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Post by venge on Apr 20, 2019 7:44:12 GMT -6
There are many topics on the 70th week, one is going on right now. But what I wanted to ask the readers of UNSEALED is regarding the length of time of the 70th week. When we look to the future prophecy, I have seen people suggest a full 7 years time period, and just 3.5 year time period encompassing the events or most of the events in Revelation.
We know from Daniel that AFTER 69 weeks, Christ dies on the cross (Dan 9:26). So I have a 2 fold question for you all and I'd love to hear your views sincerely.
1. If the 69 week ended, and Christ died AFTER it, was Christ in the 70th week before he died? If so, how long into it?
2. This question is longer, Rev 12 mentions 2 separate times of 1260 days. I will post it below.
In the 2 cases listed above, big events happen that would separate these 2 separate 1260 days from each other so that neither of them are the same event. I believe these verses hold the undeniable answer to the 70th week question.
IMO, verses 5-6 regard Christ's sacrifice on the cross. And the women that fled was the Church.
In verse 14, they flee when the devil is cast down. In verse 5-6 the devil had not been cast down YET.
If both passages are past, how do we equate both 1260 days or 7 years being completed? I suppose thats a third question lol. But you don't need to answer that one. I think the key lies in the last verse.
Now, we can say this happens today and has been happening but not globally yet. But that would only leave 42 months left, as the previous 42 months were used in verses 5-6. This would model the 2 witnesses and the times of the gentiles and the reign of the beast all for 42 months.
Thoughts on these verses and how they apply to Daniels 70th week? Would really love to bury this one and I am looking for serious responses whether Pre-trib, post-trib, 7 literal years, only 3.5 years etc..
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Post by mike on Apr 20, 2019 10:46:36 GMT -6
Venge - I am in on this one...I have thoughts and will ponder a bit before responding.
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Post by kjs on Apr 20, 2019 16:34:39 GMT -6
venge -- the new avatar for you makes you look "Dad-ish" -- is that intentional -- and by the way -- "How is the Little One"....
As I have attempted to point out multiple times -- A direct straight forward reading with Daniel (especially Daniel 9) Leaves the reader with only a couple of choices.
1) Daniel is a False Prophet -- and He lied about the meeting Gabriel and receiving a message from God.
2) Daniel is a False Prophet -- because he failed to record the correct statements given him by Gabriel. 3) Daniel is a False Prophet -- because Gabriel and God lied to him. 4) Daniel is a True Prophet -- but because we (the generation alive today) do not understand the nuances of what Daniel meant by his words; so we fail to understand completely.
I personally have gone with (and believe number 4) -- I think Daniel was a true prophet of God.
I have also stated multiple times -- Daniel's 70th week Prophecy is for the people of Israel and Jerusalem (primarily because it states so specifically).
According to the Prophecy -- the death and burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ happened AFTER the 69th week.
The destruction of Jerusalem and the temple happened AFTER the 69th week.
Yet BOTH of those "predictions" are recorded in the first part of verse 26...
IN FACT let us read it again .....
"26 After the sixty-two weeks the Anointed One[d] shall be cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince who shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and its end shall be with a flood, and even to the end shall be war; desolations are determined."
To make sure we are on the same page (the 62 weeks is after the 7 weeks -- for a total of 69 weeks)
NOW depending who you believe (and there are several calculators out there) the death occurred anywhere from a few days after the completion of the 69th week; to several years after the 69th week.
REGARDLESS of those views the DESTRUCTION of the City and Temple happen at least 37 years later.....
So because of that very fact alone -- you have to either side with the False Prophet beliefs (cause way out side of the 7 years - or the last week) -- OR have to accept some type of Pause was implemented BEFORE the start of that 70th week.
Say BEFORE because we are clearly told the 70th Week is "STARTED" by a covenant (yes, yes I know some argue it was started and some argue it was confirmed)...
BUT that covenant is with SOMEONE and Israel .....
Problem is Israel did not have the ability to enter into a covenant from Jesus Resurrection until the destruction of Temple because they were a Vassal state of Roman. They (Israel) did not exist after 70AD.....
