rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Dec 11, 2018 22:14:02 GMT -6
If he is correct, then the text in this passage indicates that the Day of Christ (rapture) will not happen until the falling away comes first. I understand this is not a widely held belief here, but *IF* he is correct, then the apostasia could not mean departure as in rapture, because that would be saying "The rapture cannot happen until the rapture happens first."
Sorry, Hillary -- even if your objection does not make sense -- you are attempting to claim that adding THE Departure makes the passage say "The rapture cannot happen until the rapture happens first." BUT that is simply how you worded it to make it seem out of place ..... Let's start with verse 3 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not arrive until the rebellion comes and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction. (this is the NET Translation) NOW LET's change rebellion to departure 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not arrive until the departure comes and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction. Remember -- here in the passage it is "TALKING" of that Day? What Day? Go back one verse and it tells you ... "...the day of the Lord...." Hi KJS, I always found the comment you mentioned that someone else made pretty "NONSENSICAL" and could never wrap my mind around why anyone would ever speak in that fashion. I was just in a debate with a few guys on another site who stated the same thing, and they actually believed it vehemently, so I asked myself why ? What are they actually inferring and I finally figured out what they were saying, they think the Rapture is Post-trib, so when they say that passage using the word Departure can't mean Rapture because if it did that would be like saying the Rapture (DEPARTURE) can't happen until the Rapture (Day of the Lord) they assume the Day of the Lord is when we are Raptured (It isn't of course). You see, I am pretty sure they think the Day of the Lord is just ONE DAY, and it's the Day that Jesus Raptures (REMEMBER, Post trib belief) the Church so they then offer up what they see as a conundrum, in which they say if we are to believe what you are saying, then the Rapture (Departure) can't happen until the Rapture (Day of the Lord) comes to pass. Now, it's hard for me to believe they don't/can't understand that many of us think the Rapture happens before the 70th week/Tribulation period begins. So after hearing this for 20 years, I finally figured out what they mean by this saying, this is a perfect example to me why we should not repeat men's traditions, if they studied the issues at hand they would or should know that the Departure many of us are speaking of is hinting at a Pre-tribulation Rapture, thus it would fit perfectly, the Rapture therefore CAN HAPPEN before the Day of the Lord which is God's Wrath, not the Rapture. Mystery of 20 years solved...disagreement with the post tribbers still lingers I imagine. |
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Post by cwood85 on Dec 11, 2018 23:32:10 GMT -6
I am someone who disagrees with this word meaning departure, at least a physical one.
Strong’s Definition:
646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."
Dictionary.com:
noun, plural a·pos·ta·sies.
a total desertion of or departure from one's religion, principles, party, cause, etc.
Greek: a standing away, withdrawing, equivalent to apóstas(is ) ( apo- apo- + sta- stand + -sis -sis) + -ia -ia
Yourdictionary.com:
noun
The definition of an apostasy is the act of leaving behind, or straying from, your religious or political beliefs or your principles.
An example of apostasy is when someone decides to become atheist.
Apostasy is not another word for the rapture nor is it referring to it. It is a mental departure/desertion of a previous stance, belief, principles, or religion.
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Post by kjs on Dec 12, 2018 10:12:24 GMT -6
I am someone who disagrees with this word meaning departure, at least a physical one. Strong’s Definition: 646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."Dictionary.com: noun, plural a·pos·ta·sies. a total desertion of or departure from one's religion, principles, party, cause, etc.Greek: a standing away, withdrawing, equivalent to apóstas(is ) ( apo- apo- + sta- stand + -sis -sis) + -ia -ia Yourdictionary.com: noun The definition of an apostasy is the act of leaving behind, or straying from, your religious or political beliefs or your principles. An example of apostasy is when someone decides to become atheist.
Apostasy is not another word for the rapture nor is it referring to it. It is a mental departure/desertion of a previous stance, belief, principles, or religion.
It can also be defined as LEAVING -- as when a boat leaves port.....
In that case "THE Departure" makes the most sense.......
What many people (who vigorously defend the "rebellion" or "Falling away from Faith") -- keep forgetting to include "THE"
hē (3588) -- means -- Usage: the, the definite article.
What ever apostasía is suppose to mean ---- it is THE apostasía ......... { hē apostasia }
So IF it is really a rebellion or falling away --- IT HAS TO BE a specific TYPE of rebellion or falling away........
SO your example -- "An example of apostasy is when someone decides to become atheist."
Are you really trying to claim they (whomever) became THE ATHEIST?
really do not think that works...........
So basically we have two definitions
apostasia means physical departure (i.e. moving from point A to point B).
apostasia means spiritual departure (i.e. falling away or departing from the faith)
BUT we know the word before apostasia is THE -- because of that only a physical departure makes sense.
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Post by fitz on Dec 12, 2018 10:30:31 GMT -6
Contextually, "Departure" makes much more sense in the passage. Also, Apostasy in the Church has been happening since Paul's day. How much apostasy would we expect to see? Many say 50% of the Church is apostate today.
