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Post by sog on May 6, 2019 20:21:14 GMT -6
jamie, I thought I just made that clear that Mattew 13 doesn’t. But read the rest of it’s uses, especially in the NT, does. The link above shows other scripture use of leaven in relation to destroying Christianity.
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Post by Natalie on May 6, 2019 20:42:20 GMT -6
Here's how I have heard this group of parables:
During the time between His first coming and Second coming, the kingdom of heaven is growing through the church. 1st parable about the kingdom was the wheat and the tares. In the church you have true followers (wheat) and unbelievers (tares). It will all get sorted out in the end. 2nd parable is the mustard seed and the birds. The church will grow just as that tiny mustard seed does, but the birds are difficulties that come along. 3rd parable the leaven. It takes awhile for leaven to work, just like sin can be slow growing. We must guard our hearts and our churches.
I will admit that I do not understand parables two and three. This is just a teaching I heard on these three "kingdom" parables. I don't know if it is right, but seeing them this way links them all together. As the church grows we will have unbelievers (tares), difficulties (birds), and sin issues (leaven)
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Post by mike on May 7, 2019 20:53:36 GMT -6
Those following this thread should note that despite our best efforts to have members be courteous to each other demonstrating the love of Christ, Jamie was asked to "tone down" his responses to other brothers and sisters. As you may see he decided to delete all of his posts.
Unless a specific post was quoted the content may jump around a little due to the deletions.
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Post by venge on May 9, 2019 8:55:59 GMT -6
Those following this thread should note that despite our best efforts to have members be courteous to each other demonstrating the love of Christ, Jamie was asked to "tone down" his responses to other brothers and sisters. As you may see he decided to delete all of his posts. Unless a specific post was quoted the content may jump around a little due to the deletions. Hope he comes back. Conversations without different views sound like: Rogers says: Well I think - blah blah blah. Peter says: Yeah me too. Susan says: Yep. I agree. We need different views!!! Not to get spun around, and not to digest the wrong meat, but for proper dialogue to seek truth and to challenge ourselves in searching for the truth. One person is better at exhortation then another, one is better at prophecy then another and one women can cook better then another lol. |
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Post by sawdy on May 9, 2019 14:12:08 GMT -6
We need different views!!! Not to get spun around, and not to digest the wrong meat, but for proper dialogue to seek truth and to challenge ourselves in searching for the truth. One person is better at exhortation then another, one is better at prophecy then another and one women can cook better then another lol. I'll let you know if I am a "better cook" when I figure out which is the best blueberry muffin recipe. I am trying my fourth batch this week. 🤔 |
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Post by mike on May 9, 2019 14:51:00 GMT -6
We need different views!!! Not to get spun around, and not to digest the wrong meat, but for proper dialogue to seek truth and to challenge ourselves in searching for the truth. One person is better at exhortation then another, one is better at prophecy then another and one women can cook better then another lol. I'll let you know if I am a "better cook" when I figure out which is the best blueberry muffin recipe. I am trying my fourth batch this week. 🤔 can you freeze some and drop ship them  |
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Post by Natalie on May 9, 2019 14:52:27 GMT -6
I volunteer to be a test taster also.  |
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Post by Gary on May 29, 2019 21:19:18 GMT -6
I just finished reading an excellent little booklet on this topic from Dr. Andy Woods. I've leaned towards the spatial departure view, but recognize both sides have had some interesting arguments, but Woods' case is impeccable imho. 2 Thess. 2:3 = the rapture. It's just $3.66 if anyone is interested: www.amazon.com/dp/1945774207 |
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Post by venge on May 30, 2019 7:18:32 GMT -6
I just finished reading an excellent little booklet on this topic from Dr. Andy Woods. I've leaned towards the spatial departure view, but recognize both sides have had some interesting arguments, but Woods' case is impeccable imho. 2 Thess. 2:3 = the rapture. It's just $3.66 if anyone is interested: www.amazon.com/dp/1945774207Well, Gary don’t leave me waiting...does he decide spiritual or physical lol I’m guessing physical. |
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Post by venge on May 30, 2019 7:32:15 GMT -6
Nvm
I went to the link and read comments. I came across this one from a guy who does not agree:
Woods writes: “The noun, apostasia, can refer to a physical departure.”
Woods also writes: “Although the Greek noun apostasia can refer to a doctrinal departure in Acts 21:21, this noun is not a technical word meaning a word that always means the same thing everywhere it is used.”
Woods also writes: “Only by examining how this word is used in it’s immediate context will determine what the departure is from, whether it be a spiritual or physical departure.”
Woods also writes: “In actuality, the Greek noun apostasia, can in some contexts refer to a physical departure.”
Woods also writes: “It is also worth considering that while apostasia is used in Second Thessalonians 2:3a, apostasion represents a nearly identical and highly and highly related noun.”
