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witness1
Berean

Posts: 703

Timelines Overview Mar 4, 2018 5:31:27 GMT -6 via mobile Natalie, barbiosheepgirl, and 6 more like this

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Post by witness1 on Mar 4, 2018 5:31:27 GMT -6

I agree it’s probably not worth continuing much longer. I still want to answer Fitz’s question and share what I read in Zephaniah, but I definitely don’t want to argue. We have been traveling across the country this week so I haven’t had time for anything thoughtful, but I should have time tonight or tomorrow and I do want to throw those things out there and then leave it at that on my end. But For now I want to say that I don’t think it’s our English Bibles that are at fault. My friend read it to me straight out of the Hebrew Bible and showed me the “he”, which is a letter within the word. I guess that letter would be gone within the word if there was no “he”. I asked if there was any way the Septuagint translation without the “he” could be correct, and he said absolutely not... “there’s definitely a “he”. But we don’t know who the “he” is and there is no way to tell.” I see this as one of God’s brilliant chess moves, that it could be either one. This little word has been dividing believers for centuries. We would be wise to not let it come between us, and we would be wise to see that God left it ambiguous on purpose.

kjs
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...God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us

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Timelines Overview Mar 5, 2018 8:47:03 GMT -6 sawdy, witness1, and 1 more like this

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Post by kjs on Mar 5, 2018 8:47:03 GMT -6

I think part of the issue we are dealing with prophecy and EVEN when prophecy is spelled out for us directly we STILL do not understand it completely ....

Starting with the FIRST spelled out prophecy.....

Luke 4:18-20
18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me; he has anointed me to tell the good news to the poor.
He has sent me to announce release to the prisoners and recovery of sight to the blind,
to set oppressed people free, 19 and to announce the year of the Lord’s favor.”
20 Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant, and sat down. While the eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fixed on him, 21 he began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled, as you’ve heard it read aloud.” (ISV)

Here is how the prophecy was given.....

Isaiah 61 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because the Lord has anointed me; he has sent me to bring good news to the oppressed
and to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives, and release from darkness for the prisoners;
2 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor, the day of vengeance of our God;
to comfort all who mourn; 3 to provide for those who grieve in Zion— to bestow on them a crown of beauty instead of ashes,
the oil of gladness instead of mourning, a mantle of praise instead of a spirit of despair.” (ISV)

Look at the original (as given) prophecy there is nothing within the original prophecy -- which would indicate that there would be a "time period" of more than 2k years would fall between the words read on one side of the comma vs the words read on the other side of the comma.....

BUT in hindsight we can clearly see the next portion (or the portion after the comma) is still waiting fulfillment -- whereas - Jesus has indicated the first portion has been fulfilled with his first coming......

I think we are going to see the same thing for all of Daniel's prophecies -- Some we are going to mark off with a check-mark -- "Yep this portion has been fulfilled (such as the Messiah's death)"
Please note no where in the prophecy -- does it say the Messiah will rise to life again --- though hindsight show us that has occurred as well.

The destruction of the city and temple appears to be another portion we can check off.....

When it is all said an done -- we will find they all match out just fine ..... just we cannot see it as of yet............

sawdy
Watchman

Posts: 498

Timelines Overview Mar 5, 2018 9:26:38 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by sawdy on Mar 5, 2018 9:26:38 GMT -6

Mar 5, 2018 8:47:03 GMT -6 kjs said:

I think part of the issue we are dealing with prophecy and EVEN when prophecy is spelled out for us directly we STILL do not understand it completely ....

Starting with the FIRST spelled out prophecy.....

Luke 4:18-20
18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me; he has anointed me to tell the good news to the poor.
He has sent me to announce release to the prisoners and recovery of sight to the blind,
to set oppressed people free, 19 and to announce the year of the Lord’s favor.”
20 Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant, and sat down. While the eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fixed on him, 21 he began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled, as you’ve heard it read aloud.” (ISV)

Here is how the prophecy was given.....

Isaiah 61 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because the Lord has anointed me; he has sent me to bring good news to the oppressed
and to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives, and release from darkness for the prisoners;
2 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor, the day of vengeance of our God;
to comfort all who mourn; 3 to provide for those who grieve in Zion— to bestow on them a crown of beauty instead of ashes,
the oil of gladness instead of mourning, a mantle of praise instead of a spirit of despair.” (ISV)

Look at the original (as given) prophecy there is nothing within the original prophecy -- which would indicate that there would be a "time period" of more than 2k years would fall between the words read on one side of the comma vs the words read on the other side of the comma.....

