rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Sept 27, 2020 6:09:21 GMT -6
rondonmonson , I loved the conclusions in your last posting. Where do you see the building of the temple as referenced in Rev. 11:1-2 and it's placement in relation to the 1335, 1290, and 1260 timeline? To be honest. the bible is not clear on the WHEN.....or the WHERE of the temple being built. We know where its supposed to reside. I see it as being built because its referenced in many places. I however think Rev. 11:1-3 is metaphoric in nature, its meant to give us the parameters of the Two-witnesses ministry. Who they are sent unto, the Jews as Malachi 4:5-6 confirms. The Outer Court of the temple was built for Gentiles, who were not allowed to come into the actual temple of God. Thus, the passage tells John to "MEASURE" the temple AND those that worship therein, but not to measure the Outer Gentile court. Its just a way of taking the measurement of who the Two-witnesses are sent unto during the end times. The Jews who are allowed to worship in the temple, the Gentiles are not measured. (LEAVE OFF or do not measure the outer court). The wailing wall where Jews pray today, is actually the outer court, the temple is no more, thus Jesus' prophecy about not one stone standing has been fulfilled.(70AD) But as per your question, all we can know, via my reading the bible, is that is there in Jerusalem. How, when, where, I have not been able to determine. God Bless.
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Post by boraddict on Sept 27, 2020 7:04:18 GMT -6
rondonmonson , in your last posting you came very close to saying that John, the writer of the BofR, is one of the two witnesses and this has been my position for a few years now. Not only John but the angel of Rev. 10 as well. It seems that the defilement of the temple as referenced in Matt. 24:15 (Dan. 9:24-27) necessitates that the temple be built; however, it could be metaphorical in Rev. 11:1-3 as you have said.
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Sept 27, 2020 8:22:59 GMT -6
rondonmonson , in your last posting you came very close to saying that John, the writer of the BofR, is one of the two witnesses and this has been my position for a few years now. Not only John but the angel of Rev. 10 as well. It seems that the defilement of the temple as referenced in Matt. 24:15 (Dan. 9:24-27) necessitates that the temple be built; however, it could be metaphorical in Rev. 11:1-3 as you have said. In my opinion, the Two-witnesses are Elijah and Moses, both seen with Jesus at the transfiguration on the Mount, just before Jesus' death. John is just told to measure the two-witnesses parameters (calling). Remember, Jesus was called only unto the Lost Sheep of Israel. The Church has been Raptured, now Israel is being called unto repentance, as a matter of fact, before the 70th week can come to pass, Israel must repent according to the Daniel 9:24-27 prophecy. Jesus even prophesied in the last few verses of Matt. chapter 23 that they (Jews) would not see him until they were saying Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord. So, the next time the Jewish people see Jesus, they will know he is their Messianic savior/the Son of the living God before he arrives, they are expecting him. Think about Moses and Elijah as per what they represent. Moses = The Law of the old testament era. Elijah = the Spirit as seen in the New Testament era. I think those are the Two-witnesses, we can only prove that Elijah is one of them via Malachi 4:5-6, but I personally see the other one as Moses. Remember, they are sent to get Israel to repent, and to bring plagues upon the world via prayer, which is basically what Moses did to Egypt.
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Post by boraddict on Sept 28, 2020 21:06:39 GMT -6
rondonmonson, please consider that the BofR is comprised of 22 chapters. Secondly, that the ending of Chapter 11 is the end of the 7 years of tribulation. As a result we can look at the BofR in a chiasmus as follows: (1-3), (4-8), 9-11, these 3 chapters describe the 3 woes that bring us to the end of the 7 years of tribulation (12-16), 17-19, these 3 chapters describe the fall of Babylon that brings us to the destruction of the beast and false prophet (20-22),
A closer look at the 3 chapters containing the 3 woes and the 3 corresponding chapters from the second half of the book is as follows:
Chapter 9 provides two woes and this (IMO) corresponds to the fall of Babylon in Chapter 17. Chapter 10 shows the great angel as does Chapter 18. Chapter 11 shows the ending as does Chapter 19.
One interesting aspect of these combinations is the chiasmus with the Savior speaking as follows:
Rev. 10:8, the Savior speaks Rev. 10:9-11:2, two witnesses Rev. 11:3, the Savior speaks
Which suggests that the Savior speaks in two places in the corresponding chapters (18-19); one in Chapter 18 and one in Chapter 19.
Rev. 18:4, the Savior speaks Rev. 18:5-19:4 Rev. 19:5, the Savior speaks
The above summation suggests a correlation between Rev. 10:9-11:2 and Rev. 18:5-19:4 and that the two witnesses are located in these verses (IMO).
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Sept 28, 2020 22:36:09 GMT -6
rondonmonson , please consider that the BofR is comprised of 22 chapters. Secondly, that the ending of Chapter 11 is the end of the 7 years of tribulation. As a result we can look at the BofR in a chiasmus as follows: (1-3), (4-8), 9-11, these 3 chapters describe the 3 woes that bring us to the end of the 7 years of tribulation (12-16), 17-19, these 3 chapters describe the fall of Babylon that brings us to the destruction of the beast and false prophet (20-22),
A closer look at the 3 chapters containing the 3 woes and the 3 corresponding chapters from the second half of the book is as follows:
Chapter 9 provides two woes and this (IMO) corresponds to the fall of Babylon in Chapter 17. Chapter 10 shows the great angel as does Chapter 18. Chapter 11 shows the ending as does Chapter 19.
