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Post by boraddict on Nov 18, 2018 11:12:04 GMT -6
When the BoR is taken as a whole it divides in the center having 11 chapters in the first half of the book and 11 chapters in the second half of the book as follows:
Chapters 1-11
Center
Chapters 12-22
I have often wondered why the book does not have 12 chapters in each of the two halves, since 12 is an important number in scripture. I mean, what does the number 11 have to do with anything; but the number 12 represents the tribes of Israel and so forth. Other than that, I can not think of anything exciting about the BoR as a whole; but the two halves, now that's a different story. I do need to mention that all the chapters of the book are chronological; however, they do not flow chronologically across the book center from Chapter 11 to Chapter 12. Nor does the chronological aspects of the chapters flow from Chapter 3 to 4, or Chapter 12 to 13, or Chapter 14 to 15, or Chapter 16 to 17, or Chapter 19 to 20. This indicates several starting points that appear to be consistent with the overall character of the book. That is, everything in the book is a starting point. I wish we could see it in 3D to see this phenomenon, but until we have some method of showing that, we are compelled to look at the book in its quadratic form as a 3D book in a 2D format. However, I often think of the book in its expanded format with a verse hanging in space with linking connections to several other verses. It is there in my mind that I see each verse as a starting point in the book.
Like I said, all the Chapters of the book are chronological and several groups of chapters are chronological. The groups of chronological chapters are as follows:
1-3, messages to the churches both past and present
4-6, the resurrection. In this chronology Chapter 6 functions to show an order to the resurrection in which the seals represent blocks of time within which people have lived here upon the earth. The seventh 1,000 year block of time (in Chapter 8) is separated from Chapter 6 to represent the distance between the resurrection of the dead in Chapter 6 and the resurrection of those yet to be born upon the earth during the seventh 1,000 years of man upon the earth. This does not necessarily mean that the resurrection of the dead in Chapter 6 is based upon the people's order of their birth here upon the earth; but that there is a resurrection of the dead in Chapter 6 followed by the resurrection of those yet to be born upon the earth during the seventh 1,000 year period of time (seal).
6-8, the seven seals. In this chronology the chapters show an order to to several last days events.
8-11, the seven trumpets. In this chronology the chapters show an order to several last days events.
The Book Center
12, the woman and the dragon
13-14, The beast and the Christ
15-16, The seven bowls, In this chronology the chapters show an order to several last days events.
17-19, the fall of Babylon. In this chronology the chapters show an order to several last days events.
20-22 the end
It should be easy to see the book chiasmus at this point as follows:
1-3 message to the churches
4-6 resurrection
6-8 last days events
8-11 trumpets
12 the emphasis of the book, the woman and the dragon, the chapter 12 sign
13-14 the beast and the Christ
15-16 bowls
17-19 last days events
20-22 the end
I have been working on the BoR chiasmus for years and this is the best one so far.
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Nov 19, 2018 17:06:26 GMT -6
When the BoR is taken as a whole it divides in the center having 11 chapters in the first half of the book and 11 chapters in the second half of the book as follows: Chapters 1-11 Center Chapters 12-22 I have often wondered why the book does not have 12 chapters in each of the two halves, since 12 is an important number in scripture. I mean, what does the number 11 have to do with anything; but the number 12 represents the tribes of Israel and so forth. Other than that, I can not think of anything exciting about the BoR as a whole; but the two halves, now that's a different story. I do need to mention that all the chapters of the book are chronological; however, they do not flow chronologically across the book center from Chapter 11 to Chapter 12. Nor does the chronological aspects of the chapters flow from Chapter 3 to 4, or Chapter 12 to 13, or Chapter 14 to 15, or Chapter 16 to 17, or Chapter 19 to 20. This indicates several starting points that appear to be consistent with the overall character of the book. That is, everything in the book is a starting point. I wish we could see it in 3D to see this phenomenon, but until we have some method of showing that, we are compelled to look at the book in its quadratic form as a 3D book in a 2D format. However, I often think of the book in its expanded format with a verse hanging in space with linking connections to several other verses. It is there in my mind that I see each verse as a starting point in the book. Like I said, all the Chapters of the book are chronological and several groups of chapters are chronological. The groups of chronological chapters are as follows: 1-3, messages to the churches both past and present 4-6, the resurrection. In this chronology Chapter 6 functions to show an order to the resurrection in which the seals represent blocks of time within which people have lived here upon the earth. The seventh 1,000 year block of time (in Chapter 8) is separated from Chapter 6 to represent the distance between the resurrection of the dead in Chapter 6 and the resurrection of those yet to be born upon the earth during the seventh 1,000 years of man upon the earth. This does not necessarily mean that the resurrection of the dead in Chapter 6 is based upon the people's order of their birth here upon the earth; but that there is a resurrection of the dead in Chapter 6 followed by the resurrection of those yet to be born upon the earth during the seventh 1,000 year period of time (seal). 6-8, the seven seals. In this chronology the chapters show an order to to several last days events. 8-11, the seven trumpets. In this chronology the chapters show an order to several last days events. The Book Center 12, the woman and the dragon 13-14, The beast and the Christ 15-16, The seven bowls, In this chronology the chapters show an order to several last days events. 17-19, the fall of Babylon. In this chronology the chapters show an order to several last days events. 20-21 the end It should be easy to see the book chiasmus at this point as follows: 1-3 message to the churches 4-6 resurrection 6-8 last days events 8-11 trumpets 12 the emphasis of the book, the woman and the dragon, the chapter 12 sign 13-14 the beast and the Christ 15-16 bowls 17-19 last days events 20-21 the end I have been working on the BoR chiasmus for years and this is the best one so far. We must remember sister, chapters and verses were added by the translators, they were not originally in the bible so its a sorta modern thing (last 500 years or so). If I may ask sister, why do you see a resurrection via chapters 4-6 ? Thank you. |
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Post by mike on Nov 19, 2018 18:23:31 GMT -6
Good point rondonmonson...would you agree there is a chiasm? I do see that style (after several have pointed this out) so even without the chapter/verse we get a similar effect (imo). And "labelling" it by chapter/verse makes her point easier to follow. Without the numbers how would you describe how to locate "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:" |
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Post by boraddict on Nov 19, 2018 18:42:04 GMT -6
rondonmonson said: "If I may ask sister, why do you see a resurrection via chapters 4-6 ? Thank you." and rondon, perhaps you know that I love that question, and not just a little but a lot.
Think of the beginning of the book where John tells us that he was in spirit on the Lord's day, and while in spirit he hears (v. 1:10), and then sees the Savior (vv. 1:11-16). Then he (John) falls to the Savior's feet (v. 1:17), and then the Savior tells John to:
1) "have the keys of hell and death
2) to write the things which thou has seen
3) and the things which are
4) and the things which shall be hereafter."
John is not told to write these things in the above order, so we simply need to find where John put those four items in his book.
1) The keys of hell and death are located at Verse 9:1 and hell and death are located at Verse 6:8. Thus, John has authority (keys) over Death (the beast) and Hell (the false prophet) proved via the plagues (v. 6:8 that link to Verse 18:8 after Babylon has been destroyed by the beast (v. 17:16). This authority includes the ability to give prophecy (19:10) concerning their (the beast and false prophet) destruction (19:19-21). Notice the hard link "fell at his feet" in both verses 1:17 and 19:10 tying this all together. The keys are the authority that John has to tell us about the coming war in Verses 19:11-21. It is simply beautiful scripture.
