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Post by Natalie on Mar 13, 2019 14:26:52 GMT -6
Instead of editing my above post.... I agree with you that we are not judged on our holy living, but we are to be a people set apart for Him, correct? I think that is what I am trying to ask about. If Christians don't look any different than the world, would that also be apostasy? ETA I think we posted at the same time  |
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Post by mike on Mar 13, 2019 14:28:15 GMT -6
Yeah, I am not sure that my question came out right. I know that Christians are forgiven those things, and so it's not a salvation thing that I was talking about. It's more that I see Christians who are just living how they want. They believe the gospel, and are saved but then have no problem going along with stuff that would go against God's Word. It's like they take the teachings they want and throw out what they don't like. Just wondering if that could be counted as apostasy, too? Above my pay grade to make that "judgment" at least at this time in this body, Natalie I debate with myself regularly on this topic. I believe, you believe, BSG does but none of us follow perfectly. Well how would that apply to a homosexual or gambler or someone who treats the temple of the Holy Spirit wrongly by falling into to binge drinking or something like that. I think we are more productive in conversation when we talk with those who say they believe but also say its ok to be a homosexual or glutton, since we arent perfect. IMO We are to agree that we arent perfect but HE IS! and he finds things like this abominable. We should be the vehicle for the Holy Spirit to operate through and allow Him to work on the seared consciouses. Or with hope before they are seared. |
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Post by Natalie on Mar 13, 2019 14:32:24 GMT -6
I agree, Mike. I also know that it would probably be easier to clarify and work through what is in my head if we were all sitting around a table with some yummy desserts and what not. |
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Post by fitz on Mar 13, 2019 15:47:56 GMT -6
I will have to watch Amir's teaching soon (husband is home this week and we are on Spring Break  ) Would apostasy also cover just the basic lack of holy living? For example, those who claim to belong to Christ but have no trouble with living together, or accepting Eastern influenced practices, or homosexuality, etc and even just stuff like coarse joking, inappropriate music, games, or movies, etc. I remarked to a friend of mine awhile back that there is no (healthy) fear of God any more. Personally, I would draw a strong distinction between "backsliding" and "apostasy", with a big, thick, black magic marker! Because one who allows his commitment to Christ to fade in slipping back into old sins, once again becoming entangled in worldly things (such as the ones you cite above), this doesn't equate to apostasy, in my mind. If so, then we are all apostate. Apostasy (apostasia) is a serious thing. It is whole sale defection, abandonment of faith...or turning aside to a twisted form of what is true, i.e. to preach, teach or believe a false gospel. I'll stick with "departure" as it's used in 2 Thes 2:3 as I believe we've seeing apostasia occur for over 2000 years now. My .02 |
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Post by Natalie on Mar 13, 2019 19:36:13 GMT -6
Thanks, Fitz. I think I am just trying to figure out what apostasy would be, since as you said, it's been around for 2000 years.
Apostasy being a turning, a rejection, whereas what I was asking is more of backsliding/disobedience type behavior.
Yes, I can see that apostasy would be much more serious.
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Post by mike on Mar 14, 2019 6:50:19 GMT -6
fitz - I can see that there may be a difference between these terms backsliding and apostasy. Examples of the usage of these in the bible found below in addition to a refresher of the meaning Apostasy - (n.) A total desertion or departure from one's faith, principles, or party; as, Julian's apostasy from Christianity; An abandonment of what one has voluntarily professed; 646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing." This term is found only twice in the NT. 2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;Acts 21:21And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise [their] children, neither to walk after the customs.
There are other examples to falling away but a different word is used.
4868. aphistémi From apo and histemi; to remove, i.e. (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc. -- depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.I can see how what Fitz refers to as backsliding may be more appropriate in terms of the reference below. I believe we see this en masse now. Many who claim to believe or casually call themselves Christians, also are falling away by accepting doctrines of demons. The application of this word seems to be more of a slow departure or luring: 1Tim 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
Luke 4:13
And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.
Acts 5:37
After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, [even] as many as obeyed him, were dispersed.