One interesting aspect of these combinations is the chiasmus with the Savior speaking as follows:
Rev. 10:8, the Savior speaks Rev. 10:9-11:2, two witnesses Rev. 11:3, the Savior speaks
Which suggests that the Savior speaks in two places in the corresponding chapters (18-19); one in Chapter 18 and one in Chapter 19.
Rev. 18:4, the Savior speaks Rev. 18:5-19:4 Rev. 19:5, the Savior speaks
The above summation suggests a correlation between Rev. 10:9-11:2 and Rev. 18:5-19:4 and that the two witnesses are located in these verses (IMO). Hello sister, yes there are 22 chapters, but John didn't place them there, the KJV translators did. There were no chapters or verses written by any of the prophets or by the Disciples. So we have to remember, it was a modern effort (1500's/1600's) to try and give reference points unto passages. For the most part they seemed to have did a good job of not stopping in a place where the message was not ended yet. Rev. 11 shows the 7th Trump being blown, but just like we are told about the 2nd Woe in Rev. 11, the details about the 2nd Woe are seen in Rev. 9. Likewise, the Rev. 11s mention of the coming 3rd Woe is in reference to the 7 Vials of Rev. 16, which are the 3rd Woe. In summary Rev. 1 is about the Glory of the Majestic Savior. Rev. 2 and 3 is the Church Age. Rev. 4 and 5 is the Church/Bride in Heaven before the Seals are opened. Rev. 6 is Jesus prophesying about what is nigh at hand as he opens the 7 Seals, once the 7 seals are off, the Judgments will start. Rev. 8, 9, 15&16 (really just 16, but I think 15&16 were meant as one continuous reading.) This ends Satan's Rule over Mankind via Rev. 16:19. The Angel even says IT IS DONE just before REV. 16:19. All the other chapters happen during those three (4) chapters, Rev. 8, 9 and 16, which I call the Judgment Chapters. Its all destroyed in Rev. 16:19, in verse 17 the angel declares, IT IS DONE. Every other chapter, save 20-22 which of course comes after Jesus' return, are chapters that come to pass during Rev. 8, 9 or 16 (42 months of God's Wrath which coincides with the Beasts reign) Rev. 17 is the Beast/his kings/Europe, destroying the Harlot Religions, since they desire Beast worship, or a one world religion, there is no room for Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. etc. so these Kings/Europe/Beast judge the Harlot for God In Rev. 17:17 it says God placed it in their hearts to do His will !! The only False Religion not judged will be Beast Worship, and of course Jesus will judge that when he arrives. This happens as soon as the Beast comes to power however, (Rev. 8 would be my guess). Rev. 18 is indeed Babylon (World) being Judged by God, this will last 42 months of course. In reality, Rev. 12 and 13 lasts 42 months. From Rev. 8 to Rev. 16. Washing clothes gotta run, God bless sister.
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Post by venge on Sept 29, 2020 6:38:41 GMT -6
rondonmonson , You said, Please show me in Revelation 13 where the Anti-Christ as a man, and the False prophet as a man are seen together. rondonmonson , I asked this question above. Your response was below: That did not answer my question. You only explained that you believe 2 men hold didnt positions of power. You dont prove this theory. 1. Can you please show me scripture that says the beast that rises out of the sea is a man so that I may study it. 2. Can you please show scripture where the Anti-Christ and the False Prophet are seen together. Here is another. Was any other "beast of the sea" a man?
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
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Post by rondonmonson on Sept 29, 2020 11:39:10 GMT -6
rondonmonson , You said, Please show me in Revelation 13 where the Anti-Christ as a man, and the False prophet as a man are seen together. rondonmonson , I asked this question above. Your response was below: That did not answer my question. You only explained that you believe 2 men hold didnt positions of power. You dont prove this theory. 1. Can you please show me scripture that says the beast that rises out of the sea is a man so that I may study it. 2. Can you please show scripture where the Anti-Christ and the False Prophet are seen together. Here is another. Was any other "beast of the sea" a man? Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard(Greece), and his feet were as the feet of a bear(Persia), and his mouth as the mouth of a lion(Babylon): and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death(Rome); and his deadly wound was healed(Anti-Christ/Man of Sin): and all the world wondered after the beast. 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. So, this man is one of the 7 Heads, in fact he is the 7th Head. That is why the 10 crowns are on the kings, whereas the Dragon in Rev. 12 has 7 Crowns on the 7 Heads. Satan the Dragon is over him, (he gives him his power and authority), and he is over the kings of Europe. He is a man, with a mouth, Daniel 7:11 tells us this also, and he is cast into hell, after his BODY is destroyed. Rev. 19:20 also shows him being cast into hell. So, he's a man. When he conquers Jerusalem/THE MANY, he becomes the Beast which only infers animalist dominance. Rev. 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, So, this Second MAN which is a Beast power also, has to dominate something other than Government, because the Anti-Christ does that. Notice, this man comes up out of the earth, not the sea as the Gentile Beasts all did in Dan. 7, thus he's a Jewish man. He looks like a lamb (man of God) but speaks like a Dragon (man of Satan). Think, Jewish High Priest. Think Jason under Antiochus as in a TYPE. He CAUSES all people on earth to Worship the First Beast, that tells us he is placed over Religion. He dominates in the Religion arena. He has DARK POWERS (of Satan.....He spoke like a Dragon). 14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. You have two different Beasts, one is a Man over Nations. The other is the False Prophet (Man) Beast placed over Religion by the Anti-Christ Beast. We see them both cast into hell, Kingdoms do not get cast into hell, men do. Rev. 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. Dan. 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. These two are men, who are cast into hell. The Little Horn has a body, he is killed, he is then cast into hell, as is the False Prophet Beast. (Second Beast). And yes, the other four Beasts started out as KINGS/Men also. Daniel 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. All of them were MEN to start out with, just like all of them are REDUCED from Kingdoms to Kings who fall in Rev. 17, in order to let us know the last Beast will be a Man, with a mouth, who never passes his kingdom on to anyone else, thus he himself is the Beast and he himself is thus cast into hellfire. God Bless....