BUT in hindsight we can clearly see the next portion (or the portion after the comma) is still waiting fulfillment -- whereas - Jesus has indicated the first portion has been fulfilled with his first coming......

I think we are going to see the same thing for all of Daniel's prophecies -- Some we are going to mark off with a check-mark -- "Yep this portion has been fulfilled (such as the Messiah's death)"
Please note no where in the prophecy -- does it say the Messiah will rise to life again --- though hindsight show us that has occurred as well.

The destruction of the city and temple appears to be another portion we can check off.....

When it is all said an done -- we will find they all match out just fine ..... just we cannot see it as of yet............

Thanks for explaining this passage. I had read it and wondered why the quoting was incomplete. Your explanation helped me to understand it better. Thx!

witness1
Berean

Posts: 703

Timelines Overview Mar 5, 2018 11:51:27 GMT -6

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Post by witness1 on Mar 5, 2018 11:51:27 GMT -6

Be silent before the Lord GOD!
For the day of the LORD is near;
the LORD has prepared a sacrifice
and consecrated his guests.
And on the day of the LORD’s sacrifice—
“I will punish the officials and the king’s sons
and all who array themselves in foreign attire.
On that day I will punish
everyone who leaps over the threshold,
and those who fill their master’sc house
with violence and fraud.

“On that day,” declares the LORD,
“a cry will be heard from the Fish Gate,
a wail from the Second Quarter,
a loud crash from the hills.
Wail, O inhabitants of the Mortar!
For all the tradersd are no more;
all who weigh out silver are cut off.
At that time I will search Jerusalem with lamps,
and I will punish the men
who are complacent,
those who say in their hearts,
‘The LORD will not do good,
nor will he do ill.’
Their goods shall be plundered,
and their houses laid waste.
Though they build houses,
they shall not inhabit them;
though they plant vineyards,
they shall not drink wine from them.”

The great day of the LORD is near,
near and hastening fast;
the sound of the day of the LORD is bitter;
the mighty man cries aloud there.
A day of wrath is that day,
a day of distress and anguish,
a day of ruin and devastation,
a day of darkness and gloom,
a day of clouds and thick darkness,
a day of trumpet blast and battle cry
against the fortified cities
and against the lofty battlements.

I will bring distress on mankind,
so that they shall walk like the blind,
because they have sinned against the LORD;
their blood shall be poured out like dust,
and their flesh like dung.
Neither their silver nor their gold
shall be able to deliver them
on the day of the wrath of the LORD.
In the fire of his jealousy,
all the earth shall be consumed;
for a full and sudden end
he will make of all the inhabitants of the earth.
Gather together, yes, gather,
O shameless nation,
before the decree takes effect
—before the day passes away like chaff—
before there comes upon you
the burning anger of the LORD,
before there comes upon you
the day of the anger of the LORD.
Seek the LORD, all you humble of the land,
who do his just commands;
seek righteousness; seek humility;
perhaps you may be hidden
*on* the day of the anger of the LORD.
Zephaniah 1:7-2:3

Some of you have read the article on unsealed about the end of the passage above, about how we need to gather together BEFORE the day of anger of the Lord and that we may be hidden on this day. I do think it's interesting that we are hidden ON the day of the Lord and not before it. But I would like to look back up in verse 7 at the bolded section: "the Lord has prepared a sacrifice and consecrated his guests. And on the day of the LORD’s sacrifice—“I will punish the officials and the king’s sons..."

The note in my Bible has this to say about this sacrifice: "The sacrifice will be prepared by God himself, not dedicated to him as is customary. The guests will be consecrated. This either means (1) that they are to eat a holy meal (cf. 1 Sam 16:5); or possibly (2) that they are themselves the sacrifice."

So, about this sacrifice and these guests:
1) The Lord himself prepares the sacrifice
2) The guests seem to be the sacrifice

Guests where? Guests of whom?

I first read this passage the day after Amir's message about not missing our visitation. He said that Jesus visited earth and the Jews sadly missed it. Jesus did not stay forever... he came for a visit and then went back to heaven. Amir made a joke that a guest stays for only a short time... otherwise he is a leech if he stays 50 years.

