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Post by mike on Jan 30, 2020 9:48:14 GMT -6
Joe, you dont see the AoD as referring to the temple but the entire land? I guess that may be where I'm not following you as I have always felt the reference was regarding the temple (exclusive)
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Jan 30, 2020 9:51:42 GMT -6
uscgvet, Ok, so let's Christ and what happened at the cross. Jesus said he did not come to destroy the law. So what happened at the cross? Jesus death and resurrection added to the Law not subtract. The Law still stands but now it is possible to repent and change your ways. Is it possible we will still sin? Of course, but hopefully by accident and we can still repent again. Mathematically speaking, it is impossible for GOD or The Lord to move backwards or go back on Their Word. They are eternal and always moving forward. The moment They go backwards or against The Word (subtraction) They have lost power in The Word and eternal movement of eternally moving forward. Only man can move backwards and that is in death. But The Lord has made it possible for you to move eternally forward through Jesus Christ. I hope that helps explain and we have to remember, if Jesus said it, then it has to be true no matter what man has said. Man is at fault with error.
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Post by Natalie on Jan 30, 2020 10:05:40 GMT -6
Joe - consider Hebrews Chapter 7, specifically verses 11-12 Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the Law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well. Continuing in verses 18-19 For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect): but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.
And because Jesus is sworn as a priest forever (Ps 110:4) "This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant." Heb 11:22
Now, it says elsewhere that the Law is good, for it points us to our need for God. But we are not under that Law, we are under the law of faith. It's not that He added something to the old Law, He brought a better hope. And under the Law it was still a matter of repentance and faith. That didn't get added at the Cross. Salvation was never by works.
And it's always been through Christ...He told the Jewish leaders "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life: and it is they that bear witness about me...For if you believed Moses, you would believe me: for he wrote of Me." (John 5-39-74 for context)
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Jan 30, 2020 10:06:26 GMT -6
mike, Ok, I see what you are saying. They are not to just flee the Temple but into the mountains (far away). Yes there are mountains in Israel but the current belief is that of Petra. Petra is in Jordan. This current belief once again calls for another desolation of the Jews. Now lets look in Revelation, beyond Revelation 12 (the birth of Jesus), there's a World War coming against Israel. They are surrounded. Guess who is there defending it. The Jews. So where is there another desolation. Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks was talking about the coming of Christ and the abomination that causes the desolation in 70AD. That's why I ask, why are we referring it to the anti-Christ and WWIII? Like I said. I could be wrong but this is the way I see it.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Jan 30, 2020 10:11:31 GMT -6
Natalie , I understand what you are saying but repentance is not works. It's saying I'm sorry and I understand what I did wrong and will try not to do it again. That is what The Lord is looking for. Those who are willing to try to be better. It cost you nothing. No one can buy their way in through works. As we all should know.
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Post by Natalie on Jan 30, 2020 10:18:35 GMT -6
Sorry my wording was confusing, I didn't mean to imply that repentance was works. I meant to imply that repentance was possible before the Cross. It's not something new. Salvation before the cross was still by faith (which includes repentance) not by works of the law.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Jan 30, 2020 10:33:58 GMT -6
Natalie, That's ok but I have to disagree that repentance was possible before Christ. If it were, then why did Jesus have to die on the cross. From my point of view, repentance wasn't possible until Jesus died and rose from the dead. It was Jesus blood that made it possible for those who believed, repented, and changed their ways. All were corrupt from the time of Eden until Jesus shed his blood. We still are in the way that we still sin and can die but there's the promise of eternal resurrection. I would have to look it up but I believe there is different judgement for those who died before Jesus and those after.
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Post by uscgvet on Jan 30, 2020 10:37:25 GMT -6
uscgvet , Ok, so let's Christ and what happened at the cross. Jesus said he did not come to destroy the law. So what happened at the cross? Jesus death and resurrection added to the Law not subtract. The Law still stands but now it is possible to repent and change your ways. Is it possible we will still sin? Of course, but hopefully by accident and we can still repent again. Mathematically speaking, it is impossible for GOD or The Lord to move backwards or go back on Their Word. They are eternal and always moving forward. The moment They go backwards or against The Word (subtraction) They have lost power in The Word and eternal movement of eternally moving forward. Only man can move backwards and that is in death. But The Lord has made it possible for you to move eternally forward through Jesus Christ. I hope that helps explain and we have to remember, if Jesus said it, then it has to be true no matter what man has said. Man is at fault with error. "So what happened at the cross?" This is what happened: Romans 7 1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? 2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. 4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. We are dead to the law. It is finished. The Law is fulfilled. It's done. It's nailed to the cross. We are FREE! Romans 4 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. My evil thoughts, from my evil heart, make me ungodly, but He justifieth me through my faith in Him. Are you Godly?
