Joe
Layman
Posts: 93
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Post by Joe on Jan 30, 2020 12:50:03 GMT -6
Natalie, Read all of Hebrews 7. It's talking about taking tithes. For each priest the law of tithes did change. This is not the same Law, Ten Commandments, we're talking about. The Jewish people have many laws for various things. 2 Timothy 3:16 - All scripture is given by inspiration of God... Yes and no. True scripture by GOD is obvious but we have false scripture that never made it into the Bible. So we really can not say all scripture. Paul complained his own words were being corrupted and he had to rewrite to tell the people previous scriptures were not his. GOD nor Jesus ever said to put all the writings in one book. This was done by man. I would say this does make an awesome book. The best in the world. But once again, why are we ignoring Jesus own words? Oh yeah. 2 Timothy is another writing by Paul. You can not prove Paul by quoting Paul in a friendly debate. It has to be by another book.
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Joe
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Posts: 93
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Post by Joe on Jan 30, 2020 12:53:34 GMT -6
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Post by uscgvet on Jan 30, 2020 13:06:21 GMT -6
OK, As for David's Psalms... David shouldn't even have lived had it not been because of his faith. He had Uriah the Hittite murdered so David could steal the man's wife as his own. Now following the law, David should have been stoned to death; but evidently, "the just shall live by faith" proved true in David's case. 2 Samuel 12 13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said unto David, The Lord also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die. What happened to the law? |
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Joe
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Posts: 93
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Post by Joe on Jan 30, 2020 13:20:22 GMT -6
uscgvet , You didn't finish. David didn't die but his son did by The Lord's judgement.
EDIT: Removed info that I can not prove and was theory.
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Post by uscgvet on Jan 30, 2020 13:24:24 GMT -6
uscgvet , You didn't finish. David didn't die but his son did by The Lord's judgement. Now here's a secret for you. Are you familiar with Hebrew gematria? Tav = 400 Resh = 200 Samekh = 60 Vav = 6 What does that spell in Hebrew? Tarsu(s). Where is Paul from? Tarsus. The very same place that The Lord says Satan's seat resides. In Turkey. If one wants to believe that the devil did not try his best to corrupt scripture, you are wrong. The very man who killed Christians and claimed by his own account that he was changed by Jesus Christ. Maybe he was and the evil spirits kept corrupting his text or Paul is just a flat out liar? Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to discount everything Paul wrote but something is not right when he discounts Jesus' own words. Maybe there is part truth and maybe it's just another way for the devil to deceive you. Something to think about. What does this mean: "The Lord also hath put away thy sin" ? Edit: and the child did not die because David committed murder and adultery (argumentative since her husband was already dead)... The child died because of this: 2 Samuel 12:14 because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. Because the Lord's enemies now have justified reason to blaspheme the Lord, the child dies... but David's sins where "put away"... By Law, David should have been condemned to death, but he wasn't. Again I ask, where was the Law? |
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Post by Natalie on Jan 30, 2020 13:34:05 GMT -6
Hebrews 7 is about Jesus...The King of Righteousness and King of Peace (foreshadowed in Melchizedek). The tithes part was simply to show the context of how Abraham came to be in the presence of Melchizedek (Melchizedek who met Abraham with bread and wine, which I think is a cool detail). But it's about Jesus. Jesus is a priest and king like Melchizedek, not of the line of Levi but of Judah. So, by a change in priesthood there is a change in the law. Not in the law to tithe, but in the whole law. Read 18-25 He brings a better hope, a better covenant, and saves to the uttermost.
Peter says of Paul "Our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given to him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures." (2 Peter 3:15-16) Sure sounds like Peter thinks Paul's words are worthy to be included in with the Scriptures. And letters that are not included in the Bible are not labeled "Scripture" they are just letters or epistles. So, Paul's previous letters were just letters. They aren't Scripture until included in the Bible.
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Post by bondservant on Jan 30, 2020 13:37:22 GMT -6
Natalie , That's ok but I have to disagree that repentance was possible before Christ. If it were, then why did Jesus have to die on the cross. From my point of view, repentance wasn't possible until Jesus died and rose from the dead. It was Jesus blood that made it possible for those who believed, repented, and changed their ways. All were corrupt from the time of Eden until Jesus shed his blood. We still are in the way that we still sin and can die but there's the promise of eternal resurrection. I would have to look it up but I believe there is different judgement for those who died before Jesus and those after. The word repentance comes from the Hebrew word: תשובה pronounced "tshuva" or "teshuva" means to return. The month of Elul is a time of repentance in preparation for the High Holidays of Rosh Hashanah and Yom Teruah. The story of the Prodigal Son is a story of repentance. |
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Joe
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Posts: 93
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Post by Joe on Jan 30, 2020 13:43:49 GMT -6
uscgvet, "by this deed" is referring to the same topic of matter that the child dies. So why didn't David die? Because the Lord wasn't done with him yet but a child took his place. What a horrible judgement David had to carry. It's also prophecy. The Son of GOD would also die for anothers sin. It's stuff like this the Jews should have seen or been aware of when Jesus came on the scene. They missed it. Like so many others. So to sum up. The Law was there. The Son dies in order to fulfill it.