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Post by venge on Sept 29, 2020 15:57:05 GMT -6
rondonmonson , I asked this question above. Your response was below: That did not answer my question. You only explained that you believe 2 men hold didnt positions of power. You dont prove this theory. 1. Can you please show me scripture that says the beast that rises out of the sea is a man so that I may study it. 2. Can you please show scripture where the Anti-Christ and the False Prophet are seen together. Here is another. Was any other "beast of the sea" a man? Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard(Greece), and his feet were as the feet of a bear(Persia), and his mouth as the mouth of a lion(Babylon): and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death(Rome); and his deadly wound was healed(Anti-Christ/Man of Sin): and all the world wondered after the beast. 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. So, this man is one of the 7 Heads, in fact he is the 7th Head. That is why the 10 crowns are on the kings, whereas the Dragon in Rev. 12 has 7 Crowns on the 7 Heads. Satan the Dragon is over him, (he gives him his power and authority), and he is over the kings of Europe. He is a man, with a mouth, Daniel 7:11 tells us this also, and he is cast into hell, after his BODY is destroyed. Rev. 19:20 also shows him being cast into hell. So, he's a man. When he conquers Jerusalem/THE MANY, he becomes the Beast which only infers animalist dominance. Rev. 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, So, this MAN which is a Beast power also, has to dominate something other than Government, because the Anti-Christ does that. Notice, this man comes up out of the earth, not the sea as the Gentile Beasts all did in Dan. 7, thus he's a Jewish man. He looks like a lamb (man of God) but speaks like a Dragon (man of Satan). Think, Jewish High Priest. Think Jason under Antiochus TYPE. He CAUSES all people on earth to Worship the First Beast, that tells us he is placed over Religion. He dominates in the Religion arena. He has DARK POWERS (of Satan.....He spoke like a Dragon). 14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. You have two different Beasts, one is a Man over Nations. The other is the False Prophet (Man) Beast placed over Religion by the Anti-Christ Beast. We see them cast into hell, Kingdoms do not get cast into hell, men do. Rev. 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. Dan. 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. These two are men, who ae cast into hell. The Little Horn has a body, he is killed, he is then cast into hell, as is the False Prophet Beast. (Second Beast). And yes, the other four Beasts started out as KINGS/Men also. Rev. 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. All of them were MEN to start out with, just like all of them are REDUCED from Kingdoms to Kings who fall in Rev. 17, in order to let us know the last Beast will be a Man, with a mouth, who never passes his kingdom on to anyone else, thus he himself is the Beast and he himself is thus cast into hellfire. God Bless.... rondonmonson , You said: How is the man of sin a head when you labeled a head (Rome). If the man of sin is a head, then he isnt a leader because only the horns have crowns. The horns are men who lead and have authority, not the heads. So your first statement above is incorrect by your own words. He is in fact one of the horns, not the heads per Daniel 7 and Rev 13. The horn is identified as the one who speaks great things. And regarding this horn, Daniel learns more of him to identify him as the AC. The AC is not a head, he is a horn that wears the crown of authority. Then you said regarding the man of sin: Unbiblical statement. It is an opinion. Then you said: The comment, "so he's a man" is your opinion. let me first post that verse for readers. Now, what is the beast of the sea? Youre saying a man but you have shown no scripture that says that. The Beast of the Sea is not a man, that has been a great error past throughout the Church till today. Please allow me to demonstrate. Daniel 7 tells that war is coming to God's people in the form of great beasts; The great sea is implied the kingdoms of the earth made up of peoples of every nation. In this sea of mankind, 4 Kingdoms come from the sea. Men are never risen from the sea in scripture, only the earth. The text goes on to identify each of the 4 Beasts. 1. The 1st Beast from the sea (Babylon Empire): 2. The 2nd Beast of the sea (Media-Persia Empire): 3. The 3rd Beast of the sea (Grecian Empire): So, the first 3 Beasts of the Sea were all Kingdoms. Not men. Let me continue... 4. 4th Beast of the Sea (Unknown Empire): The 4th Beast of the sea, like the 3 before it, is another Kingdom. Scripture shows us that and it tells us that below... Not a man, a Kingdom. Now, I will get to the man of sin. The confusion lay with the wording of scripture. Each Beast of the sea (Kingdom) was ruled by a King. 1. Babylon was ruled by Nebuchadnezzer 2. Persian was ruled by Cyrus the Great 3. Grecian was ruled by Alexander the Great before it split to his Generals. 4. The 4th Kingdom will be ruled by the 11th horn which we identify as the man of sin. Now, this is what the scripture says: So where does the man of sin come in? As I shows above, each Beast of the sea is ruled by a King. Each King that ruled the beast of the sea, came from the earth! Kingdoms rise out of the great sea of the world made up of peoples of many nations. And the rulers of these Kingdoms rise out of the earth. It just so happens we have 2 Beasts in Revelation. 1. Beast of the Sea which Daniel 7 proves is a Kingdom. 2. Beast of the Earth which we call the False Prophet and Daniel shows is the little horn - which means the Beast of the Earth in Revelation is the AC He is the mouth piece for the Kingdom in Rev 13 The Kingdom was thought dead, it had received a death wound. As an analogy...imagine if the Third Reich came back. It started up on Europe and came back taking similar lands...didnt we destroy them long ago...but if they came back, its as if it was resurrected. That is how Revelation is addressing it. The Kingdom is worshipped as one would glorify Nationalistic pride. How horrible it is that something that was ugly and evil comes back because men's hearts are twisted...and when it does, they glorify it. When you understand that the Beast of the Sea is a Kingdom as shown in verses 4, 5, 6 and 23 and the man of sin is a horn that comes from the earth, not the sea, then you can understand the death wound that one of its heads (plural) receives and the meaning of the 8 heads. The beast of the earth is the ONLY man of the 2 beasts. He is the only "King" that rises out of the earth per Dan 7:17. He is the False Prophet. The same is the AC. There are not 2, but only 1 and Daniel 7 makes that crystal clear.
