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Post by venge on May 31, 2019 10:24:45 GMT -6
Perhaps someone can find commentaries on early church fathers on the apostasia: Eusebius Josephus Anyone early and see what they were taught
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Post by stormyknight on May 31, 2019 10:34:41 GMT -6
Ok, so I found this website: www.lexilogos.com/english/greek_ancient_dictionary.htmApostasia came up with several definitions, but nothing that hasn't been posted already ἀπο-στα^σία , ἡ, late form for ἀπόστασις, A.defection, revolt, v.l. in D.H.7.1, J.Vit.10, Plu.Galb.1; esp. in religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy, LXX Jo.22.22, 2 Ep.Th.2.3. 2. departure, disappearance, Olymp. in Mete.320.2. 3. distinguishing, c. gen., Elias in Cat.119.7. 4. distance, Archim.Aren.1.5. Henry George Liddell. Robert Scott. A Greek-English Lexicon. revised and augmented throughout by. Sir Henry Stuart Jones. with the assistance of. Roderick McKenzie. Oxford. Clarendon Press. 1940
ἀποστασία late form of ἀπόστασις defection, Plut.
Liddell and Scott. An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon. Oxford. Clarendon Press. 1889.
I find it interesting that both have the definition "defection", but the first points toward a rebellion against God. Could Paul have meant, if this refers to the rapture, that it is a defection from the world? Babylon?
"Then I heard another voice from heaven say: “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins or contract any of her plagues." Rev. 18:4
"Come out of her" can also be translated "Come out from among". Would that not also denote a defection of sorts?
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Post by Gary on May 31, 2019 11:06:29 GMT -6
This may be a dumb question, but did they not make dictionaries way back then? Is there no way to know what was meant when it was written? Definitions change, so I'm just wondering. That's a good question. I'm studying it more myself. Reading through some exhilarating material like Galba by Plutarch and some other Greek sources that used the word. It looks like both the Classical Greek (pre-NT) and Patristic Greek writers (post-NT) assigned a varied meaning to the word and lexicons on both confirm this. It's very similar to our English word "departure," where what is departed from depends entirely on context. It seems that "withdrawal" or "secession" might be an equally applicable translation. There are numerous examples from Classical Greek that Kurschner and others cite to prove the "apostasy" theory, but the evidence doesn't seem to back this up. In fact, "apostasy" seems to be plainly wrong, because apostasy has a very specific, technical meaning of religious defection. The word is most often used of political separations, slave rebellions, etc. There are a few instances of spatial departure. And there are a few of religious defection, but the word's use in terms of societal or religious defection is always accompanied by a clarifying statement. For instance, we see the same with the word's verb counterpart ἀφίστημι. "Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will *depart* from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons..." - 1 Tim. 4:1 If these words had inherent religious connotation, there would be no need for clarification: "from the faith." Interestingly, apostasia, a feminine noun, has a neuter nounal counterpart apostasion, which is used for divorce (with context) and thus carries the implication of separation. From all that I can gather, apostasia simply means "departure"—religiously, politically, militarily, spatially, or otherwise. However, it often (though not always), carries a negative connotation, so might be better understood as "withdrawal" or "separation". The rapture and apostasy are both departures/withdrawals/separations—one from the world, the other from a religion. Dr. Woods, Thomas Ice, and others do a great job of breaking down the context of 2 Thess. 2 to show it's naturally speaking about the rapture. In fact, that's the thematic reason given: "Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and ***our being gathered together to him***" Whether you're pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib, the Church's gathering to Christ is the rapture and that's the topic. The single most important contextual clue is that in both of Paul's letters to the Thessalonians he doesn't mention religious apostasy at all. However, the rapture is dealt with extensively (e.g., 1 Thess. 4-5; 2 Thess. 2). In 1 Thessalonians, Paul describes the rapture (1 Thess. 4) before he describes the DoTL (1 Thess. 5) and he connects the two by reminding the readers that the DoTL comes like a thief on those who do not escape, *but not to us*.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2020 15:56:52 GMT -6
This was very enlightening! I am a bit embarrassed to have brought it up when such an appropriate thread existed.
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