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Post by uscgvet on Jan 31, 2020 8:50:54 GMT -6
uscgvet , I think I get what you mean...that if we are going to live by the law we must keep all the law. Is that what you are saying? It's either works (all law) or it's grace (all Christ). We don't do both. That's exactly what is required. (including converting to Judaism under of one of the 12 tribes of Israel) That's why David should have been stoned to death but he wasn't. Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith. David did wrong and should have been put down as per the Law of Moses, but his faith is why God put David's sin away. Paul is correct. This is also why I have such an issue with James Chapter 2 applying to Gentile believers in Christ... (remember, James sent his letter "to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad" James 1:1) How can I be guilty of the whole law in any way, shape or form, if I'm dead to the law with Faith in the shed blood of Christ? James 2: 8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. |
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Jan 31, 2020 9:17:03 GMT -6
The Law I'm talking about is the Ten Commandments. I'm not talking about the other laws that Jews have. Those are made by Jews and for Jews.
EDIT: I removed some text, as not to confuse or possibly give the wrong idea.
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Post by Natalie on Jan 31, 2020 9:25:19 GMT -6
I am going to disagree with you on this. That idea leads to people picking and choosing what they will. That will lead a person into all types of false ideas.
Men wrote the Bible as they were directed by the Holy Spirit. All of it is from God. You can't pick and choose which is inspired Scripture and which is not.
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Post by uscgvet on Jan 31, 2020 9:26:14 GMT -6
The Law I'm talking about is the Ten Commandments. I'm not talking about the other laws that Jews have. Those are made by Jews and for Jews. As for Acts. That decision on what the Gentiles are to follow and not follow was decided by men and not Jesus/GOD. At some point, people need to decide who they are following. GOD/Jesus or men and their ideas? Just because men wrote of an account, does not make them Holier than thou. The only Word that is Holy is GOD/Jesus. Understanding that The Bible is a combination of The Word of GOD (absolute truth), quotes (hopefully true and one would assume), and mans accounts (ideas from their point of view). Scripture/The Word is Holy. Mans ideas and point of view are not but could be of interest. The Bible includes both. GOD nor Jesus said to include any of it all together in one book but it is nice that we do have it. This again, was mans idea to do so. Then you take the Lord's name in vain. Violation of one of the 10 commandments and as per James Chapter 2, violation of the Whole Law! If you take on God's name as your own (as in a marriage which is what that was, between God and Israel), you are to represent the Lord as He commanded you! ...not just 10 out of the hundreds of commandments and statutes. You are to convert to Judaism under one of the 12 tribes, You are to get circumcised by LAW according to the laws of Moses! You are to follow all the laws and statutes of the laws of Moses TO THE LETTER! OR... you can have faith in Christ's finished work on the Cross and believe in the Gospel as defined by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:1-9, and be dead to the Law in Christ. |
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Post by mike on Jan 31, 2020 9:29:36 GMT -6
I am going to disagree with you on this. That idea leads to people picking and choosing what they will. That will lead a person into all types of false ideas. Men wrote the Bible as they were directed by the Holy Spirit. All of it is from God. You can't pick and choose which is inspired Scripture and which is not. And with that we are not to debate this point as part of the rules established here. joe as a new member of the community I ask that you briefly review the rules for this forum (if you havent). We consider Gods word as the bible in its entirety as it has been for hundreds of years. Genesis to Revelation (& maps f you have them) inclusive of all Pauls writing contained therein 1. No debating core doctrines of the Christian faith. If you are participating here you should be a committed Believer. Seekers and non-Christians are more than welcome also, but this is a forum that honors God's Word and therefore arguments against His Word aren't for this forum... questions are welcome though! |
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Jan 31, 2020 9:35:46 GMT -6
Then you take the Lord's name in vain. Violation of one of the 10 commandments and as per James Chapter 2, violation of the Whole Law! If you take on God's name as your own (as in a marriage which is what that was, between God and Israel), you are to represent the Lord as He commanded you! ...not just 10 out of the hundreds of commandments and statutes. You are to convert to Judaism under one of the 12 tribes, You are to get circumcised by LAW according to the laws of Moses! You are to follow all the laws and statutes of the laws of Moses TO THE LETTER! OR... you can have faith in Christ's finished work on the Cross and believe in the Gospel as defined by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:1-9, and be dead to the Law in Christ. That does not make sense. No one was able to keep the Law/Ten Commandments except for Jesus but that does not mean:
1.) You are not to try and follow the Law even when you sinned. Otherwise, why did GOD give them.
2.) That following the Law makes you Jewish.
I'm not taking the Lord's name in vain. I said I follow Him and not man. That is the complete opposite of what you're stating. The Roman Catholic church is not biblical but yet they, the Pope, declares to be in place of Christ. Now that is an abomination, as Satan thought he could do the same, and mans idea.
Why do you clobber me when I say I follow Jesus Christ and not man?
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Jan 31, 2020 9:39:09 GMT -6
EDIT: I removed the text, as not to confuse or possibly give the wrong idea.