Heb 3:12
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.In the Hebrews example above I see a tie to what is doing the 'luring', we get a similar reference in James 1:14 but the word used is not the same. Prov 14:14The backslider in heart will have the fill of his own ways, but a good man will be rewarded for his.5472. sug backslider, drive, go back, turn away, back A primitive root; properly, to flinch, i.e. (by implication) to go back, literally (to retreat) or figuratively (to apostatize) -- backslider, drive, go back, turn (away, back). 4878 meshubah: turning back, apostasy backsliding, turning away
Or mshubah {mesh-oo-baw'}; from shuwb; apostasy -- backsliding, turning away.Jer 3:6The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen [that] which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot. 7 And I said after she had done all these [things], Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw [it]. 8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.Hosea 14:4I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.I also see that in Hosea that the Lord can/will heal backsliding/apostasy, but when does that happen
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Mar 14, 2019 8:38:14 GMT -6
It takes the fall of Mystery Babylon. Described as the harlot because all have drank from her cup of abomination. If we are equated to a "bride made one by the Lord Jesus" , when we seek and follow other idols, we are committing that adultery talked about.
4I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;
5for her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.
6“Pay her back even as she has paid, and give back to her double according to her deeds; in the cup which she has mixed, mix twice as much for her.
7“To the degree that she glorified herself and lived sensuously, to the same degree give her torment and mourning; for she says in her heart, ‘I SIT as A QUEEN AND I AM NOT A WIDOW, and will never see mourning.’
no matter what or who or how you define MB, I think of it as the ultimate Element of Bondage, and why or what keeps us in bondage?
calamity has come on us; yet we have not sought the favor of the LORD our God by turning from our iniquity and giving attention to Your truth.
14“Therefore the LORD has kept the calamity in store and brought it on us; for the LORD our God is righteous with respect to all His deeds which He has done, but we have not obeyed His voice. (Dan 9)
Jesus is the Head of our Household, our covering, and to forsake Him and follow other desires of one's heart is to cheat on Him spiritually.
Yes, argue with me that one can not commit adultery with Him if one doesn't believe in Him, but He came for all so anyone forsaking the Good News is under an adulterous state. I am being very general in my description here. Just trying to draw a broader picture of what it going on Spiritually (behind the scenes).
This is why marriage is between a Man and a woman. Christ and His Follower, so HE can COVER for these iniquities. The follower is the Woman. In the Garden it was the woman who was deceived, it was the man who sinned. So when Jesus DIED, He interceded for Adam's Sin. Oh the great spiritual miracle and significance of the whole story in Genesis manifested on the Cross! Those following another doctrine are being "deceived" by the desire of their hearts. This is what will change for each and every soul as Jesus brings His Followers under His Reign. Thank you God for our Saviour to this mystery issue of the heart of man!
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Post by mike on Mar 14, 2019 9:05:57 GMT -6
BSG - I'm confused by the last reply. How does that indicate the falling away?
Given that the falling away must happen FIRST, I don't think we can ascribe the falling away all the way back to Adam. It has to occur in latter times
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Mar 14, 2019 11:45:07 GMT -6
mike you asked when does he heal the backslidden, the apostate.. at least that is how the sentence read to me.
I am laughing now. You were still asking, when does the apostacy happen...I am sure you raised your eye brows with me once again, and said, What in the WORLD is she talking about? hahahaha....
There are many who feel it is a term for the Rapture, which I can be convinced of that, sure. There are also the many who feel it has to do with church believers turning away from God en masse. I can believe that too. But how can they depart from the Faith? Were these people who professed Christ with their mouth? did a public baptism? The one thing that no one KNOWS is who has been sealed by the Holy Spirit. That would be my question. Who is Sealed? A teaching of the Holy Spirit here, because only the Holy Spirit can open eyes, ears, and hearts, am I right? We ourselves are not capable of unblinding ourselves can we? Therein lies one of those mysteries...
I watched the Case for Faith with Lee Strobel and he had a story about one evangelist who traveled with Billy Graham. This person changed his mind! He died NOT having Faith anymore. How is that possible with all the things that person taught others, and seemed to profess with his mouth. I have to watch it again so I can remember the details as I believe Lee interview the guy before his death.
