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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2019 4:09:49 GMT -6
Yardstick, thanks for helping with the math! If we count back 1260 days from Passover 2021, we find ourselves at 15 October 2017, at the time of the birth of Zedek from the womb of Virgo
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Post by kjs on Apr 22, 2019 10:03:36 GMT -6
It's a mistake to apply rules of English grammar to Biblical Hebrew. Daniel 9:27 literally reads, without reordering of words or inserting prepositions: V'higbir beriyt l'rabiyim shabua echad "he will cause to strengthen covenant with many week one" In Biblical Hebrew, "he" refers to the most recent antecedent pronoun, ie "the prince who is to come", not Messiah prince. Now good friends of mine believe "the prince who is to come" is Messiah. I believe otherwise, since the people who destroyed the Temple were the Romans, not Jews, but literally they were local Arab/Syrian recruits according to Josephus. The only prince mentioned in the passage is Messiah the Prince. In verse 24 he's referred as "to anoint the most Holy. Inverse 25 he's called "Messiah the Prince." In verse 26 he's called, "Messiah." The "prince that shall come doesn't change in verse 27. I repeat... the only prince mentioned in the text is Messiah! The Book of Daniel was written in two languages Hebrew and Aramaic. Chapter 1 and then Chapter 8 through 12 were written in Hebrew -- while chapter's two through 7 were written in Aramaic.
In fact the different languages is why many scholars claim that the Book of Daniel was not written by the one known as Daniel.
Since in Matthew 24:15 -- Jesus says "15 When, therefore, you see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),..."
Tell's us that Daniel was a Real Prophet -- who was authenticated by Jesus. It ALSO tells us that -- The Maccabean Revolt [167 to 160 BCE] -- which was fought because of the following offense ..."In 168 BC, the Greek king Antiochus IV Epiphanes invaded Jerusalem and captured the city. He marched into the Jewish temple, erected a statue of the Greek god Zeus, and sacrificed a pig on the altar of incense." WAS NOT the abomination of desolation (spoken of in Daniel) because by the time of Jesus it was already 200 years in the past.
So from the time of Jesus -- until NOW (present day) abomination of desolation -- HAS NOT OCCURRED! (all those who speak of the 70th year already occurring -- needs to SHOW where the abomination of desolation has occurred AND -- Since during The Olivet Discourse given by Jesus points to the LAST DAYS -- why if it (abomination of desolation) has happen -- why has Jesus not returned?
jamie -- I believe you are a bit confused when you claim - "the only prince mentioned in the text is Messiah"....
Let us try reading it again "25 Know therefore and discern, that from the going out of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the Anointed One, the prince, shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks: it shall be built again, with street and moat, even in troubled times. "
So we have Prince number One mentioned specifically as "the Anointed One, the prince" -- So this is definitely the Messiah.
NEXT - "26 After the sixty-two weeks the Anointed One shall be cut off, and shall have nothing..." This is Still Prince Number One -- AND HE DIES!!!!! AND HAS NOTHING -- no land, no people ....
NOW verse 26 continues ... the people of the prince who shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; -- NOTICE IT SAYS THE PEOPLE -- OF THE COMING PRINCE -- this is talking about PRINCE TWO!
THERE ARE NOW TWO PRINCES being discussed ... one is dead and One is coming with a group of people who will destroy the CITY and the temple.....
Verse 27 finishes the chapter with ... "27 He shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease; and on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate; and even to the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out on the desolate."
WHO is the HE? -- THE ONLY PRINCE STILL LIVING!
Remember at the time of this prophecy ... there is NO Resurrection being discussed.... You have a dead Prince and A Prince who comes with his people and destroys the city and temple....
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Post by venge on Apr 22, 2019 10:18:43 GMT -6
So if you believe all 70 weeks are completed, how does the 42 months time of the gentiles of Revelation fit into an already fulfilled prophecy? Also, how does revelation fit into an already completed 70th week if John wrote revelation around 96 AD well after this completion?
I think you're applying your thinking about the 70th week to people who don't even believe in it.