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Post by uscgvet on Jan 31, 2020 9:51:14 GMT -6
mike , I do understand what you are saying but did not the Catholic church decide what books/writings entered into the Bible. If all scripture was Holy, then why were there books/writings excluded? As far as I'm concerned, you can lock the thread if it has gone to far but what I said is not wrong. At least I do not believe so. I stayed and backed our Lord's own words. The whole point of the Law was meant for the Jews... and ONLY for the Jews... God took a people out of the Land of Egypt and separated them from other nations to be a nation He would call His own. This nation would take on the Name of God! God Married Israel. The 10 Commandments, and all commandments were the wedding vows. The 10 commandments and all the commandments and statutes to the Jews were ONLY for the Jews because that is who God married. They were not for godless, false idol worshiping, Gentiles as God did not marry the godless Gentiles. When you say we are to follow the law, then that means we are to be Physical Jews and everything that includes as per the Torah. When you say we are only to follow just a small set of commandments, even though God himself commanded you follow ALL his commandments and statutes, then you take God's name in vain. |
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Post by mike on Jan 31, 2020 10:00:05 GMT -6
mike , I do understand what you are saying but did not the Catholic church decide what books/writings entered into the Bible. If all scripture was Holy, then why were there books/writings excluded? As far as I'm concerned, you can lock the thread if it has gone to far but what I said is not wrong. At least I do not believe so. I stayed and backed our Lord's own words. The debate here is surrounding following the law (or 10 commandments) and the need to follow it or not. Although the topic of the thread was Dan 9:27. My intent was to remind us of forum rules. You are free to feel certain portions of the bible are not as valid as others or erroneous, however if you have those feelings please understand that our site does not exclude any scripture regardless of its origin or who deemed it holy script. We do not discount words that Paul or James penned. If you are seeing contradictions between gospels and epistles lets question those in a new thread in an attempt to reconcile those differences as I and many others believe when we encounter contradiction we need to search more to enhance our understanding, asking the Holy Spirit for guidance. |
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Jan 31, 2020 10:04:00 GMT -6
Here's what I'll do. I'm no longer responding to this thread as it does create a big debate. I'm not here to divide or create any anger with anyone. Plus I have many interesting things to show you guys. The next topic will be of interest.  |
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Post by mike on Jan 31, 2020 10:08:07 GMT -6
Here's what I'll do. I'm no longer responding to this thread as it does create a big debate. I'm not here to divide or create any anger with anyone. Plus I have many interesting things to show you guys. The next topic will be of interest. Sounds very fair and Christlike (not dividing). Interested in hearing what you have to say. |
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Joe
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Posts: 93
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Post by Joe on Jan 31, 2020 10:27:09 GMT -6
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Post by stormyknight on Jan 31, 2020 10:35:32 GMT -6
mike , I do understand what you are saying but did not the Catholic church decide what books/writings entered into the Bible. If all scripture was Holy, then why were there books/writings excluded? As far as I'm concerned, you can lock the thread if it has gone to far but what I said is not wrong. At least I do not believe so. I stayed and backed our Lord's own words. Joe, if I may interject here. The council of Nicea is where it was decided what books would be considered canon or not. That council was made up of the 'bishops' or local congregational leaders of the day. I'm willing to bet it was a rather heated debate and lasted days, but I also believe God had the final say and made sure that what was made canon was exactly what He wanted made canon and nothing less. After all, this is His Word "and the Word was with God and the Word was God...". The catholic church bloomed from this time, especially when the council or whatever committee made the bishop from Rome the head over all the rest and thus the pope's throne was established within the Christian church. One must believe that God does everything for a reason, that there are no coincidences. |
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Post by disciple4life on Jan 31, 2020 11:35:43 GMT -6
If someone wants to follow all 613 (I think) laws of Moses, then go for it, but it's not required. As the verses Mike quoted, love God and love your neighbor. That is what is asked of us. |
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Post by disciple4life on Jan 31, 2020 11:52:41 GMT -6
Here's my two cents. It goes to the point of trying to be as precise as we can. Christ said he did not come to abolish the law but fulfill it. We are not under the "Mosaic LAW"which had 630 something details, which no one can even remember. Thus includes dietary restrictions like not mixing milk with meat and not wearing clothing with mixed fibers and women being unclean for 7 days on their cycle etc. etc. etc uscgvet this does not mean that the commandment against adultery and murder and lying only applies to Jews and not to us as Gentiles. How do i know? Because these laws were repeated in the NT except for keeping the sabbath! Why the others and not that one?? Because the one re the Sabbath was a civil law not a moral law. Pauls point the ghe mixed [ Gentile and Jewish churches] in Romans that if we break one part we are guilty of breaking all of it is to illustrate the point that we all are guilty of missing the mark, and all EGR - Extra Grace Required and hopeless and helpless without God's grace. That's why Jesus said that if anyone lusted he is guilty of adultery. When Paul wrote about immortality in Corinthians, he was writing to a mostly Gentile audience, not mostly Jews. |
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