|
|
Post by witness1 on Feb 21, 2018 8:00:34 GMT -6
Look carefully back at the verse though. The idea that the covenant is broken comes from the idea that the antichrist is the one making the covenant and that he stops the sacrifice in a temple, thereby breaking his covenant of peace. That really isn't what the verse says though:
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Daniel 9:27 (KJV)
What the verse actually says is that sacrifice and oblation will cease in the middle of the week. If this "he" is Jesus, this is certainly true! Jesus' sacrifice caused the need for animal sacrifices to cease.
|
|
|
|
Post by kjs on Feb 21, 2018 8:39:57 GMT -6
That is when we get into translation issues ....
27
He will make a firm covenant
with many for one week,
but in the middle of the week
he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering.
And the abomination of desolation
will be on a wing of the temple[j][k]
until the decreed destruction
is poured out on the desolator.” {CSB}
Jesus warns of the coming "abomination of desolation" -- do you really think Jesus will be bringing it about?
Also, the stopping of "sacrifice and offering" -- implies those items were within the covenant -- causing them to stop would be a breakage of said covenant.
MOST likely the "Covenant" -- will be telling Israel they may build their temple and return to their rituals of sacrifice.
|
|
|
|
Post by witness1 on Feb 21, 2018 9:20:01 GMT -6
Yes, the issue in translation is whether the word "but" or "and" should be used before "in the middle of the week". Most translations have "and" or simply start a new sentence.
If it is "but" like this translation you've posted, I could see how the end to sacrifice and offering would be breaking the covenant.
If it is "and" or a new sentence like most translations say, then the ending of sacrifice and offering is actually A PART OF the covenant.
So then we go back to... what does the rest of the Bible say about covenants? The whole theme of the Bible is that Jesus' once and for all sacrifice ended animal sacrifices forever and that He confirmed the covenants with the forefathers through His blood. I have a really hard time making an entire model on a "but" and a "he".
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2018 9:26:49 GMT -6
Not sure about this, but some say, the following scripture may be the basis for the assumed covenant of 666 with Israel.
Isa 28
14 Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
16 Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
Personally, I consider it also as a possibility, that the covenant mentioned in Daniel 9 is the covenant of God with Israel. God himself makes it clear to Israel in some big event that He still cares for His chosen people, He "confirms" HIS covenant. Israel in contrast may possibly make some covenant with the AC and consider this to be a covenant. I see no problem in the "stopping of the sacrifices" by God himself. Isa 28:18 could very well hint to that. This must not be a break of some covenant. But it could also be, that Daniel 9 is fulfilled in the past (Covenant Theology point of view). This would lead me to the assumption, that both sides may be right. Covenant Theology and Dispensationalism. The following sketch demonstrates that quite well: It is simply a matter of where you stand, left or right....  These are just some yet incomplete and not fully developed thoughts on this....
|
|
|
|
Post by witness1 on Feb 21, 2018 9:28:16 GMT -6
|
|
|
|
Post by witness1 on Feb 21, 2018 9:37:48 GMT -6
Also, let's keep in mind the purpose of the 70 weeks as given in Dan 9:24:
“Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city,
to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity,
to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet,
and to anoint a most holy place."
How does God accomplish these things? Answer: by sending Messiah to atone for iniquity at His first coming; and then to: seal up transgression, put an end to sin, bring in everlasting righteousness, seal up vision and prophet, and anoint a most holy place at His second coming.
We need to see that this is ALL about Christ!
|
|
|
|
Post by kjs on Feb 21, 2018 15:25:09 GMT -6
Let's look at it as spelled out (just by word) -- I know hard to read that way.....
desolations (8074) are determined (2782) and for (5921) and the offering (4503) he shall cause the sacrifice (2077) to cease (7673)
of the week (7620) and in the middle (2677) the consummation (3617) and even until (5704) he shall make desolate (8074)
of abominations [it] (8251) the overspreading (3671) desolate (8074) on (5921) shall be poured (5413) that determined (2782)
Focusing on 8074 -- Daniel 8:13 the crime causing horror, and ׳שׁ as noun horror-causer, appaller, Daniel 9:27b.