Another thing I'm confused about is this quote,What verse 1 are you talking about? Also, I think it's a mistake to inject the rapture in this. It seem that pre-tribbers or pre-wrath believers who believe in the 2,000 year gap like to inject the rapture in there somewhere and I don't see the necessity of it.Reference the 2nd Question is the original Post up top. |
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Post by venge on Apr 22, 2019 10:22:59 GMT -6
Venge, I believe the 70th week is seven years, the 1260 days and the time, times, and half a time are one and the same, and represent the first half of the 70th week. The last half is 1290 days, because of the Metonic cycle, and is the length of time from Passover to Yom Kippur 3 1/2 years later. In a normal 19 year Metonic cycle, there are 2 intervals which result in a day count of 1290 from Passover to Yom Kippur over a 3 1/2 year period, the other 3 1/2 year periods result in day counts of ~1260. The intervals are from year 6-8, and 17-19.......these have 1290 day counts from Passover to Yom Kippur 3 1/2 years later. The result is that every 8 and 11 alternating years is a 7 year period when the first 3 1/2 years is 1260 days, and the last 3 1/2 years is 1290 days. The most recent period was 2009-2016. We are currently in one from 2017-2024. The next one would be 2028-2035, then 2036-2043, then 2047-2054, alternating every 8 or 11 years etc.... Interesting, haven't heard it like that. So you are suggesting if I got this right: The 70 th week is not fulfilled yet. It is 7 literal years. The first half is 42 months The second half is 42 months and 30 days is this right? |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2019 10:27:12 GMT -6
Yes Venge, that is how I see it, but I hold onto it very loosely! It makes sense to me, and seems consistent with the Word....
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Post by venge on Apr 22, 2019 10:32:50 GMT -6
The only prince mentioned in the passage is Messiah the Prince. In verse 24 he's referred as "to anoint the most Holy. Inverse 25 he's called "Messiah the Prince." In verse 26 he's called, "Messiah." The "prince that shall come doesn't change in verse 27. I repeat... the only prince mentioned in the text is Messiah! The Book of Daniel was written in two languages Hebrew and Aramaic. Chapter 1 and then Chapter 8 through 12 were written in Hebrew -- while chapter's two through 7 were written in Aramaic.
In fact the different languages is why many scholars claim that the Book of Daniel was not written by the one known as Daniel.
Since in Matthew 24:15 -- Jesus says "15 When, therefore, you see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),..."
Tell's us that Daniel was a Real Prophet -- who was authenticated by Jesus. It ALSO tells us that -- The Maccabean Revolt [167 to 160 BCE] -- which was fought because of the following offense ..."In 168 BC, the Greek king Antiochus IV Epiphanes invaded Jerusalem and captured the city. He marched into the Jewish temple, erected a statue of the Greek god Zeus, and sacrificed a pig on the altar of incense." WAS NOT the abomination of desolation (spoken of in Daniel) because by the time of Jesus it was already 200 years in the past.
So from the time of Jesus -- until NOW (present day) abomination of desolation -- HAS NOT OCCURRED! (all those who speak of the 70th year already occurring -- needs to SHOW where the abomination of desolation has occurred AND -- Since during The Olivet Discourse given by Jesus points to the LAST DAYS -- why if it (abomination of desolation) has happen -- why has Jesus not returned?
jamie -- I believe you are a bit confused when you claim - "the only prince mentioned in the text is Messiah"....
Let us try reading it again "25 Know therefore and discern, that from the going out of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the Anointed One, the prince, shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks: it shall be built again, with street and moat, even in troubled times. "
So we have Prince number One mentioned specifically as "the Anointed One, the prince" -- So this is definitely the Messiah.
NEXT - "26 After the sixty-two weeks the Anointed One shall be cut off, and shall have nothing..." This is Still Prince Number One -- AND HE DIES!!!!! AND HAS NOTHING -- no land, no people ....
NOW verse 26 continues ... the people of the prince who shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; -- NOTICE IT SAYS THE PEOPLE -- OF THE COMING PRINCE -- this is talking about PRINCE TWO!
THERE ARE NOW TWO PRINCES being discussed ... one is dead and One is coming with a group of people who will destroy the CITY and the temple.....
Verse 27 finishes the chapter with ... "27 He shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease; and on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate; and even to the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out on the desolate."
WHO is the HE? -- THE ONLY PRINCE STILL LIVING!
