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Post by boraddict on Nov 23, 2018 22:32:59 GMT -6
Thank you Rondon, there is a lot to Chapter 18, although it was never my first love. No, after rejecting that chapter coldly for quite some time, I did in the end warm up to its laze-fare character. So what Chapter was I drawn to all those years ago? None other than Chapter 14 with all the flash and highlights.  The following is the order of my favorites: 14, because it begins with the 144,000 standing with Christ and systematically works through the harvest. 12, the truly mind blowing chapter 17, the kingpin of the second half of the book 19, the champion of all chapters 6, "Oh how did we part the ways." This is by far the funnest chapter 10, "Do you really want to think about something." This is the dull tooth pulling chapter . 1, "any time you can link to Chapter 1, do it"! 9, "have some fun with two woes" 18, the saddest chapter of all And that is how I see Chapter 18. The chiasmus center is at Verse 18:14 that links six times to Verses 21-24 via "no more at all" as follows: 1) " shalt find them no more at all" (v. 18:14) 2) " shall be found no more at all" (v. 18:21) 3) " shall be heard no more at all" (v. 18:22) 4) " shall be found any more in thee" (v. 18:22), center 5) " shall be heard no more at all" (v. 18:22 6) " shall shine no more at all" (v. 18:23) 7) " shall be heard no more at all" (v. 18:23) With that much emphasis upon Verse 18:14 it is easy to see that it is the primary focus of the chapter. So what does this verse say? "And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all." I know what you might be thinking. So what? NO! Take a very close look at the verse; it is compelling. Okay, I will say it. The verse is personal to the reader. Lord Jesus is saying to you and I, "And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all." Okay, look at the chiasmus as follows: v. 18:9 v. 18:10
v. 18:11
v. 18:12
v. 18:13
v. 18:14
v. 18:15
v. 18:16
v. 18:17
v. 18:18
v. 18:19
So what does it mean? It shows that when Babylon falls, we are still here wanting our things.
Then, we are taken on the rapture as noted in Verses 18:21-24 because we are no longer here.
Thus, all these people in Verses 18:21-24 that are the craftsman, harpers, merchants, etc., that links to Verse 18:3 and further back to Verse 17:2 have committed fornication with Babylon, and this is the Lord's Church. That is, Chapter 18 is about the saints of God at the time of Babylon's fall.
From that comes the marriage in Chapter 19. Thus, the order is:
1) Babylon falls (Chapter 17)
2) Saints are enraptrued (Chapter 18)
3) The marriage (vv. 19:1-10)
4) Armageddon (vv. 19:11-21)
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Post by boraddict on Nov 24, 2018 11:01:24 GMT -6
In my previous posting I explained the chronological connection between Chapters 17, 18, and 19 as follows:
1) Babylon falls (Chapter 17)
2) Saints are enraptured (Chapter 18)
3) The marriage (vv. 19:1-10)
4) Armageddon (vv. 19:11-21
And in my first posting on this thread was the chiasmus for the BoR as follows:
Ch.1-3 message to the churches
Ch. 4-6 resurrection
Ch. 6-8 last days events
Ch. 8-11 trumpets
Ch. 12 the emphasis of the book, the woman and the dragon, the chapter 12 sign
Ch. 13-14 the beast and the Christ
Ch. 15-16 bowls
Ch. 17-19 last days events
Ch. 20-22 the end
As you can see, Chapters 17, 18, and 19 link to Chapters 4, 5, and 6. Therefore, it is reasonable that Chapters 4, 5, and 6 follow a similar format to that of Chapters 17, 18, and 19 as follows:
1) Babylon falls (Chapter 17) relates to Chapter 4
2) Saints are enraptured (Chapter 18) relates to Chapter 5
3) The marriage (vv. 19:1-10) relates to Verses 6:1-8
4) Armageddon (vv. 19:11-21) relates to Verses 6:9-17
So the question in my mind is what about the fall of Babylon in Chapter 17 relates to the resurrection in Chapter 4, and it is obviously "fall" and "rise" (as in "come up hither" v. 4:1)
Next, what about the rapture in Chapter 18 relates to Chapter 5. Both Chapters 18 and 5 follow their leading Chapters 17 and 4. Since 17 was "fall" and 4 was "rise,"and 18 is "rise" per the rapture, then 5 should be "fall," and there it is. Chapter 5 is about the "fall" of Christ for the redemption of our souls. Better stated, Chapter 5 is about the Savior going below all things to save mankind from sin.