So therefore -- in my opinion -- the seven years will be seven full years and will start with Israel making a covenant with someone.
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Post by venge on Apr 20, 2019 16:52:04 GMT -6
venge -- the new avatar for you makes you look "Dad-ish" -- is that intentional -- and by the way -- "How is the Little One"....
As I have attempted to point out multiple times -- A direct straight forward reading with Daniel (especially Daniel 9) Leaves the reader with only a couple of choices.
1) Daniel is a False Prophet -- and He lied about the meeting Gabriel and receiving a message from God.
2) Daniel is a False Prophet -- because he failed to record the correct statements given him by Gabriel. 3) Daniel is a False Prophet -- because Gabriel and God lied to him. 4) Daniel is a True Prophet -- but because we (the generation alive today) do not understand the nuances of what Daniel meant by his words; so we fail to understand completely.
I personally have gone with (and believe number 4) -- I think Daniel was a true prophet of God.
I have also stated multiple times -- Daniel's 70th week Prophecy is for the people of Israel and Jerusalem (primarily because it states so specifically).
According to the Prophecy -- the death and burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ happened AFTER the 69th week.
The destruction of Jerusalem and the temple happened AFTER the 69th week.
Yet BOTH of those "predictions" are recorded in the first part of verse 26...
IN FACT let us read it again .....
"26 After the sixty-two weeks the Anointed One[d] shall be cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince who shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and its end shall be with a flood, and even to the end shall be war; desolations are determined."
To make sure we are on the same page (the 62 weeks is after the 7 weeks -- for a total of 69 weeks)
NOW depending who you believe (and there are several calculators out there) the death occurred anywhere from a few days after the completion of the 69th week; to several years after the 69th week.
REGARDLESS of those views the DESTRUCTION of the City and Temple happen at least 37 years later.....
So because of that very fact alone -- you have to either side with the False Prophet beliefs (cause way out side of the 7 years - or the last week) -- OR have to accept some type of Pause was implemented BEFORE the start of that 70th week.
Say BEFORE because we are clearly told the 70th Week is "STARTED" by a covenant (yes, yes I know some argue it was started and some argue it was confirmed)...
BUT that covenant is with SOMEONE and Israel .....
Problem is Israel did not have the ability to enter into a covenant from Jesus Resurrection until the destruction of Temple because they were a Vassal state of Roman. They (Israel) did not exist after 70AD.....
So therefore -- in my opinion -- the seven years will be seven full years and will start with Israel making a covenant with someone.
Haha, I changed my avatar because, yeah, I am a dad and I'm old and tired. Here is the thing with that verse, How do we know that the destruction of the city and sanctuary are not future without a doubt? The reason is, afterwards it mentions its end shall be with a flood. That is the flood that removes all wicked and raptures all the saints. I realize the literal temple and sanctuary were destroyed, but was the angel showing him 70 AD of was the angel showing him the end in our future? If the falling away happens and there is removal of all light (believers are a light, righteousness is as light etc) and nothing but darkness remains, the AC will destroy the city and the sanctuary in the future. The city and sanctuary is the body of Christ is it not? I am not so sure this is 100% without a doubt referrign to 70 AD. It has a VERY good reason to be, but we face problems regarding 2k year gaps and such that do not make sense so we must be reading it wrong somewhere. But if it is future, there is no gap because once Christ died after the 69 weeks, the next thing to happen is the destruction of Christians, the falling away etc...the martyrs. But we still need to address the focal point. Why are there 2 separate events calling for 42 months in Rev 12 and how does that apply to Daniels week? If there is still 7 full years, how much time still was there between the end of the 69th week and Christ death? As you said its not much but on my chart its 3 years. Possibly 3.3-3.5 yrs which would be most of the 1st half of the first week. As we know the weeks are continued one after another, I can only think they would stop when Christ was crucified. But again its difficult because Christ would have been on earth 1-3 years after the 69th week ended. Rev 12 said that after he went up to God's throne, the 42 mo happened to remove his church to safety. I really wanna figure this out. Of all the tings I have opinions on this is TUFF! lol |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Apr 20, 2019 23:39:11 GMT -6
I will chime in, but I don't want to argue. I will give my case for all 70 weeks fulfilled. Keep in mind that I used to be a 70 week watcher. or seeker to its start. No longer. It is not needed, nor do I find it in the book that is about the Revealing of Christ. As Believers our eyes have been opened to the fact that Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice. He caused the end to the need of sacrificial atonements using animals after His Work on the Cross. Just because they kept sacrificing animals after the Cross does not nullify that aspect of Daniel, nor does it make Daniel a liar. Also, I have this question: what are the jews mandated to do now? The Saviour/Messiah has COME already. The genealogies in two of the gospels tells us both the paternal and maternal lineage for legal reasons and many more. What more is there for the "chosen" to do? I mean that seriously.