2) The things that John has seen are included in his four visionary experiences as stated in Chapter 1, Chapters 4-11, Chapters 12-19 (beginning at 17), and Chapters 20-21.
3) The things which "are" are the letters to the 7 churches in Chapters 2 and 3.
4) The things which shall be hereafter are included in Chapters 4-6. Notice in Chapter 11 that the two witnesses are told by "a great voice from heaven" to "come up hither" (v. 11:12) after the spirit of God entered into them (v. 11:11). Thus, to come up hither includes those dead being returned to their restored bodies; their resurrection. That is, the hereafter is the resurrection of the dead and two of those dead "come up hither." Thus, in Verse 4:1 where John is told to come up hither he is being told to see the resurrection of the dead that comes hereafter; after the two witness are resurrected. It is then that we have the four leaders (beasts) that are God the Father, Lord Jesus, and the two witnesses as referenced in Chapter 4 and Chapter 1 of Ezekiel. That is, this number can only be 4 after the two witnesses are resurrected in Chapter 11. Thus, in the chronological order, Chapters 4-6 follow Chapters 6-11. Additional proof is the "sea of glass" that is referenced in Chapter 15. This sea of glass (v. 15:2) exists before the temple is opened (v. 15:5). Since the temple is opened at Verse 11:19, then the sea of glass is at Verse 4:6; after the two witnesses are resurrected in Verse 11:11. Thus, Chapter 4 is a resurrection chapter as is Chapters 5 and 6.
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Nov 19, 2018 19:48:15 GMT -6
Good point @ronmondonson...would you agree there is a chiasm? I do see that style (after several have pointed this out) so even without the chapter/verse we get a similar effect (imo). And "labelling" it by chapter/verse makes her point easier to follow. Without the numbers how would you describe how to locate "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:" Yes I definitely believe there is a structure/order to Revelation and I understand why the translators injected the chapters and verses. But she made a point as to why Revelation was divided via 11 chapters in each half instead of 12, thus if they never intended there to be chapters John probably never gave it any thought. I agree there is an order and chapters and verses are needed in the modern age. There are quite a few parenthetical citations in the book of Revelation, whereas the book doesn't follow a chronological order per se. But there is a chronological order there, we just have to set aside the parenthetical citation chapters, if that makes sense. |
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Nov 19, 2018 21:15:06 GMT -6
rondonmonson said: "If I may ask sister, why do you see a resurrection via chapters 4-6 ? Thank you." and rondon, perhaps you know that I love that question, and not just a little but a lot. Think of the beginning of the book where John tells us that he was in spirit on the Lord's day, and while in spirit he hears (v. 1:10), and then sees the Savior (vv. 1:11-16). Then he (John) falls to the Savior's feet (v. 1:17), and then the Savior tells John to: 1) "have the keys of hell and death 2) to write the things which thou has seen 3) and the things which are 4) and the things which shall be hereafter." John is not told to write these things in the above order, so we simply need to find where John put those four items in his book. 1) The keys of hell and death are located at Verse 9:1 and hell and death are located at Verse 6:8. Thus, John has authority (keys) over Death (the beast) and Hell (the false prophet) proved via the plagues (v. 6:8 that link to Verse 18:8 after Babylon has been destroyed by the beast (v. 17:16). This authority includes the ability to give prophecy (19:10) concerning their (the beast and false prophet) destruction (19:19-21). Notice the hard link "fell at his feet" in both verses 1:17 and 19:10 tying this all together. The keys are the authority that John has to tell us about the coming war in Verses 19:11-21. It is simply beautiful scripture. 2) The things that John has seen are included in his four visionary experiences as stated in Chapter 1, Chapters 4-11, Chapters 12-19 (beginning at 17), and Chapters 20-21. 3) The things which "are" are the letters to the 7 churches in Chapters 2 and 3. 4) The things which shall be hereafter are included in Chapters 4-6. Notice in Chapter 11 that the two witnesses are told by "a great voice from heaven" to "come up hither" (v. 11:12) after the spirit of God entered into them (v. 11:11). Thus, to come up hither includes those dead being returned to their restored bodies; their resurrection. That is, the hereafter is the resurrection of the dead and two of those dead "come up hither." Thus, in Verse 4:1 where John is told to come up hither he is being told to see the resurrection of the dead that comes hereafter; after the two witness are resurrected. It is then that we have the four leaders (beasts) that are God the Father, Lord Jesus, and the two witnesses as referenced in Chapter 4 and Chapter 1 of Ezekiel. That is, this number can only be 4 after the two witnesses are resurrected in Chapter 11. Thus, in the chronological order, Chapters 4-6 follow Chapters 6-11. Additional proof is the "sea of glass" that is referenced in Chapter 15. This sea of glass (v. 15:2) exists before the temple is opened (v. 15:5). Since the temple is opened at Verse 11:19, then the sea of glass is at Verse 4:6; after the two witnesses are resurrected in Verse 11:11. Thus, Chapter 4 is a resurrection chapter as is Chapters 5 and 6. Hello sister boraddict, that is why I inquired as per your thought process. I don't like to step all over other people's opinions, even when I might disagree, thus I like to try and understand other people's thoughts, especially the OP's I might add. I can't say we will agree that chapters 4-6 comes after or follows chapters 6-11 I understand why people see the chapters as not in chronological order, because they are not in order. So the only question is what is the order, which is why I replied to the thread title, it's an interesting venture to say the least. I have my thoughts on the order and reasonings like most others do, so I will share. This is the Order I see as per Revelation, tell me what you think, I appreciate the feedback. I see Rev. 1-3 as most do as the Church Age, so that is probably a pretty uniform answer for 99 percent of us. The Rapture is shown in my opinion in Rev. 4:1 I see Rev. 4 and 5 as the Church (by now the Bride, at that time) in Heaven before Jesus opens the Seals, having already married the lamb, meaning Rev. 19 runs parallel to these chapters. We see in Rev. 4:4 they have on white raiment (Robes) and we see in Rev. 5:9 the Redeemed Multitude singing unto he Worthy Lamb. I see Rev. 6 as the First Seal being opened, the Anti-Christ is represented by the white horse, he also is represented by the red horse, black horse and pale green horse. He slays 1.5 to 2 billion people. Those Martyrs under the altar at the 5th seal are tribulation saints not church age saints. The 6th Seal is the celestial show and the 7th seal brings the Trumpets. Rev. 7 is the 144,000 who God protects (I see them as Israel who flee Judea), in Rev. 7:9 I see the great multitude as the bride in heaven who came out of the 2000 year church age. Rev. 8 is the Trumpet Judgments, there are three trumpets left and he Angel says they will be three woes when sounded. Then in Rev. 9 we see Woe #1 as a demon horde released from the pit and Woe #2 I see as an Angelic Army of God delivering His plagues on mankind, 1/3 of all men are slain ( 1.5 billion ? ). Here is where I think most people lose track of the order of Revelation, the don't follow the judgments, but if they did they would go to chapter 16, I will add in 15, its the same thing. Rev. 15 is the Angels readying the 7 Vials, who comes forth via the 7th Trumpet which the Angel in Rev. 8 described as a Woe thus it is Woe #3. Then Rev. 16 winds up the 70th week with the 7 vials which end with Jesus' return. The next chapter would be Rev. 20, the Judgment seat followed by Rev. 21 and 22, the hereafter and New Jerusalem. That ends the Chronological Order. Rev. 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and 19 are Parenthetical Citations those that cover other goings on during some of the other chapters. Some are chapters with singular themes, Rev. 11 for instance covers the 1260 days of the Two-witnesses. Rev. 14 covers the three Harvests, the 144,000 (Jewish Saints (Wheat) who remain on earth with the tares until the end), the Church who is raptured via Jesus in verse 14 and then verses 18-20 is the wicked tares who are harvested at Armageddon. Then we have Rev. 19 that covers the full 7 years of the Church/Bride in heaven marrying Jesus Christ and then returning with him at the Second Coming. Then we have the four chapters I call the intersectional four. They all start at the First Seal, chapters 12, 13, 17 and 18 all start with the Anti-Christ being released which happens in chapter 6. I can explain why if needed. We know the Beast rules 42 months and the Woman (Israel) flees for 42 months so that is why we know they start at the first seal. So there is a short synopsis of the way I view the chronological order of the book of Revelation, some feedback and discussion is welcomed. |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Nov 19, 2018 23:15:19 GMT -6
I say amen to this of rondonmonson:
rondonmonson also posted:
I have a question:
I need scriptural evidence of this link, which I am assuming you are talking about Danial 9. Correct me and I apologize if you are not referring to Daniel...
