowls as happening linearly, I know others see them happening concurrently. Here in Rev. 20 you have a resurrection of the righteous, those who did not recieve the mark of the beast, is this when you believe the rapture happens? Also, have you ever considered that "the first resurrection" is a classification rather than an ordinal value? In other words there are two kinds of resurrection, the first kind is for the righteous, and the second kind is for the wicked? Every instance in scripture when the resurrection for the righteous and the wicked are mentioned, the resurrection of the righteous is listed first. 1 Corinthians 15:20- 26 also gives an order of the resurrection of the righteous -Christ the first fruits -those that are Christ's at His coming -then the end I shared a study on this here: unsealed.boards.net/thread/283/resurrection-harvestI won't go into depth here about why I see the Christ first fruits as actually being the body of Christ, the church, you can check out the study if you want to know more. So those raised to life in Rev. 20, which are described as those who didn't take the mark, which would identify them as "tribulation" saints, are included as being part of the first kind of resurrection. Which also happens to come before the second kind of resurrection (of the wicked). |
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Post by rt on Nov 11, 2020 10:51:12 GMT -6
I have a genuine question of curiosity directed at those on this cite that believe a post/mid-trib rapture. No arrogance here. Just curiosity. I am not as well versed as many of the active voices on here, and I love to hear all perspectives on many topics that arise. As i know this is predominantly pre-trib community, I mostly read on that perspective, but I know there are others such as venge who hold differing views. My question, though perhaps vague, is what our "comfort" and "blessed hope" regarding the end times? We are promised salvation through Christ, as is promised to all people from all ages in history who have faith in Jesus Christ. But if the rapture is post/mid-trib, are we not then actual promised MORE suffering than any previous generation? I find it hard to see comfort in that. (skip) This was actually brought to mind by a statement on a recent thread, which has now been stopped: Quote... "Have any of you ever considered what this generation (or you personally) has done that makes it worthy of "rescue" from tribulation, disease, persecution?
Is it because you have been raised in America and enjoyed the blessings of this nation? Many around the world and over centuries have suffered and died for the name of Christ and now you somehow have been betrayed into believing that you will will be rescued from these things? Is it because of your great faith? Your purity? NO! You shall not be rescued. Nor shall you desire rescue." My thought is kind of the opposite; What have we (this generation of true believers) done (differently than those before us) that makes us MORE worthy of tribulation, disease, and persecution? Please speak your thoughts, and as always God bless, brothers and sisters in Christ. I want to address this OP's question, as this thread has gone off in a tangent (partialy my fault). I don't think scripture ever says that believers of different eras will be more worthy of tribulation. What does it mean to be "more worthy"? Whether it's worthy of rescue or tribulation, nothing we do makes us "worthy" it is what God does that makes us worthy of anything. There have been believers all throughout the history of the church that have suffered immense trials and tribulations and martyrdom, it is not unique to any one generation. I think we as Americans feel excluded from "persecution" because up until now we have enjoyed the freedom to serve and worship God. If you look at the letters to the churches in Revelation 2and 3, you see that the church at Smyrna is told it will suffer testing: However the church at Philadelphia is told they will be kept from testing Both churches were faithful and recieved no condemnation, no call to repent. Only a call to continue being faithful, to hold fast. These churches were comtemporaries, one suffered tribulation and persecution, the other as far as we know did not, at least not to the same degree. Was one counted more worthy than the other? No, God knew their circumastances and encouraged them to be faithful in whatever it was they had to endure. What makes anyone worthy is Christ and our faithfulness to Him, period! The circumstances one finds themselves in merely prove our faithfulness to Him. |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Nov 11, 2020 10:53:35 GMT -6
mike , said this: Currently I do not see those remaining on the earth as believing, and none left alive to the Millennium but I havent delved into that too much at this point. I dont expect to be alive at that time still this is not for you mike specifically. I am in agreement that there is thlipsis first and then we will see the Son of Man coming and His Coming will do this: Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming. This falls in with the Fall of MB and an ensuing wrath to those who perish for this: 19“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20“For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. this is why they seek to hide in their own doctrines and understandings, these mountains and rocks created out of perverting the Word of God, not to mention those relying upon geneologies as a form of being spared. We have and are now seeing what the squelching of truth is doing. It is causing a gnashing of teeth (riots) and censorship on the internet with "truth" police. What do you think it will look like as we get further into this: 25“There will be signs in sun and moon and stars (has been happening) and on the earth dismay among nations(we currently are in a form of dismay, tension from difficult circumstances that "won't move" which produces distress (anguish) – causing someone to feel "locked in" , Makes me also think of lock downs,), in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, 26men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. But those who KNOW Him, those who stand firm, running the great race set before them, these things will not harm a hair on your head because we will be rejoicing, not hiding at this: 27“Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory. 28“But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
There will be a transition that happens. It seems to happen rather quickly, like how lightning flashes from the east and goes to the west. Does this KILL those who are hiding in rocks and caves? I am not so sure because all thruought the latter chapters of Rev we see where NATIONS come to heal monthly.. And to get to the quote above, if satan is bound at the beginning of Christ's reign, HOW is deception able to operate? it cant operate if there are no more mortals alive, perhaps... this is the question I would like people to answer.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Nov 11, 2020 11:04:25 GMT -6
I was just thinking the same thing but had no idea how to express it. If I were to describe it, it would be like calling it "the age of the First Resurrection and Second Death". This is what the 1000K reign has as its title. And there are those first fruiters who are immortal, ministering even in and out of the Inner Court..yet the world remains in mortality, until the White Throne. which would be 1000 years later. There is no deception to lead people astray, only healing during this 'Day' of the Lord.
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Post by mike on Nov 11, 2020 12:23:16 GMT -6
rt I put the 6th seal after the AoD, which is likely the mid-point of week 70. I say likely as it is most probable but I think the 6th seal comes at a point after the mid point, which at this time we simply just don't know. So I wouldnt call it the middle, but after the mid-point. See Mark 13:14, Matt 24:15 but before Mark 13:24, Matt 24:29 I do see the Seals happening in chronological order, 1 through 7 but not that they have to happen 1 through 7 with nothing else happening in between or during one of the seals. So somewhat linear and somewhat concurrent. Again this is what I see at this time, however I am still studying through this and some of the timing of events of trumpets and bowls could move but I am fairly certain on the 6th seal. Yes I see this in Rev 20 as a summary of things preceding it regarding the resurrection and rapture. I have considered this position somewhat in that Jesus was also a part of the first resurrection, so we cant certainly say that it happened one time and ended. It is currently still the 1st and wont be completed until the rapture. However I do not see in scripture that there are multiple first resurrections aside from Christ then the firstfruits at His coming. 1Cor 15:23 and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ’s, in his presence, 24 then—the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God,EDIT - RT please understand that the thread is about 'post-trib' and while I do not hold to a post trib view, mine is somewhat late in the Trib. I know that others hold to a pre-trib rapture which I also held at one time. I want to emphasize that I am pointing out that we should not be so easily convinced that we will not endure persecution as I believe you address in the post to the OP. We (the church body) have been tortured, burned, boiled, crucified, prisoned, beheaded and so on through out the ages and in our current day in other countries this continues. We in the 'west' are isolated greatly from this.
My point here is to be prepared. If the pre-trib view is not correct what will we do when the AoD happens? How would even know if we are still expecting to be caught up? Would we even recognize an event like that? However if the pre-trib is correct I am not disappointed at all!
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