on to verse 27:
confirm a covenant. well, using hub, the words 'he shall confirm" means simply 'strong, strengthen, perfect (make perfect)' and the covenant equating to "ordinance between monarch and his subjects." I do not get where the word create or make a treaty or even so, a peace treaty can be drawn from these Hebrew words. It says to me that this person will strengthen something between man and God. The reason for lower case pronoun would be because a "lowly man" would do this.
Is 53:2 He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.
Looking at Young's Literal translation for vs 27:
And he hath strengthened a covenant with many -- one week, and in the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease, and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.'
We are accustomed to Christ's ministry as just 3 1/2 years, so I am told. But really, what timeline are we to go on? I have seen several and they don't all agree. Jesus had to die either 30 or 33 AD because of where Passover landed according to the gospels, this having to do with the full moon. Look up Stelarium for the full moon to land on a Friday to match the upcoming sabbath they were trying to work around.
When Jesus walked the earth we was making strong the relationship between God and man. He spoke endless parables, performed miracles, healed the sick, corrected/chastised the self-righteous, did many things fulfilling the prophecies and did everything according to the Scriptures. By His death within that 70th week he strengthened the alliance with mankind, He is the one making desolate, to completion, on behalf/or reasons thereof, of the abominations, and these desolations will be poured out on those doing the abominations (against this alliance). Jesus fulfilled the entire list in Daniel 9:24. We know this now because our eyes are open to it, we "see" the spiritual implications of these things:
to shut up the transgression,
and to seal up sins,
and to cover iniquity,
and to bring in righteousness age-during,
and to seal up vision and prophet,
and to anoint the holy of holies.
If there is any part of this list NOT fulfilled, then I say yes, the 70 weeks have not been completed, but this list WAS completed by Jesus. I see the destruction of the 2nd Temple occurring after a 40 year period for repentance (falls in line with wandering around for 40 years before entering the Promised Land). Desolations were determined, as Daniel saw, because his people would not repent, and destruction ensued, his people dispersed. Even until the end desolation are still determined. Unless there is repentance.
Daniel is not a liar. He was sickened by what he saw was going to happen. so much so, I believe he saw that his people would deny the Lord's messiah and thru ch 11, and 12 we see the constant unrepentant heart of a people. Desolations are determined for them, but I am a firm believer in the power of the Lord to restore all things to Himself, otherwise, He is not all powerful, and is a liar. The commission was stated by Jesus Himself to those believing/seeing: go and make Followers of ME! That has been the Mandate ever since.
KJ, I have meditated on your thoughts, and I see the issue all has to do with how long was Jesus' ministry. I believe He ministered IN the 70th week. The reason for the delay or gap to the destruction of the temple is the long held pattern that God demonstrated many times: Mentioning 146 times in Scripture, the number 40 generally symbolizes a period of testing, trial or probation. If you count back from 70-73 AD which I believe is the duration of the destruction, it takes us back to the Cross event. Question therein lies that perhaps the death of Stephen started the clock ticking for this 40 year "probation."
