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Post by Natalie on Jan 30, 2020 17:52:03 GMT -6
Joe , question for you... After believing in Jesus for salvation, were Gentiles ever required to follow the Law?
and a thought...
Jesus accomplished what the law could not do. He brought salvation. In that way, we no longer need the law. That's what Paul teaches. It's not that the law is gone, but the power and consequences of the law no longer have its hold on us. We are free. But we are only free because we are slaves of Christ, of righteousness.
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Post by canada on Jan 30, 2020 20:42:09 GMT -6
Getting back on topic ... Daniel 9:27 ... "why do people refer to Dan 9:27 as referring to antichrist?"
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
After three and a half years of His ministry (the midst of the week) Jesus caused the need for the sacrificing to continue, by the sacrifice of His own life for our sins.
Not a future event. |
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Post by mike on Jan 31, 2020 6:17:37 GMT -6
Good point canada however this question wont be answered in this or any other thread. There have been and are many who differ in opinion on this topic. Was this fulfilled in 70AD or will it be future (hopefully like tomorrow). Either way personally I continue to watch for signs that this could happen yet, but remind myself it may have happened already and dont build off of it but like discussing it. |
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Jan 31, 2020 7:33:41 GMT -6
Natalie , I agree with you that Jesus fulfilled it and we are saved by our sins though Him from the Law. But are we still to follow the Law? Yes. Here is why... If a person decides to break the first commandment, he/she is damned without following this law. If a person believes in the first law/commandment but goes on a murder spree, is he/she going through the rapture or the Tribulation? It appears to me the Law still stands but one has to come to repentance. This would be the same for any of the commandments. If we are to repent, then there has to be a Law to repent about. Otherwise, what is left for Christ to judge the world about? They are breaking the laws/commandments and therefor are wicked. mike , Well stated Mike. This is just a discussion with various opinions and does not keep anyone from Salvation. The three things that we all should know/do is follow Jesus Christ (believe, repent, and thank), have some understanding what the Mark of the Beast is, and know that the real Messiah comes with all His saints and His feet land on the Mount of Olives. Doing and understanding these things should keep any Christian on the narrow path to Christ and away from false teachings and anti-Christ.
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Post by mike on Jan 31, 2020 7:53:05 GMT -6
Joe , Natalie , uscgvet Food for thought...I think that in essence all may be saying the same thing but not achieving the end result. The law being fulfilled in Him, we are to follow His example. I do not see that Paul contradicts rather affirms it to the audience(s). I also see that disciple4life puts together a very good way to interpret the situation in this recent post. Lets also look at Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Matt 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Matt 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
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Post by uscgvet on Jan 31, 2020 7:55:35 GMT -6
Were you Circumcised as per Genesis 17?
Gentiles don't have the Law of Moses...
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Jan 31, 2020 8:17:31 GMT -6
mike, "for by the law is the knowledge of sin" <- This is what I'm talking about. We know we have to repent and repentance doesn't come without the breaking of a law. So yes. While we are saved through Jesus Christ, the Law still stands but we were given the blessing to repent of them (The Laws). That's why I say Paul's wording is maybe of bad choice in some spots and people think we are not under the Law anymore. Peter stated Paul's writings were hard to follow. But as you just posted, even Paul says the above quote that is in agreement. uscgvet, Gentiles do have The Law of Moses or else we could not follow the first Commandment. We have and follow a Jewish Messiah. Are we not to be like Christ (the best we can) and follow Him?
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Post by uscgvet on Jan 31, 2020 8:21:30 GMT -6
Jesus, being the King of the Jews, was circumcised.
Be like Jesus.
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Post by Natalie on Jan 31, 2020 8:25:36 GMT -6
I guess my argument is that Joe says Paul said the law is done away with, but that's not true. Paul teaches that we are no longer under those ceremonial and civil laws because those are what separated the Jew and Gentile. But Paul never teaches that the moral law is gone. Otherwise how would we know what it means to live righteously?
In Acts, Peter says essentially why should Gentiles be made to follow the law that no one has been able to keep. He calls it a burden. Then James gives advice to how the Gentiles can honor Christ - avoid sexual immorality, don't consume blood, and stay away from idols. Gentiles don't need the law.
In Romans, God's wrath is because people did not honor Him as God and because they live unrighteous lives. But because they have His moral law on their hearts, they are guilty (and should know it). When they repent, there is forgiveness. Seems like keeping the civil and ceremonial laws is not for the Gentile. And rightly so because that is what kept the Jew and Gentile separate. But we all have the moral law.
But, yeah, my main disagreement is the misrepresentation of what Paul teaches and the questioning of Paul's character.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Jan 31, 2020 8:26:49 GMT -6
Jesus, being the King of the Jews, was circumcised. Be like Jesus. I don't understand what you're getting at. I have been circumcised. On the eighth day? No. It's done after we're born. |
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Post by uscgvet on Jan 31, 2020 8:36:32 GMT -6
Jesus, being the King of the Jews, was circumcised. Be like Jesus. I don't understand what you're getting at. I have been circumcised. On the eighth day? No. It's done after we're born. Have you converted to Judaism? Which tribe are you? Have you kept the whole law? James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. Edit: Leviticus 19:37 Therefore shall ye observe all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: I am the Lord. |
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Post by Natalie on Jan 31, 2020 8:38:17 GMT -6
If someone wants to follow all 613 (I think) laws of Moses, then go for it, but it's not required.
As the verses Mike quoted, love God and love your neighbor. That is what is asked of us.
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Post by uscgvet on Jan 31, 2020 8:39:18 GMT -6
If someone wants to follow all 613 (I think) laws of Moses, then go for it, but it's not required. As the verses Mike quoted, love God and love your neighbor. That is what is asked of us. Leviticus 19:37 Therefore shall ye observe all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: I am the Lord. If you are to keep the whole law, it's required. |
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Post by uscgvet on Jan 31, 2020 8:41:34 GMT -6
God did not make the laws and statutes with Gentiles
Leviticus 26:46 These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the Lord made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.
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Post by Natalie on Jan 31, 2020 8:43:54 GMT -6
uscgvet, I think I get what you mean...that if we are going to live by the law we must keep all the law. Is that what you are saying? It's either works (all law) or it's grace (all Christ). We don't do both.
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