Where in the Book of Revelation are we instructed to go a 70th week prophecy? I am asking as a watcher, BoR student, and NOT as a moderator of unsealed in this post.
For a long time I have taken Daniel 9 and made it fit into Revelation, based upon the works of scholars of our day. But, what happens is it is not satisfied in my heart. There are many reasons why, particularly this:
Rev 22: 18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; 19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.
what does it mean to add or take away?
When I read Revelation, I read what Paul has to say about the Spiritual Jew, aka, the Follower of Christ, not the physical jew, whom the decree of Daniel 9 was directed (yet I will all day long draw a spiritual parallel to a works-based believer) ..afterall, the Book of Revelation starts out with letters to the Churches...and in those letters? I do see similar situation on earth as what Jesus saw when He came here the First time, and why He has 7 specific letters, with people within those churches overcoming...
Can a person NOT agree with this 70th week thing and still come to an agreement with all the aspects of Revelation? I would hope so...
The timeframes we see in Revelation are for the REVEALING of Christ as King of the Kingdom of God ON EARTH, as it currently is in heaven. And ALL, are going to deal with this prophecy that has been unfolding. Why do I believe this? Because Paul seems to have made it his mission to clarify the controversy of zion...
6Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.” 9So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
18For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.
19Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.
22But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
26For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.
This teaching by Paul suggests to me that the specific "70th Week" Link does not exist in Revelation, but that there is a heed of warning to not be walking by Faith in the Promise. Period.
9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
28For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
Paul identifies the Sons of Israel (those of the Promise based on Faith), the Born Again, as one who is of the Spirit, walking in Faith in the work of God's Son, Jesus. As a Christ follower by Faith, I really soak up the verse of Gal 3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.
The timeframes we see in Revelation, their chronology, fits a pattern LIKE Daniel mourned over, leading to his prayer (apologizing for his unfaithful, unrepentant people), which led to a decree given to him, but I can not make a direct link to that decree of Daniel 9 to the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ, especially since we now know that Jesus came for all!!
Has anyone ever read it without chapter breaks? Maybe if we got rid of the chapter breaks (which is "adding" by definition) to what John wrote, perhaps we all would come into complete understanding...
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Post by boraddict on Nov 19, 2018 23:19:31 GMT -6
Good point @ronmondonson...would you agree there is a chiasm? I do see that style (after several have pointed this out) so even without the chapter/verse we get a similar effect (imo). And "labelling" it by chapter/verse makes her point easier to follow. Without the numbers how would you describe how to locate "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:" Yes I definitely believe there is a structure/order to Revelation and I understand why the translators injected the chapters and verses. But she made a point as to why Revelation was divided via 11 chapters in each half instead of 12, thus if they never intended there to be chapters John probably never gave it any thought. I agree there is an order and chapters and verses are needed in the modern age. There are quite a few parenthetical citations in the book of Revelation, whereas the book doesn't follow a chronological order per se. But there is a chronological order there, we just have to set aside the parenthetical citation chapters, if that makes sense. Rondon you are correct. John may not have had 11 chapters in the two halves of the book. So lets look at the chapter breaks to see how many chapters are really there. a) The chapter break between 1 and 2 is correct because the subject chances from John being in spirit to the messages to the seven churches. b) There should not be a chapter break between Chapters 2 and 3 because the subject of the message to the seven churches in Chapter 2 continues in Chapter 3.c) The chapter break between 3 and 4 is correct because the subject changes from the messages to the seven churches to the vision of the throne of God in the hereafter. d) The chapter break between 4 and 5 is correct because the subject changes from the throne of God in the hereafter to the book of life. e) The chapter break between 5 and 6 is correct because the subject changes from the book of life to the seals of the book. f) The chapter break between 6 and 7 is correct because the subject changes from the seals of the book to the 144,000. g) The chapter break between 7 and 8 is correct because the subject changes from the 144,000 to the seventh seal. h) There should be a chapter break between Verses 8:5 and 8:6 because the subject changes from the seventh seal to the seven angels.i) There should not be a chapter break between Chapters 8 and 9 because the subject of the seven angels in Chapter 8 continues in Chapter 9.j) The chapter break between 9 and 10 is correct because the subject changes from the seven angels as a whole to the seventh angel as a subject in his own right.k) There should be a chapter break between Verses 10:7 and 10:8 because the subject changes from the seventh angel to the seventh angel and John.l) There should not be a chapter break between Chapters 10 and 11 because the subject of the seventh angel and John in Chapter 10 continues in Chapter 11.m) There should be a chapter break between Verses 11:13 and 11:14 because the subject changes from the seventh angel and John to the seventh angel sounds
So now lets count the chapters of the first half of the book: 1) Chapter 1, John in spirit seeing the Savior 2) Chapters 2 and 3, messages to the seven churches 3) Chapter 4, the throne of God in the hereafter 4) Chapter 5, the book of life 5) Chapter 6, the seals of the book 6) Chapter 7, chiasmus center, the 144,000 7) Verses 8:1-5, the seventh seal 8) Verses 8:6-9:21, the seven angels 9) Verses 10:1-7, the seventh angel 10) Verses 10:8-11:13, the seventh angel and John 11) Verses 11:14- 11:19, the seventh angel sounds In my opinion there are 11 chapters in the first half of the book as I have described above. Also, the chiasmus shows that the emphasis of the first half of the book is the sealing of the 144,000.The second half of the book as follows:n) The chapter break between 12 and 13 is correct because the subject changes from the woman and the dragon to the beast and his false prophet.o) The chapter break between 13 and 14 is correct because the subject changes from the beast and his false prophet to the Savior and his 144,000.p) The chapter break between 14 and 15 is correct because the subject changes from the Savior and his 144,000 to the resurrection.q) There should be a chapter break between Verses 15:4 and 15:5 because the subject changes from the resurrection to the seven last plagues.