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Post by cwood85 on Dec 12, 2018 10:33:09 GMT -6
I am someone who disagrees with this word meaning departure, at least a physical one. Strong’s Definition: 646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."Dictionary.com: noun, plural a·pos·ta·sies. a total desertion of or departure from one's religion, principles, party, cause, etc.Greek: a standing away, withdrawing, equivalent to apóstas(is ) ( apo- apo- + sta- stand + -sis -sis) + -ia -ia Yourdictionary.com: noun The definition of an apostasy is the act of leaving behind, or straying from, your religious or political beliefs or your principles. An example of apostasy is when someone decides to become atheist.
Apostasy is not another word for the rapture nor is it referring to it. It is a mental departure/desertion of a previous stance, belief, principles, or religion. It can also be defined as LEAVING -- as when a boat leaves port..... In that case "THE Departure" makes the most sense....... What many people (who vigorously defend the "rebellion" or "Falling away from Faith") -- keep forgetting to include "THE" hē (3588) -- means -- Usage: the, the definite article.
What ever apostasía is suppose to mean ---- it is THE apostasía ......... { hē apostasia }
So IF it is really a rebellion or falling away --- IT HAS TO BE a specific TYPE of rebellion or falling away........ SO your example -- "An example of apostasy is when someone decides to become atheist." Are you really trying to claim they (whomever) became THE ATHEIST? really do not think that works...........
So basically we have two definitions
apostasia means physical departure (i.e. moving from point A to point B). apostasia means spiritual departure (i.e. falling away or departing from the faith) BUT we know the word before apostasia is THE -- because of that only a physical departure makes sense.
The atheist example was not mine, but what was given on your dictionary.com Do you have sources or links for the physical part or meaning that this word can mean as well? I am asking because I have not come across anything yet. I very well could have missed something because there is a lot of information on this word and would be greatly appreciated. The word “the” could certainly work when describing something non physical such as The departure from or of or away from and so fourth The revolt from or of and so fourth The rebellion from or away... The defection from or away.... There were several other dictionary and word studies on websites such as Miriam Webster, biblehub, bible Gateway and so fourth that say their word is not referring to something physical. Just going by what information I have come across when researching this word. |
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Dec 12, 2018 13:20:23 GMT -6
I am someone who disagrees with this word meaning departure, at least a physical one. Strong’s Definition: 646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."Dictionary.com: noun, plural a·pos·ta·sies. a total desertion of or departure from one's religion, principles, party, cause, etc.Greek: a standing away, withdrawing, equivalent to apóstas(is ) ( apo- apo- + sta- stand + -sis -sis) + -ia -ia Yourdictionary.com: noun The definition of an apostasy is the act of leaving behind, or straying from, your religious or political beliefs or your principles. An example of apostasy is when someone decides to become atheist.
Apostasy is not another word for the rapture nor is it referring to it. It is a mental departure/desertion of a previous stance, belief, principles, or religion. Words have a way of morphing over time, only 75 years ago "GAY" always meant happy. A DEPARTURE from a previous STANDING (on earth, now in Heaven) = Rapture to Heaven. It doesn't matter how it's come to be viewed 2000 years later, what was APO (Away) and HISTIMI (Standing) meant to imply when Paul wrote it ? Seeing as how it has a definite article used in conjunction that means it is pointing to a specific "DEPARTURE" and the gathering together unto the Lord in the very first verse is what is of course being spoken of. Nowhere is FAITH mentioned so as I can see at all. Just because the word has come to mean "APOSTASY" in the manner its become known for, doesn't mean that is what Paul meant it to mean. I give the KJV translators the credit for that. EXAMPLE: What if a guy in 1945 wrote about the gay parade of the masses marching in the streets to celebrate the USA winning WW2. A 100 years from now or 500 years from now someone might look at that and say, but I thought the gay people were against war !! It's all relative to the moment in time we are speaking about. Likewise, the Departure Paul wrote about was a departure from this earth to be gathered unto the Lord Jesus, the KJV seemingly juxtaposed it as a departure from the faith, in order to take a potshot at the RCC some people surmise. Thus the word starts a transformation into Apostasy. The Latin Vulgate for 1000 years or longer before 1611 used the word discessio (departure) also. |
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Post by kjs on Dec 12, 2018 15:19:41 GMT -6
The atheist example was not mine, but what was given on your dictionary.com Do you have sources or links for the physical part or meaning that this word can mean as well? I am asking because I have not come across anything yet. I very well could have missed something because there is a lot of information on this word and would be greatly appreciated. The word “the” could certainly work when describing something non physical such as The departure from or of or away from and so fourth The revolt from or of and so fourth The rebellion from or away... The defection from or away.... There were several other dictionary and word studies on websites such as Miriam Webster, biblehub, bible Gateway and so fourth that say their word is not referring to something physical. Just going by what information I have come across when researching this word.
YES, Adding the word FROM -- makes the word "THE" to handle translation.....
BUT the translation DOES NOT HAVE FROM IN IT......
Here is word for word translation
…not [until] shall have come the apostasy first and shall have been revealed…
it would need to have === ἀπό -- apo -- from, away from ------ if you wanted from to be part of it
Notice, it simply says the apostasy happens first === NOT the apostasy from happens first........