So, the weeks statement says it this way to me: there will be 7 weeks and 62 weeks and 1 week. IN the midst of that one week, the messiah will be cut off. On the outskirts of the abominations that ensue after the unrepentant people remain in disobedience to this strengthened covenant by the blood of the Real Lamb, destruction will happen. Even until the end, destruction is determined. This is because this New Covenant SEALS UP the prophecies and promises that God so diligently demonstrated prior to His first Coming. There is no turning back to the law anymore, it is finished. The New Covenant is the WAY now.
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Post by venge on Apr 21, 2019 13:08:41 GMT -6
So, the weeks statement says it this way to me: there will be 7 weeks and 62 weeks and 1 week. IN the midst of that one week, the messiah will be cut off. On the outskirts of the abominations that ensue after the unrepentant people remain in disobedience to this strengthened covenant by the blood of the Real Lamb, destruction will happen. Even until the end, destruction is determined. This is because this New Covenant SEALS UP the prophecies and promises that God so diligently demonstrated prior to His first Coming. There is no turning back to the law anymore, it is finished. The New Covenant is the WAY now. So if you believe all 70 weeks are completed, how does the 42 months time of the gentiles of Revelation fit into an already fulfilled prophecy? Also, how does revelation fit into an already completed 70th week if John wrote revelation around 96 AD well after this completion? |
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Post by venge on Apr 21, 2019 13:20:27 GMT -6
Nothing makes Daniel or any other prophet a liar. Incorrect interpretations can give some people reason to call out the prophet as a liar and false prophet, and that's what happened with Daniel 7. Some in the atheist community have discovered that the typical interpretation that Daniel 7 is a repeat of Daniel 2 makes Daniel a false prophet because of the timeline.
My beef with Daniel's 70th week is that the subject matter of verses 25 and 26 is Messiah the Prince. There is no reason whatsoever to change the subject from Messiah to the anti-Christ in verse 27 and inject a 2,000 year gap to boot! That in my view not only goes against good hermeneutics but also against good grammar.
Also, in many instances the KJV isn't an accurate translation. If one takes the time to look at this in the Masoretic text you can see great flaws in the KJV translation.
This is the way I believe Daniel 9:27 should read...
"...and the city, sanctuary, and people of the coming Prince (Messiah) shall be destroyed and their end shall come suddenly by an overflowing army until the end of the war when desolation's are decreed by the Messiah." The interlinear reads: And after the weeks, sixty and two shall be cut off, Messiah. (After 69 weeks he dies)But not for himself. (For the World)And the city and the sanctuary shall destroy the people of the prince who is to come. (This part is odd, why would verse 1 mention the messiah dead but then once dead, mention him as a prince who is to come if he already died? It appears as another Prince. Are you suggesting the city and sanctuary are destroyed by Jews which were his people?)And the end of it with a flood. (If the end was with a flood, then the rapture occurred. And I don't see that as a possibility)
And till the end of the war are determined desolations. (All wars have desolations until the war stops, this is subjective. Following a "flood" reminds me of Revelation. If so, this could not be fulfilled.) |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2019 20:23:46 GMT -6
I don't see a material difference between a 2000 year gap, or a 30-35 year gap......either way there is a gap. I don't believe a gap creates an insurmountable problem for either case, since there are plenty of prophetic instances of gaps in the OT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2019 20:28:59 GMT -6
It's a mistake to apply rules of English grammar to Biblical Hebrew. Daniel 9:27 literally reads, without reordering of words or inserting prepositions:
V'higbir beriyt l'rabiyim shabua echad
"he will cause to strengthen covenant with many week one"
In Biblical Hebrew, "he" refers to the most recent antecedent pronoun, ie "the prince who is to come", not Messiah prince. Now good friends of mine believe "the prince who is to come" is Messiah. I believe otherwise, since the people who destroyed the Temple were the Romans, not Jews, but literally they were local Arab/Syrian recruits according to Josephus.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2019 20:50:57 GMT -6
Venge, I believe the 70th week is seven years, the 1260 days and the time, times, and half a time are one and the same, and represent the first half of the 70th week. The last half is 1290 days, because of the Metonic cycle, and is the length of time from Passover to Yom Kippur 3 1/2 years later. In a normal 19 year Metonic cycle, there are 2 intervals which result in a day count of 1290 from Passover to Yom Kippur over a 3 1/2 year period, the other 3 1/2 year periods result in day counts of ~1260. The intervals are from year 6-8, and 17-19.......these have 1290 day counts from Passover to Yom Kippur 3 1/2 years later. The result is that every 8 and 11 alternating years is a 7 year period when the first 3 1/2 years is 1260 days, and the last 3 1/2 years is 1290 days.