Likewise, Amir says we will be guests in heaven for a short time during the tribulation, and we need to be prepared to not miss the time of our visitation. So this verse about guests really jumped out at me since it was the day after Amir's message. I find it interesting that Jesus visited the Jews for 3.5 years (in ministry) and I propose we will visit heaven for 3.5 years during the tribulation.

About the Lord preparing the sacrifice... how and why would He do this? Is this an animal sacrifice? A human sacrifice? Something about this must be different than we would expect since it does not make sense that the Lord would kill his guests on an altar. This idea does seem to fit though with the idea that "the sacrifice and offering" will cease in the middle of the week and that this sacrifice is the living sacrifice of believers (as the second fulfillment of the sacrifice and offering ceasing... the first being Jesus' once and for all sacrifice) who will be presented as guests in heaven. The Lord Himself has prepared this sacrifice, and the sacrifice is the guests who will be hidden on the day of the Lord.

Interestingly, the word "cease" in Daniel 9:27 is "shabath" and often means "sabbath rest". It is used in reference to God resting on the 7th day of creation, letting the land rest on the 7th year, and the commandment to keep the sabbath. It was used when the manna ceased to fall from heaven because other food was available (Joshua 5:12), and it is used in Ezekiel 16:41 when Israel stops playing the whore. It does have other meanings as well, but it seems often to be used that something ceases because it has been completed.

Daniel 9:27, to me, says that sacrifice and offering cease because it has been completed. The sacrifice and offering can rest because the work has been accomplished. This certainly fits with Jesus fulfilling the need for sacrifice and offering in the middle of the week, and it fits that the living sacrifice of believers- our prayers and offerings- will cease in the middle of the week as well, because they are complete.

Could the verse in Zephaniah above about the Lord preparing a sacrifice and consecrating his guests be about us? Are we the living sacrifice and guests of heaven which the Lord will prepare on the Day of the Lord? Our work on earth will soon cease because it has been completed.

yardstick Lamplighter Posts: 1,527	Timelines Overview Mar 5, 2018 13:04:10 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by yardstick on Mar 5, 2018 13:04:10 GMT -6 Feb 21, 2018 9:28:16 GMT -6 witness1 said: For what it's worth, here's how it works in my mind: Hey witness1, im not sure if it makes much difference, but three score and two is 62, rather than 69, isnt it?

witness1
Berean

Posts: 703

Timelines Overview Mar 5, 2018 13:14:37 GMT -6

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Post by witness1 on Mar 5, 2018 13:14:37 GMT -6

Yes it is. I'm sorry I wasn't more clear... before that verse, 7 weeks are mentioned in verse 25 that I didn't include here. So three score and two is indeed 62, but that brings the count up to 69 with the 7 weeks mentioned previously.

kjs
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Posts: 1,033

Timelines Overview Mar 5, 2018 13:42:13 GMT -6

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Post by kjs on Mar 5, 2018 13:42:13 GMT -6

Sorry, still see this as trying to "force the issue issue" with your timeline......

AFTER 62 weeks (with the first seven already accounted for) is 69 weeks -- when the Messiah is cut off.

Either the "cutting off" or the "resurrection" is the "PAUSE" on the week count.

You forcing the city and temple destruction (which occurred roughly thirty plus years later) into a 3 1/2 year window as part of the 70th week -- is basically saying God is playing with the numbers and only some the elapse time should be counted and some should not.

Either as tradition says the 70th week gets put on hold (or the pause) -- or it does not and God missed his timing.

Since I know you will agree God does not miss his timing -- you have to identify where the pause occurred.....

Either event "the cutting off or the resurrection" -- basically leaves the 70th week in tack.

Trying to force the 70AD event within that period as well --- does not..........

witness1
Berean

Posts: 703

Timelines Overview Mar 5, 2018 16:30:49 GMT -6 barbiosheepgirl likes this

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Post by witness1 on Mar 5, 2018 16:30:49 GMT -6

I don't know the rules about whether prophecy is allowed to be fulfilled during the pause or not, but I personally see no reason why the pause can't begin with the crucifixion and then the destruction take place during the pause. However I can see how others would disagree. I just think looking at the verb "shabath" elevates the idea that the sacrifice and offering "ceasing" is about Jesus, so I personally value that idea above making the destruction fit within the 70 weeks (instead of during the pause). I think this is probably the reason covenant theologians believe there is no pause and no rapture though... because they are insistent that the sacrifice and offering ceasing is synonymous with Jesus being cut off. It is the hill they are willing to die on, and after looking at the verb this morning, I see why they feel that way.