r) There should not be a chapter break between Chapters 15 and 16 because the subject of the seven last plagues in Chapter 15 continues in Chapter 16.s) The chapter break between 16 and 17 is correct because the subject changes from the seven last plagues to the beast destroying Babylon.
t) The chapter break between 17 and 18 is correct because the subject changes from the beast destroying Babylon to destroyed Babylon.
u) The chapter break between 18 and 19 is correct because the subject changes from destroyed Babylon to the destruction of the beast.
w) The chapter break between 19 and 20 is correct because the subject changes from the destruction of the beast to Satan bound for 1,000 years.
x) The chapter break between 20 and 21 is correct because the subject changes from binding Satan for 1,000 years to the holy city Jerusalem.
y) The chapter break between 21 and 22 is correct because the subject changes from the holy city Jerusalem to the Lamb of God. So now lets count the chapters in the second half of the book. 1) Chapter 12, the woman and the dragon 2) Chapter 13, the beast and his false prophet 3) Chapter 14, the Savior and his 144,000 4) Verses 15:1-4, the resurrection 5) Verses 15:5-16:21, the seven last plagues 6) Chapter 17, chiasmus center, the beast destroying Babylon 7) Chapter 18, destroyed Babylon 8) Chapter 19, the destruction of the beast 9) Chapter 20, Satan bound for 1,000 years 10) Chapter 21, the holy city Jerusalem 11) Chapter 22, the Lamb of God Thus, according to my calculations there are eleven chapters in the second half of the book and the chiasmus center is Chapter 17. |
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Post by boraddict on Nov 20, 2018 1:22:17 GMT -6
Hello sister boraddict, that is why I inquired as per your thought process. I don't like to step all over other people's opinions, even when I might disagree, thus I like to try and understand other people's thoughts, especially the OP's I might add. I can't say we will agree that chapters 4-6 comes after or follows chapters 6-11 I understand why people see the chapters as not in chronological order, because they are not in order. So the only question is what is the order, which is why I replied to the thread title, it's an interesting venture to say the least. I have my thoughts on the order and reasonings like most others do, so I will share. This is the Order I see as per Revelation, tell me what you think, I appreciate the feedback. 1) I see Rev. 1-3 as most do as the Church Age, so that is probably a pretty uniform answer for 99 percent of us. The Rapture is shown in my opinion in Rev. 4:1 2) I see Rev. 4 and 5 as the Church (by now the Bride, at that time) in Heaven before Jesus opens the Seals, having already married the lamb, meaning Rev. 19 runs parallel to these chapters. We see in Rev. 4:4 they have on white raiment (Robes) and we see in Rev. 5:9 the Redeemed Multitude singing unto he Worthy Lamb. 3) I see Rev. 6 as the First Seal being opened, the Anti-Christ is represented by the white horse, he also is represented by the red horse, black horse and pale green horse. He slays 1.5 to 2 billion people. Those Martyrs under the altar at the 5th seal are tribulation saints not church age saints. The 6th Seal is the celestial show and the 7th seal brings the Trumpets. 4) Rev. 7 is the 144,000 who God protects (I see them as Israel who flee Judea), in Rev. 7:9 I see the great multitude as the bride in heaven who came out of the 2000 year church age. 5) Rev. 8 is the Trumpet Judgments, there are three trumpets left and he Angel says they will be three woes when sounded. Then in Rev. 9 we see Woe #1 as a demon horde released from the pit and Woe #2 I see as an Angelic Army of God delivering His plagues on mankind, 1/3 of all men are slain ( 1.5 billion ? ). 6) Here is where I think most people lose track of the order of Revelation, the don't follow the judgments, but if they did they would go to chapter 16, I will add in 15, its the same thing. 7) Rev. 15 is the Angels readying the 7 Vials, who comes forth via the 7th Trumpet which the Angel in Rev. 8 described as a Woe thus it is Woe #3. Then Rev. 16 winds up the 70th week with the 7 vials which end with Jesus' return. The next chapter would be Rev. 20, the Judgment seat followed by Rev. 21 and 22, the hereafter and New Jerusalem. That ends the Chronological Order. 8) Rev. 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and 19 are Parenthetical Citations those that cover other goings on during some of the other chapters. Some are chapters with singular themes, Rev. 11 for instance covers the 1260 days of the Two-witnesses. Rev. 14 covers the three Harvests, the 144,000 (Jewish Saints (Wheat) who remain on earth with the tares until the end), the Church who is raptured via Jesus in verse 14 and then verses 18-20 is the wicked tares who are harvested at Armageddon. Then we have Rev. 19 that covers the full 7 years of the Church/Bride in heaven marrying Jesus Christ and then returning with him at the Second Coming. 9) Then we have the four chapters I call the intersectional four. They all start at the First Seal, chapters 12, 13, 17 and 18 all start with the Anti-Christ being released which happens in chapter 6. I can explain why if needed. We know the Beast rules 42 months and the Woman (Israel) flees for 42 months so that is why we know they start at the first seal. So there is a short synopsis of the way I view the chronological order of the book of Revelation, some feedback and discussion is welcomed. rondon I love your analysis and I will attempt to give some good feedback. 1) Most of my work (99%) is my own analysis. Occasionally however, I find nuggets of gold from others, and that is why I love this board. The Church Age that you mention is perhaps a doctrine that is taught; I don't know. However, the messages to the churches (ch. 2-3) was not only to the saints of John's day but to us as well and there is ample evidence of that in the text of the chapters. I think that is what you mean by Church Age. The rapture beginning at Verse 4:1 is absolutely correct; however, it is a rapture of the living and the resurrected dead. In contrast there is a rapture that is exclusive to the barley harvest. In your work you are showing the barley harvest at Verse 4:1 so you are painting like a Rembrandt whereas I am painting like a Van Gogh. 2) I see the strokes that you are painting and they are well placed. Thus, you are saying, following the rapture (v. 4:1) is the marriage via the link "Rev. 4:4 (to Ch. 19) they have on white raiment (Robes) and we see in Rev. 5:9 the Redeemed Multitude singing unto the Worthy Lamb." We are speaking of the same people although with some technical differences. I see the saints in Chapter 19 getting ready for battle as an army in Verse 19:19. 3) Okay, I see the reference to the "church age" again. Please explain what you mean by this. The saints under the altar (v. 6:9) is clearly as you have said "tribulation saints." Venge showed me a link from Verse 6:9 to Verse 8:3 that is very interesting. Please explain "The 6th Seal is the celestial show and the 7th seal brings the Trumpets." 4) "Church Age" again. I do not know what this means. 5) I am happy to see that you have this understanding: "Then in Rev. 9 we see Woe #1 as a demon horde released from the pit and Woe #2 I see as an Angelic Army of God delivering His plagues on mankind." This is close to my work; however, the destruction of God in this second woe is upon the "demon horde" of the first woe. The big plagues come later in the third woe at Verse 11:19 with "great hail" (v. 16:21). 6) I worked for several years under the assumption that the three woes were three judgments. However, in conversations with venge I am getting to the point that the three woes might be three warnings. One thing that supports this conclusion is Verse 8:13 wherein the angel (the 7th) announces the three woes and states that three angels are yet to sound, and this includes himself. Then in Chapter 14 we see this same angel at Verses 14:6-7, after the 144,000 are with Christ, meaning that the judgments as referenced in the three woes have not yet taken place. So the woes may be warning of things to come. I need to work on this a little more. 7) You lost me in item number seven. I will say that your ability to move over the chapters in my opinion is the key to working in Revelations. You must go across the chapters via the links and that is what you are doing. You are right to move from 16 to 20. I worked on the order of the second half of the book and concluded that John moved the chapters. We can see the vision starting at 17, then on to 13 and back to 17 and then 18 and 19. Then we begin at 12 and 14 followed by 15 and 16 and on to 20-22. It is simply a matter of moving like silk or rather like in my case a Van Gogh. 8) I like the word "parenthetical" although in some aspects the chapters or verses applied as parenthetical in one case may not be so in another. You are saying, to your overall analysis Chapters "10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and 19" are parenthetical. As such, your work shows the following order: 1-9, 15-16, 20-22. The problem that I see is that you left out the 3rd woe in Chapter 11. Perhaps you have explained why you did this but can you tell me again? 9) You said "They all start at the First Seal, chapters 12, 13, 17 and 18 all start with the Anti-Christ being released which happens in chapter 6." As I recall, the angels explanation in Verses 17:7-18 includes Chapter 13. Thus, either Chapter 13 is concurrent with or consecutive to Verses 17:1-6. You are saying that Chapters 17 and 13 are concurrent. While this may be possible, Chapter 18 clearly follows Chapter 17 and therefore is consecutive. As such, Chapter 18 can not start at the first seal but must follow 17. Can you show me how you see Chapter 18 starting at the first seal? |
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Nov 20, 2018 4:27:39 GMT -6
I say amen to this of rondonmonson: rondonmonson also posted: I have a question: I need scriptural evidence of this link, which I am assuming you are talking about Danial 9. Correct me and I apologize if you are not referring to Daniel... Where in the Book of Revelation are we instructed to go a 70th week prophecy? I am asking as a watcher, BoR student, and NOT as a moderator of unsealed in this post. For a long time I have taken Daniel 9 and made it fit into Revelation, based upon the works of scholars of our day. But, what happens is it is not satisfied in my heart. There are many reasons why, particularly this: Rev 22: 18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; 19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.
