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Post by mike on Mar 6, 2018 8:24:05 GMT -6
This topic has been debated by theologians with far greater study than any of us may ever achieve.
I haven't seen any one causing strife, being combative, or picking fights. I think it's important to recognize that no one may have the right answer and for good reason. God will reveal all when He is ready to do so. Until then we try to understand as much as we can.
I simply hold both views loosely as both are possible yet neither critical to salvation 😉
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Post by kjs on Mar 6, 2018 8:38:28 GMT -6
Many, many of the comments on this thread seem to "read into" the overall text...... For example verse 26 reads -- after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one will be eliminated. No one will support him. That is the text ... Yes, everyone now knows that is Jesus and He was raised again ..... But as far as this text in Daniel goes --- we DO NOT KNOW that --- the TEXT does not say He was raised again. As far as the text goes -- he remains dead. Same goes with barbiosheepgirl comment "....But Christ is the THE Sacrifice after the 69th week. No more Sacrifice or grain offering....." YES, in HIND-sight we can see that clearly .... BUT based on the TEXT alone we do not have those connections being made..... People are "reading INTO the text" -- information that did not exist at the time the prophecy was given..... This is one reason, I believe there is so much confusion and debate -- we know much more of the story and it is somewhat easier to predict how it will turn out .... BUT that is reading into the existing text......... |
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Post by Natalie on Mar 6, 2018 8:42:20 GMT -6
I have a question...and maybe this isn't the right thread...but what about the sacrifices that will take place in the temple Ezekiel mentions? God directs them to consecrate the altar with sacrifices and make sacrifices for sin offerings. (chapter 43:18-27) Sacrifices are also mentioned in 45:17-25.
Concerning the temple, He says -- 43:7 And He said to me, "Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel forever..."
So, I understand there is no need for any more sacrifices, and I've heard an explanation for why there will be sacrifices in the Millennial Kingdom, it seems that they are not a complete abomination to Him. So, would sacrifices today be an abomination? Or simply unnecessary and unaccepted by Him?
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Mar 6, 2018 9:48:50 GMT -6
I understand, kjs I do. It is a vision being explained to Daniel that Daniel and those of the day would not fully understand. Yet they had Isaiah and all the metaphorical language there pointing the way to a Savior. Take example Isaiah 53:10-12 These messages coming prior to Daniel would have supported the decree based on the wording itself. There is no resurrection mentioned here, but a focus on iniquities and trnasgressions. 10But the LORD was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
11As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
12Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2018 12:06:02 GMT -6
I have a question...and maybe this isn't the right thread...but what about the sacrifices that will take place in the temple Ezekiel mentions? God directs them to consecrate the altar with sacrifices and make sacrifices for sin offerings. (chapter 43:18-27) Sacrifices are also mentioned in 45:17-25. Concerning the temple, He says -- 43:7 And He said to me, "Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel forever..." So, I understand there is no need for any more sacrifices, and I've heard an explanation for why there will be sacrifices in the Millennial Kingdom, it seems that they are not a complete abomination to Him. So, would sacrifices today be an abomination? Or simply unnecessary and unaccepted by Him? I think, we should have in mind, that several types of sacrifices and offerings are given to the Jews. Sacrifices for atonement, burnt offerings, peace offerings and several more. I have some ties to Messianic Jews, living in Israel and as far as I can say, it seems that this topic is not a simple black/white topic. It requires a pretty distinguished view and is surely worth a separate thead.  |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2018 12:23:36 GMT -6