Based on strong's --- specifically for Daniel 9:27b -- means 'One who is a horror-causer'
That just does not sound like someone who is anointed.......
|
|
|
|
Post by barbiosheepgirl on Feb 21, 2018 16:50:56 GMT -6
This is such a good exercise because it gets us into His Word, His Council His Laws His Plans His Character, etc etc...so we all here are searching our Bibles on this one and, hopefully, are not just blindly following another man's opinion.
Nothing we are doing here has not been done before. So why the discussion? All of us realize that like the brilliant 3 or 4 boards cartoon that it depends on the surface what glasses you are wearing in how you discern. I dont want to call them dispensations, but we do have key major events that mark a reaction, or are the action of God regarding man and the kingdom that we were cast from because of the Apple event. Timeline:
The Apple event, Noah, Abraham, Israel (Isaac), Moses, Promised Land, the divided kingdoms of Israel and Judah (hmm, think about that one spiritually for a moment), JESUS as Savior, Holy Spirit Redeemer, a Revealing of the sons of God, Jesus as the Judge-His Wrath of Judgement, the Kingdom of Christ reigning ( all beastly kingdoms destroyed), All things Subjected under Him, Then to GOD, and then a new heaven and new earth>>>>
Correct my timeline if you have to...
Daniel was praying and received this answer in verse 9:24, and like to the prophet Isaiah, thru whose words we see Jesus as clear as day, God was demonstrating His Plan of Salvation to Daniel (putting an end to the sacrifice of animals for one) using very key words that we see all throughout the Gospels and the Epistles. Who is our Holy place today? Who was annointed by the Holy Spirit? Who put an end to sacrifice? And, what is the consequences of not believing this gospel message? Gonna keep going here, but dont want a long post...
|
|
|
|
Post by witness1 on Feb 21, 2018 19:52:10 GMT -6
Let's look at it as spelled out (just by word) -- I know hard to read that way..... desolations (8074) are determined (2782) and for (5921) and the offering (4503) he shall cause the sacrifice (2077) to cease (7673) of the week (7620) and in the middle (2677) the consummation (3617) and even until (5704) he shall make desolate (8074) of abominations [it] (8251) the overspreading (3671) desolate (8074) on (5921) shall be poured (5413) that determined (2782) Focusing on 8074 -- Daniel 8:13 the crime causing horror, and ׳שׁ as noun horror-causer, appaller, Daniel 9:27b. Based on strong's --- specifically for Daniel 9:27b -- means 'One who is a horror-causer'That just does not sound like someone who is anointed....... I absolutely agree that 9:27b is about the horror-causer. I think it’s the same pattern as I am proposing in 9:26... 9:26a and 9:27a is about Messiah and 9:26b and 9:27b is about the enemy. I’m less clear on what the abomination is and am still studying it. It is interesting that “wing” cross referenced to Zechariah 5 which is the woman of wickedness in a basket going to Babylon. I also feel that Ezekiel 8-9 are very significant. Ezekiel saw abominations through a hole in the wall - idol worship in God’s temple - and then the young men who groaned about the abominations were sealed with the seal of God on their foreheads (opposite of the beast mark on the forehead) while everyone else was judged for their wickedness. The seal was the “tav” mark (an X), and “tav” has the value 400. This story was brought to my attention because the eclipses drew a Giant X (the tav-400) across the country and there is this “grand coincidence” that the sun is 400 times bigger than the moon yet also 400 times farther away so they appear to be the same size and perfectly eclipse. So Ezekiel 8-9 has been in the back of my mind since the eclipse, and I find the connection between the abominations in the temple before the sealing of God’s servants very interesting. I will try to explain my view of Daniel 9:27b about the abomination and the antichrist soon. Thank you for engaging in the discussion kjs. |