I think everything is tied in with the Revealing of the Sons of God, the immortal putting on mortal, in a twinkling. It will be revealed to those who are not of flesh and blood anymore what the man of lawlessness is, and there will be many whose faith fails them for whatever reason, but most likely because they were relying on themselves and not God..
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Post by venge on Mar 15, 2019 7:57:19 GMT -6
Barbiosheep,
You are correct. You said Mystery Babylon returns us to bondage. That is a truth. From a figurative interpretation, I can identify MB with the second trumpet. That is the mountain tossed into the sea. If you go back to Exodus, Moses sees this mountain of fear that smokes. But God states later he would bring them a mountain of joy, not fear. The fear was bondage, the joy was grace thru faith. People will return to spiritual bondage as they are today.
Even In Matthew and Luke it is stated, if you have faith and love in your heart, you have the ability to move mountains and cast them into the sea. In Ezekiel a great mountain was cast into the sea. Christ uses the parable of a fig tree (Jerusalem) as being able to move it and change it if you have faith and love.
The apostasy obviously happens because we are told. People leave the church because of fables, tales, doctrine of demons, works instead of faith, following idols: money, technology, sports, other treasures of their heart.
What happened to be ye Holy for I am holy?
It is a removal of truth and a removal of your heart. I would say one could profess a Christian and go to church and still fall away by leaning into doctrine contrary to Christ original testimony. The nicolations did this.
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Post by rt on Mar 16, 2019 7:50:20 GMT -6
Yeah, I am not sure that my question came out right. I know that Christians are forgiven those things, and so it's not a salvation thing that I was talking about. It's more that I see Christians who are just living how they want. They believe the gospel, and are saved but then have no problem going along with stuff that would go against God's Word. It's like they take the teachings they want and throw out what they don't like. Just wondering if that could be counted as apostasy, too? Above my pay grade to make that "judgment" at least at this time in this body, Natalie I debate with myself regularly on this topic. I believe, you believe, BSG does but none of us follow perfectly. Well how would that apply to a homosexual or gambler or someone who treats the temple of the Holy Spirit wrongly by falling into to binge drinking or something like that. I think we are more productive in conversation when we talk with those who say they believe but also say its ok to be a homosexual or glutton, since we arent perfect. IMO We are to agree that we arent perfect but HE IS! and he finds things like this abominable. We should be the vehicle for the Holy Spirit to operate through and allow Him to work on the seared consciouses. Or with hope before they are seared. If you look at the parable of the sower it lends some understanding. There is only one seed that is scattered that produces fruit, that is the one that is planted in good soil, The soil represents the person, and the seed is the word of God, so what does it mean to be good soil? The good soil is the person who is justified by faith in Jesus Christ. The other seeds are planted in less than ideal soil. These people receive the word of God but for various reasons never advance to bearing fruit. They are never really justified, because they never truly believe. For those who continue to live in a manner that is of the flesh with no remorse or conviction, I would say they are likely not truly saved. They are like the soil whose plant of faith is choked out by weeds, or withers for lack of rain. Over and over the scripture tells us to be doers of the word, we can only be doers if the Holy Spirit resides in us, if we are not doers, then there is a likelihood that we do not have the Holy Spirit. I think the term "worldly or carnal Christian" is an oxymoron, one cannot be worldy or carnal and also be a Christian. In saying that let me clarify, as believers we all sin. I am talking about so called Christians that live continuously in sin without remorse .Of course there are those babes in Christ who are learning to walk by faith and in the Spirit, who need the help of those more mature believers, both as examples and mentors to help them grow their plant of faith. We come alongside and till the soil, add some fertilizer, pull up some weeds! Be the body to those in need of assistance. I do not think it is my duty to judge who is a true believer and who is not, God knows. But if we truly love them we should admonish those (in love) who appear to sow to the flesh so that they might be moved to repentance. Perhaps in doing so we may help them to come to the true saving knowledge of Jesus! So to me those who are caught in a cycle of sin are not necessarily apostate. Apostate IMO and according to scripture is a defection from truth. It is belief in lies. |
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Post by venge on Mar 18, 2019 10:07:48 GMT -6