I plan to leave this alone though unless Fitz would like his question answered. I do not want to be divisive. The entire search I have been on is to determine whether it is possible to unite the various theological positions surrounding this prophecy, and if I am being divisive then I want to step back. I look forward to meeting you all in heaven one day, and if no one proclaims himself to be God between now and then, I will be the first to admit that I was wrong. And if I am wrong, I have no regrets... I have enjoyed the time I have spent in prayer asking for discernment and the time I have spent in the scriptures.

yardstick
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Posts: 1,527

Timelines Overview Mar 5, 2018 17:06:42 GMT -6

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Post by yardstick on Mar 5, 2018 17:06:42 GMT -6

Feb 23, 2018 12:05:45 GMT -6 witness1 said:

OR there is option C: The abomination of desolation in chapter 8 is different from the the one in 9:27... chapter 8 being already fulfilled and chapter 9 being the one of which Jesus spoke.

It seems to me that this has to be the case and that even the traditional dispensational model would support this. If the time for the chapter 8 abomination is 2300 evenings and mornings, this cannot occur at the midpoint of a 7 year tribulation unless it continued into the millennium.

So then we are left with the conclusion that a) the chapter 8 abomination has already been fulfilled and chapter 9 is a separate event, OR b) the abomination is sooner than the midpoint of 7 years if they are the same thing.

EDIT: I think your suggestion, kjs, that it is intended to form a pattern is a good one.

How about the possibility that 2300 is how many days from the time the temple is completed to the start of the millennium? Could the new temple be built in just 250~ days?

yardstick
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Timelines Overview Mar 5, 2018 17:21:18 GMT -6 witness1 likes this

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Post by yardstick on Mar 5, 2018 17:21:18 GMT -6

Feb 26, 2018 15:14:20 GMT -6 witness1 said:

Thanks for weighing in kjs . So it seems we are in agreement that the 70th week started but was placed on hold after the crucifixion. Yay! We also believe that all 6 purposes have not been fulfilled. Even if we differ on how many exactly have been fulfilled, there are some still future. Yay again!

Our disagreement lies in whether verse 9:27a is about the crucifixion or the antichrist stopping sacrifices.

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease"

I think you have an excellent point that Messiah is referred to as "Anointed" in this passage and that 9:27b is not about Messiah. (I was definitely wrong about that before which is why I am grateful for the discussion!) But in 9:27a we still just have that darn "he". I feel like I would agree with you if it said, "the prince will cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease" without it saying "the anointed prince". But we don't see that. Just "he", which could either refer to the anointed prince or the other prince.

So then my question is... since we only have a "he" without knowing whether "he" is anointed or not... what makes sense with everything else we are seeing in the world right now? What fits the theme of scripture, the day counts in Revelation, and the references to "the day of the Lord" in 2 Thes and Zeph 1? What fits with the nuggets of truth that individual watchmen have gleaned from scripture (which don't seem to fit with each other)? What fits with the dreams many have been given with warnings about not falling prey to false doctrine or being deceived?

If you can't tell by now, I am trying to synthesize everyone's ideas together. Maybe it's the Retriever in me. But I am trying to look at each brother or sister's unique perspective and calling and see how it can all work together. Some say Gog and Magog will happen soon. Some say that it can't happen until after the abomination. Some feel strongly that "the temple of God" is not the rebuilt temple. Some feel strongly that any animal sacrifice would be an abomination. Some feel strongly that these conspiracy theories are very important. As the body of Christ, I really think we need to listen to each other. The more I hear about what everyone thinks is important, like the conversation on the other thread this morning about Gog and Magog, the more I think the interpretation I am proposing makes more and more sense. Whether these views are always expressed in love is for the Lord to deal with

What I am seeing right now is that some watchmen here have been told to dig a hole in the wall like Ezekiel was told in chapter 8 (please read chapters 8 and 9 of Ezekiel!). These watchmen have begun to look at the abominations taking place in secret, and even greater abominations continue to come forward than were previously known, just like the Lord told Ezekiel. These watchmen believe all will be made public soon and our country will be fractured. We see in Ezekiel that the abominations take place before the young men are sealed on their foreheads.

Also what I am seeing in 2 Thes and Zeph 1 about the "day of the Lord" seems to support the interpretation that the "he" is Messiah who was cut off in the middle of the 70th week and also THE BODY OF MESSIAH will be taken in the middle of the week as well, although our sacrifice is a living sacrifice that is simply hidden away in heaven in order to cease on earth.