|
|
|
Post by barbiosheepgirl on Feb 22, 2018 10:19:31 GMT -6
In taking the Hebrew words and translating them in the order as presented, it has to be kept in mind that word order is different for Hebrew than it is for English. Is this accounted for already in the word order that you put there kjs ? from wiki: Word order in Modern Hebrew is somewhat similar to that in English: as opposed to Biblical Hebrew, where the word order is Verb-Subject-Object, the usual word order in Modern Hebrew is Subject-Verb-Object. |
|
|
|
Post by barbiosheepgirl on Feb 22, 2018 11:26:38 GMT -6
It is also odd, that the pronoun 'he' in verse 27:
there are three hebrew words:
And he shall confirm, a VERB, wə-hiḡ-bîr
he shall cause the sacrifice, a NOUN, ze-ḇaḥ
he shall make desolate, a VERB, mə-šō-mêm,
Hub has the Hebrew laid out in this order:
Verb Noun Adj Noun Adj
wə-hiḡ-bîr bə-rîṯ lā-rab-bîm šā-ḇū-a‘ ’e-ḥāḏ ;
1) And he shall confirm the covenant with the many week for one ;
Noun Noun Verb Noun Noun
wa-ḥă-ṣî haš-šā-ḇū-a‘ yaš-bîṯ ze-ḇaḥ ū-min-ḥāh ,
2)and in the middle of the week to cease he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering ,
Prep Noun Noun Verb
wə-‘al kə-nap̄ šiq-qū-ṣîm mə-šō-mêm ,
3)and for the overspreading of abominations [it] he shall make desolate
Prep Noun Verb
wə-‘aḏ- kā-lāh wə-ne-ḥĕ-rā-ṣāh ,
4)and even until the consummation that determined ,
Verb Prep Verb
tit-taḵ ‘al- šō-mêm .
5)shall be poured on desolate .
I see the two words Mesomem in line 3 and and somem in line 5 ... Who is the subject of line 3? this person that is making desolate for (because) of the overspreading of abomination
in both lines, desolate is a verb here, not a noun, so it is action on or by a subject, desolate made and desolate shall be poured...making desolate, and a pouring desolate
So at the beginning we have the subject nouns: the covenant, sacrifice and offering, the overspreading of abominations, the consummation (point of completion)
what are the verbs of the subjects: the confirmation, the ceasing, the making desolate, the determined (a firm decision)
This whole sentence, from start to the semi-colon thru the commas to me is one person doing all of this.... I am not sure if this solves anything looking at it this way, but I wanted to get my verbs and nouns, subjects and actions in perspective...
Big Question: Does all of Daniel talk about one single prophecy? Is what is spoken of in Daniel 11 the same as what is spoken of in Daniel 9?
|
|
|
|
Post by kjs on Feb 22, 2018 12:15:30 GMT -6
As both "word" displays point out the "HE" is not really there in the verses....
Meaning it is always tied to the verb and is implied --- "SHE", "IT", "Someone", "A Person" -- ok maybe "IT" is going too far ....
The point is ... a generic masculine person is being implied with the verb choice .... but we are never told specifically --- who that person is...
The point I made earlier -- the "Anointed One" (Messiah) is always highlighted within the text ... so if that "highlight" is missing then that person is not "anointed" ......
Daniel has several "VISIONS" that span large amounts of time. Are they the exact same vision -- just expanding the other text?
I never thought of it like that - I guess that is possible .......
After all the first "Vision" is a huge Statue made of various materials ... and scholars feel it represents all the "world kingdoms" ...
So if vision one is supposed to represent future history (from when it was presented) .... that means it was foretelling everything from Daniel on up to the end of the AGE (when Christ takes over in the 1K reign)
Daniel 9 too is telling future history -- including the time of the end of the age (when Christ takes over in 1K) -- only telling it from the perspective of Israel. (ie starts off -- for your people and Jerusalem )
So it may be possible all of Daniel is describing the same future history but from different perspectives......
