|
Post by barbiosheepgirl on Nov 20, 2018 10:12:30 GMT -6
mikeI can Amen that video. I especially like the visual of the Field. The first fruits are the Seal of Approval that then will lead to a bigger larger Harvest...I see this Wheat Harvest in the parable of the wheat and the tares... this parable is NOT the revealing of the Sons of God, but a parable explaining the expansion of God's Kingdom when He removes the stumbling blocks and the lawlessness...after the first fruit event has happened. First fruits HAS to happen BEFORE a harvest of the wheat field...Praise and GLORY to Him as this Harvest appears to be a HUGE multitude! And His disciples came to Him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.” 37And He said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, 38and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; 39and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. 40“So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. 41“The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
hmmm..where is this in Revelation? Chapter 14 is the overview.. 6And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people; 7and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.”
8And another angel, a second one, followed, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who has made all the nations drink of the wine of the passion of her immorality.”
it is Mystery Babylon (comprised of tares) who is responsible for the stumbling blocks and lawlessness...her "destruction" leads to this Wheat Harvest.. I also like the guy's comment on those who exchange their birthright for a metaphorical bowl of soup...we are given a great birthright when we come to Faith...we should not let the world convince us to give it up...the church of Sardis explanation I can also Amen that...
|
|
|
Post by boraddict on Nov 20, 2018 13:16:01 GMT -6
3) Understanding how it was written The following is my 1st draft I started working on last year and this thread encouraged me to continue with it (It is not finished and I am not being dogmatic with it) Chapter 1-3 are a reading of 7 letters sent to the 7 churches. Chapter 4 encouragement & acknowledgement not part of the scroll of Revelation as was revealed to John as he describes the throne room in Heaven. Chapter 5 begins the reading of Scroll that only the Royal Priest is allowed to retrieve, open & read. -Only a Priest was allowed to go into the Holy of Hollies. -Only a King was allowed to Open & Read Scrolls sealed by a King with 7 seals. -A Royal Priesthood - But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 1 Peter 2:9 -The scrolls are opisthograph scroll (inside & outside) en.wiktionary.org/wiki/opisthograph"Then I saw in the right hand of him who was seated on the throne a scroll written within and on the back, sealed with seven seals. " -Divided between Worship Service in Heaven & Destruction on Earth -Exclusive Worship service in Heaven and the rest is destruction upon Earth -Heaven Service is divided into a Morning & Evening ceremony in the priestly edict -Revelation is divided into in to a 42-month & 42-month period -Opisthograph scrolls division shows you the order Chapter 6 - (1-6 Seals Opened) – Destruction on Earth - Side A of a Scroll Chapter 7 - Takes place in Heaven (Morning Service) in Heaven at the Throne - Side B of a Scroll Chapter 8 - (7th Seal & 1-4 Trumpets / 1st Woe) Destruction on Earth - Side A of a Scroll Chapter 9 - (1st Woe pass - 5th & 6th Trumpet - 4 Angels 2nd Woe) Destruction on Earth - Side A of a Scroll Chapter 10 - (The Angel - 7 Thunders & The Little Scroll) Takes Place in Heaven - Side B of a Scroll Chapter 11 - (2nd Woe Passes – 7th Trumpet) Takes Place in Heaven/Earth - Side A/B of a Scroll Chapter 12 - (Signs in Heavens / War in the Heavens - 3rd Woe) Takes Place in Heaven Side B of a Scroll Chapter 13- (the beast / false prophet / Image of the beast - Destruction on Earth - Side A of a Scroll Chapters 14 & 15 - Worship Service in Heaven - Side B of a Scroll Chapter 16 - (7 bowls) Destruction on Earth - Side A of a Scroll Chapter 17 & 18 - (Fall of Babylon) Destruction on Earth - Side A of a Scroll Chapter 19 - (Rejoicing/Marriage Supper [Side B?] & The Rider on White Horse [Side A?]) Chapter 20 – (2K Year – Defeat of Satan [Side A?] & Great White Throne [Side B?] Chapter 21 – New Heaven - New Earth - New Jerusalem Worship Service - Side B of a Scroll Chapter 22 – (Rivers of Life – Jesus is Coming [Alpha & Omega – Aleph & The Tav)]) Side B of a Scroll Bond, your work is interesting. 1) How do you determine that Chapter 4 was not part of the scroll of Revelation? 2) How do you determine that Chapter 5 begins the reading of Scroll? 3) How do you determine what chapter is on Side A and Side B? as follows: Chapter 5 is on what side? 6 is on side A 7 B 8 A 9 A 10 B 11 A/B 12 B 13 A 14-15 B 16 A 17-18 A 19 A/B 20 A/B 21 B 22 B Thus there are 9 on side A of the scroll, and 9 on side B of the scroll (not counting Chapter 5).
|
|
rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
|
Post by rondonmonson on Nov 20, 2018 14:39:08 GMT -6
Hi rondon, you have some good stuff in your Revelation analysis (the previous posting). As to the Barley harvest; it is the first fruits harvest of the new year. Although, to us it is more like the first fruits harvest of the new day. Whereas the wheat harvest comes later in the year and to us later in the day. Thus, the first harvest is the barley and the second harvest is the wheat. I realize that most Revelation analysis's see only one harvest, but I see three. The barley harvest includes the 144,000 and a multitude of Christ's followers who are ready when he returns, and the best prophecy within which to see this is the Parable of the Ten Virgins. Notice that the virgins are all Christ's followers; however, five were ready and five were not. Thus, the first are taken and the second must wait to be harvested when the tares are burned. This is also clearly shown in Rev. 14 where the 144,000 stand with Christ showing the barley harvest has taken place, and then the great multitude as the "cloud" who were enraptured in the barley harvest (14:14) witness the earth being reaped (v. 14:16) in the wheat harvest; the harvest of the wheat and the tares. Notice in the barley harvest there are no tares. That is, the rapture simply takes the saints who are ready. Those not ready must wait for the next harvest; the wheat. Last of all is the harvest of the grapes (vv. 14:18-20) that are crushed by Lord Jesus himself when he sends large stones upon the earth (v. 16:21). Also, the tares that are burned in the wheat harvest include the beast and false prophet (v. 19:20). So, in my opinion, the three harvests look as follows: 1) the barley harvest that is the rapture of those who are ready at the time Babylon is destroyed by the beast 2) the wheat harvest is the rapture of those who are ready at the time the beast is destroyed 3) the grape harvest is the destruction of mankind from the face of the earth. It is here that the resurrection of the dead takes place and the remainder of the saints who repent are taken from the earth. One thing that I did notice if my memory serves me correctly is that you show saints returning with Christ at some point in the tribulation. Can you elaborate upon this? Hi Boraddict, I was listening to Mike's video before commenting, I will have to listen a few more times before I can take that video in in full, I usually take my time thinking on things. Maybe my verbiage will be more intelligible this afternoon, when I get groggy my phrasing all seem to run together and become shoddy. I see multiple harvests in Rev. 14 also, I just never called one of them the barley harvest, so we are kinda on the same wave here with a few nuances here and there. I see Rev. 14:14 as the Rapture of the Church, notice Jesus is on a cloud and he himself thrusts in the sickle to harvest (rapture) and reap the earth which is ripe. In verses 18-20 an Angel thrusts in the sickle to reap or harvest the wicked (grapes) into the winepress of God's Wrath. So what gives with the 144,000 showing up on Mt Zion with Jesus ? I think we are given a vision/painting so to speak by Jesus of the harvests of the end times. We see Jesus and the 144,000 show up on Mt Zion, this is Jesus about to destroy the Beast and his minions at Armageddon (verses 18-20), we are then shown the Rapture/harvest of the Church in verse 14, and the harvest of the wicked tares in verses 18-20. The 144,000 represent the Jews who repented, whom God protected in Rev. ch. 7. So in essence it is three harvests as you suggest, I think maybe we have different orders, but we are pretty much in the same place here. (I just never called it the barley harvest, even though I understand it because I have studied the feasts). As per the Saints returning with Jesus, Rev. 19 says the Army of God (the Bride) returns on White Horses with Jesus. The white horses of course are just a metaphor for Conquerors.