Remember at the time of this prophecy ... there is NO Resurrection being discussed.... You have a dead Prince and A Prince who comes with his people and destroys the city and temple....
I want to expand on something you said, When Christ died he was as Prince. Christ was heir to the King. But when Christ comes back, he is King and he will reign. This would imply that the prince spoken of is not Christ but another prince IMO. |
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Post by venge on Apr 22, 2019 10:37:25 GMT -6
Yes Venge, that is how I see it, but I hold onto it very loosely! It makes sense to me, and seems consistent with the Word.... How do you explain then my second question I posed? If we still have 7 literal years, why does Rev 12 show 1260 days are in the past and the second time 1260 days are mentioned could be past or future. There is not a mention in that of 1290 days. It sounds as if the first week is past and half a week left. Care to explain? |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2019 10:59:39 GMT -6
Venge, in Revelation 12 there are two signs in heaven back to back, the sign of the Woman in Labor, and the sign of the Dragon.....I believe these both refer to the purported celestial signs of the fall of 2017. John gives specific descriptors for these signs, which I believe line up with the celestial signs....I realize you are skeptical here from your past posts, but I consider that a good thing.
Bear with me a minute....hypothetically, if the sign of the Woman in Labor of 23 September 2017 is indeed reflected in the celestial alignment of Jupiter, or Zedek, the planet associated with the Messiah by the ancients, then when Jupiter left Virgo, it went directly to Libra, also known as the Throne of God. Simultaneously, Saturn, the planet associated with Satan, left Ophiuchus, the Serpent Wrestler, or Restrainer, and headed straight to Sagittarius, the rider of the horse with a bow. So I believe v5 and v6 are describing the signs in heaven John is talking about, and is not in the past, but the present. In which case, the day count of 1260 theoretically began on 15 October 2017, when Jupiter left the womb of Virgo.
This is a hypothesis only, and is falsifiable in the sense that if there is no AOD by Passover 2021, the theory is incorrect.....so far, it is hanging in there in my view!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2019 11:06:43 GMT -6
I would go on to say that the Dragon, Satan is thrown to earth, enraged because he has limited time. The end result of Revelation 12 that we can observe is 1) anti-Semitism and 2) anti-Christian hatred, since Satan goes after the Woman, and the rest of her offspring identified by John as believers. Have we seen an increase in anti-Semitism and anti-Christian hatred in the last year and a half? I would say so!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2019 11:12:08 GMT -6
For 42 months Israel is relatively protected according to Revelation 12, and I think it's possible we are in that time at the moment. After the AOD at the middle of the week, that protection goes away as the Great Tribulation begins, which would put it from Passover 2021 to Yom Kippur 2024 if this theory is correct.
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Post by venge on Apr 22, 2019 11:24:41 GMT -6
Venge, in Revelation 12 there are two signs in heaven back to back, the sign of the Woman in Labor, and the sign of the Dragon.....I believe these both refer to the purported celestial signs of the fall of 2017. John gives specific descriptors for these signs, which I believe line up with the celestial signs....I realize you are skeptical here from your past posts, but I consider that a good thing. Bear with me a minute....hypothetically, if the sign of the Woman in Labor of 23 September 2017 is indeed reflected in the celestial alignment of Jupiter, or Zedek, the planet associated with the Messiah by the ancients, then when Jupiter left Virgo, it went directly to Libra, also known as the Throne of God. Simultaneously, Saturn, the planet associated with Satan, left Ophiuchus, the Serpent Wrestler, or Restrainer, and headed straight to Sagittarius, the rider of the horse with a bow. So I believe v5 and v6 are describing the signs in heaven John is talking about, and is not in the past, but the present. In which case, the day count of 1260 theoretically began on 15 October 2017, when Jupiter left the womb of Virgo. This is a hypothesis only, and is falsifiable in the sense that if there is no AOD by Passover 2021, the theory is incorrect.....so far, it is hanging in there in my view! Sam, I respect that this is a "thing" on this site that many hold to, but as you said: I realize you are skeptical here from your past posts.