Okay, so the theme of fall vs. rise should continue in Chapters 19 and 6 as follows: the "rise" of the saints at the marriage and the "fall" of the beast at Armageddon relates to the fall of the world to the beast and the "rise" of the saints against the beast.
Now lets place these in their proper order as follows:
Chapters 17 and 4 are the fall of Babylon relates to the resurrection (rise) of the dead
Chapters 18 and 5 are the rise of the saints in the rapture relates to Christ going below all things (fall) to pay for sin (this is the 17-19 and 4-6 chiasmus centers)
Chapters 19 and 6 are the rise of the saints in the marriage and the fall of the beast at Armageddon relates to the fall of the world to the beast and the rise of the saints against the beast
Now plug this into the BoR chiasmus as follows:
Ch.1-3 message to the churches
Ch 4, the rise (resurrection) of the dead
Ch 5, the fall of Christ below all things to pay for sin (Ch. 4-6 chiasmus center)
Ch 6, the fall of the world to the beast, and the rise of the saints against the beast
Ch. 6-8 last days events
Ch. 8-11 trumpets
Ch. 12 the emphasis of the book, the woman and the dragon, the chapter 12 sign (BoR chiasmus center)
Ch. 13-14 the beast and the Christ
Ch. 15-16 bowls
Ch 17, the fall of Babylon
Ch 18, the rise of the Saints in the rapture (Ch. 17-19 chiasmus center)
Ch 19, the rise of the saints in the marriage to Christ and the fall of the beast at Armageddon
Ch. 20-22 the end
And there it is, six chapters in the BoR chiasmus being expanded upon. I would like to thank Venge, Rondon, and others for helping me find several important connections in the above analysis.
Side Note: When reading the BoR as a whole book, or when relating the chapters of the first half (1-11) to the chapters of the second half (12-22), or when assembling the chapters together in a reasonably understandable fashion, then the chapters at times appear or may in fact be parenthetical.
However, if the BoR is read as it is designed (in my opinion) according to the BoR chiasmus, then the chapters are cohesively assembled and nothing is parenthetical.
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Post by boraddict on Nov 24, 2018 14:18:58 GMT -6
From my previous posting there remains the center of the BoR chiasmus to be expanded and it looks as follows: Ch. 6-8 last days events Ch. 8-11 trumpets Ch. 12 the emphasis of the book, the woman and the dragon, the chapter 12 sign (BoR chiasmus center) Ch. 13-14 the beast and the Christ Ch. 15-16 bowls This is tough and I do not see the connecting link from Ch. 6 to Ch. 15; however, the bowls and trumpets do link and for that reason I am rewriting the chiasmus as follows: Ch. 6-11 Ch. 12 Ch. 13-16 And from here the chapters link as follows: Chapter 13 is the rise of the beast as is Chapter 6 Chapter 14 is Christ and his 144,000 as is Chapter 7 Chapter 15 is the resurrection / temple and Chapter 8 is the 7th seal / transformation of the earth. Chapters 15 and 8 are a good solid link because of the corresponding divisions at Verses 15:4 to 5 and 8:5: to 6. Chapter 16 is the bowls and Chapters 9-11 the three woes The above conclusions cause the chiasmus for the BoR to look as follows: Ch.1-3, message to the churches Ch 4, the rise (resurrection) of the dead Ch 5, the fall of Christ below all things to pay for sin (Ch. 4-6 chiasmus center) Ch 6, the fall of the world to the beast, and the rise of the saints against the beast Ch. 6, the beast rises Ch. 7, 144,000 Ch. 8, seventh seal / hurt upon the earth Ch. 9-11, three woes Ch. 12, the emphasis of the book, the woman and the dragon, the chapter 12 sign (BoR chiasmus center) Ch. 13, the beast rises Ch. 14, 144,000 with Christ Ch. 15, resurrection / temple Ch. 16, seven bowls Ch 17, the fall of Babylon Ch 18, the rise of the Saints in the rapture (Ch. 17-19 chiasmus center) Ch 19, the rise of the saints in the marriage to Christ and the fall of the beast at Armageddon Ch. 20-22 the end I realize that Chapters 9-11 do not appear to link exclusively to Chapter 16; however, the congruent applications of Chapters 4 through 8 and Chapters 19 through 15 support that Chapters 9-11 links exclusively to Chapter 16. Thus, the bilateral chiasmi are: Ch.1-3, message to the churches Ch 4, the rise (resurrection) of the dead Ch 5, the fall of Christ below all things to pay for sin (Ch. 4-6 chiasmus center) Ch 6, the fall of the world to the beast, and the rise of the saints against the beast Ch. 6, the beast rises (chiasmus center of the descending leg of the BoR chiasmus) Ch. 7, 144,000 Ch. 8, seventh seal / hurt upon the earth Ch. 9-11, three woes Ch. 12, the emphasis of the