|
|
|
Post by bondservant on Nov 21, 2018 12:58:10 GMT -6
3) Understanding how it was written The following is my 1st draft I started working on last year and this thread encouraged me to continue with it (It is not finished and I am not being dogmatic with it) Chapter 1-3 are a reading of 7 letters sent to the 7 churches. Chapter 4 encouragement & acknowledgement not part of the scroll of Revelation as was revealed to John as he describes the throne room in Heaven. Chapter 5 begins the reading of Scroll that only the Royal Priest is allowed to retrieve, open & read. -Only a Priest was allowed to go into the Holy of Hollies. -Only a King was allowed to Open & Read Scrolls sealed by a King with 7 seals. -A Royal Priesthood - But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 1 Peter 2:9 -The scrolls are opisthograph scroll (inside & outside) en.wiktionary.org/wiki/opisthograph"Then I saw in the right hand of him who was seated on the throne a scroll written within and on the back, sealed with seven seals. " -Divided between Worship Service in Heaven & Destruction on Earth -Exclusive Worship service in Heaven and the rest is destruction upon Earth -Heaven Service is divided into a Morning & Evening ceremony in the priestly edict -Revelation is divided into in to a 42-month & 42-month period -Opisthograph scrolls division shows you the order Chapter 6 - (1-6 Seals Opened) – Destruction on Earth - Side A of a Scroll Chapter 7 - Takes place in Heaven (Morning Service) in Heaven at the Throne - Side B of a Scroll Chapter 8 - (7th Seal & 1-4 Trumpets / 1st Woe) Destruction on Earth - Side A of a Scroll Chapter 9 - (1st Woe pass - 5th & 6th Trumpet - 4 Angels 2nd Woe) Destruction on Earth - Side A of a Scroll Chapter 10 - (The Angel - 7 Thunders & The Little Scroll) Takes Place in Heaven - Side B of a Scroll Chapter 11 - (2nd Woe Passes – 7th Trumpet) Takes Place in Heaven/Earth - Side A/B of a Scroll Chapter 12 - (Signs in Heavens / War in the Heavens - 3rd Woe) Takes Place in Heaven Side B of a Scroll Chapter 13- (the beast / false prophet / Image of the beast - Destruction on Earth - Side A of a Scroll Chapters 14 & 15 - Worship Service in Heaven - Side B of a Scroll Chapter 16 - (7 bowls) Destruction on Earth - Side A of a Scroll Chapter 17 & 18 - (Fall of Babylon) Destruction on Earth - Side A of a Scroll Chapter 19 - (Rejoicing/Marriage Supper [Side B?] & The Rider on White Horse [Side A?]) Chapter 20 – (2K Year – Defeat of Satan [Side A?] & Great White Throne [Side B?] Chapter 21 – New Heaven - New Earth - New Jerusalem Worship Service - Side B of a Scroll Chapter 22 – (Rivers of Life – Jesus is Coming [Alpha & Omega – Aleph & The Tav)]) Side B of a Scroll Bond, your work is interesting. 1) How do you determine that Chapter 4 was not part of the scroll of Revelation? 2) How do you determine that Chapter 5 begins the reading of Scroll? 3) How do you determine what chapter is on Side A and Side B? as follows: Chapter 5 is on what side? 6 is on side A 7 B 8 A 9 A 10 B 11 A/B 12 B 13 A 14-15 B 16 A 17-18 A 19 A/B 20 A/B 21 B 22 B Thus there are 9 on side A of the scroll, and 9 on side B of the scroll (not counting Chapter 5). Let me get back to you on this as I am still working this out. I definitely have some holes in my theory but I wanted to throw it out for discussion as a way to help me think through it... My problem at the moment is time. But I will say the way I am starting to see it is the scenes in Heaven are written on 1 side of the scroll(s) & the thing taking place are on the other side. I also think they are happening simultaneously. Have a Happy Thanksgiving as I am not sure how much I will be on until next week. I just didn't want you to think I was avoiding your questions.
|
|
|
Post by boraddict on Nov 21, 2018 13:27:42 GMT -6
Hi Boraddict, I was listening to Mike's video before commenting, I will have to listen a few more times before I can take that video in in full, I usually take my time thinking on things. Maybe my verbiage will be more intelligible this afternoon, when I get groggy my phrasing all seem to run together and become shoddy. I see multiple harvests in Rev. 14 also, I just never called one of them the barley harvest, so we are kinda on the same wave here with a few nuances here and there. I see Rev. 14:14 as the Rapture of the Church, notice Jesus is on a cloud and he himself thrusts in the sickle to harvest (rapture) and reap the earth which is ripe. In verses 18-20 an Angel thrusts in the sickle to reap or harvest the wicked (grapes) into the winepress of God's Wrath. So what gives with the 144,000 showing up on Mt Zion with Jesus ? I think we are given a vision/painting so to speak by Jesus of the harvests of the end times. We see Jesus and the 144,000 show up on Mt Zion, this is Jesus about to destroy the Beast and his minions at Armageddon (verses 18-20), we are then shown the Rapture/harvest of the Church in verse 14, and the harvest of the wicked tares in verses 18-20. The 144,000 represent the Jews who repented, whom God protected in Rev. ch. 7. So in essence it is three harvests as you suggest, I think maybe we have different orders, but we are pretty much in the same place here. (I just never called it the barley harvest, even though I understand it because I have studied the feasts). As per the Saints returning with Jesus, Rev. 19 says the Army of God (the Bride) returns on White Horses with Jesus. The white horses of course are just a metaphor for Conquerors. Thank you Rondon and it is nice to converse on the subject of the BoR as we all have done so many times. Where else can we go to get these kind of wonderful interactions on the subject of our hearts. Hats off to all the leaders of this board; thank you. If Chapter 14 is considered chronologically, then the 144,000 are with Christ at Zion (v. 14:1) prior to the harvest as as noted by the use of the sickles in Verses 14:14-20. In the harvest of Verses 14:14-16 wherein the earth was "reaped," one sat upon a white cloud (v. 14:14) and this links to Verse 1:7. That is, the one who is sitting upon the cloud is clearly the Savior and this is clarified in Verse 1:7 where "every eye shall see him and they also which pierced him." That is, everyone upon the earth will see him coming upon the white cloud that is referenced in Verse 14:14. However, the white cloud in Verse 14:14 is a metaphor, and as such whom does this white cloud represent but the 144,000 that were introduced in Verse 14:1. That is, if Lord Jesus comes upon a "white cloud" and Lord Jesus is seen in Verse 14:1 with the 144,000 then it stands to reason that the white cloud of Verse 14:14 is the 144,000 of Verse 14:1. Further evidence is that Lord Jesus is identified in Verses 19:11-16 and his "fouls" that are his 144,000 are called to gather in Verses 19:17-18; the "white cloud" of Verse 14:14. Since the fouls are being gathered by the call of the angel (v. 19:17) and this angel is not the Savior as identified in Verses 19:11-16, then this angel is the Saviors, let's say, right hand man. That is, The Lord of Lords (v. 19:16) is not the angel of Verse 19:17. No, this angel is "standing in the son" meaning standing with Christ. Does this sound familiar? The angel is standing with Christ at Verse 14:1 when he calls the fouls at Verse 19:17 to gather. Like I said, the fouls (v. 19:17-18) are the 144,000 of Verse 14:1. So how does this tie to Verse 14:14? The angel is "like unto the Son of Man." That is, the one that is on the white cloud is the Savior, and the one who is in charge of the Savior's 144,000 is his angel. I know this sounds a little confusing to say that the one upon the cloud (v. 14:14) is the angel after I said the one upon the cloud (v. 14:14) is the Savior; however, both statements are true because the angel is one of the 144,000. Thus, Lord Jesus is upon the cloud and every eye shall see him but also the angel that is "like unto the Son of Man" is on the cloud and that cloud in both Verses 1:7 and 14:14 represents the 144,000 of Verse 14:1. Thus, leading the 144,000 (v. 14:1) is the angel of Verse 19:17. Thus it follows in Verse 14:15 that "And another angel came out of the temple crying with a loud voice to him that sat upon the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle and reap for time has come for thee to reap for the harvest of the earth is ripe." Now this has to make you laugh; I mean, it does me. There is so much going on here that it spins my head. Wow! 1) So who is the temple? Okay, who is the sun in Verse 19:17 but Lord Jesus, and in that verse the angel standing in the Sun, or rather the angel standing with Christ (19:17 and 14:1) is the one "like unto the Son of Man" in Verse 14:14. Thus, Lord Jesus is the temple in Verse 14:15. Further evidence that Lord Jesus is the temple in Verse 14:15 is that he is the temple in Verse 21:22. Thus, Verse 14:15 reads "And another angel came out of Christ." Doesn't this make you laugh? We have another angel from Christ in addition to the angel of Verse 19:17. That is, at Verse 14:1 the Savior has two angels with him in addition to the remaining 144,000. The first angel has called the "fouls" that are the 144,000 to "gather" (v. 19:17) and now this second angel is telling the first to "Thrust in thy sickle (144,000) and reap." In other words there is a chain of command wherein the Savior instructs one angel who instructs another; the one upon the cloud of 144,000. 