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Post by witness1 on Feb 26, 2018 20:00:53 GMT -6
This is why I love this group! In looking for an answer to fitz’s question, I came upon a fascinating idea that the “he” may not even be there, which is exactly what kjs has been saying... that it is implied based on the endings of other words (I think... correct me if I’m wrong). Check out this Septuagint translation: “And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.” Daniel 9:27 LXX Interlinear www.biblestudytools.com/lxx/daniel/9.htmlWow. That certainly changes things up a bit! I came across this idea here if you’d like to look at it on your own: www.google.com/amp/s/redmoonrapture.wordpress.com/2017/11/18/the-covenant-with-many-daniel-927/amp/I haven’t finished reading/studying this yet but will report back. She does a great job of presenting and discussing the various options in a systematic way if you’re interested in studying alternative views. EDIT: I still recommend this article, but my friend who speaks Hebrew says there is definitely a “he” there, although it isn’t clear who the “he” is. |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Feb 26, 2018 20:34:04 GMT -6
kjs , fitz, witness1 I will say OK to kjs on the implied unannointed he..but with this manifestation: Has anyone come to think that this "unannointed" 'he' is still very correct in that the lawless one, the sin nature of ourselves, those that were beholden to kill Christ, did so because they were against-Christ, that lawlessness that God refers to all over the OT and that He extended His arm to the very people who reject him..
Isaiah 65:I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious (lawless) people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;
Acts 2:But God knew what would happen, and his prearranged plan was carried out when Jesus was betrayed. With the help of lawless Gentiles, you nailed him to a cross and killed him.
Daniel 9:27 “And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he (those darn lawless rebellious people, spitually satan behind the scenes)) will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering;
It was dual effort...Christ fulfilling Sacrifice, lawless ones putting and end to that Sacrifice by killing Him. Spiritual fulfillment played out in the physical actions of real people..Shouldnt we remember what are battle is? Against the principalities.. Eph 6 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness (lawlessness) in the heavenly places.So after reading these latest posts I still feel we are at minimum with 3.5 years to be fulfilled, not 7. Witness1 I am in agreement with you on the adding of the times in Revelation..
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Post by witness1 on Feb 26, 2018 21:29:15 GMT -6
This is an interesting point from the article above:
The Holy Covenant
While I believe that Daniel 11:29-35 was fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes historically, it seems possible that the antichrist may also be in view as a type of dual fulfillment in this passage. Starting in verse 36 there is really no debate that the antichrist himself is in view. What may be happening here is a type of dramatic fade from one character to the next (as occurs when describing a literal king fading into a description of satan in both Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28):
“At the time appointed he shall return and come into the south, but it shall not be this time as it was before. For ships of Kittim shall come against him, and he shall be afraid and withdraw, and shall turn back and be enraged and take action against the holy covenant. He shall turn back and pay attention to those who forsake the holy covenant. Forces from him shall appear and profane the temple and fortress, and shall take away the regular burnt offering. And they shall set up the abomination that makes desolate. He shall seduce with flattery those who violate the covenant, but the people who know their God shall stand firm and take action. And the wise among the people shall make many understand, though for some days they shall stumble by sword and flame, by captivity and plunder. When they stumble, they shall receive a little help. And many shall join themselves to them with flattery, and some of the wise shall stumble, so that they may be refined, purified, and made white, until the time of the end, for it still awaits the appointed time. “And the king shall do as he wills. He shall exalt himself and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak astonishing things against the God of gods. He shall prosper till the indignation is accomplished; for what is decreed shall be done. Daniel 11:29-36 ESV
If this passage describes the antichrist, it would seem to support the view that the covenant that is confirmed with Daniel’s holy people in 9:27 is indeed a “holy covenant” with God. This passage describes those who know their God as standing firm, while those who rebel against God would seem to violate or forsake the covenant.
