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Post by venge on Apr 23, 2019 14:05:50 GMT -6
But if we want to define a word found in the bible, we want to use Strong's concordance, right? Not a dictionary or wikipedia. We want the meaning of the Greek word, not the definition of the English word "Apostasy". We know what apostasy is, because we've been seeing it in the church for 2000 years now. So when is enough apostasy, this apostasy? Dr. Woods has a very valid argument. As you see below, even Strong's reveals several meanings for the word and it's root. But contextually, the word "depart" makes better sense here, unless you are predisposed to a post-trib eschatology. Why were the Thessalonians so distraught that the Day of the Lord had already come? If Paul had taught them to expect to go through the tribulation, then there was no need for him to write to them regarding the matter...twice. The suffering they were experiencing would have been expected. You are watching for the Antichrist, most here are watching for Jesus. apostasia: defection, revolt Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine Transliteration: apostasia Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah) Definition: defection, revolt Usage: defection, apostasy, revolt. 646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing." Fritz, My understanding of Paul to the Thessalonians was this: They were experiencing tribulations. Attacks, mocking, killings and such all over the nations on Christians. There existed persecution. I think he laid out the point as they were building up the Church that the departure or falling away had not happened yet and neither had the man of sin therefore the day of the Lord hadn't happened either. Paul does teach us about experiencing tribulations and so does Christ. I think the Thessalonians thought because things were harsh for them that the time was then....If I was a new believer and saw what they saw happening or even during Nero's reign, or before him...the horrors recorded that they did to Christians. I would myself ask Paul and say he is coming soon right? Christ did ask us to take up his cross. That is walking after him. He was abused, kicked, slapped, punched, spat on, beaten, made fun of, and so on and so on. Taking up the cross is not a easy 5 day work week where you try to avoid a few sins. I realize you know this, there is no doubt in my mind of that, but some do not. We are never told in the Bible once saved we will never experience harm, persecution, death, raping, etc...Just the opposite. I agree with you on the apostasy. And you are definitely correct when you said the Church has been seeing it for 2000 years. So when is it enough? When there is no truth left.  When it is all a lie. When the Church follows the law of the created instead of the creators. I think that's why God said remain firm in the faith, study to show thyself approved etc..knowing how to distinguish right from wrong. Now youre making me think about other things Fritz =P |
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Post by kjs on Apr 26, 2019 12:22:03 GMT -6
Apostasy does not mean departure. It means to forsake, it's an abandonment, a complete defection, revolt, rebellion. It comes from a word meaning a divorce.... divorce, repudiation, a bill of divorce. www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G647&t=KJVAphistēmi has little to do with Apostasia. Don't let the English translation of aphistēmi i.e. 'fall away' cause a misunderstanding just because it's similar to 'falling away.' If "a departure" was what God intended Paul to express, he would have used the word aphistēmi. Aphistēmi isn't used in 2 Thes. 2 so you shouldn't use its definition to suit your interpretation. Aphistēmi is a verb, apostasia is a noun. In 2 Thes. 2 apostasia is AN EVENT that brings on the man of sin. It has absolutely nothing to do with Christians or a defection from truth. The sad thing is the Christian definition of apostasy is incorrect, and because of that incorrect definition it has caused so many to attribute the many evils of the last days to the Church. It appears you are trying to stretch these meanings around to suit your own views
the word that was used in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 "... 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,..." (WEB)
hé Usage: the, the definite article === apostasia -- departure, defection, revolt
Even Jerome's Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of a.d. 400 renders apostasia with the "word discessio, meaning 'departure.
provides more information about how this word means departure.........
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Post by Natalie on Apr 26, 2019 13:46:01 GMT -6
I've been thinking and have read a couple of commentaries, and have some thoughts that expand on something Jamie posted above about the apostasy having connection to the man of sin, but I don't think that it has been stated clearly. It got buried for me under all the discussion on what the word means.
Jamie said:
and:
In Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians he addressed the rapture to correct some of their thinking on that. The second letter seems to be addressing the Second Coming, the Day of the Lord. It seems that they were getting people saying that the Day had come, yet they hadn't been gathered to Christ. They knew from Paul's previous teachings that the rapture comes before the Day of the Lord. But instead of addressing the rapture again, Paul addresses the coming of the Day of the Lord - giving them more details. Could the apostasy be a mass turning of people to follow the Anti-Christ before he reveals his true nature as the man of sin? We know that Jesus doesn't come back until Anti-Christ has had his time. We also know that the False Prophet causes worship of the AC. Revelation also tells us that people know that the judgments falling are from God. But instead of turning to Him and truth, they turn to the AC. Could that be the apostasy? (Paul also mentions the Day of the Lord / Second Coming in 2 The 1:9-10) |
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Post by Natalie on Apr 26, 2019 19:15:09 GMT -6
Upon pondering this section of Scripture some more, I have this question - Could the strong delusion lead to the apostasy, if the apostasy involves following of the AC? Or in other words, is the apostasy due to the strong delusion?
They refuse to believe the truth but will believe the lie. (I can add the whole passage a bit later when I am on my laptop not phone)
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Post by Natalie on Apr 26, 2019 20:15:51 GMT -6
Another thing to note. Verse 4..."Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." The word used for 'God' is the SAME word used for a false god or goddess. The word used for 'temple' is the same word that’s used for a heathen temple or shrine. According to the interlinear, The KJV translators dropped the word ‘the’ in “temple of (the) God.” The word God/god is used four times in verse 4 and shows GOD capitalized twice and twice it is not. Another major KJV blunder. One more interesting note: When the word god is NOT capitalized, the interlinear shows it like this...n_ Acc Sg m. (noun, accusative case, singular, masculine) That means when god isn't capitalized it implies a false god. Verse 4 is better interpreted like this… Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called god, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the heathen temple (Dome of the Rock) OF THE god (Allah), shewing himself that he is God. The word God… The event of the apostasy occurs in Islam and the Arab world is currently in the prophesied rebellion or apostasy of 2 Thes. 2. ISIS is a prime example. Can you go back and read your interlinear again? The interlinear capitalizes the word God that is connected to the temple, not a little g like you show.