2) So who are the first and second angels? Hint: Verse 1:1. As you can see Verses 14:14-14-16 are more about an army reaping a harvest (vv. 19:19-21) than a rapture. That is, these verses pertain to the harvest of the wheat and the tares and not to a rapture in which a great multitude is spared military advances. That is, the great multitude who come out of great tribulation (v. 7:9, 13-14) are not the wheat who are harvested with the tares of 19:19-21 but the barley who come out of tribulation (vv. 19:1-10). That is, the barley harvest goes to the marriage (Matt. 25:10), not the wheat harvest. The barley harvest that is in Verses 19:1-10 and the wheat harvest that is in Verses 19:11-21. Side Note: I realize that some say the barley harvest took place when Christ arose from the tomb; but I think that is an entirely different subject matter than the last days harvests that we are speaking to. The Beast and his minions at Armageddon is the above stated warfare; however, there appear to be overlapping prophecies extending for a period of 3.5 years from Verse 14:14-20. That is, the 3.5 years opens with a silence (v. 8:1) with Christ and his 144,000 (v. 14:1), then the harvest of Verses 14:14-16 followed by another angel coming from Christ (the temple) having the 144,000 (v. 14:17). This second engagement of the 144,000 appears to be the wheat harvest of Chapter 10. I say that because that is where it should be and not because of scriptural evidence. Thus, the seven thunders (vv. 10:3-4) are speaking to the harvest of the wheat as does the little book that the angel has and John is instructed to eat. Following that is the interactions of the two angels in Verses 14:18-19 to gather the grapes to be pressed. Again this angel presides over the 144,000. So there is a lot going on in Verses 14:14-20 and I have yet to work it all the way through. However, what is known is that Armageddon may extend for the entire 3.5 year period of time and during that period the people of Israel are protected by the two witnesses that are the angel and John of Verses 1:1 and 10:8-11:3. "And the voice (Lord Jesus) which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth. And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey. And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter. And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings. And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. And I (Lord Jesus) will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth" (vv. 10:8-11:3).I mean to me it is pretty clear that the two witnesses are the angel and John of Verse 1:1 that are the two who are standing with Christ at Zion as explained above.
|
|
rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
|
Post by rondonmonson on Nov 21, 2018 15:52:24 GMT -6
Hi Boraddict, I was listening to Mike's video before commenting, I will have to listen a few more times before I can take that video in in full, I usually take my time thinking on things. Maybe my verbiage will be more intelligible this afternoon, when I get groggy my phrasing all seem to run together and become shoddy. I see multiple harvests in Rev. 14 also, I just never called one of them the barley harvest, so we are kinda on the same wave here with a few nuances here and there. I see Rev. 14:14 as the Rapture of the Church, notice Jesus is on a cloud and he himself thrusts in the sickle to harvest (rapture) and reap the earth which is ripe. In verses 18-20 an Angel thrusts in the sickle to reap or harvest the wicked (grapes) into the winepress of God's Wrath. So what gives with the 144,000 showing up on Mt Zion with Jesus ? I think we are given a vision/painting so to speak by Jesus of the harvests of the end times. We see Jesus and the 144,000 show up on Mt Zion, this is Jesus about to destroy the Beast and his minions at Armageddon (verses 18-20), we are then shown the Rapture/harvest of the Church in verse 14, and the harvest of the wicked tares in verses 18-20. The 144,000 represent the Jews who repented, whom God protected in Rev. ch. 7. So in essence it is three harvests as you suggest, I think maybe we have different orders, but we are pretty much in the same place here. (I just never called it the barley harvest, even though I understand it because I have studied the feasts). As per the Saints returning with Jesus, Rev. 19 says the Army of God (the Bride) returns on White Horses with Jesus. The white horses of course are just a metaphor for Conquerors. Thank you Rondon and it is nice to converse on the subject of the BoR as we all have done so many times. Where else can we go to get these kind of wonderful interactions on the subject of our hearts. Hats off to all the leaders of this board; thank you. If Chapter 14 is considered chronologically, then the 144,000 are with Christ at Zion (v. 14:1) prior to the harvest as as noted by the use of the sickles in Verses 14:14-20. In the harvest of Verses 14:14-16 wherein the earth was "reaped," one sat upon a white cloud (v. 14:14) and this links to Verse 1:7. That is, the one who is sitting upon the cloud is clearly the Savior and this is clarified in Verse 1:7 where "every eye shall see him and they also which pierced him." That is, everyone upon the earth will see him coming upon the white cloud that is referenced in Verse 14:14. However, the white cloud in Verse 14:14 is a metaphor, and as such whom does this white cloud represent but the 144,000 that were introduced in Verse 14:1. That is, if Lord Jesus comes upon a "white cloud" and Lord Jesus is seen in Verse 14:1 with the 144,000 then it stands to reason that the white cloud of Verse 14:14 is the 144,000 of Verse 14:1. Further evidence is that Lord Jesus is identified in Verses 19:11-16 and his "fouls" that are his 144,000 are called to gather in Verses 19:17-18; the "white cloud" of Verse 14:14. Since the fouls are being gathered by the call of the angel (v. 19:17) and this angel is not the Savior as identified in Verses 19:11-16, then this angel is the Saviors, let's say, right hand man. That is, The Lord of Lords (v. 19:16) is not the angel of Verse 19:17. No, this angel is "standing in the son" meaning standing with Christ. Does this sound familiar? The angel is standing with Christ at Verse 14:1 when he calls the fouls at Verse 19:17 to gather. Like I said, the fouls (v. 19:17-18) are the 144,000 of Verse 14:1. So how does this tie to Verse 14:14? The angel is "like unto the Son of Man." That is, the one that is on the white cloud is the Savior, and the one who is in charge of the Savior's 144,000 is his angel. I know this sounds a little confusing to say that the one upon the cloud (v. 14:14) is the angel after I said the one upon the cloud (v. 14:14) is the Savior; however, both statements are true because the angel is one of the 144,000. Thus, Lord Jesus is upon the cloud and every eye shall see him but also the angel that is "like unto the Son of Man" is on the cloud and that cloud in both Verses 1:7 and 14:14 represents the 144,000 of Verse 14:1. Thus, leading the 144,000 (v. 14:1) is the angel of Verse 19:17. Thus it follows in Verse 14:15 that "And another angel came out of the temple crying with a loud voice to him that sat upon the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle and reap for time has come for thee to reap for the harvest of the earth is ripe." Now this has to make you laugh; I mean, it does me. There is so much going on here that it spins my head. Wow! 1) So who is the temple? Okay, who is the sun in Verse 19:17 but Lord Jesus, and in that verse the angel standing in the Sun, or rather the angel standing with Christ (19:17 and 14:1) is the one "like unto the Son of Man" in Verse 14:14. Thus, Lord Jesus is the temple in Verse 14:15. Further evidence that Lord Jesus is the temple in Verse 14:15 is that he is the temple in Verse 21:22. Thus, Verse 14:15 reads "And another angel came out of Christ." Doesn't this make you laugh? We have another angel from Christ in addition to the angel of Verse 19:17. That is, at Verse 14:1 the Savior has two angels with him in addition to the remaining 144,000. The first angel has called the "fouls" that are the 144,000 to "gather" (v. 19:17) and now this second angel is telling the first to "Thrust in thy sickle (144,000) and reap." In other words there is a chain of command wherein the Savior instructs one angel who instructs another; the one upon the cloud of 144,000. 2) So who are the first and second angels? Hint: Verse 1:1. As you can see Verses 14:14-14-16 are more about an army reaping a harvest (vv. 19:19-21) than a rapture. That is, these verses pertain to the harvest of the wheat and the tares and not to a rapture in which a great multitude is spared military advances. That is, the great multitude who come out of great tribulation (v. 7:9, 13-14) are not the wheat who are harvested with the tares of 19:19-21 but the barley who come out of tribulation (vv. 19:1-10). That is, the barley harvest goes to the marriage (Matt. 25:10), not the wheat harvest. The barley harvest that is in Verses 19:1-10 and the wheat harvest that is in Verses 19:11-21. Side Note: I realize that some say the barley harvest took place when Christ arose from the tomb; but I think that is an entirely different subject matter than the last days harvests that we are speaking to. The Beast and his minions at Armageddon is the above stated warfare; however, there appear to be overlapping prophecies extending for a period of 3.5 years from Verse 14:14-20. That is, the 3.5 years opens with a silence (v. 8:1) with Christ and his 144,000 (v. 14:1), then the harvest of Verses 14:14-16 followed by another angel coming from Christ (the temple) having the 144,000 (v. 14:17). This second engagement of the 144,000 appears to be the wheat harvest of Chapter 10. I say that because that is where it should be and not because of scriptural evidence. Thus, the seven thunders (vv. 10:3-4) are speaking to the harvest of the wheat as does the little book that the angel has and John is instructed to eat. Following that is the interactions of the two angels in Verses 14:18-19 to gather the grapes to be pressed. Again this angel presides over the 144,000. So there is a lot going on in Verses 14:14-20 and I have yet to work it all the way through. However, what is known is that Armageddon may extend for the entire 3.5 year period of time and during that period the people of Israel are protected by the two witnesses that are the angel and John of Verses 1:1 and 10:8-11:3. "And the voice (Lord Jesus) which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth. And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey. And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter. And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings. And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. And I (Lord Jesus) will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth" (vv. 