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Post by witness1 on Feb 26, 2018 21:33:27 GMT -6
I am not sure if I'm following you barbiosheepgirl. Are you saying the "he" has dual fulfillment in the anointed one and the un-anointed one? Interesting idea. |
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Post by grandpaskitzo on Feb 26, 2018 21:41:13 GMT -6
Isn't it true that many prophecies have both a near and far fulfillment? It’s probably best understood as both a physical and a spiritual fulfillment. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2018 0:22:49 GMT -6
I really appreciate your search for the truth behind the antichrist or the "he".
But I also understand the frustration of many, when it comes to discussions and they see the thread derailing and loosing track.
I know that many points are interweaved with each other, but a bit more structure would help all of us and especially the guests to keep track of this topic.
Please bear in mind, that this here is about the timelines and NOT about the AC.
There are lots of other threads around fitting way better.
Could the mods please split off this discussion and move it to an appropriate place?
Thanx.
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Post by witness1 on Feb 28, 2018 5:30:12 GMT -6
You're right @stephan. I should have posted it elsewhere instead of going with the flow.
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Post by mike on Feb 28, 2018 6:49:30 GMT -6
@stephan, sorry about that, you're right - I moved it to the Mark of the Beast section titled " Anti-Christ" for those who wish to continue that dialogue |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Mar 2, 2018 10:31:03 GMT -6
So, to get back to the timeline. I was looking at the 3 Gospel accounts that refer to this Daniel event
Matt 24:15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mark 13:14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: 15And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: 16And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
Luke 21:20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
I am stopping at the same place for each of these authors. I am using the same English translation. The reason for this answer by Jesus was because the apostles were asking about the temple:
Matt 24:1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be?
Mark:1And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here! 2And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, 4Tell us, when shall these things be?
Luke:5And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, 6As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
7And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be?
The next question the disciples ask is about what sign that it is fulfilled, and time of the end...
Matt 24:3...and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Mark:13: 3...and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
Luke: 21:7...and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
So, in regards to the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD, it sure seems like it was talked about by these three authors. We get one interesting slant from Luke. He is describing an army encompassing...this is not sounding like a single person, and, it doesn't say anything about a sacrifice being made by this army. Matthew and Mark make reference of the actual Daniel verse.
But what is it that we really understand in CONTEXT of Daniel 9? He is praying for mercy because he sees this vision and Gabriel answers him with a decree for the people and the city. We have the luxery to know the people rejected Christ and are not following the new covenant of Christ. So, Gabriel told them destruction would come upon them, and according to the Gospel account by 3 people, we see who destroys the temple, but an army. And Jesus Himself is telling the disciples that this temple would not have one stone upon another. Literal destruction of the temple predicted by Jesus, and supported by the decree made to Daniel. If I am to use hermeneutics to not add anything, and take for face value what we know now (70 AD temple destruction happened), then I am to be satisfied by these verses that the 70 weeks decree is fulfilled in its entirety.
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Post by witness1 on Mar 2, 2018 12:23:11 GMT -6
I definitely think the Luke passage has been fulfilled. The others may have been fulfilled or they may have a second fulfillment.
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Post by kjs on Mar 2, 2018 15:22:18 GMT -6
But what is it that we really understand in CONTEXT of Daniel 9? He is praying for mercy because he sees this vision and Gabriel answers him with a decree for the people and the city. We have the luxery to know the people rejected Christ and are not following the new covenant of Christ. So, Gabriel told them destruction would come upon them, and according to the Gospel account by 3 people, we see who destroys the temple, but an army. And Jesus Himself is telling the disciples that this temple would not have one stone upon another. Literal destruction of the temple predicted by Jesus, and supported by the decree made to Daniel. If I am to use hermeneutics to not add anything, and take for face value what we know now (70 AD temple destruction happened), then I am to be satisfied by these verses that the 70 weeks decree is fulfilled in its entirety.
