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Post by mike on Dec 11, 2018 13:45:52 GMT -6
Ron (can I call you that? Every time I type in your name to tag you I spell it wrong) I have heard/watched the moon theories and from what I've reviewed all of the former theories about how the moon came to be are being or have been abandoned. There is another theory out that I buy into as it can be proven through analysis of physics, math, composition etc. The moon was delivered here from further out...I will link the article but it is lengthy and may cause you to rethink your position  As to the other theories (the one you cite where there was a collision)... I'll do a search for that too but as I recall mathematically it's not possible, nor was a flyby, neither is the cosmic dust theory. Also in your above you ask why God would change the laws of nature ... I don't think he did or has to. Again I'm not trying to argue with a brother, just trying to better understand your position. Doing that in short sentences without body language is sometimes hard to do. Especially for a guy who likes to smile and talk with his hands a lot! You mentioned that God didn't put oil in the ground or fossils to trick us. I agree. The oil is from decomposed plant matter, and many fossils posed to be very old were laid down during the flood. Cataclysm being the responsible party for these things, not length of time. As you said we can agree to disagree but I am curious as to your statement of the Bible being written incorrectly. You've said it a couple times and I didn't see that you replied specifically. If the word used for days, was not written correctly what else in scripture is wrong? EDIT - add link to thread where articles on catastrophe |
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Dec 11, 2018 15:15:19 GMT -6
Ron (can I call you that? Every time I type in your name to tag you I spell it wrong) I have heard/watched the moon theories and from what I've reviewed all of the former theories about how the moon came to be are being or have been abandoned. There is another theory out that I buy into as it can be proven through analysis of physics, math, composition etc. The moon was delivered here from further out...I will link the article but it is lengthy and may cause you to rethink your position As to the other theories (the one you cite where there was a collision)... I'll do a search for that too but as I recall mathematically it's not possible, nor was a flyby, neither is the cosmic dust theory. Also in your above you ask why God would change the laws of nature ... I don't think he did or has to. Again I'm not trying to argue with a brother, just trying to better understand your position. Doing that in short sentences without body language is sometimes hard to do. Especially for a guy who likes to smile and talk with his hands a lot! You mentioned that God didn't put oil in the ground or fossils to trick us. I agree. The oil is from decomposed plant matter, and many fossils posed to be very old were laid down during the flood. Cataclysm being the responsible party for these things, not length of time. As you said we can agree to disagree but I am curious as to your statement of the Bible being written incorrectly. You've said it a couple times and I didn't see that you replied specifically. If the word used for days, was not written correctly what else in scripture is wrong? EDIT - add link to thread where articles on catastrophe Yea, that is my name (Ronald) so no problem, but I like putting in names that I can remember without putting in my name, like Revelation Man etc. I say if there are different ways a word is used that we have to place it in proper context........FOR INSTANCE...... Say Jesus came to you tonight and said the Universe is 13.7 Billion years old Mike and that is all he told you in a dream or vision, so you have that understanding 100 percent, and you now know the universe is 13.7 billion years old as a 100 percent factoid.............doesn't that mean Genesis chapter 1 is wrong ? No, it means we stated it was a Day when the earth wasn't even around for the first 9.2 billion years so we just assumed God used the word YOWM to mean DAY when it also can mean TO BE HOT.........A PERIOD OF TIME, etc. etc. etc. So the word isn't incorrect, it is our understanding of it that would then be incorrect. God can't be incorrect. IMHO, It means YOWM was used by God to describe a period if time, a beginning and ending, evening and morning meaning a beginning and ending of something in a general sense. The Darkness was on the Face of the Deep first, then God said let there be light. That is what the WMAP Map shows, by the way, it's microwave background, so just like a radars picture is true, it's just painting a picture of things that were or are there. So it was written just as God intended. We chose to use day as per an earth day. I don't think it means an earth day, others do, but most Christians I think see the Universe as an old Universe, but not all, so that is why we are a diverse peoples, if we were all the same the world would be boring brother, God Bless. |
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Post by Gary on Dec 11, 2018 16:42:54 GMT -6