10:8-11:3).I mean to me it is pretty clear that the two witnesses are the angel and John of Verse 1:1 that are the two who are standing with Christ at Zion as explained above.Lots to chew on there my friend in Christ, Smile. I think I see the 144,000 in a different way from a lot of people because of the clues I have run across as per my studies on them. I see the 144,000 as a Metaphor for ALL ISRAEL or all of the Jews who repent during the tribulation week. So when we see 144,000 I see Israel who fled Judea unto the wilderness where God protects them, and I can show my reasonings in detail. I do not of course discount the way others see it, I just try to follow the facts, following old reasoning just because it's there can lead us off course I have found, so I try to always have my "ears" open to the voice of the spirit, no matter what the consensus may be at any given point in time. For one thing we see that this 144,000 "need protection" via chapter 7 and we see they live on earth. That might surprise some people, but we must use all the scriptures on the 144,000 and we must start in the first place we see them (Rev. 7). In Rev. 6 Jesus is opening the Seals which begats the Anti-Christ coming forth then in Rev. 7 we see God commands the Angels to hold up on bringing forth the Trumpet judgments when he says "hurt not the earth, sea nor trees, until the 144,000 are sealed in their foreheads. So they need protection from the plagues that God is going to bring via the trumpet judgments, which burn the trees, and hurts the seas and earth. This means they have to be human beings alive on earth, and who is God supposed to protect during this time ? In Revelation chapter 12 God protects the Woman (Israel, see Genesis 37:9 for the code) for 1260 days, so who else would it be besides Israel who are fleeing Judea when the Anti-Christ comes to power ? The number 12 represents fullness, thus 12 x 12 x 12 would mean All Israel or all the Jews (1/3) who repent and Flee Judea. This is why I started thinking that the 144,000 was a symbolic number for All Israel, or the Jews who repent then Flee Judea when they see the AoD. They need protection from the trumpet judgments, and this is all happening after the Seals but before the Trumpets, which fits perfectly with them fleeing from the Beast but needing the Angels to wait until they are in Petra before they start bringing forth the trumpet judgments. Then as we move to Rev. 14 we see in the very first verse another clue, they have the Father's name on their forehead meaning these are repentant Jews. I do think Rev. 14 is odd as per its order, but Revelation in general is odd in its order as we have agreed. If it was in perfect order then why flash back to Jesus on the clouds ? He is on Mt. Zion in verse 1, this is why I think its an end time vision that starts on Mt. Zion with Jesus returning, gathering the Jews who fled to Petra (144,00 symbolic number) into his barn with him, as they join the Armies of God that have returned from heaven (the Bride and Angels) on Mt Zion. Then we are shown, in my honest opinion, the Rapture because Jesus never descends to earth, but in Rev. 14:1 hes on Mt Zion. This matches verses that say we meet Jesus in the air when we are Raptured. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Then we are segued back to what is going on as Jesus and the "144,000" are on Mt Zion, they are of course heading to Armageddon to make war with the Beast and his armies on earth, which is the battle that has blood arising to the bridle of the horses. The wicked are thus harvested and bundled to be burned in 1000 years at the Second Resurrection. And by the way, I never laugh at others thoughts or understandings, when one is seeking God we need to always encourage them to keep searching because God will reveal His word to those that seek His face. I am offering 30 plus years of studies, blogging, preaching etc. etc. But I still learn new things every day, which is why I love the back and forth between fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. God Bless.........
|
|
|
Post by boraddict on Nov 21, 2018 18:11:51 GMT -6
Yes, thank you Rondon, you have a very good understanding of the BoR, and I agree with most of your conclusions.
I hope to see how you have linked the beast to the first three seals.
The beast linking to the fourth seal is relatively easy due to the four plagues in Verse 6:8 that links to Verse 18:8. Since Verse 18:8 is in the fall of Babylon Chapter, then the plagues of Verse 6:8 are at or after the fall of Babylon providing reasonable assurance that Death and Hell in that verse are the beast and his false prophet.
Also the association of the beast to the fifth seal is via the link "avenge" at Verse 18:20 (in the fall of Babylon chapter) to Verse 6:10.
Can you show the link of the beast to the sixth seal if you have it?
Also have you considered Ephraim in place of Judah.
|
|
rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
|
Post by rondonmonson on Nov 22, 2018 0:07:55 GMT -6
Yes, thank you Rondon, you have a very good understanding of the BoR, and I agree with most of your conclusions. I hope to see how you have linked the beast to the first three seals. The beast linking to the fourth seal is relatively easy due to the four plagues in Verse 6:8 that links to Verse 18:8. Since Verse 18:8 is in the fall of Babylon Chapter, then the plagues of Verse 6:8 are at or after the fall of Babylon providing reasonable assurance that Death and Hell in that verse are the beast and his false prophet. Also the association of the beast to the fifth seal is via the link "avenge" at Verse 18:20 (in the fall of Babylon chapter) to Verse 6:10. Can you show the link of the beast to the sixth seal if you have it? Also have you considered Ephraim in place of Judah. YW sister. For my study on the questions you enquired about I just gained some very valuable information, I had been looking at Bow all wrong, when I looked at it in like manner with the way the word crown is used it came to me in an oh my type of moment, I will explain later. A few people had been trying to convince me that "Bow" Rev. 6:2 probably referred to a rainbow like covenant, even though it means "fabric" or simple fabric in the Greek, so I wasn't buying my friends conjecture, and they were sure it had to mean what they were implying because of the covenant angle via the Anti-Christ and the Bow they stated must mean rainbow hence covenant because why would "simple fabric" apply in this instance !! But I wouldn't buy it, they had no concrete proof, they run things by me all the time. But I think I will surprise them with my finding this Sunday, LOL. Let me get to your questions.....The explanation will follow. I see all four horses thus all four seals as being about the Anti-Christ. Jesus opens the first seal which allows the Anti-Christ to go forth "Conquering and to conquer", he does so on a White Horse, which is a symbolic of a conqueror. In Rev. 19 we see Jesus and his Armies on White horses, signifying he is about to Conquer. The difference has always been the "CROWNS" John used different words on purpose as not to confuse us, some still try to say it's the same rider, but the text proves otherwise. The Greek word used for crown in Rev. 6:2 is Stephanos: #4735#4735 Stephanos from an apparently primary stepho (to twine or wreathe); 1) a crown 1a) a mark of royal or (in general) exalted rank 1a1) the wreath or garland which was given as a prize to
victors in public games. Whereas the word used for Crown in Rev. 19:12 where it says that rider (Jesus) had many crowns was the Greek word DIADEMA #1238 seems to indicate a Kingly ornament, many at that. 1) a diadem 1a) a blue band marked with white which Persian kings used to bind on the turban or tiara 1b) the kingly ornament for the head, the crownSo the one in Rev. 6:2 infers a Crown of twine won via a prize in some sort of game, meanwhile the word used for crown in Rev. 19:12 infers this Conqueror has many crowns and they were of kingly origins to boot. So the White horse Conqueror of Rev. 6 is someone winning a battle and thus a crown of a victor in battle, but of course Jesus' Crowns in Rev. 19 are the real deal, not something he won, he is the Son of God. Amen. This is when it hit me what Bow means in Rev. 6;2, we are speaking about a Crown made of a Wreath and a King wearing SIMPLE FABRIC !! So the bow means simple fabric as per the Greek and thus he's is not seen as Majestic like the other rider in Rev. 19:12, in other words he is no Jesus, he's a pretender !! Bow = the Greek word TOXON #5115
1) a bow —Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon) From the base of G5088; a bow (apparently as the simplest fabric):—bow. So he has a base crown won as a prize and he is described as wearing simple fabric. Thus he is nothing like Jesus who has many crowns, is the Son of God, and is majestic. My friends will be happy to hear this new info. I think......Anyway, that excited me, a new find. This White horse is the Anti-Christ Conquering thus he's the First Seal. The Red Horse is the Anti-Christ taking away the Peace from the Earth which tells us he comes to power via faking a peace to start with, instead of saying he brings wars, which he does, he is described as taking away the peace, thus he brought the peace unto earth to start with, thus the 2nd seal is about the Anti-Christ also. The Black horse is famine/pestilence, and wars begats these things, when the world fights they tend to not grow crops etc. etc. So I see this man as being at least partially responsible for bringing starvation unto the world also, thus the 3rd seal. The Pale Green Horse is the fourth seal, of course the Anti-Christ brings death and the grave (means the grave, not hell) and is responsible for countless deaths, anywhere from 1.5 billion to 2 billion people if my calculations are correct. As per the 5th seal, the Anti-Christ would be responsible for those deaths no doubt, so it's a testimony against his evil doings. As per the 6th Seal, I think that is all God, His plagues start getting more intense as they go. Isn't Ephraim Judah's son ?