Here is 2 Thes 2:6-7 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.
So, it seems that it is a he that is restraining. Maybe a He with a capital H? He is restraining lawlessness until he is out of the way. (There are several interpretations on this) Then lawlessness will no longer be restrained and the man of sin will have his time.
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Post by Natalie on Apr 26, 2019 20:49:04 GMT -6
This is what I came up with as how the KJV should have written it:
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called god, or that is worshipped; so that he as god sitteth in the temple of God,shewing himself that he is God.
I interpret it as: He wants to be worshiped as a god, so he sits himself in the Temple of God (so, it has to be rebuilt) and calls himself God.
Isn't that what Satan desires? To be greater than the God of Israel?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2019 21:34:41 GMT -6
This is a very interesting discussion.....where does the antichrist make himself out to be God, and I see there is more than one possibility as we understand it now, and should be open.....we should all know as believers when it happens, whether on a mobile altar at the Davidson Center on the southwest corner of Temple Mount, or on a rebuilt edifice on the Temple Mount platform itself. Let's see how events unfold in the next 2 years...
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Post by venge on Apr 27, 2019 10:16:21 GMT -6
This is a very interesting discussion.....where does the antichrist make himself out to be God, and I see there is more than one possibility as we understand it now, and should be open.....we should all know as believers when it happens, whether on a mobile altar at the Davidson Center on the southwest corner of Temple Mount, or on a rebuilt edifice on the Temple Mount platform itself. Let's see how events unfold in the next 2 years... You should ask, how does one sit in the temple of God if it’s not rebuilt. Is it possible? Has it ever been done before? If so, can it happen again. |
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Post by Natalie on Apr 27, 2019 10:35:14 GMT -6
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Post by davewatchman on May 4, 2019 11:08:44 GMT -6
This is a very interesting discussion.....where does the antichrist make himself out to be God, and I see there is more than one possibility as we understand it now, and should be open.....we should all know as believers when it happens, whether on a mobile altar at the Davidson Center on the southwest corner of Temple Mount, or on a rebuilt edifice on the Temple Mount platform itself. Let's see how events unfold in the next 2 years... You should ask, how does one sit in the temple of God if it’s not rebuilt. Is it possible? Has it ever been done before? If so, can it happen again. The reprobate mind has ascended the bench. The reprobate mind has reached the highest levels. The Highest Levels of the Most High. They have taken Moses' seat, as Jesus said the Pharisees did in Matthew 23, in the Temple of God, and are claiming to BE God. The Dragon gave His power and his throne and his great authority to the composite beast in 2015. The Apostasy, the Departure, has culminated. The Apostasy, the Departure, is a falling away from the Law. The Law of Moses, which is the Law of God. This is the REBELLION that MUST come first. Look at the rule of first usage. Strong's Number G646 matches the Greek ἀποστασία (apostasia), which occurs ONLY 2 times in 2 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV Check out this Bible word search technology from the Blue Letter Bible: www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G646&ot=KJV&t=ESV#lexSearchAct 21:21
and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs. 2Th 2:3
Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, Check out this John MacArthur audio where you can follow along with the transcript: www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/80-425/we-will-not-bowOr, check out the Youtube version: Just the first 5 or 6 minutes will do. But watch or listen to it all when you can. So many versions, So much knowledge increased, But so little time. Peaceful Sabbath. |
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Post by mike on May 6, 2019 17:23:58 GMT -6
As Jesus commented on the conditions of the hearts of the 'religious' crowds quite often throughout the gospels, so we can observe those around us in the world today.
Please review this news & information and see how you view apostasy in our times
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Post by sog on May 6, 2019 19:17:42 GMT -6
mike . I’m only 15 minutes in, but I had to stop and tell you Amen and Amen to this pastor’s view. Throughout history the most effective way to take any enemy down is from within. It’s seems to be happening at a very fast pace lately to many so-called Protestant Churches. Thankfully I go to a very Bible based church. I believe in a literal view of scripture first, and then look to allegory or metaphorical view when literal doesn’t make sense compared to the rest of scripture.
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Post by mike on May 6, 2019 19:36:12 GMT -6
You jamie see things through a different lense than I do. While I was a bit distracted when he was speaking about leaven and didn't listen intently, my reason for sharing was him reporting news. So thanks for providing your take on his application of the parable. Whether you call it heresy or I call it apostasy it is anti-christ 1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, |
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Post by sog on May 6, 2019 20:00:22 GMT -6
Leaven interpretation in the Bible - www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/leaven/Although Matthew 13:33 is talking about God’s reign permeating through dough like leaven, the rest of scripture shows leaven as sin permeating the dough that is going to destroy true Christianity. It was probably a mistake to use that passage, but overall I agree with his message of sin permeating into the church. |
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Post by mike on May 6, 2019 20:20:07 GMT -6
Leaven interpretation in the Bible - www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/leaven/Although Matthew 13:33 is talking about God’s reign permeating through dough like leaven, the rest of scripture shows leaven as sin permeating the dough that is going to destroy true Christianity. It was probably a mistake to use that passage, but overall I agree with his message of sin permeating into the church. Show me where the leaven represents sin permeating the dough that is going to destroy true Christianity in any parable Mathew 13! |
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When it is all a lie. When the Church follows the law of the created instead of the creators. 