book, the woman and the dragon, the chapter 12 sign (BoR chiasmus center) Ch. 13, the beast rises Ch. 14, 144,000 with Christ Ch. 15, resurrection / temple Ch. 16, seven bowls (chiasmus center of the ascending leg of he BoR chiasmus) Ch 17, the fall of Babylon Ch 18, the rise of the Saints in the rapture (Ch. 17-19 chiasmus center) Ch 19, the rise of the saints in the marriage to Christ and the fall of the beast at Armageddon Ch. 20-22 the end And this really surprises me because I expected Chapter 17 to be the center of the ascending leg (vv. 22-12). It just goes to show that the BoR chiasmus has nothing to do with the application of the four visions beginning at Verses 1:10, 4:1, 17:1, and 21:9. Prior to this I was absolutely convinced Chapter 17 was the chiasmus center for the ascending leg because it was the beginning of the third vision. Not only that but I was able to show how it all fit together. That is, until I accepted that the BoR is chronological in sections. Consequently, I must go where the evidence leads. Okay, now I am bringing forward the chronological sections of the BoR from a previous posting on this thread to see it these sections fit the above BoR chiasmus. "The groups of chronological chapters are as follows: 1-3, messages to the churches both past and present 4-6, the resurrection.
6-8, the seven seals. Chapter 8 is an error in this group and noted in the BoR chiasmus.
8-11, the seven trumpets.
The Book Center (this is not the chiasmus center) 12, the woman and the dragon
13-14, The beast and the Christ
15-16, The seven bowls
17-19, the fall of Babylon
20-22 the end" Read more: board.unsealed.org/thread/1717/chronological-order-book-revelation#ixzz5Xp2sAaDeCh.1-3, message to the churches Ch 4, the rise (resurrection) of the dead
Ch 5, the fall of Christ below all things to pay for sin (Ch. 4-6 chiasmus center)
Ch 6, the fall of the world to the beast, and the rise of the saints against the beast
Ch. 6, the beast rises (chiasmus center of the descending leg of the BoR chiasmus)
Ch. 7, 144,000
Ch. 8, seventh seal / hurt upon the earth
Ch. 9-11, three woes
Ch. 12, the emphasis of the book, the woman and the dragon, the chapter 12 sign (BoR chiasmus center)
Ch. 13, the beast rises
Ch. 14, 144,000 with Christ Ch. 15, resurrection / temple
Ch. 16, seven bowls (chiasmus center of the ascending leg of he BoR chiasmus) Ch 17, the fall of Babylon
Ch 18, the rise of the Saints in the rapture (Ch. 17-19 chiasmus center)
Ch 19, the rise of the saints in the marriage to Christ and the fall of the beast at Armageddon
Ch. 20-22 the end And there it is. The BoR chiasmus and the groups of chronological chapters are in harmony (above) as noted in the following model: a b
c
d e
f g
h i h/e
g/f f/g
e/h d/b
c
b/da Thus, a links to a b (b, c, d) links to b (b, c, d) and c (e, f, g, h), links to c (e, f, g, h) It simply means that the BoR chiasmus compresses into the following prime chiasmus of the form A/B, A/B and this causes the linking of the individual sections (above) to be a/b, b/a. A, Ch. 1-3 B, Ch. 4-6 C, Ch. 6-11 D, Ch. 12 C, Ch. 13-16 B, Ch. 17-19 A, Ch. 20-22 If I was able to draw on this screen then I could give a better example. But is ends up looking like this: Ch. 1-3 links to Ch. 20-22 Ch. 4 links to 17 (explained in the previous posting on this thread) 5 to 18 (explained in the previous posting on this thread) 6 to 19 (explained in the previous posting on this thread) 6 to 13 7 to 14 8 to 15 9-11 to 16 and then 12 sits on it own with no linking chapter |
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Post by boraddict on Nov 25, 2018 10:38:21 GMT -6
I wish there was some outstanding benefit to understanding the structure of the BoR. I mean, it does not reveal hidden secrets or any new knowledge about the return of the Savior. It simply aids in understanding how the book was put together. So in the end the organizational structure of the BoR is simply groups of chronological chapters placed in harmonious associations as follows:
Ch 1-3
Ch 4-5 (Chapter 6 has been removed from this group because is does not follow Chapter 5 chronologically)
Ch. 6-7
Ch. 8-11
Ch. 12
Ch. 13-14
Ch. 15-16
Ch 17-19
Ch. 20-22
This chiasmus as well as the chiasmi on this thread having the base assumption of chronology superseded any and all of my former BoR chiasmi dating back to 2008 when I first began working with chasmi. Again, I would like to thank Venge, Rondonmonson, and others for helping me to see and understand critical points in the overall analysis. The final nail in the coffin supporting chronology as the base was "Chapter 6 as the rise of the beast" by Rondonmonson. Thank you Rondon.