|
|
|
Post by boraddict on Nov 22, 2018 1:39:53 GMT -6
Thank you Rondon for that analysis on the six seals showing the beast in each seal. It is a great work and much appreciated. While reading your post I quickly looked at Verse 6:2 and noticed that the crown "was given to him" supporting your supposition that the rider is the beast.
I also checked the crowns in Chapter 4 to see if they were given to the 24 elders and that was not noted; however, their crowns were cast before the throne. It is reasonable therefore that the crowns of Verse 19:12 were the crowns cast before the throne in Verse 4:10. This is a great subject to explore and some day I hope to devote some time to it.
Are you using "Judah" in place of Jacob (Israel), the father of the 12 tribes?
So in your opinion are the four horsemen the four plagues as referenced in Verses 6:8 and 18:8 and if so how do they apply? As follows perhaps:
1st horseman (plague), death (v. 6:8), death (v. 18:8), and this perhaps corresponds to Isaiah 18 2nd horseman (plague), kill with sword (v. 6:8), mourning (v. 18:8), 3rd horseman (plague), hunger (v. 6:8), famine (v. 18:8) 4th horseman (plague), with the beasts of the earth (v. 6:8), she shall be utterly burned with fire (v. 18:8, 17:16-17), this would be Rev. 17/13 5th seal, this would be Chapter 18 evidenced by the "avenged" link 6th seal, this would be Chapter 19 that follows Chapter 18 and the "avenged" link
Thus, the beast rises at the 1st horseman, killing with the sword and causing mourning at the 2nd horseman, and causing hunger and famine at the 3rd horseman and lastly the complete destruction of Babylon at the 4th horseman. I mean that is what I see. Then at the 5th seal Babylon is fallen, followed by the avenging in the sixth seal. That avenging includes the destruction of the beast and his army as noted in Verses 19:19-21.
So in the application of the woes, the first woe begins at the first horseman and the second woe begins at the 6th seal. This means that Verses 6:1-11 would harmonize with Verses 9:1-11, causing Verse 7:1 to be concurrent with Verse 6:1. Thus, the rapture of the barley harmonizes somewhere at the second and third horsemen. I would guess at the second horseman because that is where peace is taken from the earth meaning the barley harvest. Okay, I think it all works.
An additional item to support your supposition is that "death" as noted in the list of plagues and applied at the first horseman (above) is the name of the fourth horseman; Death, whereas, none of the other horsemen have any other name given.
In my opinion there is additional support for your supposition in Verses 18:21-24 that involves the barley harvest.
|
|
rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
|
Post by rondonmonson on Nov 22, 2018 12:45:05 GMT -6
Thank you Rondon for that analysis on the six seals showing the beast in each seal. It is a great work and much appreciated. While reading your post I quickly looked at Verse 6:2 and noticed that the crown "was given to him" supporting your supposition that the rider is the beast. I also checked the crowns in Chapter 4 to see if they were given to the 24 elders and that was not noted; however, their crowns were cast before the throne. It is reasonable therefore that the crowns of Verse 19:12 were the crowns cast before the throne in Verse 4:10. This is a great subject to explore and some day I hope to devote some time to it. Are you using "Judah" in place of Jacob (Israel), the father of the 12 tribes? So in your opinion are the four horsemen the four plagues as referenced in Verses 6:8 and 18:8 and if so how do they apply? As follows perhaps: 1st horseman (plague), death (v. 6:8), death (v. 18:8), and this perhaps corresponds to Isaiah 18 2nd horseman (plague), kill with sword (v. 6:8), mourning (v. 18:8), 3rd horseman (plague), hunger (v. 6:8), famine (v. 18:8) 4th horseman (plague), with the beasts of the earth (v. 6:8), she shall be utterly burned with fire (v. 18:8, 17:16-17), this would be Rev. 17/13 5th seal, this would be Chapter 18 evidenced by the "avenged" link 6th seal, this would be Chapter 19 that follows Chapter 18 and the "avenged" link Thus, the beast rises at the 1st horseman, killing with the sword and causing mourning at the 2nd horseman, and causing hunger and famine at the 3rd horseman and lastly the complete destruction of Babylon at the 4th horseman. I mean that is what I see. Then at the 5th seal Babylon is fallen, followed by the avenging in the sixth seal. That avenging includes the destruction of the beast and his army as noted in Verses 19:19-21. So in the application of the woes, the first woe begins at the first horseman and the second woe begins at the 6th seal. This means that Verses 6:1-11 would harmonize with Verses 9:1-11, causing Verse 7:1 to be concurrent with Verse 6:1. Thus, the rapture of the barley harmonizes somewhere at the second and third horsemen. I would guess at the second horseman because that is where peace is taken from the earth meaning the barley harvest. Okay, I think it all works. An additional item to support your supposition is that "death" as noted in the list of plagues and applied at the first horseman (above) is the name of the fourth horseman; Death, whereas, none of the other horsemen have any other name given. In my opinion there is additional support for your supposition in Verses 18:21-24 that involves the barley harvest. Good morning sister, at least its morning here. I don't think I quite understood the Judah, Jacob question. I think Manassas replaced Dan on the Rev. chapter 7 twelve tribe reference, legend has it that John did that because the Anti-Christ was rumored, at John's time, to be the tribe where the Anti-Christ would come from. I don't buy that because he has to be a Gentile. As per your inquiry into Rev. 6:8 and Rev. 18:8 maybe being linked, I can see that as a possibility, as a matter of fact I advocate that same position, but I go further. Remember I ended one of my posts with you with a question or challenge to identify who Babylon and wh the Harlot was, I think it was late and must have appeared like a jumbled mess so you probably didn't get the question. I WILL COPY AND PASTE IT : BELOW: BOLDED.Chapters 17 and 18 we can speak of in full tomorrow, the coffee isn't helping me much now, getting sleepy. Remember, the Angel in Rev. 16 says IT IS DONE !! So Rev. 18 has to end at the same time !! Rev. 17 is the Harlot getting killed off in Rev. 17:16, I see her as being done away with early on in chapter 6 or a little later. The question then is WHO IS SHE ? Ahhh. Tell who the Harlot is and who Babylon is. It's a challenge.