The most recent period was 2009-2016. We are currently in one from 2017-2024. The next one would be 2028-2035, then 2036-2043, then 2047-2054, alternating every 8 or 11 years etc....
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2019 21:27:23 GMT -6
Jamie, we will have to agree to disagree here. Not only does the Masoretic text contain a reference to a coming ruler, as we can see in the NASB, but also the Douay Rheims Bible, the English translation of the Latin Vulgate by Jerome, whose source texts were Hebrew texts that preceded the Masoretic text. Of course we don't have Jerome's source texts today, but the translation is:
Daniel 9:26 "After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed."
In Biblical Hebrew, the source of the MT and Douay Rheims, "he" of verse 27 refers to the most recent pronoun, which is "the ruler who will come"
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2019 22:18:24 GMT -6
No sweat Jamie, it is one method of understanding the 1260 of the first half, and the 1290 of the second half as referenced in Daniel 12. I don’t think anyone needs to understand the math...but the math is there for those who wish. The premise would be that the stop to sacrifice would occur on Passover, followed by 1290 days of Daniel 12, to end on Day of Atonement 3 1/2 years later
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Post by yardstick on Apr 22, 2019 0:07:42 GMT -6
Venge, I believe the 70th week is seven years, the 1260 days and the time, times, and half a time are one and the same, and represent the first half of the 70th week. The last half is 1290 days, because of the Metonic cycle, and is the length of time from Passover to Yom Kippur 3 1/2 years later. In a normal 19 year Metonic cycle, there are 2 intervals which result in a day count of 1290 from Passover to Yom Kippur over a 3 1/2 year period, the other 3 1/2 year periods result in day counts of ~1260. The intervals are from year 6-8, and 17-19.......these have 1290 day counts from Passover to Yom Kippur 3 1/2 years later. The result is that every 8 and 11 alternating years is a 7 year period when the first 3 1/2 years is 1260 days, and the last 3 1/2 years is 1290 days. The most recent period was 2009-2016. We are currently in one from 2017-2024. The next one would be 2028-2035, then 2036-2043, then 2047-2054, alternating every 8 or 11 years etc.... So very confusing. I've found that the correct interpretation is usually the simplest one. I really have no clue where you're going with the above post. Sometimes I think people try too hard to figure this stuff out and Daniel's 70th week has contributed greatly to it. Jamie, He is pointing out that when one looks at metonic cycles (specific types of 7 year time periods), where the first half of a 7 year period in the jewish calendar is 1260 days, but the second half of that 7 year period is 1290 days: By implication, the last of Daniel's 7 year 'weeks' should fall within one of the cycles to fit the 1260-1290 pattern. The only dates that fit those patterns are the date ranges he quoted. We are currently in a metonic cycle, where the pattern of day counts matches. This would imply an AoD and start of the 'Great' tribulation somewhere in 2020. Does this help? |
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Post by yardstick on Apr 22, 2019 0:09:12 GMT -6
No sweat Jamie, it is one method of understanding the 1260 of the first half, and the 1290 of the second half as referenced in Daniel 12. I don’t think anyone needs to understand the math...but the math is there for those who wish. The premise would be that the stop to sacrifice would occur on Passover, followed by 1290 days of Daniel 12, to end on Day of Atonement 3 1/2 years later And working backward 1260 days from that passover would put us where? |
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Post by yardstick on Apr 22, 2019 0:11:32 GMT -6
BTW, some of the implications of this discussion could place the harpazo squarely pre-wrath, rather than pre-trib...
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