Post Script: Enough can not be said about Chapter 6. It shows in addition to 1) the rise of the beast that links to Chapter 13,
2) the resurrection of the dead that links to from Chapters 4 and 5,
3) the rise and fall of the beast as linked to Chapter 19,
4) the chronological association to Chapter 7,
5) the "testimony of Jesus" as linked to the six seal representations of the prophets,
and so much more.
I guess Chapter 6 is the crowning accomplishment and testament of authenticity for the BoR (in my opinion) because it repeatedly proves itself as prophetic scripture to the believer and non-believer alike.
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Post by socalexile on Nov 26, 2018 10:22:16 GMT -6
What the chiasmus shows is the separation of the wheat and chaff, those who believe in Christ and those who do not.
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Post by boraddict on Nov 26, 2018 19:40:39 GMT -6
What the chiasmus shows is the separation of the wheat and chaff, those who believe in Christ and those who do not. Good observation. It clearly does that and arriving at Chapter 12 as the capstone. |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Nov 26, 2018 19:59:30 GMT -6
Hi boraddict! me, a fellow brethren, not a mod... we can always count on your organization skills with the BOR! I have been lurking here just not commenting for you have a passion here that the Lord is using for us all. I am silent and listening. |
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Post by boraddict on Nov 27, 2018 0:53:18 GMT -6
Hi boraddict ! me, a fellow brethren, not a mod... we can always count on your organization skills with the BOR! I have been lurking here just not commenting for you have a passion here that the Lord is using for us all. I am silent and listening. Barb, thank you for your kind words. I went back to read some of my postings on this thread and could not make it all the way through them. It took to much for me to follow what I was saying, so I can imagine what it is like for others. Sometimes I do that kind of thing with others postings as well. I start reading and my mind is not into it, so I have to stop. Then at other times I sit down and the postings just click and I am "in" with the writer; in the zone. I remember when I first started working on the BoR it made no sense to me. I was working on each chapter individually and found Chapter 14 to be a summary chapter. And now, after several years into it then I wonder how it can be made easier for others who do not have such an interest, and that is my drive for building chiasmi. I just try to explain the mechanics of the verse or chapter and if I am correct then others might follow a path to a greater understanding. I remember a couple of Mormons that stopped by (years ago). I listened to their spill and they had to listen to mine. I gave them some of my work that is now far outdated. I liked doing the same with the Jehovah Witnesses. I loved seeing them each week and then after a long period of time they said it was time for me to join their church and it was then that they learned that I would never join their church. I miss them coming to see my chiasmus work. Sometimes four at a time as an audience and they would leave their pamphlets and I would try to send print offs of the chiasmi. It was so much fun. Ch 1-3 Ch 4-6, rise of the dead, the sacrifice of Christ, the rise of the beast / Armageddon Ch. 6-7, the beast & Armageddon vs the Christ & the temple forever Ch. 8-11, rise of the beast / the beast and his army, the two witnesses / Armageddon Ch. 12 Ch. 13-14, the beast, false prophet & his army vs the Christ, his angels & his 144,000 / Armageddon
Ch. 15-16, rise of the dead / Christ and his angels, followers of the beast / Armageddon Ch 17-19, fall of Babylon, the rapture of the church, the marriage of the church / ArmageddonCh. 20-22 Read more: board.unsealed.org/thread/1717/chronological-order-book-revelation?page=3#ixzz5Y3uhtbRx |
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Nov 27, 2018 13:18:14 GMT -6