what does it mean to add or take away? When I read Revelation, I read what Paul has to say about the Spiritual Jew, aka, the Follower of Christ, not the physical jew, whom the decree of Daniel 9 was directed (yet I will all day long draw a spiritual parallel to a works-based believer) ..afterall, the Book of Revelation starts out with letters to the Churches...and in those letters? I do see similar situation on earth as what Jesus saw when He came here the First time, and why He has 7 specific letters, with people within those churches overcoming... Can a person NOT agree with this 70th week thing and still come to an agreement with all the aspects of Revelation? I would hope so... The timeframes we see in Revelation are for the REVEALING of Christ as King of the Kingdom of God ON EARTH, as it currently is in heaven. And ALL, are going to deal with this prophecy that has been unfolding. Why do I believe this? Because Paul seems to have made it his mission to clarify the controversy of zion... 6Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.” 9So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
18For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.
19Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.
22But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
26For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.This teaching by Paul suggests to me that the specific "70th Week" Link does not exist in Revelation, but that there is a heed of warning to not be walking by Faith in the Promise. Period. 9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
28For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.Paul identifies the Sons of Israel (those of the Promise based on Faith), the Born Again, as one who is of the Spirit, walking in Faith in the work of God's Son, Jesus. As a Christ follower by Faith, I really soak up the verse of Gal 3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.
The timeframes we see in Revelation, their chronology, fits a pattern LIKE Daniel mourned over, leading to his prayer (apologizing for his unfaithful, unrepentant people), which led to a decree given to him, but I can not make a direct link to that decree of Daniel 9 to the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ, especially since we now know that Jesus came for all!! Has anyone ever read it without chapter breaks? Maybe if we got rid of the chapter breaks (which is "adding" by definition) to what John wrote, perhaps we all would come into complete understanding... Hello barbiO, I took a bit of a nap I am afraid, being 55 years old makes us fall to sleep with our computers in our lap at times, he he. I tried to cut up the quotes but I am afraid all sites are different and I haven't quite got the hang of this one yet so I will kinda paraphrase your questions from above. I understand a few think the 70th week has come and gone, most think its ahead of us, some think the Little Horn has come and gone, most think he's the Anti-Christ. Many times when referring to the coming Anti-Christ I will say the Anti-Christ/Little Horn/Beast at first to let everyone know I think they are all one and the same, then I might just use Beast or Anti-Christ. I do likewise via the 7 year tribulation and the 70th Week and even I might add Jacob's Troubles, I see them all as the same, then I will just use one of them the rest of the way. As per adding/taking away, I think of course that means adding false doctrine to the book of Revelation. The times of Jacob's troubles is spoken of in Jeremiah 30:7, he prophesies that after God brings Israel back into their own land there will be a time of trouble for Jacob, and God will save him from it. In Daniel 9:27 as you referred, we do see the coming Anti-Christ break his peace agreements in the middle of the week, which is the 70th week as per the prophecy itself. But Daniel 12:1-2 and Matthew 24:15-17 are the most telling passages on this troublesome time. Daniel in ch. 12 explicitly states this time of trouble will come to pass when Michael stands up, and many who sleep in the earth will awake to judgment. So this time of trouble must be end times. Likewise Jesus told of it in Matthew 24 and he also told of the Anti-Christ and False Prophet being around for this time of troubles. So this final week, meant to get the Jews to repent has always via scriptures been prophesied to come in the last days/end times. Israel have to repent before the 70th week can come to pass according to the prophecy in Dan. 9:24-27. Now I agree with you, I love Galatians ch. 3, it is on of my go to chapters when people tell me that Romans chapters 9-11 prove we are all one in Christ. I tell them to reread Romans 9-11 then read Galatians chapter 3, because it's not really saying we are all the same, it is saying we are all the same when we come to Christ Jesus, via FAITH ALONE !! But Israel is blinded according to Romans ch. 11 until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. In other words when the church is raptured, God is going to open Iareals eyes to Him supernaturally, and that is what the scriptures say sister. So Rom. 11:8 says they slumber/are blind, then he tells the Romans why their branches were broken off, because of unbelief (Rom 11:20) and that if they do not remain in their unbelief they will be graphed back into the olive tree again. Then we get this BELOW: Rom. 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: We know that Paul, Peter, some Messianic Jews today believe as we that Jesus is the Messiah, so Israel is blind IN PART (Mostly so), but their eyes will be opened once the Gentile Church has been raptured, and I say this knowing some Jews are a part of the Church, but it is a small portion, they are in essence blinded because of their sins against God, not repenting etc. But here is the key sister, and why Galatians ch. 3 is so powerful, there is but ONE WAY unto God and that is via Faith in Jesus Christ, Abraham was counted as Righteous because he believed God, likewise we believe on Jesus and thus his blood covers our sins. The Jews must come to God the "exact same way" by faith in Jesus, thus we are all one and the same just like Galatians 3 says, Jew and Greek must come to God the same way, we just do it at different times. They are in a slumber, they are blinded by God until we are Raptured, then God will send Elijah back BEFORE the Day of the Lord according to Malachi 4:5-6, to turn Israel back unto God. So we the Church (which includes Paul, Peter and all Jews dead or alive) will be taken to Heaven to marry the Lamb. There will be a 1/3 of the Jews (see Zechariah 13:8-9) who repent and 2/3 who refuse to repent and thus perish. So ALL ISRAEL is saved, not every Jew, but Israel as a Nation is preserved. Then God protects them in Petra (Wilderness) for 1260 days (see Rev. ch. 12). When we return with Jesus, he will gather them unto his barn, Israel is THE WHEAT, they stay on earth with the wicked tares, we are taken to Heaven to marry the Lamb. Amen. This is why its called Jacob's troubles of course, it is designed to get Israel to repent. All who come unto Christ I agree, must come by Faith alone, but it is God's prerogative when He chooses to call us. Jesus will rule from Jerusalem for 1000 years, this is to be the nail in Satan's coffin via his trial, under Him the world was mayhem, murder, lusts, hate, lies etc. etc. Under Christ the world will be a place of bliss just as Isaiah chapter 11 says. I think it says the wolf will lie down with the lamb. Amen. I hope this helped you out as per the 70th week etc. Basically the 70th week can not come to pass until Israel repents as a Nation and turns to God, so says the Prophecy Gabriel explained unto Daniel. They HAVE TO REPENT before the 70th week can come to pass, and we know the Jews are still not believers in Jesus Christ, but then again, God has placed scales over their eyes until we are raptured. They will come to Christ as a Nation, so says Zechariah 12:10, 13:1 and Malachi 4:5-6. |