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Post by boraddict on Sept 29, 2020 22:08:13 GMT -6
Thank you rondonmonson , and while it is true that the chapters and verses of the BofR were added after the book was written; I think those men and women were inspired in their work. So while I do find things out of whack just a little from time to time, the overall chapter and verse work is very good if not remarkable. So continuing with my comparison of the two witness section at Rev. 10:8-11:3 and Rev. 18:4-19:5 as follows: 10:8, Jesus instructs John to take the little book from the angel 10:9, John goes to the angel and asks for the book and the angel instructs John to take it and eat it up 10:10, John takes and eats the book (bitter) 10:11, The angel instructs John that he must prophesy again before many people and nations and tongues and kings 11:1, John is given a reed like a rod (sweet) and is instructed by the angel to measure the temple for them that worship therein 11:2, John is instructed by the angel not to measure outside the temple that the gentiles will tread for 42 months 11:3, Jesus states that he will give power to his two witnesses to prophesy for 1260 days Okay, so now the comparison section from Chapters 18 and 19 as follows: 18:4, Jesus instructs his people to come out from Babylon 18:5-8, Babylon's sins and rewards are stated 18:9-19, the kings and merchants mourn (bitter) for Babylon 18:20-24, the prophets and apostles are told to rejoice over Babylon's destruction and the mighty angel casts a stone like a great mill stone 19:1, the people of God rejoice (sweet) over Babylon's destruction 19:2-4, God judged the great whore 19:5, Jesus instructs that his people are to praise our God From the above Jesus, John, and the angel are mentioned in the verses, and from this it seems reasonable that Jesus' two witnesses are John and the angel. I do not see anyone else mentioned here except for groups of people, but I do see that John must prophesy and the angel casts the stone. One more thing that I would like to mention is that from the very beginning of the BofR the two witnesses are with Lord Jesus (Rev. 1:1). Another "one more thing," the two witnesses to the prophecy of the BofR is the angel and John (Rev. 22:8). These are the Savior's two witnesses and they will be witnesses to the end of their lives as is shown in Chapter 11 (IMO). No other names are given in the BofR as being the two witnesses.
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Post by boraddict on Sept 30, 2020 21:09:05 GMT -6
venge, there is a lot of detail in your last posting to rondonmonson. Please take me with baby steps about what you are saying. 1) The beasts of the sea are kingdoms that have a kings? 2) The beasts of the earth are the kings over the kingdoms? 3) The beasts of the sea are kingdoms that have beasts of the earth as their kings? Just small steps because I get lost if the posting is long.
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Post by venge on Oct 1, 2020 8:31:38 GMT -6
venge , there is a lot of detail in your last posting to rondonmonson . Please take me with baby steps about what you are saying. 1) The beasts of the sea are kingdoms that have a kings? 2) The beasts of the earth are the kings over the kingdoms? 3) The beasts of the sea are kingdoms that have beasts of the earth as their kings? Just small steps because I get lost if the posting is long. boraddict , Good morning! In reply to your post above: 1) The beasts of the sea are kingdoms (came out of the sea) that have a kings (came out of the earth)? Yes2) The beasts of the earth are the kings over the kingdoms (that come out of the sea) ? Yes3) The beasts of the sea are kingdoms that have beasts of the earth as their kings? YesDaniel 7 makes that crystal clear. There is no scripture that shows the man of sin contemporary with a false prophet as 2 separate individuals anywhere in scripture. Daniel 7 shows that each Kingdom was ruled by a King. In the last Kingdom, it only mentions the horn that rises up after the first 10 horns. No false prophet. In Revelation, we only have 2 beasts as well. The false prophet, the beast of the earth (AC) and the beast of the sea.In Rev 19, where is the AC who needs to be thrown into the fire in this passage?1. Beast of the sea 2. False prophet No one other. The beast used in this verse is from the one in the verse before it. The word is translated: 2342 thēríon – the generic term for wild animal ("beast"); (figuratively) a brutal ("bestial") nature.
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Post by boraddict on Oct 1, 2020 10:09:53 GMT -6
venge , Okay, so your take is that Rev. 19:20 reads that the kingdom (beast of the sea) and the false prophet (beast of the earth) are included. This would be the false prophet and his kingdom? Or rather the false prophet and his government and followers?