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Jan 30, 2020 10:50:25 GMT -6
uscgvet, I have to respectfully disagree. This is Paul's theory and goes against what Jesus said. I believe Jesus when He said He did not come to destroy the Law and that we are saved through a new covenant through Jesus Christ. The Law still stands but the belief in Jesus, repentance to Jesus, and changing of our ways. Am I godly? No. I need Jesus just like any other person. What I do find interesting is Paul complaining about how his writings were tampered with. He had to rewrite again and state that these were not his. Just a theory but what if this is one of them? We are to believe there is no Law. We can do what ever we want because Paul's writings say so. That would lead us to a "falling away" so to speak. Granted, this is just a theory, so hopefully no one clobbers me here. But is one to take to consideration.
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Post by uscgvet on Jan 30, 2020 11:00:01 GMT -6
uscgvet , I have to respectfully disagree. This is Paul's theory and goes against what Jesus said. I believe Jesus when He said He did not come to destroy the Law and that we are saved through a new covenant through Jesus Christ. The Law still stands but the belief in Jesus, repentance to Jesus, and changing of our ways. Am I godly? No. I need Jesus just like any other person. What I do find interesting is Paul complaining about how his writings were tampered with. He had to rewrite again and state that these were not his. Just a theory but what if this is one of them? We are to believe there is no Law. We can do what ever we want because Paul's writings say so. That would lead us to a "falling away" so to speak. Granted, this is just a theory, so hopefully no one clobbers me here. But is one to take to consideration. Paul's theory? No, Paul was quoting David's Psalms... over and over throughout his letters, just like Jesus. Psalm 32 1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. 2 Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile. Romans 4 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Jesus agrees with David. Calling Paul a liar... quoting David... is pretty strong words. Here is the verse I was looking for as it applies to us being dead to the law: Romans 5 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. This is why Psalm 32:1-2 is correct. And Romans 4:5-6.
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Post by Natalie on Jan 30, 2020 11:07:09 GMT -6
Words of Paul:
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? (Romans 6:1-2)
Paul's writings do not say we can do whatever we want.
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Post by mike on Jan 30, 2020 11:08:35 GMT -6
Joe, uscgvet, just a very simple illustration to interject as I am reading along. We have laws that we can change and laws we cannot change. I am not speaking of those we can, rather those we cant like gravity. Gravity is like the law of Moses. It is exists and we cannot overcome it. It was given to show us our inadequacies when compared to the Holy God. Jesus was sent to show us a better way. The law of lift allows birds, airplanes and such overcome gravity, yet gravity is still present even though not apparent. A different law at work within our members is what Romans 7 is telling us. Just a simple analogy, hope it helps some
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Joe
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Posts: 93
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Post by Joe on Jan 30, 2020 12:04:48 GMT -6
uscgvet, Where in Psalms does it say the Law is abolished? If I missed something, I will admit I'm wrong. The two verses you posted don't show that. Natalie, I exaggerated a bit to prove a point. Which is. If some start to believe that we are not under the Law, who's to say what we can get away with. It just doesn't seem correct to me. Back to Jesus own words. Why are we ignoring what Jesus said? He said I did not come to abolish the Law. Who are we following? Jesus or Paul? Not saying that he was not a believer in Christ but is he not guilty to fault like any other man, woman, or child? Are his words The Living Word like Christ where you can find Bible codes in?
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Post by Natalie on Jan 30, 2020 12:19:47 GMT -6
All Scripture is from God. Paul's writings were inspired by the Holy Spirit and are truth.
"Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to Him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code." Romans 7:4-7
We are released from the Law in order to serve Jesus by faith through the power of the Spirit.
But if you discount Paul then this discussion is pointless.
"Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? For when there is a change in priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well." Hebrews 7:11-12
I liked Mike's illustration. The Law is still there, it points us to our need for a Savior, but once we have faith in the Savior, it's freedom. We go from slaves to sin to become slaves to righteousness, bondservants of Christ.
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Post by uscgvet on Jan 30, 2020 12:24:48 GMT -6
uscgvet , Where in Psalms does it say the Law is abolished? If I missed something, I will admit I'm wrong. The two verses you posted don't show that. Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; You may have a problem with this verse...
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