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Nov 20, 2018 7:25:16 GMT -6
Hello sister boraddict, that is why I inquired as per your thought process. I don't like to step all over other people's opinions, even when I might disagree, thus I like to try and understand other people's thoughts, especially the OP's I might add. I can't say we will agree that chapters 4-6 comes after or follows chapters 6-11 I understand why people see the chapters as not in chronological order, because they are not in order. So the only question is what is the order, which is why I replied to the thread title, it's an interesting venture to say the least. I have my thoughts on the order and reasonings like most others do, so I will share. This is the Order I see as per Revelation, tell me what you think, I appreciate the feedback. 1) I see Rev. 1-3 as most do as the Church Age, so that is probably a pretty uniform answer for 99 percent of us. The Rapture is shown in my opinion in Rev. 4:1 2) I see Rev. 4 and 5 as the Church (by now the Bride, at that time) in Heaven before Jesus opens the Seals, having already married the lamb, meaning Rev. 19 runs parallel to these chapters. We see in Rev. 4:4 they have on white raiment (Robes) and we see in Rev. 5:9 the Redeemed Multitude singing unto he Worthy Lamb. 3) I see Rev. 6 as the First Seal being opened, the Anti-Christ is represented by the white horse, he also is represented by the red horse, black horse and pale green horse. He slays 1.5 to 2 billion people. Those Martyrs under the altar at the 5th seal are tribulation saints not church age saints. The 6th Seal is the celestial show and the 7th seal brings the Trumpets. 4) Rev. 7 is the 144,000 who God protects (I see them as Israel who flee Judea), in Rev. 7:9 I see the great multitude as the bride in heaven who came out of the 2000 year church age. 5) Rev. 8 is the Trumpet Judgments, there are three trumpets left and he Angel says they will be three woes when sounded. Then in Rev. 9 we see Woe #1 as a demon horde released from the pit and Woe #2 I see as an Angelic Army of God delivering His plagues on mankind, 1/3 of all men are slain ( 1.5 billion ? ). 6) Here is where I think most people lose track of the order of Revelation, the don't follow the judgments, but if they did they would go to chapter 16, I will add in 15, its the same thing. 7) Rev. 15 is the Angels readying the 7 Vials, who comes forth via the 7th Trumpet which the Angel in Rev. 8 described as a Woe thus it is Woe #3. Then Rev. 16 winds up the 70th week with the 7 vials which end with Jesus' return. The next chapter would be Rev. 20, the Judgment seat followed by Rev. 21 and 22, the hereafter and New Jerusalem. That ends the Chronological Order. 8) Rev. 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and 19 are Parenthetical Citations those that cover other goings on during some of the other chapters. Some are chapters with singular themes, Rev. 11 for instance covers the 1260 days of the Two-witnesses. Rev. 14 covers the three Harvests, the 144,000 (Jewish Saints (Wheat) who remain on earth with the tares until the end), the Church who is raptured via Jesus in verse 14 and then verses 18-20 is the wicked tares who are harvested at Armageddon. Then we have Rev. 19 that covers the full 7 years of the Church/Bride in heaven marrying Jesus Christ and then returning with him at the Second Coming. 9) Then we have the four chapters I call the intersectional four. They all start at the First Seal, chapters 12, 13, 17 and 18 all start with the Anti-Christ being released which happens in chapter 6. I can explain why if needed. We know the Beast rules 42 months and the Woman (Israel) flees for 42 months so that is why we know they start at the first seal. So there is a short synopsis of the way I view the chronological order of the book of Revelation, some feedback and discussion is welcomed. rondon I love your analysis and I will attempt to give some good feedback. 1) Most of my work (99%) is my own analysis. Occasionally however, I find nuggets of gold from others, and that is why I love this board. The Church Age that you mention is perhaps a doctrine that is taught; I don't know. However, the messages to the churches (ch. 2-3) was not only to the saints of John's day but to us as well and there is ample evidence of that in the text of the chapters. I think that is what you mean by Church Age. The rapture beginning at Verse 4:1 is absolutely correct; however, it is a rapture of the living and the resurrected dead. In contrast there is a rapture that is exclusive to the barley harvest. In your work you are showing the barley harvest at Verse 4:1 so you are painting like a Rembrandt whereas I am painting like a Van Gogh. 2) I see the strokes that you are painting and they are well placed. Thus, you are saying, following the rapture (v. 4:1) is the marriage via the link "Rev. 4:4 (to Ch. 19) they have on white raiment (Robes) and we see in Rev. 5:9 the Redeemed Multitude singing unto the Worthy Lamb." We are speaking of the same people although with some technical differences. I see the saints in Chapter 19 getting ready for battle as an army in Verse 19:19. 3) Okay, I see the reference to the "church age" again. Please explain what you mean by this. The saints under the altar (v. 6:9) is clearly as you have said "tribulation saints." Venge showed me a link from Verse 6:9 to Verse 8:3 that is very interesting. Please explain "The 6th Seal is the celestial show and the 7th seal brings the Trumpets." 4) "Church Age" again. I do not know what this means. 5) I am happy to see that you have this understanding: "Then in Rev. 9 we see Woe #1 as a demon horde released from the pit and Woe #2 I see as an Angelic Army of God delivering His plagues on mankind." This is close to my work; however, the destruction of God in this second woe is upon the "demon horde" of the first woe. The big plagues come later in the third woe at Verse 11:19 with "great hail" (v. 16:21). 6) I worked for several years under the assumption that the three woes were three judgments. However, in conversations with venge I am getting to the point that the three woes might be three warnings. One thing that supports this conclusion is Verse 8:13 wherein the angel (the 7th) announces the three woes and states that three angels are yet to sound, and this includes himself. Then in Chapter 14 we see this same angel at Verses 14:6-7, after the 144,000 are with Christ, meaning that the judgments as referenced in the three woes have not yet taken place. So the woes may be warning of things to come. I need to work on this a little more. 7) You lost me in item number seven. I will say that your ability to move over the chapters in my opinion is the key to working in Revelations. You must go across the chapters via the links and that is what you are doing. You are right to move from 16 to 20. I worked on the order of the second half of the book and concluded that John moved the chapters. We can see the vision starting at 17, then on to 13 and back to 17 and then 18 and 19. Then we begin at 12 and 14 followed by 15 and 16 and on to 20-22. It is simply a matter of moving like silk or rather like in my case a Van Gogh. 8) I like the word "parenthetical" although in some aspects the chapters or verses applied as parenthetical in one case may not be so in another. You are saying, to your overall analysis Chapters "10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and 19" are parenthetical. As such, your work shows the following order: 1-9, 15-16, 20-22. The problem that I see is that you left out the 3rd woe in Chapter 11. Perhaps you have explained why you did this but can you tell me again? 