Woods also writes: “As previously mentioned the noun apostasia is only mentioned twice in the Greek New Testament (Acts 21:21; 2 Thess. 2:3a). However, the verbal form aphistēmi is found 15 times in the New Testament. Interestingly, only three times does that verb aphistēmi mean a spiritual departure.”
Woods also writes: “What all these usages demonstrate is that both the noun apostasia and the verb aphistēmi can both be used to depict either spiritual departures or physical departures.”
No, that’s not what it demonstrates. The only thing which has been demonstrated is that “aphistēmi” can be used to depict either spiritual departures or physical departures. What’s the truth about the use of “apostasia” in Scripture?
There is only ONE other place in the NT where "apostasia" is used, and it's Acts 21:21:
Acts 21:21- "And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake ("apostasia") Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs."
Furthermore, in the 4 times in which "apostasia" is used in the Septuagint, it refers to rebellion every time:
Joshua 22:22- "The Lord God of gods, the Lord God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it in transgression against the Lord by apostasy ("apostasia")..."
2 Chron 29:19- "Moreover all the vessels, which king Ahaz in his reign did cast away in his apostasy ("apostasia") have we prepared and sanctified, and, behold, they are before the altar of the Lord."
2 Chron 33:19- "His prayer also, and how God was intreated of him, and all his sin, and his apostasy ("apostasia"), and the places wherein he built high places, and set up groves and graven images, before he was humWoods writes: “When Paul was with them, about 6 months to a year later, he had taught them that they would be raptured to heaven prior to the tribulation period (1 Thess 1:10; 4:13-18).”
Dr. Woods is making assumptions. 1 Thess 4 doesn’t give the timing of the rapture in relation to the trib. Paul was comforting the Thessalonians, who were worried that they wouldn’t see their dearly departed, believing loved ones again (1 Thess 4:13). Paul comforted them by letting them know that their loved ones would indeed be resurrected, and then join us in being raptured. But again, no timing is given, and the tribulation isn’t mentioned or described. The “sorrow” was regarding those who were already “asleep”, and the “comfort” wasn’t regarding whether or not the church would be persecuted.
Woods writes: “What we are focused on here is the first item that Paul mentions as to why his audience was not yet in the Day of the Lord, or the tribulation period.”
Despite the widespread popularity of this teaching, Woods’ statement is patently false, as there is no Scripture which supports the notion that the “Day of the Lord” (DoTL) includes the tribulation period. Neither was it taught prior to the mid-19th century. What does Scripture actually say?
Matthew 24:29- "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"
Here, The Lord tells us that the heavenly signs follow the tribulation. Then Peter (in quoting Joel 2:31), tells us that the DoTL follows the heavenly signs:
Acts 2:20- "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE that great and notable day of the Lord come:"
bled: behold, they are written among the sayings of the seers."
Jer 2:19- "Thine own wickedness shall correct thee, and thy backslidings ("apostasia") shall reprove thee: know therefore and see that it is an evil thing and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the Lord thy God, and that my fear is not in thee, saith the Lord God of hosts
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Post by Gary on May 30, 2019 9:54:18 GMT -6
It's a worthwhile read. No doubt there is disagreement, which is why I shared this to begin with, so others can hear both sides. The biggest proponent of a "falling away" translation is Dr. Alan Kurschner, but I've studied his material in depth and find it unconvincing, and his arguments filled with vitriol toward his opponents (that's always a huge spiritual red flag to me). His articles are filled with personal attacks on pre-trib Christians and a smugness unbecoming of a disciple.
The comment though doesn't do justice to the full breadth of arguments on this word and 2 Thess. 2.
The main argument against a spatial departure view depends entirely on apostasia being a technical word, universally referring to spiritual defection. With only two uses of the word in the NT, and four in the LXX, it's not possible to make that determination since the word itself is not formed from anything related to spiritual defection. It's the nounal form of aphístēmi, and literally means "a standing away from." Aphístēmi has the same word origin, and as the verbal form means "to stand away from." It is consistently translated "leave/depart."
In the four usages in the LXX and the use in Acts 21:21 you could just as easily use "departure" without losing meaning, since English "departure" carries a similar range of meaning (you can depart from a religion, an airport, a house, a teaching, etc). No doubt that's why Bibles, both Latin and English, consistently translated apostasia as "departure" until the Roman Catholic Rheims NT came out in 1582. The Catholic translators were theologically motivated to change "departure"—the translation used for 1,500 years—to "rebellion", in order to label the recent Protestant Reformation as a movement of apostates who had rebelled/fallen away from Rome. The KJV then did the same thing in reverse.
Both sides make assumptions. Everyone does that, including you and me both. It comes down to which assumptions are correct.
Blessings.
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Post by kjs on May 30, 2019 11:45:09 GMT -6
I enjoy reading both sides of this debate ....