Many, many of the comments on this thread seem to "read into" the overall text...... For example verse 26 reads -- after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one will be eliminated. No one will support him. That is the text ... Yes, everyone now knows that is Jesus and He was raised again ..... But as far as this text in Daniel goes --- we DO NOT KNOW that --- the TEXT does not say He was raised again. As far as the text goes -- he remains dead. Same goes with barbiosheepgirl comment "....But Christ is the THE Sacrifice after the 69th week. No more Sacrifice or grain offering....." YES, in HIND-sight we can see that clearly .... BUT based on the TEXT alone we do not have those connections being made..... People are "reading INTO the text" -- information that did not exist at the time the prophecy was given..... This is one reason, I believe there is so much confusion and debate -- we know much more of the story and it is somewhat easier to predict how it will turn out .... BUT that is reading into the existing text......... I would not say, this is reading INTO the text, although one could clearly regard it this way...  I think, that most of the contributing members here simply try to harmonize the given scripture in Daniel with other scripture. Many scriptures make often (more) sense within a broader context and reveal the whole meaning only if taken together. Daniel IS definitely (as stated here in several posts, mike and others) the most sophisticated puzzle and in my eyes the key to the endtimes, but at the moment I would say we need some more pieces of the grand puzzle to solve the riddle. I fully agree with mike's position on this. Currently I am reading through another very interesting book about Daniel and will add this timeline model here, too. Maybe it is helpful for some of the readers here. |
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Post by fitz on Mar 6, 2018 15:06:56 GMT -6
I have a question...and maybe this isn't the right thread...but what about the sacrifices that will take place in the temple Ezekiel mentions? God directs them to consecrate the altar with sacrifices and make sacrifices for sin offerings. (chapter 43:18-27) Sacrifices are also mentioned in 45:17-25. Concerning the temple, He says -- 43:7 And He said to me, "Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel forever..." So, I understand there is no need for any more sacrifices, and I've heard an explanation for why there will be sacrifices in the Millennial Kingdom, it seems that they are not a complete abomination to Him. So, would sacrifices today be an abomination? Or simply unnecessary and unaccepted by Him? My understanding: The sacrifices the Jews did prior to AD 70, and the ones they hope to start again soon, are to atone for sin. Its been that way for them from the beginning, but as we know, the blood of animals can not fully satisfy. That's why they had to perform this ritual over and over again. Sin - sacrifice, sin - sacrifice, etc., etc., etc., on and on. As Christians, we understand that Christ was the once for all sacrifice for sin. Hallelujah! My belief is that during the Millennium, sacrificing will indeed occur, and this is done, not to atone for sin, but rather as a memorial. During the Millennium, humans will be living on the earth, and sin will still plague them. The sacrifices will demonstrate, graphically, that there is no remission of sin without the shedding of blood, therefore, the need for a permanent sacrifice...Jesus! This is like communion for us in that it is a remembrance of what Jesus has done for us in the bread and the cup. So, these Millennial sacrifices are done to point the way to salvation in Christ. www.gotquestions.org/millennial-sacrifices.html has a much better and more full explanation. |
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Post by Natalie on Mar 6, 2018 15:36:43 GMT -6
That's how I have heard it explained, too, fitz. |
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Post by yardstick on Mar 6, 2018 22:00:24 GMT -6
witness1 For what it's worth, I don't think you've been divisive at all. In fact, I believe that you've been more than gracious in all of your posts and responses. Totally agree with you on this. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2018 5:09:16 GMT -6
I have a question...and maybe this isn't the right thread...but what about the sacrifices that will take place in the temple Ezekiel mentions? God directs them to consecrate the altar with sacrifices and make sacrifices for sin offerings. (chapter 43:18-27) Sacrifices are also mentioned in 45:17-25. Concerning the temple, He says -- 43:7 And He said to me, "Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel forever..." So, I understand there is no need for any more sacrifices, and I've heard an explanation for why there will be sacrifices in the Millennial Kingdom, it seems that they are not a complete abomination to Him. So, would sacrifices today be an abomination? Or simply unnecessary and unaccepted by Him? My understanding: The sacrifices the Jews did prior to AD 70, and the ones they hope to start again soon, are to atone for sin. Its been that way for them from the beginning, but as we know, the blood of animals can not fully satisfy. That's why they had to perform this ritual over and over again. Sin - sacrifice, sin - sacrifice, etc., etc., etc., on and on. As Christians, we understand that Christ was the once for all