9) You said "They all start at the First Seal, chapters 12, 13, 17 and 18 all start with the Anti-Christ being released which happens in chapter 6." As I recall, the angels explanation in Verses 17:7-18 includes Chapter 13. Thus, either Chapter 13 is concurrent with or consecutive to Verses 17:1-6. You are saying that Chapters 17 and 13 are concurrent. While this may be possible, Chapter 18 clearly follows Chapter 17 and therefore is consecutive. As such, Chapter 18 can not start at the first seal but must follow 17. Can you show me how you see Chapter 18 starting at the first seal? I read your other post and I was about to tell you I would get back with you tomorrow because I was kind of sleepy, then I started reading this post and I decided to get the coffee brewing. I have been doing this for 30 years, prophecy and all, and rarely do I see someone who can see things I left off for brevity's sake and make inquiries on such. You have a gift that very few have, of course these insights come from seeking God and His will, but one also has to be given these senses by God. Amen, Onwards, the Coffee taste good. 1. The Church Age runs from the Fourth Beast/Rome to the Rapture/Ten Toes. From Jesus Christs death unto the Rapture. I agree the letters to the seven churches were intended for us all, even though they were unto specific Asia-minor churches back in the first century. The Rapture is the Dead in Christ and those who are alive in Christ when Jesus calls us home (1 Cor. 15). As per the Barley harvest I am not quite sure what you mean, if you mean the Wheat Harvest then I see that as Israel, they stay on earth with the tares unto the end, then Jesus gathers them it his barn, so if that is what you are speaking I see it in that fashion, if not let me know. Thanks. 2. Yes indeed, it is the Army of God in Rev. 19:19, but Rev. 19 covers the full seven years of the church in heaven, before they marry the lamb, then after we marry the lamb to become the Bride as seen in Rev. chapters 4, 5 and 7, and of course when we return with Jesus in the last half of Rev. chapter 19. 3. The prayers of the Saints are indeed brought unto God's nostrils in ch. 8, I think the Two-witnesses are given the power to rain plagues down at all times if I am not mistaken. I think I explained the Church Age above. The 6th Seal is God announcing "Supernaturally" via the Sun and Moon not giving their lights and the Stars falling from heaven (which I think is Satan being cast down to earth), I call it a celestial show, but at that time men finally realize they are in the Wrath of God, but in reality, they have been in the Wrath of God since Jesus opened the first seal and allowed the Anti-Christ to go forth Conquering. Seeing these foretold signs in the heavens, it finally dawns on them. If you notice chapter 8, the 7th Seal sounds and then we get all 7 Trumpets lined up by the angels, thus the 7th Seal is/brings forth, all seven trumpets. 4. Just means the time from Jesus death, where he gives us the Holy Spirit until the time we are Raptured to Heaven. 5. The Demonic horde is led by Apollyon, the Scarlet Beast of Rev. ch. 17. The reason I say the 2nd Woe is an Angelic Army of 200 Million is verse 20 where it tells us that these men were slain by "Plagues" of God. The Breastplates they wear also match to a tee the Israeli High Priests Breastplates in the Old Testament, whereas the Demon hordes have Breastplates of Iron. As per the 11:19 Woe, that is just telling us what happens in Rev. 16, its the same event. The Two-witnesses die at the 2nd Woe, but their prayers are what has brought these Woes upon the earth, this is why the world celebrates when they die.......BUT, we get to see the 7th Trumpet or LAST WOE results of their Prayers. Rev. 11 is all about the Two-witnesses 42 month ministry, we see when they die, we also see the results of the 3rd Woe, because their prayers are what brought it forth, thus when it says Jesus takes over in Rev. 11, that really happens at the 7th Vial in Rev. chapter 16. We just hear the 7th Trumpet and are told Jesus rules because ch. 11 needs to finish off the Two-witnesses ministry, and their prayers bring forth all the plagues, their prayers thus bring forth the 3rd Woe on mankind, it thus needs to be shown as a part of their ministry in ch. 11. 6. I think all the Seals, Trumpets and Vials are God's judgments. The 1st Woe is the Demon horde, the 2nd Woe is the 200 million army that slays 1.5 billion people.The 3rd Woe is the 7 Vials. 7. The last three Trumpets are the last three Woes according to the Angel in ch. 8 right ? So the 7th Trumpet is the 3rd Woe but what is it ? It is the 7 Vials all rolled into one. Does that help you any ? Sometimes I am to concise with my answers, usually I am long winded, LOL. 8. As you might have guessed by now, I see the 7 Vials as the 3rd Woe. They are the same event. The 7th Seal is also the 7 Trumpets, so this order just repeats itself. Thus all the Judgments actually come out of the Seven Seals that Jesus opens. Notice Jesus TAKES OVER in chapter 11 ? Well he of course takes over when he defeats the Beast and all of his minions. It's the same event. 9. This is going to shock you. Your question was superb. But what if I told you the Red Dragon, the Beast from the Sea and the Scarlet Colored Beast are three separate entities ? We can see that by the designation of CROWNS or lack thereof. (1A.) Red Dragon = Satan, he has 7 Crowns on the Heads because he is over All Kingdoms on earth, just as he told Jesus in Luke ch. 4, all these kingdoms will I give to you if you will just bow down and worship me, for it is given unto me and I do as I will with it. (2B.) The Beast that arises from the sea is a Metaphoric Beast of Seven Kingdoms over the Mediterranean Sea Region, the Church delivered a Mortal Wound unto it because the gates of hell could not prevail against the Church, we turned Rome (Fourth Beast) from a Beast to a conveyor of the Gospel of Jesus Christ !! Amen, the Church was doin work !! But when we are Raptured, the Beast will REVIVE or the Mortal Wound will be healed, a MAN from Europe will arise and Conquer Israel and he Mediterranean Sea Region once again. This is why the CROWNS are on the 10 Horns, they freely give their Kingdoms unto this MAN. (3C.) The Scarlet Colored Beast is Apollyon, the Demon freed from the bottomless pit. He was placed over the Mediterranean Sea Region by Satan, thus he is OF THE SEVEN and is an 8th King of sorts. He is what Paul called a Principality in high places............. Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. He is not a Physical being so he can't have a CROWN on earth and of course he can never be over Satan so he is designated with NO CROWNS in Rev. 17. He has been locked in the bottomless pit for nigh 2000 years thus .........HE WAS..........IS NOT.............YET IS..........because he will be released at the 1st Woe in Rev. 9. He was over the Mediterranean Sea Region, over Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome and he will be over the Anti-Christ very soon. But as of now he is in the bottomless pit. Chapters 17 and 18 we can speak of in full tomorrow, the coffee isn't helping me much now, getting sleepy. Remember, the Angel in Rev. 16 says IT IS DONE !! So Rev. 18 has to end at the same time !! Rev. 17 is the Harlot getting killed off in Rev. 17:16, I see her as being done away with early on in chapter 6 or a little later. The question then is WHO IS SHE ? Ahhh. Tell who the Harlot is and who Babylon is. It's a challenge. God Bless sister. |
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Post by mike on Nov 20, 2018 7:54:35 GMT -6
this video does a nice job of explaining firstfruits which would also include barley, then wheat harvest in BORA application. If the video presenter interpretation is accurate then the 144k are a part of the rapture and remain on earth or are a symbolic representation of all believers and we remain, in the spirit (forever with HIM) but are sealed and protected during the tribulation
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Post by boraddict on Nov 20, 2018 8:20:04 GMT -6
Hi rondon, you have some good stuff in your Revelation analysis (the previous posting).