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Oct 1, 2020 12:11:19 GMT -6
rondonmonson , You said: How is the man of sin a head when you labeled a head (Rome). If the man of sin is a head, then he isnt a leader because only the horns have crowns. The horns are men who lead and have authority, not the heads. So your first statement above is incorrect by your own words. He is in fact one of the horns, not the heads per Daniel 7 and Rev 13. The horn is identified as the one who speaks great things. And regarding this horn, Daniel learns more of him to identify him as the AC. The AC is not a head, he is a horn that wears the crown of authority. Then you said regarding the man of sin: Unbiblical statement. It is an opinion. Then you said: The comment, "so he's a man" is your opinion. let me first post that verse for readers. Now, what is the beast of the sea? Youre saying a man but you have shown no scripture that says that. The Beast of the Sea is not a man, that has been a great error past throughout the Church till today. Please allow me to demonstrate. Daniel 7 tells that war is coming to God's people in the form of great beasts; The great sea is implied the kingdoms of the earth made up of peoples of every nation. In this sea of mankind, 4 Kingdoms come from the sea. Men are never risen from the sea in scripture, only the earth. The text goes on to identify each of the 4 Beasts. 1. The 1st Beast from the sea (Babylon Empire): 2. The 2nd Beast of the sea (Media-Persia Empire): 3. The 3rd Beast of the sea (Grecian Empire): So, the first 3 Beasts of the Sea were all Kingdoms. Not men. Let me continue... 4. 4th Beast of the Sea (Unknown Empire): The 4th Beast of the sea, like the 3 before it, is another Kingdom. Scripture shows us that and it tells us that below... Not a man, a Kingdom. Now, I will get to the man of sin. The confusion lay with the wording of scripture. Each Beast of the sea (Kingdom) was ruled by a King. 1. Babylon was ruled by Nebuchadnezzer 2. Persian was ruled by Cyrus the Great 3. Grecian was ruled by Alexander the Great before it split to his Generals. 4. The 4th Kingdom will be ruled by the 11th horn which we identify as the man of sin. Now, this is what the scripture says: So where does the man of sin come in? As I shows above, each Beast of the sea is ruled by a King. Each King that ruled the beast of the sea, came from the earth! Kingdoms rise out of the great sea of the world made up of peoples of many nations. And the rulers of these Kingdoms rise out of the earth. It just so happens we have 2 Beasts in Revelation. 1. Beast of the Sea which Daniel 7 proves is a Kingdom. 2. Beast of the Earth which we call the False Prophet and Daniel shows is the little horn - which means the Beast of the Earth in Revelation is the AC He is the mouth piece for the Kingdom in Rev 13 The Kingdom was thought dead, it had received a death wound. As an analogy...imagine if the Third Reich came back. It started up on Europe and came back taking similar lands...didnt we destroy them long ago...but if they came back, its as if it was resurrected. That is how Revelation is addressing it. The Kingdom is worshipped as one would glorify Nationalistic pride. How horrible it is that something that was ugly and evil comes back because men's hearts are twisted...and when it does, they glorify it. When you understand that the Beast of the Sea is a Kingdom as shown in verses 4, 5, 6 and 23 and the man of sin is a horn that comes from the earth, not the sea, then you can understand the death wound that one of its heads (plural) receives and the meaning of the 8 heads. The beast of the earth is the ONLY man of the 2 beasts. He is the only "King" that rises out of the earth per Dan 7:17. He is the False Prophet. The same is the AC. There are not 2, but only 1 and Daniel 7 makes that crystal clear. Hello brother Venge, I was fasting and praying for our nation (Me USA) and world leaders Tuesday, then I spent last night on this site, only to have my answers all disappear after spending a couple of hours after I took a wee little break and came back to find we have no auto save here, or at least it never got saved. So, off we go again LOL. There are seven heads to the Figurative Beast, its not a real entity, its like God drew us a sketch in which all these Beast (animal like dominance) ruled over the area in Question, which is the Mediterranean Sea Region (MSR) and Israel, it thus represents Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome. Then there was a 2000 some odd year period of time (70AD to 1948) where there was no Beast nor could there be a Beast because there was no Israel to Beast over, the bible is about Israel, everything is juxtaposed as the Beast being a power that rules over Israel, and that of course happens in the MSR. Israel was a Dead Men's Bones, God stated in Ezekiel 37 that he was going to forsake them, then in the very end times breathe life back into those bones, so only at that time (end time/NOW) can the Figurative Beast become a Beast again over Israel and the MSR, and that can only happen after the Rapture (time of the Gentiles come full). Thus there are 7 Beast Heads, the last Beast head is the Anti-Christ, he is over the 10 (Europe) kings which freely give their power unto him Rev. 17:12-13. Thus he himself has all the power, the bible says so. The other 6 were Beast Kingdoms, they all started out as Kings/Beasts but eventually passed their kingdoms on, this Beast will never do that, he will be cast straight into hell as Dan. 7:11 says. Just like Satan is over every kingdom on this earth, like Luke chapter 4 says, he is also over the MSR, thus the CROWNS are placed over all those whom he rules over. It designates the Dragon (Rev 12) as Satan, the god of this world. Likewise in Rev. 13 we see the CROWNS on the 10 kings, because its showing whom the Anti-Christ is ruling over, they give their power unto the Beast/Man of Sin/Little Horn etc. He is a Little Horn, which is being juxtaposed against Kingdom Horns that were Beasts over the MSR and Israel, thus those 10 Kings (Fractured Europe) which only come together in the very end times under this ONE MAN, would be more like midget horns. They never ruled as ONE NATION, much less conquered the MSR and Israel. But this man does, because they give him power, and he then Conquers the whole MSR and Israel, see Daniel 11:40-43, he is not allowed to Conquer the Petra/Bozrah area. All horns