I think we need to identify the Harlot (I have a blog on this that is like 2 years old), Babylon and even the Seven Headed Beast which is the easiest of all three. Then once we get the identities of the players we will have a much easier time understanding the meaning of each of these chapters. The Angel in Rev. 17:7 stated he was going to show us the "Mystery" of the Harlot and the Beast she rides, thus it should cease being a mystery (musterion = secret by God's silence) as the Angel explains it to us in Rev. 17:8-18. Basically what you gave s a two sided coin, a Religious (False Religion) Harlot who has been co-mingled with the Government Beasts throughout history, thus she rides the Beasts back. Babylon per Nimrod and his wife/mother Semiramis was both a Great Kingdom and a False Religious center of Harlotry. Down through the ages all of these Kingdoms worshiped false gods. 1.) Harlot = All False Religion of all time. 2.) The Seven Headed Beast represents all of the Kingdoms in the Mediterranean Sea Region that has ruled over the area and Israel down through the ages. Israel was as Dead men' Bones for nigh 2000 years, then God brought then back to life in 1948 thus there could be no Beast over them from Roman times until this very day, but he will arise again when the Church is Raptured. 3.)Babylon = Satan's Dark Kingdom on earth. It's an order of confusion that Satan has thrust upon our world via deception, lies etc. In Rev. 16:9 w are told when the Nations fall to Jesus that God sees them as Babylon when He places them in the winepress of His wrath. We see in Vial #6 these are Kings of the WHOLE WORLD, thus Babylon = the whole evil world. In Rev. 17:16 we understand the Kings in league with the Beast kill off the Harlot, by understanding THE PLAYERS, we now can understand the moves being made by these players, that is why I identified the players first. The Beast wants to be worshiped as the only god (Rev. 13) thus in his Kingdom there is no place for Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism or any other religion, so when it says they kill off the Harlot, it means they destroy Islam and any religion that the Beast sees as taking away his glory. As we all know, Rev. 13 says every man must serve hm or perish. So the Harlot is killed off, IMHO, early on in Rev. ch. 6 as part of the DEATHS of that chapter, he has to have that first on his agenda if he wants to rule the world. The Seven Headed Beast is easy, it's just showing how many Beasts has been over Israel down through the ages, Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome and the coming Little Horn or Anti-Christ. Its metaphoric in nature, but each represent real kingdoms, the last being the Man of Sin himself. Babylon that is destroyed in Rev. 18 is kind of like you describe, except I see it as the whole world (Babylon) getting hit by all the Seal, Trumpet and Vial judgments of God. The whole world that serves Satan is under judgment. However I do not see the Seals, Trumpets and Vials as concurring events, I think they are continuous events that rain down one by one in a linear mode. That is why I see Rev. 17 and 18 as starting at the midway point (1260) or in Rev. ch. 6. Whilst the Rev. 17 (False Religion) Harlot gets taken out quickly, the Rev. 18 actions against Babylon last from Rev. 6 first Seal to Rev. 16, the 7th Vial. My first inclination that these were different entities was the fact the the kings in Rev. 17:16 HATE the Harlot but the same Kings in Rev. 18 CRY & LAMENT when Babylon is being burned/destroyed. Getting the players right is essential to understanding Revelation. I am distracted by a call to eat, so pardon me. We have a lot of people over, I better get off here.....God bless.
|
|
|
Post by boraddict on Nov 22, 2018 17:41:00 GMT -6
Thank you Rondon and I did my fill of turkey as well. Needless to say, no one cut into the pies because the main course was so good. We had a special dish of mash potatoes-onions-carrots, as well as a whole corn custard cream dish and sweet potatoes with a crumb/pecans mix sprinkled on top, and so much more. Kings for the past thousands of years did not eat as well as we do today.
My question about Judah is because he is one of the 12 sons of Jacob (Israel). Are you using the name "Judah" to represent the 12 tribes of Israel (Jacob), or are you using the name "Judah" to represent the tribe of Judah specifically. One group (Israel) includes the followers of Christ, and the other group (Judah) includes only those people of Jewish descent. That is, in what context do you use the name "Judah" in your work. I just need you to define it for me that I can understand what you mean when you say "Judah."
One definition that is generally accepted in the Christian community is that "the kings of the earth" in the BoR means the rulers that are on the side of the beast. However, please consider that the "kings of the earth" are the 144,000 and this is supported as follows:
1) Any "king of the earth" remaining after Christ takes control of the earth is one of Christ's kings. An example of this is Verse 17:14 wherein Christ is "Lord of lords, and King of kings." Since these kings are upon the earth then these are "kings of the earth." 2) Christ is the "prince of the kings of the earth" (v. 1:5). Therefor, these "kings of the earth" are Christ's kings. 3) Christ has "made us unto our God kings and priests and we shall reign upon the earth" (v. 5:10). Thus, these whom are made kings by Christ are "kings of the earth." 4) And the last reference that I will provide to support that the "kings of the earth" in the BoR are the kings of Christ is Verse 19:19 in chiasmus form as follows:
"And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies gathered together to make war, against him that sat upon the horse, and against his army."
This chiasmus is of the form:
A,B chiasmus center A,B
I have found two others in the BoR of this form and they all are brilliantly done. So read A, A, B, B, like:
A against A chiasmus center B against B
"And I saw the beast against him that sat upon the horse, and their armies gathered together to make war, and the kings of the earth against his army."
The kings of the earth are Christ's army that are against the army of the beast. I would like to know if John built that chiasmus on his own or if Lord Jesus gave it to him. It is absolutely brilliant.
|
|
|
Post by boraddict on Nov 22, 2018 21:18:36 GMT -6
One definition that is generally accepted in the Christian community is that "the kings of the earth" in the BoR means the rulers that are on the side of the beast. However, please consider that the "kings of the earth" are the 144,000 and this is supported as follows: 1) Any "king of the earth" remaining after Christ takes control of the earth is one of Christ's kings. An example of this is Verse 17:14 wherein Christ is "Lord of lords, and King of kings." Since these kings are upon the earth then these are "kings of the earth." 2) Christ is the "prince of the kings of the earth" (v. 1:5). Therefor, these "kings of the earth" are Christ's kings. 3) Christ has "made us unto our God kings and priests and we shall reign upon the earth" (v. 5:10). Thus, these whom are made kings by Christ are "kings of the earth." 4) And the last reference that I will provide to support that the "kings of the earth" in the BoR are the kings of Christ is Verse 19:19 in chiasmus form as follows: " And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies gathered together to make war, against him that sat upon the horse, and against his army." This chiasmus is of the form: A,B chiasmus center A,B I have found two others in the BoR of this form and they all are brilliantly done. So read A, A, B, B, like: A against A chiasmus center B against B " And I saw the beast against him that sat upon the horse,and their armies gathered together to make war, and the kings of the earth against his army." The kings of the earth are Christ's army that are against the army of the beast. I would like to know if John built that chiasmus on his own or if Lord Jesus gave it to him. It is absolutely brilliant. Oh, I forgot to include my point! The "kings of the earth" in Revelation 18:9 are the 144,000. They are crying when they see Babylon fall because they were fornicating with her. They had embraced Babylon as noted in Verse 17:2. These are the saints of God who cheat on him. That is, we are all sinners and cheat on our God. Nevertheless, he washes us clean of that fornication. "The prince of the kings of the earth; unto him that loved us and washed us from our sins (of fornication with Babylon) in his own blood" (v. 1:5). Rondon, as you have noted in your last post, "the kings in Rev. 17:16 HATE the Harlot"; however, these kings of Verse 17:16 are not the kings of the earth of Chapter 18 but kings who share their power one hour with the beast (v. 17:12). They are not the kings of the earth that are Christ's in Chapter 18, etc.