sacrifice for sin. Hallelujah! My belief is that during the Millennium, sacrificing will indeed occur, and this is done, not to atone for sin, but rather as a memorial. During the Millennium, humans will be living on the earth, and sin will still plague them. The sacrifices will demonstrate, graphically, that there is no remission of sin without the shedding of blood, therefore, the need for a permanent sacrifice...Jesus! This is like communion for us in that it is a remembrance of what Jesus has done for us in the bread and the cup. So, these Millennial sacrifices are done to point the way to salvation in Christ. www.gotquestions.org/millennial-sacrifices.html has a much better and more full explanation. Thanx fitz, that's what I tried to say a few posts above.... Not all sacrifices should be regarded as abominations today (after Calvary). My impression is, that some see red flags as soon as sacrifices are mentioned. But that seems to throw out the baby with the bath water.... |
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Post by witness1 on Mar 27, 2018 5:08:39 GMT -6
I have learned a few things in the last couple of weeks, and what has been brought to our attention with Isaac Newton’s interpretation of Daniel 9... that it is also about the second coming... has caused me to further believe that the first half of Daniel’s 70th week was fulfilled in Jesus’ ministry. I wrote a response to a question in another thread outlining these things, and I want to share the link here in case anyone has not been following the other thread but is interested in what I’m seeing with the dates and the way we count the 69 weeks. unsealed.boards.net/post/20968 |
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Post by rt on Mar 28, 2018 8:08:28 GMT -6
I have a question...and maybe this isn't the right thread...but what about the sacrifices that will take place in the temple Ezekiel mentions? God directs them to consecrate the altar with sacrifices and make sacrifices for sin offerings. (chapter 43:18-27) Sacrifices are also mentioned in 45:17-25. Concerning the temple, He says -- 43:7 And He said to me, "Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel forever..." So, I understand there is no need for any more sacrifices, and I've heard an explanation for why there will be sacrifices in the Millennial Kingdom, it seems that they are not a complete abomination to Him. So, would sacrifices today be an abomination? Or simply unnecessary and unaccepted by Him? I have done a fair amount of study about this, though I am sure I am still no authority on the subject, but as I see it the reason that sacrifices will be conducted during the Millennium is so that Israel can fulfill their covenant to God. Israel stood at the foot of Mt. Sinai and as a nation they entered into a covenant with God, promising to obey, and to carry out the laws He gave them. This was a covenant that they were to carry forth perpetually throughout their generations. Yet they failed to keep the Covenant and their "branches" were cut off of the olive tree (salvation). The sacrifice of Jesus grafted the wild olive branches (gentiles) into that tree (see Romans 11), Jesus put God's law into our hearts, but Israel will be regrafted again into that tree and will enable them to practice the law as they promised to do on Mt. Sinai. The law points to Christ, the sacrifices all point to Christ, salvation even in the OT was always about faith and God's grace, (See Hebrews 11). |
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Post by mike on Mar 28, 2018 10:26:03 GMT -6
So rt you think that even with Jesus reigning on earth that sacrifices will begin/continue? Why would God do that? Just doesnt seem to make sense to me that the with the ultimate price already paid, and the risen King seen by all, He would want sacrifices again. Just wondering and havent studied this through (at all). |
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Post by fitz on Mar 28, 2018 11:24:26 GMT -6
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Post by witness1 on Mar 28, 2018 13:11:11 GMT -6
So rt you think that even with Jesus reigning on earth that sacrifices will begin/continue? Why would God do that? Just doesnt seem to make sense to me that the with the ultimate price already paid, and the risen King seen by all, He would want sacrifices again. Just wondering and havent studied this through (at all). I'm having a hard time with this too. I've read the above article in gotquestions, and I get what they're saying. And Ezekiel certainly sounds like there will be sacrifices in the Millennium. But the lion will lay down with the lamb... it seems strange to me that we will still kill animals, even if it's for a memorial. I keep wondering if this is one of those things we just don't understand yet, although I have no idea how else to interpret those passages in Ezekiel. |
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