As to the Barley harvest; it is the first fruits harvest of the new year. Although, to us it is more like the first fruits harvest of the new day.
Whereas the wheat harvest comes later in the year and to us later in the day.
Thus, the first harvest is the barley and the second harvest is the wheat.
I realize that most Revelation analysis's see only one harvest, but I see three. The barley harvest includes the 144,000 and a multitude of Christ's followers who are ready when he returns, and the best prophecy within which to see this is the Parable of the Ten Virgins. Notice that the virgins are all Christ's followers; however, five were ready and five were not. Thus, the first are taken and the second must wait to be harvested when the tares are burned. This is also clearly shown in Rev. 14 where the 144,000 stand with Christ showing the barley harvest has taken place, and then the great multitude as the "cloud" who were enraptured in the barley harvest (14:14) witness the earth being reaped (v. 14:16) in the wheat harvest; the harvest of the wheat and the tares. Notice in the barley harvest there are no tares. That is, the rapture simply takes the saints who are ready. Those not ready must wait for the next harvest; the wheat. Last of all is the harvest of the grapes (vv. 14:18-20) that are crushed by Lord Jesus himself when he sends large stones upon the earth (v. 16:21).
Also, the tares that are burned in the wheat harvest include the beast and false prophet (v. 19:20). So, in my opinion, the three harvests look as follows:
1) the barley harvest that is the rapture of those who are ready at the time Babylon is destroyed by the beast
2) the wheat harvest is the rapture of those who are ready at the time the beast is destroyed
3) the grape harvest is the destruction of mankind from the face of the earth. It is here that the resurrection of the dead takes place and the remainder of the saints who repent are taken from the earth.
One thing that I did notice if my memory serves me correctly is that you show saints returning with Christ at some point in the tribulation. Can you elaborate upon this?
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Post by bondservant on Nov 20, 2018 9:44:15 GMT -6
I believe there are a few keys to the Book of Revelation of Jesus is Christ. 1) - It is a Revelation of Jesus Christ & His Majestic Power & Infinite Glory. 2) That it is not a book of death, destruction & chaos but in reality it is a book of worship. The word apocalypse is widely misused by Hollywood & it actually means (according to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypse ): An apocalypse (Ancient Greek: ἀποκάλυψις apokálypsis, from ἀπό and καλύπτω, literally meaning "an uncovering") is a disclosure of knowledge or revelation. In religious and occult concepts it is usually a disclosure of something hidden, "a vision of heavenly secrets that can make sense of earthly realities". Historically, the term has a heavy religious connotation as commonly seen in the prophetic revelations of eschatology and were obtained through dreams or spiritual visions. (Then Wiki also says ): In the biblical book of revelation apocalypse says to be the complete and final destruction of the world. God’s plan was never to destroy everything & His people. God’s plan is to build an atmosphere and a kingdom of worship. A) There are 22 chapters in the Book of Revelation of Jesus Christ just as there are 22 Hebrew letters B) There are 22 books in the Aaronic (Levitical) Old Testament, C) There are 22 amino acids (the building blocks of life) D) There are 22 bones in the skull (giving us the power to speak life or death & blessing or cursing) Choose Life & Blessing! E) Light is used 22 times in the Gospel of John. The 22nd time John uses the word, he quotes Jesus: "I have come as a light into the world . . ." (John 12:46) F) Jesus quoted from 22 books of the Old Testament G) Around 3pm on Passover, just before dying for the sins of all mankind, Christ quoted from the first verse of Psalm 22 written by King David. H) There are 22 generations from Adam to Jacob. 3) Understanding how it was written The following is my 1st draft I started working on last year and this thread encouraged me to continue with it (It is not finished and I am not being dogmatic with it) Chapter 1-3 are a reading of 7 letters sent to the 7 churches. Chapter 4 encouragement & acknowledgement not part of the scroll of Revelation as was revealed to John as he describes the throne room in Heaven. Chapter 5 begins the reading of Scroll that only the Royal Priest is allowed to retrieve, open & read. -Only a Priest was allowed to go into the Holy of Hollies. -Only a King was allowed to Open & Read Scrolls sealed by a King with 7 seals. -A Royal Priesthood - But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 1 Peter 2:9 -The scrolls are opisthograph scroll (inside & outside) en.wiktionary.org/wiki/opisthograph"Then I saw in the right hand of him who was seated on the throne a scroll written within and on the back, sealed with seven seals. " -Divided between Worship Service in Heaven & Destruction on Earth -Exclusive Worship service in Heaven and the rest is destruction upon Earth -Heaven Service is divided into a Morning & Evening ceremony in the priestly edict -Revelation is divided into in to a 42-month & 42-month period -Opisthograph scrolls division shows you the order Chapter 6 - (1-6 Seals Opened) – Destruction on Earth - Side A of a Scroll Chapter 7 - Takes place in Heaven (Morning Service) in Heaven at the Throne - Side B of a Scroll Chapter 8 - (7th Seal & 1-4 Trumpets / 1st Woe) Destruction on Earth - Side A of a Scroll Chapter 9 - (1st Woe pass - 5th & 6th Trumpet - 4 Angels 2nd Woe) Destruction on Earth - Side A of a Scroll Chapter 10 - (The Angel - 7 Thunders & The Little Scroll) Takes Place in Heaven - Side B of a Scroll Chapter 11 - (2nd Woe Passes – 7th Trumpet) Takes Place in Heaven/Earth - Side A/B of a Scroll Chapter 12 - (Signs in Heavens / War in the Heavens - 3rd Woe) Takes Place in Heaven Side B of a Scroll Chapter 13- (the beast / false prophet / Image of the beast - Destruction on Earth - Side A of a Scroll Chapters 14 & 15 - Worship Service in Heaven - Side B of a Scroll Chapter 16 - (7 bowls) Destruction on Earth - Side A of a Scroll Chapter 17 & 18 - (Fall of Babylon) Destruction on Earth - Side A of a Scroll Chapter 19 - (Rejoicing/Marriage Supper [Side B?] & The Rider on White Horse [Side A?]) Chapter 20 – (2K Year – Defeat of Satan [Side A?] & Great White Throne [Side B?] Chapter 21 – New Heaven - New Earth - New Jerusalem Worship Service - Side B of a Scroll Chapter 22 – (Rivers of Life – Jesus is Coming [Alpha & Omega – Aleph & The Tav)]) Side B of a Scroll |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Nov 20, 2018 9:59:16 GMT -6
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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