I fully admit I could be wrong, and it's no skin off my back if I am. The Lord knows I am His, and He will judge the thoughts and intentions of my heart regardless of whether I am right or wrong. But I have prayed earnestly for understanding, and I do feel like the Lord continues to confirm this to me like in the conversation on the embassy thread this morning. I will share what I feel like I have been shown in Zephaniah soon, and after that I will leave this alone again unless I feel like the Lord shows me something else or someone has a question. There is so much in the Connor book that I haven't shared yet and would be happy to if anyone wants to know more. But if you see anyone proclaiming to be God soon or any secret abominations being made public, let's talk!

PS. I love that you added "but one day will be so"!

\

When was the last time in context, that a 'he' was referred to prior to 9:27? Wasn't it the beginning of 9:26b? "The people of the ruler who will come... "

yardstick
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Posts: 1,527

Timelines Overview Mar 5, 2018 17:48:01 GMT -6 witness1 likes this

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Post by yardstick on Mar 5, 2018 17:48:01 GMT -6

Mar 2, 2018 15:22:18 GMT -6 kjs said:

Mar 2, 2018 10:31:03 GMT -6 barbiosheepgirl said:

But what is it that we really understand in CONTEXT of Daniel 9? He is praying for mercy because he sees this vision and Gabriel answers him with a decree for the people and the city. We have the luxery to know the people rejected Christ and are not following the new covenant of Christ. So, Gabriel told them destruction would come upon them, and according to the Gospel account by 3 people, we see who destroys the temple, but an army. And Jesus Himself is telling the disciples that this temple would not have one stone upon another. Literal destruction of the temple predicted by Jesus, and supported by the decree made to Daniel. If I am to use hermeneutics to not add anything, and take for face value what we know now (70 AD temple destruction happened), then I am to be satisfied by these verses that the 70 weeks decree is fulfilled in its entirety.

barbiosheepgirl

I would agree with you IF the destruction of the temple (and city) was ONLY predicted to happen AFTER the 62 weeks......

Read it again:

25 “So you must know and gain wisdom about this: There will be seven weeks from the moment the word went out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until a leader is anointed. And for sixty-two weeks the city will be rebuilt with a courtyard and a moat. But in difficult times, 26 after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one will be eliminated. No one will support him. The army of a future leader will destroy the city and the sanctuary. His end will come in a flood, but devastations will be decreed until the end of the war."

IF the prophecy ended right here -- I would not have a problem and would support your contention......

BUT -- the prophecy DOES NOT end here ..........

27 "For one week, he will make a strong covenant with many people. For a half-week, he will stop both sacrifices and offerings. In their place will be the desolating monstrosities until the decreed destruction sweeps over the devastator.”

THIS last week verse (or seven years) -- still needs accounted for.....

Granted it does NOT say the temple (nor city) are rebuilt --- but if you assume the ritual sacrifices are started up at some point -- some temple (or at least tent) needs to be in place as well.....

No there is a missing seven year period that has to be accounted for -- based on simply reading the scriptures....

70AD Temple destruction-- simply PROVES the prophecy up to the point of "AFTER 62 weeks" .....

I am pretty sure Titus Caesar's (who had the city of Jerusalem beseiged in 70AD) end did not come in a flood? Also, Jerusalem was never completely destroyed. The walls were torn down, but many of the towers were left standing.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(AD_70)

witness1
Berean

Posts: 703

Timelines Overview Mar 5, 2018 18:12:31 GMT -6 mike likes this

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Post by witness1 on Mar 5, 2018 18:12:31 GMT -6

Mar 5, 2018 17:21:18 GMT -6 yardstick said:

Feb 26, 2018 15:14:20 GMT -6 witness1 said:

Thanks for weighing in kjs . So it seems we are in agreement that the 70th week started but was placed on hold after the crucifixion. Yay! We also believe that all 6 purposes have not been fulfilled. Even if we differ on how many exactly have been fulfilled, there are some still future. Yay again!

Our disagreement lies in whether verse 9:27a is about the crucifixion or the antichrist stopping sacrifices.

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease"

I think you have an excellent point that Messiah is referred to as "Anointed" in this passage and that 9:27b is not about Messiah. (I was definitely wrong about that before which is why I am grateful for the discussion!) But in 9:27a we still just have that darn "he". I feel like I would agree with you if it said, "the prince will cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease" without it saying "the anointed prince". But we don't see that. Just "he", which could either refer to the anointed prince or the other prince.