Above my pay grade to make that "judgment" at least at this time in this body, Natalie I debate with myself regularly on this topic. I believe, you believe, BSG does but none of us follow perfectly. Well how would that apply to a homosexual or gambler or someone who treats the temple of the Holy Spirit wrongly by falling into to binge drinking or something like that. I think we are more productive in conversation when we talk with those who say they believe but also say its ok to be a homosexual or glutton, since we arent perfect. IMO We are to agree that we arent perfect but HE IS! and he finds things like this abominable. We should be the vehicle for the Holy Spirit to operate through and allow Him to work on the seared consciouses. Or with hope before they are seared. If you look at the parable of the sower it lends some understanding. There is only one seed that is scattered that produces fruit, that is the one that is planted in good soil, The soil represents the person, and the seed is the word of God, so what does it mean to be good soil? The good soil is the person who is justified by faith in Jesus Christ. The other seeds are planted in less than ideal soil. These people receive the word of God but for various reasons never advance to bearing fruit. They are never really justified, because they never truly believe. For those who continue to live in a manner that is of the flesh with no remorse or conviction, I would say they are likely not truly saved. They are like the soil whose plant of faith is choked out by weeds, or withers for lack of rain. Over and over the scripture tells us to be doers of the word, we can only be doers if the Holy Spirit resides in us, if we are not doers, then there is a likelihood that we do not have the Holy Spirit. I think the term "worldly or carnal Christian" is an oxymoron, one cannot be worldy or carnal and also be a Christian. In saying that let me clarify, as believers we all sin. I am talking about so called Christians that live continuously in sin without remorse .Of course there are those babes in Christ who are learning to walk by faith and in the Spirit, who need the help of those more mature believers, both as examples and mentors to help them grow their plant of faith. We come alongside and till the soil, add some fertilizer, pull up some weeds! Be the body to those in need of assistance. I do not think it is my duty to judge who is a true believer and who is not, God knows. But if we truly love them we should admonish those (in love) who appear to sow to the flesh so that they might be moved to repentance. Perhaps in doing so we may help them to come to the true saving knowledge of Jesus! So to me those who are caught in a cycle of sin are not necessarily apostate. Apostate IMO and according to scripture is a defection from truth. It is belief in lies. I add to your well written analysis RT, the good soil is not just by faith in Jesus Christ. Truth by told, you spoke the truth of the word. I have a coworker that says they are Christian but this coworker curses like a sailor. When I made mention to them about bridling their tongue, an such things as we spoke of religion, the answer given to me was along the lines of that's how I am, its not a big deal. When I asked about this person watching nudity on TV, they replied with they can control it. It doesn't effect them. I hear that a lot from "believers". I suppose they never read the word when it says: Everything we watch and we accept to that is against holiness, is wrong and we cannot control it. If you let evil in to your eye, the whole body will be corrupted. Didn't God say be ye Holy for I am Holy? What is Holy about profanity or nudity that you can control. Did not God set standards and laws for us to edify? But I digress. |
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Post by venge on Mar 29, 2019 17:13:18 GMT -6
I thought more about the falling away. I am not sure if I posted this previously or perhaps someone else did - If we are the Holy People, what is our power, that once it is scattered the end comes. I'd assume when people Christians stop soulwinning (casting out devils; 1 John 3:8) and speaking with new tongues (learning languages to evangelize and evangelizing in other countries spreading the gospel) and taking up serpents (fighting against false teachers/falsehood; Psalm 58:4, Psalm 140:3, Matt 12:34, Matt 23:33, Isa 65:23) as well as drink any deadly thing (the posion of falsehood, lies and bad doctrine) as well as laying hands on the sick (those that are unclean making them clean and saving their souls.) When we stop doing the fundamental things Christ did, and do the things we want to do...when we stop believing...that is when the end comes. That is the falling away. It is not just a falling away from Church attendance. Its falling away from the truth. Make no mistake, Church cannot save you but you also should want to be around brothers and sisters in Christ. You cannot do that at home. You can read the bible yourself, but you cannot Shepard yourself. You can glorify Christ in your house. But nothing compares to glorifying him with your voice in the presence of a congregation all with one voice. You can stay at home and teach your children from the book, but showing them that there are others like you that believe and that they are not alone is awesome. What happens when its all gone? Opendoorsusa.org is a great site about Christian persecution. They have a note that I wanted to post here: OpenDoorsPersecution.comBarnabusfund |
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Post by fitz on Apr 23, 2019 10:47:04 GMT -6
But if we want to define a word found in the bible, we want to use Strong's concordance, right? Not a dictionary or wikipedia. We want the meaning of the Greek word, not the definition of the English word "Apostasy". We know what apostasy is, because we've been seeing it in the church for 2000 years now. So when is enough apostasy, this apostasy?