YW....I was born in Tuscaloosa, so I try t get back for some Alabama games every year, so I was gone Sat. in Church of course Sun. so I haven't been ignoring you my friend. I just been busy. Boraddict I think the smoke is AS the Smoke of a great furnace on earth in the way it billows out, I think the smoke is real as in it makes the earth dark, it's just the 5th Trumpet (1st Woe) being sounded. I do think the 200 million are Angelic beings, not humans, and they do bring plagues like verse 20 says. But remember, the 1st Woe is the demonic hordes (Locusts) whereas the 2nd Woe is the Angelic army of God. I see the 144,000 as a Metaphor for the fleeing children of Israel, notice in Rev. 7 they need "PROTECTION" from God's plagues, thus they are men. I think you meant Rev. 16:12 not 16:2, so I figured that out. I think the Kings of the East means Iran and Iraq, that is why it speaks of the Euphrates river. I haven't thought of this as China in a few years. The 200 million Horsemen were never a human Army, and its in the 2nd Woe not the 3rd Woe. So I applied common sense and understood the Euphrates reference was meant to show that Iran, Iraq and maybe other nations in that region join the fight, along all the nations of the world. All the Kings of the world are mentioned so why single out the Kings of the East? Because they represent 2 of the Beasts, its Metaphoric in nature because Iraq and Iran are not powers, but the writer wants us to understand what is happening, this has been going on since Babylon and Persia ruled, its the same old thing, man wants to rule himself and hates God, thus we are given these nations of the Euphrates River Basin. We know the E.U has Rome and Greece in their coalition. So this is just God telling us in a manner that lets us know, this is the World in general, against God in a collective manner. |
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Nov 27, 2018 15:26:47 GMT -6
In my previous posting I explained the chronological connection between Chapters 17, 18, and 19 as follows: 1) Babylon falls (Chapter 17) 2) Saints are enraptured (Chapter 18) 3) The marriage (vv. 19:1-10) 4) Armageddon (vv. 19:11-21 And in my first posting on this thread was the chiasmus for the BoR as follows: Ch.1-3 message to the churches Ch. 4-6 resurrection Ch. 6-8 last days events Ch. 8-11 trumpets Ch. 12 the emphasis of the book, the woman and the dragon, the chapter 12 sign Ch. 13-14 the beast and the Christ Ch. 15-16 bowls Ch. 17-19 last days events Ch. 20-22 the end As you can see, Chapters 17, 18, and 19 link to Chapters 4, 5, and 6. Therefore, it is reasonable that Chapters 4, 5, and 6 follow a similar format to that of Chapters 17, 18, and 19 as follows: 1) Babylon falls (Chapter 17) relates to Chapter 4 2) Saints are enraptured (Chapter 18) relates to Chapter 5 3) The marriage (vv. 19:1-10) relates to Verses 6:1-8 4) Armageddon (vv. 19:11-21) relates to Verses 6:9-17 So the question in my mind is what about the fall of Babylon in Chapter 17 relates to the resurrection in Chapter 4, and it is obviously "fall" and "rise" (as in "come up hither" v. 4:1) Next, what about the rapture in Chapter 18 relates to Chapter 5. Both Chapters 18 and 5 follow their leading Chapters 17 and 4. Since 17 was "fall" and 4 was "rise,"and 18 is "rise" per the rapture, then 5 should be "fall," and there it is. Chapter 5 is about the "fall" of Christ for the redemption of our souls. Better stated, Chapter 5 is about the Savior going below all things to save mankind from sin. Okay, so the theme of fall vs. rise should continue in Chapters 19 and 6 as follows: the "rise" of the saints at the marriage and the "fall" of the beast at Armageddon relates to the fall of the world to the beast and the "rise" of the saints against the beast. Now lets place these in their proper order as follows: Chapters 17 and 4 are the fall of Babylon relates to the resurrection ( rise) of the dead Chapters 18 and 5 are the rise of the saints in the rapture relates to Christ going below all things ( fall) to pay for sin (this is the 17-19 and 4-6 chiasmus centers) Chapters 19 and 6 are the rise of the saints in the marriage and the fall of the beast at Armageddon relates to the fall of the world to the beast and the rise of the saints against the beast Now plug this into the BoR chiasmus as follows: Ch.1-3 message to the churches Ch 4, the rise (resurrection) of the dead
Ch 5, the fall of Christ below all things to pay for sin (Ch. 4-6 chiasmus center)
Ch 6, the fall of the world to the beast, and the rise of the saints against the beast Ch. 6-8 last days events Ch. 8-11 trumpets Ch. 12 the emphasis of the book, the woman and the dragon, the chapter 12 sign (BoR chiasmus center) Ch. 13-14 the beast and the Christ Ch. 15-16 bowls Ch 17, the fall of Babylon
Ch 18, the rise of the Saints in the rapture (Ch. 17-19 chiasmus center)