So then my question is... since we only have a "he" without knowing whether "he" is anointed or not... what makes sense with everything else we are seeing in the world right now? What fits the theme of scripture, the day counts in Revelation, and the references to "the day of the Lord" in 2 Thes and Zeph 1? What fits with the nuggets of truth that individual watchmen have gleaned from scripture (which don't seem to fit with each other)? What fits with the dreams many have been given with warnings about not falling prey to false doctrine or being deceived?

If you can't tell by now, I am trying to synthesize everyone's ideas together. Maybe it's the Retriever in me. But I am trying to look at each brother or sister's unique perspective and calling and see how it can all work together. Some say Gog and Magog will happen soon. Some say that it can't happen until after the abomination. Some feel strongly that "the temple of God" is not the rebuilt temple. Some feel strongly that any animal sacrifice would be an abomination. Some feel strongly that these conspiracy theories are very important. As the body of Christ, I really think we need to listen to each other. The more I hear about what everyone thinks is important, like the conversation on the other thread this morning about Gog and Magog, the more I think the interpretation I am proposing makes more and more sense. Whether these views are always expressed in love is for the Lord to deal with

What I am seeing right now is that some watchmen here have been told to dig a hole in the wall like Ezekiel was told in chapter 8 (please read chapters 8 and 9 of Ezekiel!). These watchmen have begun to look at the abominations taking place in secret, and even greater abominations continue to come forward than were previously known, just like the Lord told Ezekiel. These watchmen believe all will be made public soon and our country will be fractured. We see in Ezekiel that the abominations take place before the young men are sealed on their foreheads.

Also what I am seeing in 2 Thes and Zeph 1 about the "day of the Lord" seems to support the interpretation that the "he" is Messiah who was cut off in the middle of the 70th week and also THE BODY OF MESSIAH will be taken in the middle of the week as well, although our sacrifice is a living sacrifice that is simply hidden away in heaven in order to cease on earth.

I fully admit I could be wrong, and it's no skin off my back if I am. The Lord knows I am His, and He will judge the thoughts and intentions of my heart regardless of whether I am right or wrong. But I have prayed earnestly for understanding, and I do feel like the Lord continues to confirm this to me like in the conversation on the embassy thread this morning. I will share what I feel like I have been shown in Zephaniah soon, and after that I will leave this alone again unless I feel like the Lord shows me something else or someone has a question. There is so much in the Connor book that I haven't shared yet and would be happy to if anyone wants to know more. But if you see anyone proclaiming to be God soon or any secret abominations being made public, let's talk!

PS. I love that you added "but one day will be so"!

\

When was the last time in context, that a 'he' was referred to prior to 9:27? Wasn't it the beginning of 9:26b? "The people of the ruler who will come... "

Yes, although the first time I came across the idea that the "he" could be the Messiah, it was based on the suggestion that the "he" should not refer to an antecedent in a prepositional phrase. This is debated amongst various grammar experts though... my own research says people argue both sides.

watchfortheday.org/whoishe.html

barbiosheepgirl
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For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. Rom 8:19

Posts: 960

Timelines Overview Mar 5, 2018 22:50:57 GMT -6

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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Mar 5, 2018 22:50:57 GMT -6

Stick, this translation that is being used by kjs is odd to me. And yes, while the city wasn't "destoyed" the Jews lost it and the temple practices ceased

The translation kjs is using here 27 "For one week, he will make a strong covenant with many people. For a half-week, he will stop both sacrifices and offerings. In their place will be the desolating monstrosities until the decreed destruction sweeps over the devastator.”

King James: And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate (I dont care if this 'he' is a single person not being Jesus, in fact the more I go over this it the 'he' seems part of Daniel's people if we continue in this verse. Anyone making a sacrifice to God is in the wrong, now that Christ died and rose..my point is ANY sacrifice done to appease God is no longer needed. So it can be a person doing this, but God is not going to be happy about it), even until the consummation, and that determined (judgement decreed to) shall be poured upon the desolate (the people that Daniel was praying for who end up missing the point of the real Sacrifice).

When I read kjs version presented, it reads that destruction is going to sweep over the devastator..as if God is punishing someone for doing abominable sacrifices (like with pigs, unclean animals or something). And God destroys this implied anti-christ...But Christ is the THE Sacrifice after the 69th week. No more Sacrifice or grain offering is needed even until the end of the Millenial and beyond...even after the Rapture Christ's Covenant is Firm and to the End (so if a 3rd temple is built this whole prophecy will repeat).