I would agree with you IF the destruction of the temple (and city) was ONLY predicted to happen AFTER the 62 weeks...... Read it again: 25 “So you must know and gain wisdom about this: There will be seven weeks from the moment the word went out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until a leader is anointed. And for sixty-two weeks the city will be rebuilt with a courtyard and a moat. But in difficult times, 26 after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one will be eliminated. No one will support him. The army of a future leader will destroy the city and the sanctuary. His end will come in a flood, but devastations will be decreed until the end of the war." IF the prophecy ended right here -- I would not have a problem and would support your contention...... BUT -- the prophecy DOES NOT end here .......... 27 "For one week, he will make a strong covenant with many people. For a half-week, he will stop both sacrifices and offerings. In their place will be the desolating monstrosities until the decreed destruction sweeps over the devastator.” THIS last week verse (or seven years) -- still needs accounted for..... Granted it does NOT say the temple (nor city) are rebuilt --- but if you assume the ritual sacrifices are started up at some point -- some temple (or at least tent) needs to be in place as well..... No there is a missing seven year period that has to be accounted for -- based on simply reading the scriptures.... 70AD Temple destruction-- simply PROVES the prophecy up to the point of "AFTER 62 weeks" ..... |
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Post by cwood85 on Mar 2, 2018 20:32:10 GMT -6
kjs What translation do you use?
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Post by Natalie on Mar 2, 2018 21:29:07 GMT -6
I'm with KJS -- keeping the verses in order there is still a week left after the destruction of the city and temple. Wouldn't you have to manipulate verses for it to say something else?
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Post by davewatchman on Mar 3, 2018 9:05:54 GMT -6
kjs What translation do you use? I wondered that too. Common English Bible (CEB). The translation doesn't bother me too much. What bothers me is taking sides and risking becoming a clanging bell or a noisy gong. If i use the 457BC decree, the 7 weeks and 62 weeks count from that year and complete right before the year 27AD when Jesus went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day and read from the Isaiah scroll. “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.” I hope they can rewind this scene, i would loved to have been a fly on the wall there. I like the translations of Daniel 9 that have the "AND" in between the 7 and 62. Like KJV or NIV, it just reads better to me. And for the Newton theory. Either way it's read, it still reads true. It's like embedded within the Script is a provision for two comings of Messiah a Primary coming, "AND" a Secondary coming. I'm a student of a nice guy from Ohio named Larry Wilson. His work on the Jubilee Calendar is genius in my opinion. I took a screenshot of a big PDF he made that can really help to visualize the 7 and the 62 weeks. The first "seven" can be seen here starting from the top left and beginning with 457BC. Then one can almost count each one of the 62 "sevens" with the mouse pointer which will culminate just before 27AD. Additional confirmation can be found in records of the moon phase where Passover was celebrated by Jesus and the disciples in 30AD, right in the middle of the week. All ten of the "sevens" begin at the top, and end at the bottom. 70 weeks of 490 years that are 10 Jubilee cycles of 49 years. 49+49+49+49+49+49+49+49+49+49=490  Peaceful Sabbath. |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Mar 3, 2018 22:50:35 GMT -6
thanks davewatchman I wanted to ask some here what about verse 9:26? Because at minimum, we have an unaccounted roughly 3 1/2 years because John the Baptist witnessed the annointing of Jesus at the baptism of Jesus which was roughly 3 years prior to his crucifixion... 26“Then after the sixty-two weeks (we are in the 70th then) the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing,
27“And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering (yes killing Jesus fulfills the Law and no more sacrifice and grain offering is needed)
26...and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary (the destruction happened in 70AD)
27...and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.” (who is this one? we do know the one of them is the one that the decree is upon...)I just cant get past these first parts of each 26 and 27.. It to me reads like when Jesus was walking around in the flesh and up to His crucifixion. And because of the denial of the New Covenant, the actual temple was destroyed. the 'he' could be the antichrist spirit within the peoples, or the 'he' is the people of Judah who killed Jesus. I can suggest that because there is no definite person declared here in Hebrew.
kjs , natalie Isnt this crazy? All of us sincerely wanting to know the mystery of this and yet we are not in 100% agreement. Why is that? This will be one of my last posts on this because I do not want it to become a fight. I do think the lessons here are what are our English translations doing? There is much lost or assumed when going from Hebrew to english...espcially on pronouns, but also word order and subject verb object word order that differs in the old Hebrew. But has not man done this merry go round on this passage for over 1900 years? The thread is about Timeline so I dont want to derail the thread...
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