Ch 19, the rise of the saints in the marriage to Christ and the fall of the beast at ArmageddonCh. 20-22 the end And there it is, six chapters in the BoR chiasmus being expanded upon. I would like to thank Venge, Rondon, and others for helping me find several important connections in the above analysis. Side Note: When reading the BoR as a whole book, or when relating the chapters of the first half (1-11) to the chapters of the second half (12-22), or when assembling the chapters together in a reasonably understandable fashion, then the chapters at times appear or may in fact be parenthetical. However, if the BoR is read as it is designed (in my opinion) according to the BoR chiasmus, then the chapters are cohesively assembled and nothing is parenthetical. Let my try to do this post in more simplistic and methodical fashion where people can follow it, see it for what it is and agree or disagree. As a preacher I tend to bloviate to much at times even when chatting it seems. Revelation chapters 1, 2 and 3 are the Church age, then in Rev. 4:1 John is Raptured to Heaven, so the Church is Raptured at that same point in time. Rapture==========1==========2==========3===== 3.5=====4==========5==========6==========7 (Seven Year End Time Period) Revel. 4 ^ John is Raptured as is the Church in Rev. 4:1 ^ The Church/Bride is seen in the Throne Room (Rev. 4:4 in White) just before the Middle of the week (3.5 year mark)Revel. 5 ^ The Multitude (Bride) is seen as the Redeemed in Heaven in Rev. 5:9 just before the Seals are opened at the 3.5 mark. Revel. 6 ^ 1st Seal opened (Anti-Christ) 2nd, 3rd and 4th Seal (A.C.) 5th Seal (Martyrs) 6th Seal (Celestial events) Revel. 7 ^ 144,000 (Jews protected) and Rev. 7:9-17 is the Bride in Heaven in White robes. Revel. 8 ^ First Four Trumpets are Sounded, Trees burn, grasses burn, seas turn to blood etc. etc. Revel. 9 ^ 1st Woe lasts 5 months, 2nd Woe slays 1.5 Billion people. Revel. 10 If the chapters are out of order as I assume, and Rev. chapters 15 and 16 should come right after Rev. 9 (Judgments in order) then Rev. 10 might be saying TIME IS NO MORE. Rapture==========1==========2==========3===== 3.5=====4==========5==========6==========7 (Seven Year End Time Period) Revel. 11 Two-witnesses show up BEFORE the Day of the Lord ^ (3.5 year mark). The Two-witnesses then die at the 2nd Woe ^ just before the Beast dies, so they Minister for 1260 days. Revel. 12 Red Dragon chases the Woman (Israel) ^ Of course this starts when the 1st Seal is opened (3.5 year mark) and God then protects Israel for 1260 days. Revel. 13 ^ The Beast is the Anti-Christ Conquering so he comes forth at the 3.5 year mark also. Revel. 14 ^ Is about ALL THREE HARVESTS, it of course starts with the Rapture, then speaks of the Gathering of the 144,000 Jews. ^ Wicked defeated at Armageddon. (Runs 7 years) Revel. 15 ^ 7 Vials being readied by the Angels Revel. 16 ^ 7 Vials being poured out. Revel. 17 ^ The Harlot is Killed off early in chapter 6 IMHO. Revel. 18 ^ The Seals,Trumpets and Vials run for 7 years until the Beast^ is killed at Vial #7. Revel. 19 ^This chapter runs for a 7 full years, the Church is taken to Heaven, marries the Lamb, thus she is seen in chapters 4, 5 and 7 in White, Redeemed and as a Multitude. (Bride) Rapture==========1==========2==========3===== 3.5=====4==========5==========6==========7 (Seven Year End Time Period) Of course Revelation chapters 20, 21 and 22 are happening after the seven year period with the possible exception of a couple of verses in chapter 20. I have no Idea how this CRUDE TIMELINE is going to turn out, I might have to edit it later. Gotta run to the store for the Wifey. |
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Post by boraddict on Nov 27, 2018 21:19:01 GMT -6
Thank you Rondon. The BoR is clearly the book that keeps on giving. Do you remember the chess board that Mr. Spock (Leonard Nimoy) played on in the Star Trek movies. It had three levels and if you looked straight down on the board then you could see the entire board. However, the player (Spock) had to view the three levels (three boards) from the side making the moves extremely difficult. In my view, the BoR is like that chess board and the only one viewing it from above is God. We have to look at the three boards from four sides and I have no idea what the permutation of that is, but it is a lot. Take a look as the following items and determine if you agree or disagree:
1) Chapter 10 flows into Chapter 11.