represent power/kings, but a Beast power of a Horn being juxtaposed against a Little Horn (which means he's a little Beast by comparison to the other Beasts) or a MAN Beast. whereas they all passed their kingdoms on, and on, and on. The 10 kings being horns just mean they ruled over each king a small kingdom in Europe, they were never Beast Powers over the MSR and Israel like this man. Its all about juxtaposing them against who is being spoken of in the contextual situations. Correct, he is the Anti-Christ, and thus the last Beast Head of this figurative entity which has 7 Heads (Kingdoms/powers) that rule over the MSR and Israel from Egypt to Rome, then we get the 2000 some odd year Church Age where the gates of hell can not prevail against the Church, thus we the Church delivered the Mortal Wound, after the Church is raptured, this Beast Entity will be allowed to form as a power again over the MSR and Israel, by conquering them, see Daniel 11:40-43. I explain above why he's a head. He is the Last Beast Head, he never passes his kingdom on thus he's by comparison, a Little Horn (Power). Sure he is, the scriptures clearly state he comes out of the Fourth Beasts Head which was Rome. The greatest Kingdom in the region was a Beast over the MSR and Israel, I do not get why people try to avoid this, I mean I know why, they want to make Islam that Beast when its not, ONE IS............not will be in 700 years. Jesus was crucified via the Fourth Beast tumult. He even prophesied in John 5:43 that the Pharisees/Jews would not accept him that came in the Fathers name, but would accept another that came in their own name, which happened in 70 AD, the Jews thought the Messiah was a political hero, thus they no doubt put forth men who claimed to be the messiah, because they knew the real Messiah is supposed to save them from the Fourth Beast. If they had repented and accepted Jesus he would have saved them in 70 AD and the Kingdom would have came unto them then, but the Daniel 9:24-27 prophesy has a condition, Israel has to repent before the punishment can subside. Thus, the coming Anti-Christ will come to power out of the 10 (which means a fractured Europe). God uses the number 10 to stand in for completeness, in Rev. 2:10 it is said the Church of Smyrna will have tribulation 10 days, which means for the whole unknown length of the church age. The 10 Commandments is a stand in for the complete laws of God, even though there are many more. There were 10 virgin brides which stands for the complete number of Christians, seems Jesus is saying about 50 percent are real Christians, he says else where he will tell many to depart from me for I never knew you. That 50 percent number seems to be reaffirmed in the one is TAKEN and one is LEFT passage. So, God uses the number 10 for a completeness comparison. The 10 kings stands for a fractured Europe over some 2000 years, or however long it was fractured after Rome fell (1600 or so years).In the book of Revelation the number 7 is used in the same way, there are 7 eyes and 7 spirits, and that means God is everywhere and sees all things. The Beast is a MAN according to scriptures. Dan. 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. 12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. The Little Horn/BEAST speaks. He has a BODY, that gets DESTROYED, he gets KILLED and then he's going to get cast into HELL. The OTHER BEASTS were unlike this MAN Beast who is cast into hell, Kingdoms do not get cast into hell like he did. But verse 12 explains what happened to the other Beasts. They lost DOMIONION as a Beast Power over the MSR, Israel etc. and thus their lives (as entities) were naturally prolonged, because Nations can't be done away with, they lose power, and may be subjugated, but they will of course remain around. Alexander the Great made Babylon his home and died there (Its deserted now), Persia is Iran, Greece is still around, and Rome is Italy, basically. But this last beast is CAST INTO HELL !! He's a man brother. Rev. 19:20 affirms this. Satan is NOT CAST INTO HELL, he is placed in the Bottomless Pit for 1000 years. Dan. 7:11 says THE BEAST...........has a BODY............and that he is KILLED.............and the cast into HELL. The Great Sea is the Mediterranean Sea brother, where Israel and the other nations that every one of the kingdoms on a map are shown to have conquered, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome, even Egypt and Assyria. The bible is about Israel. Its not about the Pacific Ocean, Atlantic Ocean, Indian Ocean etc., its about the Great Mediterranean Sea, as the known biblical world was all about. Go look at a map, all of these kingdoms arose and Conquered/Ruled/Beasted over the Mediterranean Sea Region. God never relayed Alexander the greats India expedition unto us, nor were the Roman vs. Greek struggles spoken of very much, only in passing in relation to Antiochus being stopped from conquering Egypt, and that is spoken of to show why he was so ANGRY that he took it out on 60,000 Jews and had them killed. Its all about Israel and the MSR. The Great Sea represent Gentile Kings ruling (BEAST POWER) over the MSR and Israel. Thus they are Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome from Daniels time on, and this will include the coming Anti-Christ/Beast whom arises out of the Fourth Beasts Head (Europe). The fourth beast was not Islam, nor can it be Islam. Islam was never over Israel, God dispersed the Jews for nigh 2000 years, the bible is about Israel. Notice, all the Beasts ruled over Israel, Islam cant be a Beast, there was no Israel again until 1948, when God breathed on those Dead Bones to quicken them again. The earth in Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 kind of means the same thing even though one is not written in Greek and the other is, in Daniel 7 it means low (earth) in Revelation 13 it means region or terrain, but its pretty much the same thing, the difference in the passages being the contextualized "points" that are being made in each instance. Of course all kings are living on land, but the Sea (MSR) is used to point out the AREA being spoken of that will be Ruled over or Beasted over. In Revelation 13, the Beast again arises out of the Sea, but the 2nd Beast doesn't, meaning he is not over the Governments, but Religion instead, which is why it states he has two horns like a Lamb (he's a Religious guy) but speaks like a Dragon (Satan's