Dr. Woods has a very valid argument. As you see below, even Strong's reveals several meanings for the word and it's root. But contextually, the word "depart" makes better sense here, unless you are predisposed to a post-trib eschatology. Why were the Thessalonians so distraught that the Day of the Lord had already come? If Paul had taught them to expect to go through the tribulation, then there was no need for him to write to them regarding the matter...twice. The suffering they were experiencing would have been expected.
You are watching for the Antichrist, most here are watching for Jesus.
apostasia: defection, revolt
Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apostasia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Definition: defection, revolt
Usage: defection, apostasy, revolt.
646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."
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Post by kjs on Apr 23, 2019 11:11:58 GMT -6
But if we want to define a word found in the bible, we want to use Strong's concordance, right? Not a dictionary or wikipedia. We want the meaning of the Greek word, not the definition of the English word "Apostasy". We know what apostasy is, because we've been seeing it in the church for 2000 years now. So when is enough apostasy, this apostasy? Dr. Woods has a very valid argument. As you see below, even Strong's reveals several meanings for the word and it's root. But contextually, the word "depart" makes better sense here, unless you are predisposed to a post-trib eschatology. Why were the Thessalonians so distraught that the Day of the Lord had already come? If Paul had taught them to expect to go through the tribulation, then there was no need for him to write to them regarding the matter...twice. The suffering they were experiencing would have been expected. You are watching for the Antichrist, most here are watching for Jesus. apostasia: defection, revolt Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine Transliteration: apostasia Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah) Definition: defection, revolt Usage: defection, apostasy, revolt. 646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing." This has already been stated in the very first post (BUT I think it bears repeating and repeating)
The first seven English Bible translations of apostasia all most appropriately rendered the noun as either the "the departure" or "the departing".
Wycliffe Bible (1384)
Tyndale Bible (1526)
Coverdale Bible (1539)
Cranmore Bible (1539)
Breeches Bible (1576)
Beza Bible (1583)
Geneva Bible (1608)
UNTIL, we (this generation) started this "drift away" from PRE-TRIB to those positions of Mid-Trib, Prewrath-Trib, and Post-Trib -- there was CLEAR cut understanding in Premillennialism that there was the church and Israel -- and once the church was gone -- it would be Israel again....
Now days, it is no longer Premillennialism and Amillennialism (which was really the only two views in town - just a few years ago)
BUT now most have left Amillennialism (though there are still a few around) and now people try to divide up Premillennialism .....
So just realize a few hundred years ago (before all these debates about millennial-ism -- and yes even before the rebirth of Israel)
All English translations made the CALL to call it "THE DEPARTURE" .....
=================================================
Now I said this before -- but will say it again here............
Please keep in mind that the word "THE" precedes apostasia ----
regardless if you allow the word to represent departure or falling away -- you need to tack THE in front of it....
Making it either THE departure or THE Falling Away
I believe the context makes more sense with The Departure
But let us look at the other way -- just for looking at both sides.....
The Falling Away --- would indicate it is not a generic type of Falling Away -- but a Specific Type of Falling Away.....
if there was a specific type of Falling Away -- would not that type be spelled out?
TOO MANY PEOPLE -- take this as Falling Away and leave it at that -- but the actual text has the definite THE before it.........
So if your part of the group that believes in the Falling Away..... PLEASE DEFINE THE Falling Away........
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