This is an interesting article, I've seen dozens of things like this. It's pretty fascinating to consider: www.icr.org/article/did-medieval-artists-see-real-dinosaurs/Just a heads up everyone, I think this is a really great and important topic to discuss, but our rules (specifically Rule #1) prevent arguments against a literal/historical-grammatical interpretation of Genesis 1-11. I hope that's understandable - we only have three rules and beyond those three there is lots of room to discuss and disagree, but we have those three for a reason. That said - anything can be discussed via PM. If anyone has any questions please feel free to PM me or a mod. Blessings! |
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Dec 11, 2018 22:27:21 GMT -6
This is an interesting article, I've seen dozens of things like this. It's pretty fascinating to consider: www.icr.org/article/did-medieval-artists-see-real-dinosaurs/Just a heads up everyone, I think this is a really great and important topic to discuss, but our rules (specifically Rule #1) prevent arguments against a literal/historical-grammatical interpretation of Genesis 1-11. I hope that's understandable - we only have three rules and beyond those three there is lots of room to discuss and disagree, but we have those three for a reason. That said - anything can be discussed via PM. If anyone has any questions please feel free to PM me or a mod. Blessings! What does literal mean brother ? I have been preaching 30 years and though I use the KJV it has mistakes as per interpretations, they translated it from Hebrew and Greek of course. I can show you the meaning of YOWM means "TO BE HOT" not day, so what does it even mean ? I mean I can move on, but why demand that the word day is correct ? The Universe is 13.7 billion years old so since I can't say what YOWM actually means there is no use in even debating the issue right ? I mean if its day then the universe must be 6000 years old. Most Christians I meet believe the universe is 13.7 billion years old. When we use the original Hebrew meaning we are much closer to the truth. Nevertheless I will move on, I can't argue a 13.7 billion year POV if I am mandated to say that Day means Day. |
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Post by mike on Dec 12, 2018 7:17:00 GMT -6
Ron - Our dialogue has been going very well here and we are certainly discussing something that is not settled among Christians. I am partly to 'blame' for this as I was not considering rule 1 when I began this thread. In no way was this intended to spark a debate over science and the bible. I believe that science confirms the bible and I think you do as well, we just see it differently. Not having the ability to scientifically test either theory none of us can be certain that the theories are accurate, so we go back to the Word and trust that it is accurate and believe that our science can support the biblical account.
I think we have encroached on an area that the Admin of the site would rather we took offline, which I am willing to do. I do wish to hear how that over 2000 times in the bible the word for day (Yowm) doesnt mean one 24 hour day in all those cases...Emailing you now.
Mike
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Post by boraddict on Dec 12, 2018 7:33:47 GMT -6
A few years ago a friend told me that the pyramids were constructed before Noah's flood. I considered that possibility and wondered about the sediment and debris that would exist and that science would have long ago proved that theory. So, I, after carefully considering this proposal concluded that the pyramids were built as I had formerly believed and not according to his new theory.
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Post by mike on Dec 12, 2018 7:57:01 GMT -6
A few years ago a friend told me that the pyramids were constructed before Noah's flood. I considered that possibility and wondered about the sediment and debris that would exist and that science would have long ago proved that theory. So, I, after carefully considering this proposal concluded that the pyramids were built as I had formerly believed and not according to his new theory. Another interesting point in this same light. If the pyramids were built before the flood, how did they survive? There was soooooo much water flooding the earth at that time. I have heard this question from those who either dont believe the flood account or claim it to be a local event, but it is due to a lack of understanding. A recent article indicates "The deep Earth holds about the same amount of water as our oceans". SO the water that covered the earth was nearly equal to that which we see on the earth already? HMMMMM! That would make the surge hundreds if not thousands of feet high, nothing could withstand that force. Gen 7:10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth. 11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. 12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights. 19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that [were] under the whole heaven, were covered. 20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered. 24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.Not only did it rain for 40 days and 40 nights, but the fountains of the deep, the same oceans under the earth came up from the earth to cover the surface. This is a lot of water! Think back to Harvey and the amount of rain that was dumped on the Houston area, that was only a few days worth. |