In King James this reads to me as the Lord pouring out judgement upon the desolate (Time and time again He spread out His hand to these unrepentant people). Desolate peoples who are the ones that are the subject of the Decree. A decree is made to a Daniel's people to usher in the Saviour and they instead killed Him and kept going with their own sacrifice and grain offering (which since we have the New Covenant these material sacrifices are now abominations to God).

Truly I am at a loss for at least explaining 3.5 years. I would have to look at events that happened after His resurrection. The destruction of the physical temple does not have to come immediately. It can come after a period of warning by the disciples preaching which, hmm. We could go to Acts 6 and 7..Stephen makes some serious warning about the destruction to come.
Acts 6:8And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people.
9But some men from what was called the Synagogue of the Freedmen, including both Cyrenians and Alexandrians, and some from Cilicia and Asia, rose up and argued with Stephen.
10But they were unable to cope with the wisdom and the Spirit with which he was speaking.
11Then they secretly induced men to say, “We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses and against God.”
12And they stirred up the people, the elders and the scribes, and they came up to him and dragged him away and brought him before the Council.
13They put forward false witnesses who said, “This man incessantly speaks against this holy place and the Law;
14for we have heard him say that this Nazarene, Jesus, will destroy this place and alter the customs which Moses handed down to us.”
15And fixing their gaze on him, all who were sitting in the Council saw his face like the face of an angel.
And then we have Stephen's not denying his position and then he goes on and on in Acts 7...Stephen pulls scripture and prophecy from their very Books. Lays out the case yet they stone him and reject the message. I dont know what year that was. My Bible notes says Luke wrote Acts in about 63 AD... but was this event just a few years after the Resurrection?

Didnt the Romans take over Jerusalem and prevented the Jews from coming into the city within that timeframe from 70 AD to 600AD and then some? It got taken over by Muslims eventually? and on we go until we get to 1948...

like witness1 the last thing I want to do is get in a fight. We have plenty of day counts in Revelation that dont have to coincide with Dan 9:27 There is enough by John to tell us what's up. There are other specific day count events in parts of Daniel that are not vague, and can read as dual prophecy just as well. My heart and mind are not seeing this verse 27 as partially unfulfilled but rather a very specific warning to all about temple idol worship and sacrifice. That is where I am leaving it for now.

Last Edit: Mar 5, 2018 22:54:02 GMT -6 by barbiosheepgirl

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Thes 5:9 KJV

klb Truth Seeker Posts: 197	Timelines Overview Mar 6, 2018 7:36:42 GMT -6 mike, witness1, and 1 more like this Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by klb on Mar 6, 2018 7:36:42 GMT -6 witness1 For what it's worth, I don't think you've been divisive at all. In fact, I believe that you've been more than gracious in all of your posts and responses.

kjs
Lamplighter

...God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us

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Timelines Overview Mar 6, 2018 8:23:06 GMT -6 witness1 likes this

Quote

Post by kjs on Mar 6, 2018 8:23:06 GMT -6

Mar 5, 2018 17:48:01 GMT -6 yardstick said:

Mar 2, 2018 15:22:18 GMT -6 kjs said:

I am pretty sure Titus Caesar's (who had the city of Jerusalem beseiged in 70AD) end did not come in a flood? Also, Jerusalem was never completely destroyed. The walls were torn down, but many of the towers were left standing.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(AD_70)

www.ritmeyer.com/2013/07/06/evidence-for-the-destruction-of-jerusalem-in-70ad/

The above article is interesting and describes how the city was destroyed....

Here is one key phrase from article .....

according to Josephus’s own account, he appears to have played a role as a negotiator with the defenders during the Siege of Jerusalem in 70. After a desperate struggle, the Temple was destroyed, followed by the rest of Jerusalem. Despite the entreaties of Josephus to spare the city, the rebels, as he called them, refused to give up the city and rather fought to the end. Many people died of famine and others, who wanted to save their lives by surrendering to the Romans, were killed by their fellow fighters.

I was not there -- so could not say -- but while it does seem like some buildings remain standing -- the destruction of all those dwellers who remained within the city -- seems to suggest there was no a city remaining.....

Last Edit: Mar 6, 2018 8:24:21 GMT -6 by kjs