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary --- To leave; to depart from.
Notice Paul's use in I Tim 4:1 1 Tim 4:1
.....where the Spirit explicitly says that in latter times, some will depart ....
apostēsontai - is the word for spiritual departure that Paul uses..... and this word literal means "will depart from"
so your examples
The rebellion from or away...
The defection from or away....
Fit perfectly with apostēsontai --{"will depart from"}
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Post by venge on Jan 8, 2019 11:51:29 GMT -6
Reading this thread, I’ll just say this...
If leaving the faith we’re to happen in large numbers (which I believe to be accurate), ask yourself why?
Isn’t the Bible specific why some leave?
1. Giving in to other doctrine
2. Giving into fables
3. Martyrdom of believers
4. Family members against each other
5. Love of most is cold; isn’t love the greatest of all things?
People whose faith is weak already don’t want persecution or enmity with others.
I enjoy the thread, interesting thoughts but I have to agree with Gary, doesn’t happen often 🤪, and his analysis. I find there is none other way to interpret it when comparing it to previous scripture already posted. Ps. Yes I’m still alive..just lurking
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Post by kjs on Jan 8, 2019 16:18:42 GMT -6
Reading this thread, I’ll just say this... If leaving the faith we’re to happen in large numbers (which I believe to be accurate), ask yourself why? Isn’t the Bible specific why some leave? 1. Giving in to other doctrine 2. Giving into fables 3. Martyrdom of believers 4. Family members against each other 5. Love of most is cold; isn’t love the greatest of all things? People whose faith is weak already don’t want persecution or enmity with others. I enjoy the thread, interesting thoughts but I have to agree with Gary, doesn’t happen often 🤪, and his analysis. I find there is none other way to interpret it when comparing it to previous scripture already posted. Ps. Yes I’m still alive..just lurking Welcome Back ........... to the posting side of the equation..... Please keep it up...... |
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Post by mike on Mar 13, 2019 12:27:23 GMT -6
Reading this thread, I’ll just say this... If leaving the faith we’re to happen in large numbers (which I believe to be accurate), ask yourself why? Isn’t the Bible specific why some leave? 1. Giving in to other doctrine
2. Giving into fables3. Martyrdom of believers 4. Family members against each other 5. Love of most is cold; isn’t love the greatest of all things? People whose faith is weak already don’t want persecution or enmity with others. I enjoy the thread, interesting thoughts but I have to agree with Gary, doesn’t happen often 🤪, and his analysis. I find there is none other way to interpret it when comparing it to previous scripture already posted. Ps. Yes I’m still alive..just lurking Just listening to the latest from Amir Tsafati (sp?) and he also shares about point 1 & 2 being the way to apply apostasy. This makes a lot of sense given what we have been seeing in our times with gay priests, abortion narrowly being condemned in the Methodist church 52/48 |
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Post by Natalie on Mar 13, 2019 12:48:34 GMT -6
I will have to watch Amir's teaching soon (husband is home this week and we are on Spring Break  ) Would apostasy also cover just the basic lack of holy living? For example, those who claim to belong to Christ but have no trouble with living together, or accepting Eastern influenced practices, or homosexuality, etc and even just stuff like coarse joking, inappropriate music, games, or movies, etc. I remarked to a friend of mine awhile back that there is no (healthy) fear of God any more. |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Mar 13, 2019 14:08:23 GMT -6
Hi natalie, Happy Spring Break! for what it's worth, I could see @socal raising an eyebrow on your list because are not these things pardoned by grace for the believer? We are not judged by our holy living are we? I am not taking any position here, not agreeing with or nor disagreeing with you. But, I have been in some back and forth with socal on this in the past. I am not sure if unholy living as you described here equates to giving in to other doctrine or following fables. In fact, having faith in holy living as the way to heaven itself could be considered "following other doctrines" no?
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Post by Natalie on Mar 13, 2019 14:15:19 GMT -6
Yeah, I am not sure that my question came out right.
I know that Christians are forgiven those things, and so it's not a salvation thing that I was talking about. It's more that I see Christians who are just living how they want. They believe the gospel, and are saved but then have no problem going along with stuff that would go against God's Word.
It's like they take the teachings they want and throw out what they don't like.
Just wondering if that could be counted as apostasy, too?
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Post by mike on Mar 13, 2019 14:23:03 GMT -6
I will have to watch Amir's teaching soon (husband is home this week and we are on Spring Break ) Would apostasy also cover just the basic lack of holy living? For example, those who claim to belong to Christ but have no trouble with living together, or accepting Eastern influenced practices, or homosexuality, etc and even just stuff like coarse joking, inappropriate music, games, or movies, etc. I remarked to a friend of mine awhile back that there is no (healthy) fear of God any more.
Titus 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. 15 Unto the pure all things [are] pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving [is] nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny [him], being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Mar 13, 2019 14:25:15 GMT -6
I hear ya. I personally believe we are in a Walk with our Lord. This Walk is not about Salvation. We can never uncrucify Christ, undo HIS Work. Yet we can be deaf to what He wants and we can still give to the desires of our hearts (our idols). It is a personal thing for each one of His children.
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