Servant so to speak). We know that Satan gives the 1st Beast his power and Seat, and we know both have DARK POWERS. So, one is from the region that is being spoken of already and the other conquers the Mediterranean Sea Region. Ones over Governments, the other is placed over (Beasts over)religion by the 1st Beast. (He causes all great and small to worship the IMAGE of the 1st Beast or else they will die).The MSR and Israel is what God is pointing towards as per being Conquered, not the whole world per se. No matter how much they Conquer elsewhere, the story is about Israel and the Mediterranean Sea Region. (7 Headed Beast.........who all Conquered Israel and the MSR).Daniel in Dan. 7:17 shows that all four Beasts were at one time KINGS that arose first. Thus each Beast became a Kingdom, the last Beast will never pass his Kingdom on to another, he rules for a very short 42 months as the Beast and then is cast into hell as Dan. 7:11 says. (Rev. 19:20 says the exact same thing). The last Beast is a MAN, Rev. 17 REDUCES the Kingdoms to kings that FALL so we will know that the last Beast is the only Beast that both ARISES and FALLS unlike any of the other Beasts. Its pretty basic if you look at it in a linear fashion brother from 15,000 feet in the air. There have been 7 Kingdoms that ruled over Israel AND the MSR at the same time. 1.) Egypt 2.) Assyria 3.) Babylon 4.) Persia 5.) Greece 6.) Rome Israel is then as Dead Men's Bones for 2000 some odd years they can't be ruled over as a collective nation because they are not deemed a nation by God anymore. Then God raises up those Dead Men's Bones and in 1948 Israel becomes a Nation once again. After the Rapture there will be a KING like the Dan. 7:17 FOUR KINGS who arose as Beasts. The difference is, he never passes his Kingdom on, so he BEASTS over Israel and the whole MSR (maybe other nations but this is about Israel, what Alexander the Great did in India is not really relevant either). But, he also FALLS as Dan. 7:11 and Rev. 19:20 show us, he is cast into HELLFIRE and called a BEAST in other verses. 7.) Anti-Christ/Little Horn/Man of Sin/ BEAST. He ARISES & FALLS all in a 42-month time span. Rome received the MORTAL WOUND of the Figurative Beast, its just a SKETCH of God, just like there is no actual Statue of Gold/Silver/Bronze/Iron and Iron & Clay and 10 toes. They both represent 7 Kingdoms who ARISE and then FALL as POWERS over Israel and the Mediterranean Sea Region. The Church Age divides them into 6 and 1, with a 2000 some odd year gulf in between each of them. Daniel 7:11 and Rev. 19:20 says different brother. God bless. Let me HIT POST before it disappears. SMILE.
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Oct 1, 2020 12:27:15 GMT -6
Thank you rondonmonson , and while it is true that the chapters and verses of the BofR were added after the book was written; I think those men and women were inspired in their work. So while I do find things out of whack just a little from time to time, the overall chapter and verse work is very good if not remarkable. So continuing with my comparison of the two witness section at Rev. 10:8-11:3 and Rev. 18:4-19:5 as follows: 10:8, Jesus instructs John to take the little book from the angel 10:9, John goes to the angel and asks for the book and the angel instructs John to take it and eat it up 10:10, John takes and eats the book (bitter) 10:11, The angel instructs John that he must prophesy again before many people and nations and tongues and kings 11:1, John is given a reed like a rod (sweet) and is instructed by the angel to measure the temple for them that worship therein 11:2, John is instructed by the angel not to measure outside the temple that the gentiles will tread for 42 months 11:3, Jesus states that he will give power to his two witnesses to prophesy for 1260 days Okay, so now the comparison section from Chapters 18 and 19 as follows: 18:4, Jesus instructs his people to come out from Babylon 18:5-8, Babylon's sins and rewards are stated 18:9-19, the kings and merchants mourn (bitter) for Babylon 18:20-24, the prophets and apostles are told to rejoice over Babylon's destruction and the mighty angel casts a stone like a great mill stone 19:1, the people of God rejoice (sweet) over Babylon's destruction 19:2-4, God judged the great whore 19:5, Jesus instructs that his people are to praise our God From the above Jesus, John, and the angel are mentioned in the verses, and from this it seems reasonable that Jesus' two witnesses are John and the angel. I do not see anyone else mentioned here except for groups of people, but I do see that John must prophesy and the angel casts the stone. One more thing that I would like to mention is that from the very beginning of the BofR the two witnesses are with Lord Jesus (Rev. 1:1). Another "one more thing," the two witnesses to the prophecy of the BofR is the angel and John (Rev. 22:8). These are the Savior's two witnesses and they will be witnesses to the end of their lives as is shown in Chapter 11 (IMO). No other names are given in the BofR as being the two witnesses. Hello sister, the Angel preaches the Gospel to the whole world, the 144,000 are not super preachers as many think. The Two-witnesses testify to the Jews only, however they will probably make it on Worldwide TV since it says the whole world rejoices at their deaths. (Worldwide TV). Jesus likewise was sent only to the Jews but he also reached the whole world. Elijah is not mentioned either, but we can understand who it is via Malachi 4:5-6 and we then see both Elijah and Moses at the transfiguration, which means both men, unlike all other men, have been translated already into God's presence. To me, that just shouts out Two-witnesses, some agree, some disagree. If I were given the choice of whom do you think should preach repentance unto Israel/Jews in the end times, I would pick Moses and Elijah. One taken by God, one who delivered his people already from Egypt one time. Its just the wow factor, if I were talking to an angel, of course I would understand its significance, but if I was talking to Moses, or even just hearing him preach, I would get chills knowing he was a mere man just like me and overcame via his faith in God, Amen. IMHO, the servants in Rev. 1:1 are pointing unto us, the Church. John gave the Churches the Revelation of Jesus, and we are his servants. John is a Witness unto the UNCOVERING/Revelation, which God/Jesus gave him. God Bless.