However the "clincher" for me is The definite article "THE" is the word BEFORE "Apostasia"
Here is how a learning website defines "THE"
"We use the definite article in front of a noun when we believe the listener/reader knows exactly what we are referring to: because there is only one"
Now, we know that Apostle Paul taught the people in Thessaloniki that the rapture was an event (where the dead in Christ and the Still Alive in Christ -- would join Jesus Christ in the air).
His phraseology placed the word "THE" in front of the word "Apostasia"
If this word is supposed to mean "departure" -- having The in front of it -- simply making it "THE DEPARTURE" --- "with the only one event -- being meeting Jesus in the air"
However, IF the word is supposed to mean "Falling Away" -- then placing the word in front of it -- The Falling Away --- does not make it ONLY One event
Could be Falling away cause of doctrine, Falling away because of lack of belief, Falling away because of Time Delay..... There is no JUST ONE...
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Post by venge on May 30, 2019 13:09:39 GMT -6
Gary
Appreciate your reply. Yes, we will find people on both sides of the spectrum and in this case, I can see that the guy who bought the book took the stand as post Trib vs pre Trib though he does make valid points on his own.
Kjs
Isn’t it possible the apostasy is so great, the “the” in front makes it special and “only” in itself? I don’t know, I’m just asking.
Paul saying the the day of Christ won’t come till there is a harpazo sounds odd imo
And harpazo isn’t used. If we believe it is rapture, and the texts reads the wrath will not come till there is a rapture and the man of sin is revealed, it doesn’t just support pre Trib if they acknowledge they will see the man of sin..but also supports pre wrath and supports others.
Many can use it as a defense of their doctrine. If the book writer makes that claim, I can make it too. But that’s not the point..
If Paul assured them the wrath had not yet come, why would he remind them of the rapture? Surely they knew of it as a core teaching!
They would not think the rapture passed them if they were in wrath, but Paul suggesting a apostasy of Faith happens at a time Christianity is growing...is possible. I cannot tell myself. I can only go by what I read and interpret by the HS. Whether physical or spiritual, I’m ready and looking at both.
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Post by davewatchman on May 30, 2019 14:44:07 GMT -6
I enjoy reading both sides of this debate .... Not me. Not really. I don't like to debate. And it's spooky because i think i'm right. And if i am right, we are living in the kingdom of the rebels right now, at the latter part of their reign. They have become completely wicked, so God has given them over to a reprobate mind. However the "clincher" for me is The definite article "THE" is the word BEFORE "Apostasia" Here is how a learning website defines "THE" "We use the definite article in front of a noun when we believe the listener/reader knows exactly what we are referring to: because there is only one" Now, we know that Apostle Paul taught the people in Thessaloniki that the rapture was an event (where the dead in Christ and the Still Alive in Christ -- would join Jesus Christ in the air). His phraseology placed the word "THE" in front of the word "Apostasia"
If this word is supposed to mean "departure" -- having The in front of it -- simply making it "THE DEPARTURE" --- "with the only one event -- being meeting Jesus in the air" However, IF the word is supposed to mean "Falling Away" -- then placing the word in front of it -- The Falling Away --- does not make it ONLY One event Could be Falling away cause of doctrine, Falling away because of lack of belief, Falling away because of Time Delay..... There is no JUST ONE... The "THE" in front of the falling away works for me too. "We use the definite article in front of a noun when we believe the listener/reader knows exactly what we are referring to: because there is only one"
Paul was talking about a specific falling away from God's ways, a specific rebellion, THE rebellion that must come first and would take place just before the man of sin is revealed. Paul was talking about the rebellion mentioned in Daniel 8.
"And at the latter end of their kingdom,
when the transgressors have reached their limit,
a king of bold face, one who understands riddles, shall arise.
"In the latter part of their reign,
when rebels have become completely wicked,
a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise.
Think of it like the rebellion that comes first is when the "transgressors have reached their limit". Notice a Divine "limit to transgression", it's the kingdom of the transgressors not the kingdom of the 4 horns. This is a global affair. This is bigger than Christians turning away from Christianity. This is similar to when the Lord was speaking to Abraham, telling him that he had to wait until the sins of the Amorites had reached it's limit.
"In the fourth generation your descendants will return here,
for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its limit."
But in our case the wheat is growing WITH the tares. This kingdom of rebels is not talking about a specific nation or kingdom, but instead is referring to the prevailing number or group of world wide transgressing individuals.
We are now living at the latter end of the kingdom of the transgressors when they have reached and exceeded their "limit". Is it a particular transgression itself that makes desolate like the last straw and this causes the "taking away of the daily" by Jesus in Heaven's Temple that triggers our end time clock?
I believe that we have been living in the Antichrist's world wide Kingdom. He has taken charge behind the scenes as the dragon who has given his power and his throne and his great authority to the composite beast.
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Post by stormyknight on May 30, 2019 15:18:49 GMT -6
This may be a dumb question, but did they not make dictionaries way back then? Is there no way to know what was meant when it was written? Definitions change, so I'm just wondering.
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