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Post by sawdy on Dec 12, 2018 8:30:19 GMT -6
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Post by boraddict on Dec 12, 2018 8:41:58 GMT -6
Now that makes me laugh. |
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Post by Gary on Dec 12, 2018 11:40:05 GMT -6
To be clear, I don't want to shut down your conversation (if your reasoning for believing in an Old Earth can be taken to PM), I'm intervening because we only have three rules and that rule has been in place for a long time. Also, the conversation has been gracious and civil, for sure, so this isn't in any way an attempt to stomp or attack. Again, I simply want to uphold the few rules we have. You can believe what you want, but a literal/historical-grammatical interpretation of Gen. 1-11 is policy here and the reasons are myriad (e.g. plain sense of Gen. 1-2, no death before sin, no carnivorous activity before the creation of man and the Fall, the order of creation in Gen. 1-2 vs all uniformitarian models, Ex. 20:11, Jesus' apparent literal understanding of the historicity of Genesis - including: Adam and Even created at the beginning and the historicity of the Flood). Prima facie / plain sense; and not interpreting something for a non-plain/literal meaning without direct scriptural warrant. יוֹם is only one aspect of treating Gen. 1 literally, but even that is a hard one to get around. I'm not "demanding" that it mean "day", I'm trying my best to adhere to the plain sense of Scripture wherever that leads, irregardless of what secular (or biblical) scholars now think. You can take your pick on English translation and still see that yom is translated "day" in the vast majority of cases. On top of that, each of the days listed in Gen. 1 is coupled with two things that make a figurative interpretation even more difficult: 1. Evening and morning, and 2. The ordinal number. Taking the NASB for instance, yom is translated "day(s)" 1,750 times, "today" 172 times, and the generic "time" only 45 times. 9 times it is translated "age". From the scholarship I've seen, there is pretty clear consensus it means "day". Certainly "day" can also have a figurative meaning and it is definitely used figuratively in certain passages, but the same can be done in English. For instance: "In my day...", "Back in the day..." It's likely that yom had similar usage. Regarding 13.7 billion years, many Christians (and Christian scientists) disagree ( link). I for one have no problem whatsoever with God creating a universe with the appearance of age. Just as Adam and Eve had the appearance of age. Just as water-turned-to-wine had the appearance of age. Just as thousands of fish to feed the four and five thousands had the appearance of age. God is a miracle worker and creates marvelous things beyond what we humans can comprehend. Certainly God has created natural laws and order, but creation itself is a miracle. The way things operate now generally seem to follow natural laws, but neither you nor I stood on the newly formed land on Day #3 of creation to directly witness God's creative hand at work. The biggest thing we have to go on is the direct revelation of God given to us in His word. And His word is clear. That may be the circles you run in. I've seen U.S.-based surveys showing a nearly 50-50 split in the general population between a young earth (under 10,000 years) and an old earth. I imagine if you singled out evangelicals it would be much different. But there are certainly some old earth-oriented denominations (Church of the Nazarene, for instance). Either way, I'm not mandating you to say anything or to believe anything - I'm just saying on the Unsealed Discussion Board, the policy is a literal, historical-grammatical interpretation of Gen. 1-11, which means no debates against that. Blessings to you in love. -Gary |
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Post by kjs on Dec 14, 2018 12:51:49 GMT -6
A few years ago a friend told me that the pyramids were constructed before Noah's flood. I considered that possibility and wondered about the sediment and debris that would exist and that science would have long ago proved that theory. So, I, after carefully considering this proposal concluded that the pyramids were built as I had formerly believed and not according to his new theory. I am not expert (and I can offer no proof -- one way or another) --
However, most of those who claim the pyramids have to be AFTER the flood (because the sediment and debris that would exist....) -- seem to be forgetting something very clear
(all the pyramids in Egypt where covered completely with a white capstone -- and smoothed out) -- that is not the case any longer
All of them have suffered massive erosion (yes, many scientists claim that it is from wind blown sand) -- but could be water erosion as well.
For example the Sphinx (now that they have removed most of that debris around it -- have discovered water erosion on the body itself (as well as around the walls of)
The experts are stumped about that one.....
Not trying to prove one theory over another -- simply trying to show that there are many theories and we cannot prove any of them-- cause we were not there to see it.
===================== That is why this debate of old earth / young earth --- goes on and on -- cause without 100% proof people like to be skeptical.........