|
|
rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
|
Post by rondonmonson on Nov 22, 2018 22:18:23 GMT -6
Thank you Rondon and I did my fill of turkey as well. Needless to say, no one cut into the pies because the main course was so good. We had a special dish of mash potatoes-onions-carrots, as well as a whole corn custard cream dish and sweet potatoes with a crumb/pecans mix sprinkled on top, and so much more. Kings for the past thousands of years did not eat as well as we do today. My question about Judah is because he is one of the 12 sons of Jacob (Israel). Are you using the name "Judah" to represent the 12 tribes of Israel (Jacob), or are you using the name "Judah" to represent the tribe of Judah specifically. One group (Israel) includes the followers of Christ, and the other group (Judah) includes only those people of Jewish descent. That is, in what context do you use the name "Judah" in your work. I just need you to define it for me that I can understand what you mean when you say "Judah." One definition that is generally accepted in the Christian community is that "the kings of the earth" in the BoR means the rulers that are on the side of the beast. However, please consider that the "kings of the earth" are the 144,000 and this is supported as follows: 1) Any "king of the earth" remaining after Christ takes control of the earth is one of Christ's kings. An example of this is Verse 17:14 wherein Christ is "Lord of lords, and King of kings." Since these kings are upon the earth then these are "kings of the earth." 2) Christ is the "prince of the kings of the earth" (v. 1:5). Therefor, these "kings of the earth" are Christ's kings. 3) Christ has "made us unto our God kings and priests and we shall reign upon the earth" (v. 5:10). Thus, these whom are made kings by Christ are "kings of the earth." 4) And the last reference that I will provide to support that the "kings of the earth" in the BoR are the kings of Christ is Verse 19:19 in chiasmus form as follows: " And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies gathered together to make war, against him that sat upon the horse, and against his army." This chiasmus is of the form: A,B chiasmus center A,B I have found two others in the BoR of this form and they all are brilliantly done. So read A, A, B, B, like: A against A chiasmus center B against B " And I saw the beast against him that sat upon the horse,and their armies gathered together to make war, and the kings of the earth against his army." The kings of the earth are Christ's army that are against the army of the beast. I would like to know if John built that chiasmus on his own or if Lord Jesus gave it to him. It is absolutely brilliant. As I age I find that I don't like stuffing myself or I will pay for it with indigestion later on. I guess you are referencing when I say "Jews or flee Judea". When the 10 tribes were taken away by Assyria, most people say they are lost, but one seed passed on keeps the seed alive of any group of people. The Northern tribes were evil at that point in time, they worshiped false gods and built hgh places to worship these devils. The Levite tribe thus moved in full to Judah, they were of the priesthood and wanted no part of the wickedness. Likewise others from the 10 tribes no doubt moved to Judah who were Godly people who feared God. I would imagine some people who loved evil moved from Judah to the Northern Kingdoms. Thus when the 10 tribes were taken away for their wickedness, all 12 tribes via migration of some portion, lived in Judah, but God has saved a remnant from every one of his tribes, even though they might all be called Jews now. It's kinda like a "coke" means a drink in general in some places, the Jews mean all of Israel so we don't have to name every tribe and since Jesus stated they would be fleeing Judah. Right or wrong, that is kinda how the term is used now, I guess I should say Israel. As per the Kings of the Earth:
1.) When does Jesus actually take over the kingdoms of the earth ? Some say Rev. 11, but that chapter is a Parenthetical Citation, some say Rev. 14 but likewise. Both of those end time events are the Armageddon battle. Rev. 11:15 is the 7th Trumpet which is the 3rd Woe which is all 7 Vials of Rev. 16. Rev. 14:18-20 is Armageddon also. So Jesus takes over at Armageddon in Revelation 16:19, and the Angel says IT IS DONE so this ends the reign of the Beast and the Lordship of Satan over the earth. Rev. 17, is a middle of the week event, it doesn't happen after Rev. 16, nor can it. So those kings of Rev. 17 are a part of the Beast system, as we see in Rev. 17:12-13, they give their power unto the Beast and thus rule for one hour (which means 42 months) with the Beast. Rev. 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. 2.) I agree, Jesus is all powerful, he just has to take away the power we gave to Satan by following him when Adam and Eve fell. Satan now has the deed, Jesus will take it back shortly. 3.) Rev. 5:10 is the Church/Bride in heaven, so we are kings of the earth as the Church because we have all power over Satan, he can't overcome the Church. 4.) Well there are two armies there, the first blue highlight would be the Beasts Armies, your second blue highlight would be Jesus' Armies. We know there will be no fight, Jesus will speak victory just like he spoke creation, that is why Daniel says he will win "WITHOUT HANDS" it means he speaks victory. Amen. We have to look back at the Armageddon battle to see who the players are. Rev. 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. So the Demonic Spirits gather these Kings of the earth to Armageddon to fight against God Almighty. The Kings of the east I think is Iran and Iraq and they represent the first Beast and Persia the 2nd Beast. The European Union is where the Beast arises, he is born in Greece (via my studies) and comes to power in the E.U. so the 3rd Beast and 4rth Beast is represented here also. Then we get the Kings of the whole earth also, and I think Rev. 16:19 shows that God sees this contingent above as Babylon. Rev. 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. 18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake(Jesus lands on Mt Zion), such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19 And the great city(Jerusalem/EARTHQUAKE) was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell(Those Nations/Kings of the WHOLE WORLD:) and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. So God sees those Kings gathered from the whole world as Babylon, and gives them fierceness of His Wrath (Rev. 14:18-20) when they fall to Jesus who proclaims victory via the sword of his mouth. Jesus lands on Mt Zion, an Earthquake like never before splits Mt Zion into, the Dead Sea will live again, and Jesus will defeat these Armies that gather at Armageddon. That's my take sister, I think Jesus will have to do away with the Wicked when he returns. Have a wonderful Holiday Weekend. Come Lord come. I am ready to meet the Savior, Amen. But while on earth, we will continue to spread the Gospel. P.S., I will do another post to reply to you addendum. God Bless.
|
|
|
Post by boraddict on Nov 23, 2018 2:49:25 GMT -6
Rondon your last posting was a great come back because I thought I had the "kings of the earth" metaphor sewn up in my favor. Doesn't that make you laugh? It does me. I love your analysis and it is so close to mine in the overall stratagem of the BoR. I had recently worked on Verse 16:14 and should have used it as one of my examples. Oh, by the way, thanks for clarifying Judah. You quoted Rev. 16:12, "And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. " And your conclusion was: "So the Demonic Spirits gather these Kings of the earth to Armageddon to fight against God Almighty." In my examination of Verses 16:12-14, I find the following: 1) A false godhead represented by the dragon, beast, and false prophet (v. 16:13). Thus, it is easy to see that these verses pertain to the beast and his false prophet as we formerly discussed that are first mentioned in Chapter 6 with the seals, and that was a great find on your part so thanks for sharing. Further, in support of the false godhead that is referenced in Verse 16:13 is the second woe of Chapter 9 where we are given additional details about the war. To correctly analyze Verses 9:13-21 we need to first understand the "smoke" metaphor. Since the language of Verse 9:2 states "as the smoke of a great furnace" then we can say it was not the smoke of the great furnace but "as" or like the smoke of the great furnace. Thus, if the "smoke" (v. 9:2) is like the smoke of the great furnace (v. 9:2) but not the smoke of the great furnace (v. 9:2) then the smoke in Verse 9:2 must be from the beast. That is, the smoke that is like the smoke of the Savior is the smoke of the beast (v. 9:2). The great furnace (v. 9:2) is a metaphor for Lord Jesus and this is revealed in Genesis 15:17 wherein there is a contractual agreement between Christ and Abraham and it is signified by them passing "between the pieces." Thus, in Gen. 15:17 Lord Jesus is the smoking furnace and Abraham is the burning lamp. That is, they came to a covenant agreement by which Abraham was reassured that he would have posterity. Thus, the smoking furnace of Gen. 15:7 is the great furnace of Verse 9:2 and that is Lord Jesus. Thus, the smoke metaphor (vv. 9:17-18) ties to Christ as the one who purifies us through burning trials. That is, in scripture smoke is the evidence of our burning via Christ. Thus, Verse 9:17 states: "And thus I saw the horses (v. 19:14) in the vision and them that sat on them (v. 19:14) having breastplates of fire (representing God the Father), and of jacinth (representing the Son), and of brimstone (representing the Holy Ghost), and the heads (riders) of the horses were the heads of lions (representing God), and out of their (the riders) mouths issued fire (from The Father), and smoke (from Lord Jesus), and brimstone (from the Holy Ghost). Thus, the 144,000 that represent the Godhead have absolute power and authority from God in the Battle of Armageddon and they are absolutely devastating. Verse 9:18, "And by these three (The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost), was the third part of men killed, by the fire (The Father), and the smoke (The Son), and by the brimstone (The Holy Ghost) which issued out of their mouths (the 144,000). 2) Back to Verses 16:12-14. a. Like you I do not know who the metaphor "kings of the east" in Verse 16:2 represents but it appears to link to Verse 7:2. b. The three unclean spirits like gods (frogs) out of the mouth of the false godhead (v. 16:13) parallels the 144,000 having the power of God out of the mouth the true Godhead (vv. 9:17-18). Thus, the three unclean spirits are the 200 thousand thousand of Verse 9:16. c. The spirits of devils in Verse 16:14 are the three unclean spirits of Verse 16:13 that are the 200 thousand thousand of Verse 9:16. d. The miracles worked by the devils is the deceiving (vv. 13:14) that goes forth to gather the armies and people of the earth against God. e. The kings of the earth are the 144,000 who are sent from God. f. And "the whole world" refers to not only the beasts army of 200 thousand thousand but 1/3rd of the population of the earth who support that army (v. 9:18). Thus, Verse 16:14 reads: "For they are the spirits of devils working miracles (the beast's army of 200 thousand thousand), which go forth unto the kings of the earth (the 144,000), and the whole world (1/3rd of mankind), to gather them (the 144,000 and 1/3rd of the earth's population) to the battle (of Armageddon) of that great day of God Almighty. Since it is not possible to gather @ 2 billion people to the nation state of Israel for the Battle of Armageddon, then I am of the opinion that the Battle of Armageddon must be waged throughout the earth.