I am not only skeptical, I find it quite dangerous. Christ was sincere when he consistently said over and over in scripture to be concerned with our hearts and minds. And, that we would know each other from the enemy by their fruit. When he gave the example of the fig tree, it was literally "seeing" the things happen before us in a spiritual and literal sense. Neither he, nor Paul or others taught to keep looking into the stars for a sign. Quite the contrary. Christ opposed the Pharisees for searching after such a sign that they need to see in the heavens when the sign was right in front of them. Christ even said to be able to see these signs, we must be awake and not sleep as others do. That is a spiritual condition, and a telescope cannot help to find it. This was not something taught in the early church that we can ref. today. I think ref. to seasons and times are just that. Understanding the seasons and times of the seasons. Literally and spiritually as the fig tree is given. Not to look into outer space. The falling away is not in outer space. The depravity of man is not in outer space The beast kingdom is not in outer space The Anti-Christ is not in outer space The future wars coming are not in outer space The lake of fire is not in outer space The fig tree, and mystery Babylon isn't either... We need to look around us, not above us. Otherwise, you will miss it when its right in front of you. Rev 12 is obviously symbolic and figurative. How that got turned into looking into the sky and not applying it to scripture that demonstrates those verses is beyond me, truly. I don't mean to be so opposed to the notion that many hold to but I cannot for my soul's sake see it as such. This is a sensitive topic for me. But let us return to the 70 week problem and explore why else the 2 1260 days are in Rev 12 |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2019 11:34:46 GMT -6
Venge, I understand where you are coming from, as I was once there myself. And, it's still not a slam dunk that the purported signs are meaningful.....I see them as part of a falsifiable hypothesis, as in, "well if they are meaningful, then this is what I would expect to happen...", and the jury is still out.
I would say that the heavenly lights were given in part for signs as stated in Genesis, so I have left open the possibility. Have you ever wondered what the ancient magi (Daniel's protégé's) saw with regard to the Star of Bethlehem? There are no descriptors of the Star in the Bible....but, somehow they knew it was significant, likely by direct revelation. Larson's work on the Star of Bethlehem was interesting to me, and I thought if it was accurate back then, it could possibly apply now...we will see.
All that said, I am sharing with you how I came to consider the possibility these may be accurate....but, it is all theory to me at this point!
Shalom!
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Post by venge on Apr 22, 2019 11:42:48 GMT -6
For 42 months Israel is relatively protected according to Revelation 12, and I think it's possible we are in that time at the moment. After the AOD at the middle of the week, that protection goes away as the Great Tribulation begins, which would put it from Passover 2021 to Yom Kippur 2024 if this theory is correct. I am not so sure the AOD is in the middle of the week. That is a possibility but I don't see it as 100% infallible. No AOD here. Does not signify that they are both in the middle nor does it elude to the fact that they are both up at the same time. It only says from one (daily removed) to the other (AOD setup) there will be 1290 days. Is it possible that it reflects from one ceasing to the other being set up is 1290 days between them. Lastly Daniel 11:31 In each case, three times it is said "and they shall". We dont know the time period for each part to be completed. The only thing is for sure, in the midst of the week the daily will be removed. The AOD is not said to be there unless you can find scripture that says so that I may have missed. EDIT: I should add, it is common to assume such as many writers have, but as I follow scripture, I need to see it say it or it leaves open the possibility that it is right and it can be wrong. Understanding the relation of Jerusalem being surrounded by armies and being attacked in the middle of the week leaving 42 mo's to remain makes it VERY difficult to understand how the 2 witnesses survive an onslaught while they spread the gospel for 42 months themselves in a city destroyed, where women are raped, children are killed, a famine is going on and the enemy has setup camp yet they still live in the open trying to convert people? A logical approach is when the beast does setup the AoD is when they are killed which happens later thus separating the daily and the AOD apart. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2019 11:43:44 GMT -6
And I suppose I see Rev 12:5,6 as not in the past, but in the future from John, as he is describing v5,6 in the context of Great Signs in Heaven, whatever that may mean....I see the description as pertaining to the future, not a descriptor of the past
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2019 11:48:37 GMT -6
Good points Venge.....the Gospels complement each other with some describing one feature of the same event differently than another. I would just say that I believe the AOD is in the middle of the 70th week, that it is connected to stop to sacrifice, and occur at the same time. I will need to look at the Hebrew structure of Daniel 12 and get back later, have to go to the salt mine for the remainder of the day!
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