Even though people like me ...... say the Bible says this in very clear terms -- therefore I trust it is true -- even though I cannot explain it all......
Others, like to say it is simply myths and/or stories that got recorded wrong and should not be taken literally word for word.......
=============
MY take (and I have no wish to cause a FIGHT)
IF you cannot take the Bible Literally -- word for word -- then How do you know when you should take something as a story and when as something literal?
in the New Testament -- it states salvation is a gift of God -- because of what Jesus Accomplished -- For those who take the "just story" view -- how do you know the salvation as a gift part is not simply a "story" as well?
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Post by kjs on Jan 3, 2019 12:17:00 GMT -6
CAME across this article and decided to share it.........
Evolution constructed our bodies with the biological equivalent of duct tape and lumber scraps.
An unsound spine
An inflexible knee
A too-narrow pelvis
Exposed testicles
Crowded teeth
Meandering arteries
A backward retina
A misrouted nerve
A misplaced voice box
A klugey brain
====================
This Pro- Evolutionary article lays it on really thick – I especially got a good chuckle out of kneecap section which says … “The upshot is your knee only rotates in two directions: forward and back. “That’s why every major sport, except maybe rugby, makes it illegal to clip, or hit an opponent’s knee from the side.”
Apparently the author (a major sports fan) thinks having the knee replaced with a “with a ball and socket” joint would be better – at least for sports….
This article is a piece of Garbage (and I even hesitated in using that -- because even some garbage can be useful – the best thing about this article is one can get a chuckle out of it)
Read this article with caution – since – while the “claimed Flaws” are really outrageous and somewhat funny; it does point out things like “A too-narrow pelvis “ is painful – and people especially women; -- go yes – it is painful – why would God allow such pain. Which takes us back to the whole SIN issue – and part of the curse is a Painful birthing process!
Evolution is the mystical process – where as long as someone tacks on enough TIME – anything can sound plausible…… Yet, limit the timeframe -- and even geneticist admit that DNA suggest that Human-Kind has only been around 10 thousand years…..
Fact is someone got bored and decided that they could “Fix The Human Body”
BUT even the fixes – do nothing but maybe make pain-free births and good football players.
=================================================================
MY TAKE
Psalm 139:14 English Standard Version (ESV)
14 I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.
Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well.
I am fearfully and wonderfully made.
for the fearfully word -- think "stand in awe of"
For wonderfully word -- think "to be separated or distinct"
God has made me unique and I stand in awe of His Power..........
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Post by bowman on May 30, 2019 20:53:27 GMT -6
I'm an OEC.
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Post by kjs on May 31, 2019 15:24:27 GMT -6
Not to be a pain.... but would you like to clarify?
For example a simple Google Search returns the following:
The Observatory of Economic Complexity: {OEC}
Office of Emergency Communications {OEC}
OECconnection -- right part, right place, right time {OEC}
Old Ellicott City {OEC} -- in the Washington DC area -- this is a local Famous Small -- town -- because of it's Major Flooding issue
Outdoor Emergency Care {OEC}
======================================================================= That is just some of the first page of search results.........
If you do not wish to have people jumping to wrong conclusions ... it may be best if you clarify your meaning of being OEC........  |
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Post by davewatchman on May 31, 2019 15:48:56 GMT -6
Not to be a pain.... but would you like to clarify?
For example a simple Google Search returns the following:
The Observatory of Economic Complexity: {OEC}
Office of Emergency Communications {OEC}
OECconnection -- right part, right place, right time {OEC}
Old Ellicott City {OEC} -- in the Washington DC area -- this is a local Famous Small -- town -- because of it's Major Flooding issue
Outdoor Emergency Care {OEC}
======================================================================= That is just some of the first page of search results.........
If you do not wish to have people jumping to wrong conclusions ... it may be best if you clarify your meaning of being OEC........
Old Earth Creationism (OEC), is a variety of creationism which has existed for hundreds of years; it encompasses a wide range of beliefs. Like Young Earth Creationists, Old Earth Creationists hold that various aspects of living things were created by special supernatural intervention. Unlike Young Earth Creationists, however, Old Earth Creationists accept the scientific evidence for the age of the earth and the universe. ncse.com/library-resource/old-earth-creationism |
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