|
|
rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
|
Post by rondonmonson on Nov 23, 2018 13:41:09 GMT -6
One definition that is generally accepted in the Christian community is that "the kings of the earth" in the BoR means the rulers that are on the side of the beast. However, please consider that the "kings of the earth" are the 144,000 and this is supported as follows: 1) Any "king of the earth" remaining after Christ takes control of the earth is one of Christ's kings. An example of this is Verse 17:14 wherein Christ is "Lord of lords, and King of kings." Since these kings are upon the earth then these are "kings of the earth." 2) Christ is the "prince of the kings of the earth" (v. 1:5). Therefor, these "kings of the earth" are Christ's kings. 3) Christ has "made us unto our God kings and priests and we shall reign upon the earth" (v. 5:10). Thus, these whom are made kings by Christ are "kings of the earth." 4) And the last reference that I will provide to support that the "kings of the earth" in the BoR are the kings of Christ is Verse 19:19 in chiasmus form as follows: " And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies gathered together to make war, against him that sat upon the horse, and against his army." This chiasmus is of the form: A,B chiasmus center A,B I have found two others in the BoR of this form and they all are brilliantly done. So read A, A, B, B, like: A against A chiasmus center B against B " And I saw the beast against him that sat upon the horse,and their armies gathered together to make war, and the kings of the earth against his army." The kings of the earth are Christ's army that are against the army of the beast. I would like to know if John built that chiasmus on his own or if Lord Jesus gave it to him. It is absolutely brilliant. Oh, I forgot to include my point! The "kings of the earth" in Revelation 18:9 are the 144,000. They are crying when they see Babylon fall because they were fornicating with her. They had embraced Babylon as noted in Verse 17:2. These are the saints of God who cheat on him. That is, we are all sinners and cheat on our God. Nevertheless, he washes us clean of that fornication. "The prince of the kings of the earth; unto him that loved us and washed us from our sins (of fornication with Babylon) in his own blood" (v. 1:5). Rondon, as you have noted in your last post, "the kings in Rev. 17:16 HATE the Harlot"; however, these kings of Verse 17:16 are not the kings of the earth of Chapter 18 but kings who share their power one hour with the beast (v. 17:12). They are not the kings of the earth that are Christ's in Chapter 18, etc. I haven't forgot you sister, I was replying to venge, who seems to be very knowledgeable on the BoR. And a nice gent to boot from reading most of his posts. Instead of trying to reply to a few points here, since I have time today, and am lazy, lol, I will do an in general mini exegesis on Rev. 18 as per the way I see it where you can know where I am coming from on that chapter, then we can go from there. I won't C&P the whole chapter, but about 10 or 11 verses to help explain it. I hate pasting verses, I usually just try to paraphrase it in general terms, but in this instance it is seemingly needed, or it has been in the past when I have discussed it because it can be a confusing chapter. The Church is Raptured to Heaven, the Beast chases Israel into the wilderness (Petra) so all men who are left according to Rev. 13 will serve the Beast or die. These men serving the Beast is Harlotry before God, we are all God's creation, and any worship of any god is seen by God as Harloty in His eyes, He is a jealous God. Babylon of Rev. 18. Rev. 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. {{{ Babylon being a habitation of devils signifies Satan has been cast down unto earth and Apollyon and his hordes of demons released from the pit via Woe #1. }}}3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. {{{ Babylon represents this evil world, Jesus told us if we love this world then the love of God is not in us. This world as of now, is in the image of Satan, not Jesus, we the Church are the image of Jesus but just look at this evil world, abortion (1 billion of them worldwide is stench before God), homosexual marriage, lies, murders, etc. etc. etc. I mean 2 billion Muslims are serving false gods !! Now a lot of Christians do go along with worldly events/happenings, but by this time the Church will have been Raptured to Heaven. This is speaking of the LEADERS (Kings) of the world in general, and the merchants (MONEY MEN) who have fornicated with the Wicked ways of Satan for gains sake, they have grown rich by partaking in Satan's evil ways (delicacies) they have promoted Homosexual marriage as leaders/kings and the merchants have also, anything to make a dollar is what's being spoken of here. These merchants sell porn, evil movies, drugs, Cigs. etc., they will do anything for a buck including ripping people off. Then we see God calling Israel to come out of her (this evil world) in verse 4 so that she doesn't partake in Babylon's evil ways and thus receive the Plagues that is going to be rained down upon her. In other words, the 1/3 of the Jews who repent must also flee Judea to keep from getting the Plagues of God rained down upon them. God is informing us here that He is about to bring plagues upon Babylon (the whole world) because her sins have come full, as verse 5 below states, her sins have reached unto Heaven. }}}5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. 6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. 7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. {{{ Is this above not just like our supposed "enlightened leaders", Hollywood types and the atheists of the world today ? They sin, sin and sin again, openly defying God and His commandments, they glorify themselves in their sins, they revel in it, they live deliciously in their evil sins, they love sin more than God !! They say in their hearts, I am a queen, I shall see no sorrow from this fake god !! They don't think they are a widow, but they are, Satan will be defeated and thus the love of their lives, the ruler of Babylon will be defeated. Amen. }}} 8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, {{{ Babylon's Plagues shall come in "ONE DAY" means 42 months. So the world (Babylon) gets hit by the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments over a 42 month period, from the first Seal to the 7th Vial (Day of the Lord). The death, mourning and plagues thus identify these actions by God, which verses 5 and 6 said was coming upon her (Babylon/this world). She is burned with fire !! Well, yes of course she is, the very first Trumpet sees all the grasses of the whole world burned and 1/3 of all the trees burned, look at California's fires in the past few weeks, NOW THINK 1/3 of all the trees in the whole world burning at one time !! Just wow, that would be devastating to lives lost and thus unto the economy also !! We have to paint these pictures to see it, I am Rembrandt (LOL). The above verses show that it is God that is bringing this judgment upon her (Babylon/world) and against the Kings/leaders of the world, who have committed fornication with Babylon/Satan who rules this world, as he told Jesus in Luke chapter 4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. Thus when they see Babylon (this world burning) they cry and lament her burning. }}}10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. 11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: 12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble, 13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men. {{{ Again, "ONE HOUR" means 42 months here also, we know this by looking back at the Kings who give their power unto the Beast and thus rule ONE HOUR with the Beast in chapter 17. The Plagues coming in ONE DAY reference in verse 8 refers to the Day of the Lord which is a 3.5 year period, the one hour reference as I explained above refers to the Beasts 42 month rule as being one hour. These are metaphoric symbols of course. That tells us this judgment on Babylon(World) lasts how long ? Well, of course 42 months !! So what does that mean in light of this new info ? It means that the Plagues/judgments that befall Babylon/world are the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments that destroy her (Worlds) commerce. Of course when the Anti-Christ is released and he brings wars and slays something like 1.5 to 2 billion people the economy is going to take a huge hit, "No man buys our goods anymore they say". Then we get the 6th seal earthquake, the sun and moon events show light not shining on earth as per usual and of course that makes crops harder to grow (famine). The Trumpet judgments bring the fires, then the 1/3 of the seas are turned to blood, 1/3 of the sea creatures die off (think fish/shrimp) and 1/3 of the drinking waters are poisoned, that is bad for commerce no doubt, you see it's all tied together. Then we get the three Woes. The Demon hordes, the 200 Million army that I see as an Angelic Army of God bringing Plagues, and these beings slay another 1.5 Billion people, so that is 3 to 4 billion people who have perished. All of these things are horrible for the world's (Babylons) economies, and the Vials have not even been poured out yet !! That is the reason its OK to stop here, the basic picture has been painted. Babylon = the World under Satan's rule and all who follow him. God is going to judge this evil world and rain down plagues upon this world just before He sends Jesus back to take over for good. }}}Basically Babylon represents the World under Satan's dark rule.
|
|