|
|
|
|
Post by barbiosheepgirl on Feb 22, 2018 14:05:54 GMT -6
What happened to me kjs is that in checking out the usages of the hebrew words, when it takes you to various places in Daniel, I get more stuff to discern, that I had not focused on, so I was asking this general question so as not to forget the overall purpose of Daniel. I didnt want to pick and choose verses so as to take things out of context. I came across a verse that I had not studied before: The title of this passage is called The Little Horn in my NASV Dan 8:9Out of one of them came forth a rather small horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Beautiful Land. 10It grew up to the host of heaven and caused some of the host and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down. 11It even magnified itself to be equal with the Commander of the host; and it removed the regular sacrifice from Him, and the place of His sanctuary was thrown down. 12And on account of transgression the host will be given over to the horn along with the regular sacrifice; and it will fling truth to the ground and perform its will and prosper. 13Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to that particular one who was speaking, “How long will the vision about the regular sacrifice apply, while the transgression causes horror, so as to allow both the holy place and the host to be trampled?” 14He said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the holy place will be properly restored.”To me I see Revelation all over the place..this count is about 6.3 years So I am wondering two things: Is this the rebuilding timeframe to the 2nd temple, or is this the timeframe to the holy place, Kingdom of God (Jesus 1000 year reign)? And then I have my answer: verse 17So he came near to where I was standing, and when he came I was frightened and fell on my face; but he said to me, “Son of man, understand that the vision pertains to the time of the end.”As we go on Daniel gets an interpretation that does describe an anti-God type king. When we get into chapter 9 is says that Daniel observed in the books of Jeremiah: Dan 9:1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of Median descent, who was made king over the kingdom of the Chaldeans— 2in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, observed in the books the number of the years which was revealed as the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.Lets go there:Jeremiah 25:11 11‘This whole land will be a desolation and a horror, and these nations will serve the king of Babylon seventy years. I find this interesting is God is sending His servant to do this: Jer 25: 8“Therefore thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘Because you have not obeyed My words, 9behold, I will send and take all the families of the north,’ declares the LORD, ‘and I will send to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, My servant, and will bring them against this land and against its inhabitants and against all these nations round about; and I will utterly destroy them and make them a horror and a hissing, and an everlasting desolation. 10‘Moreover, I will take from them the voice of joy and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones and the light of the lamp. 11‘This whole land will be a desolation and a horror, and these nations will serve the king of Babylon seventy years.If nothing else, it looks like we need to consider Jeremiah as well...and in doing some research, Jeremiah appears to be the 1st temple destruction...but was that beause Daniel wanted to view the history of that for the sake of a pattern? |
|
|
|
Post by kjs on Feb 22, 2018 14:27:32 GMT -6
I find this interesting is God is sending His servant to do this: Jer 25: 8“Therefore thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘Because you have not obeyed My words, 9behold, I will send and take all the families of the north,’ declares the LORD, ‘and I will send to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, My servant, and will bring them against this land and against its inhabitants and against all these nations round about; and I will utterly destroy them and make them a horror and a hissing, and an everlasting desolation. 10‘Moreover, I will take from them the voice of joy and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones and the light of the lamp. 11‘This whole land will be a desolation and a horror, and these nations will serve the king of Babylon seventy years.
Nebuchadnezzar is God's servant (first unwillingly and later willingly -- He did write a portion of Daniel after he returned to his right mind) (he even appears to become a believer -- which may mean he is saved) He actually "conquered" Israel several times ... first the ten tribe area, then Judah, and then Judah again.... It sounds like Jerusalem and surrounding countryside was completely laid to waste ...... All foretold by Jeremiah (not the bullfrog) about the how, why of the fall of Jerusalem. |
|
|
|
Post by witness1 on Feb 22, 2018 15:51:14 GMT -6
I haven't had time to look through these posts as carefully as I would like, but I want to throw out there that most scholars believe Daniel 8 pertains to Antiochus IV from 170 BC to Dec 14, 164BC when Judas Maccabeus cleansed and rededicated the temple. Verse 8:26 says, "The vision of the evenings and the mornings that has been told is true, but seal up the vision, for it refers to may days from now".
So perhaps the entire vision pertains to "the end" being the "70 weeks", but it says the 2300 evenings and mornings "are many days from now", which is different than the final days we are anticipating in the future.
|
|