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Joe
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Posts: 93
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Post by Joe on Jan 30, 2020 13:47:52 GMT -6
Natalie , But your point was the law changing with every new priesthood. Hebrews 7:24 states that His priesthood doesn't change, therefor nor the Law neither.
See. Even Peter claims there's issues that are hard to understand that some may twist. I bet one of them was the abolishment of the Law claimed by Paul. Maybe Paul explained this better with Peter and maybe not the right choice of words he should have used?
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Post by Natalie on Jan 30, 2020 13:48:22 GMT -6
I was just reading Numbers 21:4-9 today. Sure sounds like repentance there.
Summary - the people are complaining (again) and even call the manna worthless food. God sends serpents to bite them, some die, and then the people say, "We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD and against you. Pray to the LORD that He take away the serpents from us."
One of the jobs of the prophets was to call the people to return to God. Repentance.
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Joe
Layman
Posts: 93
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Post by Joe on Jan 30, 2020 13:56:14 GMT -6
Natalie, Yes and no. You know what they did? They looked upon the snake on the staff and were healed. It was a reminder of what happened in Eden. Once they saw it, they probably did ask for forgiveness. But that is not documented. Nice find though. Glad you found it. 
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Post by Natalie on Jan 30, 2020 14:01:08 GMT -6
Natalie , But your point was the law changing with every new priesthood. Hebrews 7:24 states that His priesthood doesn't change, therefor nor the Law neither. The priesthood only changed once - when the priesthood changed from the Levites to Jesus, who was of the tribe of Judah. At that change in priesthood then the Law changed. You are right that Jesus is a priest forever, but when was He acknowledged as High Priest? After His obedience to the Cross (Hebrews 5:9-10) So, a new law from the time of His death and resurrection. He fulfilled the old at the Cross. "Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant He mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second."
"Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them our of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke,...For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people." (Jeremiah 31:31-33)
This is what Jesus did! |
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Post by uscgvet on Jan 30, 2020 14:01:32 GMT -6
uscgvet , "by this deed" is referring to the same topic of matter that the child dies. So why didn't David die? Because the Lord wasn't done with him yet but a child took his place. What a horrible judgement David had to carry. It's also prophecy. The Son of GOD would also die for anothers sin. It's stuff like this the Jews should have seen or been aware of when Jesus came on the scene. They missed it. Like so many others. So to sum up. The Law was there. The Son dies in order to fulfill it. "So why didn't David die? Because the Lord wasn't done with him yet but a child took his place." Incorrect. The Bible doesn't state that. What the Bible actually states is that: "The Lord also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die." which is a direct violation of God's own Law. The child was taken because the "deed" resulted in that justification of the Lord's enemies to blaspheme. The Law was fulfilled with the death of the child to atone for the enemy's reason to blaspheme. The Law was NOT fulfilled with the death of David for murder and adultery. David wasn't replaced by his son. David's sins were put away. I find it curious that you keep from acknowledging this fact. Both David and his son should have died. Murder - David (sin put away) Adultery - David (sin put away) Blaspheme - David's Son (death) |
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Post by Natalie on Jan 30, 2020 14:03:21 GMT -6
Natalie , Yes and no. You know what they did? They looked upon the snake on the staff and were healed. It was a reminder of what happened in Eden. Once they saw it, they probably did ask for forgiveness. But that is not documented. Nice find though. Glad you found it. I'm not sure that it points back to Eden. I think it points ahead to Jesus:
John 3:14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him may have eternal life." (John 3:14-15)
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Joe
Layman
Posts: 93
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Post by Joe on Jan 30, 2020 14:13:32 GMT -6
uscgvet , It wasn't stated but obvious to figure out by the story of David and what still needs to take place. His sons death is explained in the same verse on why he didn't die. I don't know what to tell you but we will have to agree to disagree. Natalie , It points to Eden as that's all they knew and where the sin originally developed. But yes, it is a reference that your sins will be covered by the crucifixion. It's exactly why Jesus died on the cross because that is where it began with the serpent and the tree. Everything is done in a purpose to fulfill prophecy and the Law.
Yes, John does explain it very well in that verse.
I'm taking a break for the day. If I don't hop on here later, I'll be back tomorrow.
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