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Post by venge on Oct 1, 2020 13:34:32 GMT -6
rondonmonson , Please do not use your own opinion and make it seem as if its scripture. If you want to base your opinion on scripture, show me with scripture. You are not doing that. You said: Again, there are 10 horns on the beast and another horn comes (11th horn). The 7 heads already existed BEFORE the 11th horn comes. The heads exists on this beast and do not represent horns. You have yet to show me scripture that says the heads are horns or could be a horn. Notice that the heads do not wear crowns (they used to). The head of this beast doesnt have a crown, yet the horns wear crowns. How can a horn be the AC and its head be the AC if one wears a crown and one doesnt? Look at that logically. The Beast is already in existence, before the 11 horn comes, and its head is resurrected. The AC has not shown up till the 10 horns rise in this kingdom. That implies the Kingdom already existed, then 10 horns rise and later another horn rises. It is an impossibility the head and horn are the same. You are using this explain your position which goes against what scripture says. Scripture doesnt link the head to the horns, rather it actually teaches the opposite as I show you above. Your opinion that there is a "Mediterranean Sea Region (MSR)" coalition of sorts is your opinion, not based upon scriptural fact because it hasnt happened yet. Do not say its scriptural when it doesnt exist in scripture. At least people who writes books for a living on these things explain its their opinion, they state what they think are the facts based upon history, location and other things. Its still an opinion based upon a theory....but not fact because its future prophecy. Again, another opinion and not a fact. We have people who look at this site and when you post an opinion and make it to be a fact, it does a disservice to the readers. I have told you this before, scripture does not say who the last Kingdom is. Some think Rome, Some think Greece, some think Arab nations, Ive even heard America. But all opinions, which are fine in themselves. This is why God gave us identifiers such as: part Lion, bear and leopard. Each described how the previous Kingdoms parts acted. The bear destroyed by stomping it into nothingness. The leopard was fast and the Lion devoured his enemies. One again, look at what scripture said. 1. I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake (the beast of the earth) 2. I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. (John changes from the beast of the earth to the beast of the sea) That #2 is proven when it says: As you said, all the other beasts are previous Kingdoms that lost their crown, were defeated and remove yet the lives of those nations and peoples still exist, the empires and their power do not. These "as concerning the other beasts" reference the beast in the previous verse that John moved to the last beast which is the beast of the sea...the last Kingdom. The Kingdom is destroyed and removed never to come again. Do not mix up the beast of the earth with the beast of the sea. Rev 19:20 confirms 2 were thrown into fire. One is identified as the false prophet which is the beast of the earth. That leaves only 1 other beast which is the beast of the sea and Daniel 7:23 tells us the 4th beast is that 4th Kingdom that rises. The Kingdom and the Prophet of that Kingdom are thrown into fire to be destroyed and removed. That same verse gives us 2 of the 3 identifiers too of the part Lion, bear but not the leopard. It says it will devour (lion), trample down and break it (bear). Those are previous Kingdom qualities. Not a man. The Bible is only about the area by Israel yet the believers were sent out into all nations.... Lets look at a parable shall we. Are the wicked and the Just only around the Mediterranean sea? Obviously not. The are throughout the entire globe. The fish represent people and the sea they live in represent the world as vast as a sea. Opinion. If Rome is the 6th head as some believe, it would be the resurrected 7th head, but there is an eighth head. Rome would need to be the 7th head in order to be a resurrected eighth head. The Greek reads of Rev 17:11 "The beast which was and not is also itself an eighth and is of the seven.." There were only 7 heads. As One appeared to have a death wound and it lay dead...it comes back as if it is resurrected thereby being the 8th. 7 heads where 1 head comes back twice. Rome was not the 7th head but the 6th during John's life. If Rome (is during John's life), and 5 had fallen previously, Rome was 6th. One still had to come AFTER Rome before a resurrected head could come back. Is the beast of the 7th one or of all 7? If its ofthe 7th head, its not Rome as Rome was 6th. If the beast is of all 7, then Rome is part of the beast as well as the other 6...but its still isnt just Rome. Context is important. No they dont. Dan 7:3 plainly tells us 4 beast come from the sea and they detail in the following verses each is a Kingdom. That is backed up in Daniel 7:23 Daniel 7:17 explains the 4 beast that were detailed in Dan 7:3-7 are controlled by beasts that rise out of the earth. Rev 13:3 says: And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. Youre implying the beast of the sea is a man....how many heads does a man have? Do men resurrect themselves? Has there ever been a man since Christ to resurrect? You are implying the man of sin is the 8th head and that he as being the eighth head comes back. That goes against scripture. All men are appointed once to die, then the judgment. Man ONLY comes from the earth. Not the sea. Nations are formed from the sea. What about Jer 51:42 This was not the Mediterranean. Or Ezekiel 26:3 The nations are in the sea and the waves are the peoples and armies of those nations. I'm sorry, but scripture is clear. I'll stick with scripture.
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