2) Lets say that the dividing line between Chapters 10 and 11 is removed then the story begins with this mighty angel (v. 10:1) with whom John is to interact (v. 10:8) and their interaction continues from Verse 10:9 through 11:2.
3) This interaction between the angel of Chapter 10:1 and John in Verses 10:9-11:2 is summarized in Verse 1:1.
4) The Savior is the Great Voice as of a trumpet in Verse 1:10.
5) The Savior is the first voice which John heard as it were of a trumpet (v. 4:1).
6) In Verse 4:1 this voice as it were of a trumpet talked with John and said come up hither.
7) In Verse 4:1 this voice talked to John from heaven.
8) This voice from heaven in Verse 4:1 is Lord Jesus.
9) Lord Jesus as the voice from heaven spoke to John again at Verse 10:8.
10) John and the angel interact from Verse 10:9 through 11:2.
11) After the angel and John interact, Lord Jesus speaks again in Verse 11:3 about his two witnesses.
12) The angel and John are witnesses of Christ.
13) They are two witness of Christ.
14) The two witnesses of Christ in Chapter 11 are the angel and John.
I realize that qualifiers are placed upon these two witnesses like they will be killed and an angel can not die. However, with God anything is possible.
Consider Verses 10:8 through 11:3 in chiasmus form as follows:
10:8, Lord Jesus speaks
10:9, John asks for the little book and the angel tells him to eat it up
10:10, John takes the little book from the angel's hand and eats it up
10:11, the angel tells John that he must prophecy again
11:1, the angel tells John to rise and measure the temple
11:2, the angel tells John to leave out the court without the temple for it is given unto the gentiles and the holy city will be tread under foot forty two months
11:3, Lord Jesus speaks
The central position of the chiasmus is that John must prophecy again. There is a reference to his first prophecy in Verse 1:2 that began with the word of God, ends with the testimony of Jesus, and includes all things that he saw between the beginning and ending. This first prophecy is the Gospel according to John. This means that John's second prophecy as a book is the BoR. However, the implications of Verse 10:11 go further than that of a book. John in fact did prophesy to the people of his time face to face. So likewise, he is being told that he must prophecy face to face again to the people of the holy city during the time that he is measuring the temple. That is, during the time that the temple is under construction. While the gentiles are treading the holy city under foot for 42 months. This is reaffirmed in Verse 11:3 in which Lord Jesus states that not only John but the angel as well will prophesy 1,260 days as his two witnesses. Therefore, when John takes the little book from the angel's hand it signifies that he has agreed to follow the angel's instructions to prophecy not only in a book, but also in Jerusalem for 42 months that is 1,260 days.
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Post by socalexile on Nov 28, 2018 10:46:37 GMT -6
What the chiasmus shows is the separation of the wheat and chaff, those who believe in Christ and those who do not. Good observation. It clearly does that and arriving at Chapter 12 as the capstone. When you read a Chiasm, the central thought is like the first sentence in a modern paragraph, and the supporting thoughts branch outwards. |
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Post by socalexile on Nov 28, 2018 10:55:48 GMT -6
BTW I did some math a while back and considered another possibility with the Woman of Revelation 12. The Woman is counted as being in the wilderness 2,520 days in Rev. 12 - coincidentally the same amount of time that is between the command of Cyrus to rebuild the Temple and the return of Israel in 1947-8. If you split the difference and subtract 1260 from the Jewish year in 1948 (5708 by the Jewish Calendar) you end up at 688AD, or 4448 by the Jewish Calendar, which is about the time they started constructing the Dome of the Rock: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dome_of_the_RockRemember that Satan is cast out of Heaven in the middle of the time that the Woman is in the wilderness. Coincidence? |
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Post by boraddict on Nov 28, 2018 21:04:06 GMT -6
BTW I did some math a while back and considered another possibility with the Woman of Revelation 12. The Woman is counted as being in the wilderness 2,520 days in Rev. 12 - coincidentally the same amount of time that is between the command of Cyrus to rebuild the Temple and the return of Israel in 1947-8. If you split the difference and subtract 1260 from the Jewish year in 1948 (5708 by the Jewish Calendar) you end up at 688AD, or 4448 by the Jewish Calendar, which is about the time they started constructing the Dome of the Rock: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dome_of_the_RockRemember that Satan is cast out of Heaven in the middle of the time that the Woman is in the wilderness. Coincidence? Okay, vv. 12:1-6 vv. 12:7-13, Satan is cast out of Heaven (688 AD). Thus, he resides in his Dome of the Rock temple. His throne is a rock! vv. 12:14-17 |
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Post by boraddict on Nov 29, 2018 6:06:42 GMT -6
I wanted to show some interesting details about the BoR chiasmus that I have already covered but would like to go over again. The chronological groups are a follows:
Ch. 1-3
Ch 4-6
Ch. 6-7
Ch. 8-11
Ch. 12
Ch. 13-14
Ch. 15-16
Ch 17-19
Ch. 20-22
And the congruence of the chapters provides the "prime chiasmus" as follows:
Ch. 1-3
Ch 4-6
Ch. 6-11 (Ch 6-7, 8-11)
Ch. 12
Ch. 13-16 (Ch 13-14, 15-16)
Ch 17-19
Ch. 20-22
Notice that Chapters 6-11 and 13-16 have two distinct parts that are Chapters 6-7, 8-11, and 13-14, 15-16. Lets call these parts A and B as follows:
Ch. 1-3
Ch 4-6
Parts A and B
Ch. 12
Parts A and B
Ch 17-19
Ch. 20-22
Part A connects to Part A, and Part B connects to Part B in the chiasmus of the BoR as follows:
Ch. 1-3
Ch 4-6
Part A (Ch 6-7)
Part B (Ch 8-11)
Ch. 12
Part A (Ch 13-14)
Part B (Ch 15-16)
Ch 17-19
Ch. 20-22
So lets look at the B to B (B/B) relationship. This breaks down into two sections as follows:
Ch 8 (a)
Ch 9-11 (b)
Ch 15 (a)
Ch 16 (b)
Thus, Chapters 8-11 and 15-16 each have a/b relationships. Lastly, both Chapters 8 and 15 have c/d relationships. So now lets rebuild as follows:
Ch 8 (c/d)
Ch 15 (c/d)
Then:
Ch 8 (a), (c/d)
Ch 9-11 (b)
Ch 12
Ch 15 (a), (c/d)
Ch 16 (b)
Then:
Ch. 6-7 (A)
Ch 8 (B), (a), (c/d), - Ch 9-11 (b)
Ch 12
Ch. 13-14 (A)
Ch 15 (B), (a), (c/d), - Ch 16 (b)
As you can see, there are multiple ways to read these Chapters. For instance, Chapter 15 can be read as a chapter following Chapter 14 in an A/B (Ch 14/Ch 15) relationship, or Chapter 15 can be read preceding Chapter 16 in an a/b (Ch 15/Ch 16) chronological relationship, or Chapter 8 can be harmonized with Chapter 15 in its two parts c/d (vv 8:1-5, 15:1-4/vv 8:6-13, 15:5-8) relationship. Secondly, each of these three ways of reading Chapter 15 corresponds directly to Chapter 8 meaning that the reading of Chapter 8 mirrors the reading of Chapter 15. This does not mean that the verses match up perfectly with these two chapters, but that they have congruent relationships.
Since Chapter 8 is a seventh seal Chapter as stated in Verse 8:1, and since Verses 8:1-5 are sister verses to Verses 15:1-4, then Chapter 15 is a seventh seal Chapter.
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The following is the order of my favorites:
