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Post by Natalie on May 16, 2021 11:34:01 GMT -6
And another thing: Why must the seals be completed prior to the trumpets beginning? Transition words. 
Chapter 7 begins - "After this..."
After what? After the six seals are opened.
Chapter 8 "When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence..." vs 2 "Then...seven trumpets were given to them..." vs 5 "Then the angel took the censer..." vs 6 "Now the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared to blow them."
It also shows that they don't get their trumpets until after the seventh seal is opened.
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Post by boraddict on May 16, 2021 14:12:15 GMT -6
And another thing: Why must the seals be completed prior to the trumpets beginning? Transition words.
Chapter 7 begins - "After this..."
After what? After the six seals are opened.
Chapter 8 "When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence..." vs 2 "Then...seven trumpets were given to them..." vs 5 "Then the angel took the censer..." vs 6 "Now the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared to blow them."
It also shows that they don't get their trumpets until after the seventh seal is opened.
Perhaps then the seals are in the first 3.5 years and then the trumpets are in the second 3.5 years. |
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Post by Natalie on May 16, 2021 15:23:00 GMT -6
I have heard that theory.
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Post by uscgvet on May 16, 2021 16:04:11 GMT -6
Transition words.
Chapter 7 begins - "After this..."
After what? After the six seals are opened.
Chapter 8 "When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence..." vs 2 "Then...seven trumpets were given to them..." vs 5 "Then the angel took the censer..." vs 6 "Now the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared to blow them."
It also shows that they don't get their trumpets until after the seventh seal is opened.
Perhaps then the seals are in the first 3.5 years and then the trumpets are in the second 3.5 years. I actually kinda get this vibe as I read the OT. I believe the seals are about the "Assyrian" who invades from the north, and also where famine, sword, pestilence, death, and beasts of the earth are all about ... all throughout the OT. This is about the first 3.5 years. And when the AC is indwelt with Abbadon, after his head wound is healed, that's the latter 3.5 years. |
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Post by boraddict on May 16, 2021 21:30:33 GMT -6
The problem arises with the Chapter 10 aside that is followed by the temple construction reference and the 3.5 years (Rev. 11:1-3).
1) Seals 1-6
2) Chapter 7 aside that is in the 6th seal
3) Seal 7
4) trumpets 1-6
5) Chapter 10 aside that is not in the 6th trumpet but belongs prior to the 6th seal.
6) trumpet 7
And, the angel of Chapter 10 is noted at Rev. 18:2. So it may be the case that Babylon falls (Ch. 17-18) in the seals and that is where Chapter 10 is applicable and in sync with Verse 18:2. It would mean that the temple is built during the seals but after the fall of Babylon.
It follows that Chapter 19 corresponds to Chapter 7 and that Chapter 19 is in the 6th seal; up until the war at Rev. 19:19-21.
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Post by mike on May 17, 2021 8:00:16 GMT -6
boraddictAll depends on the view of Rev and other prophecies held. When I strip away preconceived timing, without regard for a timing of the resurrection we see... For example the first seal broken reveals the rider on the white horse, who I believe is the anti-christ. If that white horse rider is the AC: - If his revealing means that there is a realization of who he really is, then this would occur 3.5 years into the trib as his identity would be become known due to his claiming to be God
- Many believe the AC is alive and not fully embodied/possessed at this time - as an example if today were 1 day shy of the AoD, we would be in the tribulation for 3.5 years already less one day
Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. 2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
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Post by boraddict on May 17, 2021 10:38:18 GMT -6
boraddict All depends on the view of Rev and other prophecies held. When I strip away preconceived timing, without regard for a timing of the resurrection we see... For example the first seal broken reveals the rider on the white horse, who I believe is the anti-christ. If that white horse rider is the AC: - If his revealing means that there is a realization of who he really is, then this would occur 3.5 years into the trib as his identity would be become known due to his claiming to be God
- Many believe the AC is alive and not fully embodied/possessed at this time - as an example if today were 1 day shy of the AoD, we would be in the tribulation for 3.5 years already less one day
Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. 2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. I am also convinced that the rider of the white horse is the AC. In fact, all the seals seem to be the actions of man and the trumpets the actions of God. There does appear to be a division between the 1st and 2nd beast as noted in Chapter 13 and that may occur at the 3.5 year mid point. Perhaps that 2nd beast is the rider of the red horse, black horse, or pale horse. However, at the pale horse the 2nd beast is clearly noted as following: ie. Rev. 6:8. Thus, the rider of the pale horse is the AC at the mid point? Or perhaps better stated, Verse 6:8 appears to be expanded upon in Chapter 13. If that expansion is correct, then the AC is perhaps wounded at the white horse, red horse, or the black horse. Please notice that the sword appears at the red horse and then again at the pale horse (Rev. 6:4, 8). And, although the sword is at the red horse the killing by the AC does not take place until the pale horse. Please notice at the red hose the killing is done by gangs, hoodlums, renegades, and so forth. So it appears that the AC is given the crown of authority at the white horse, and then the power to kill at the red horse, and then the regulation of food sources at the black horse, and then the killing by the AC actually takes place at the pale horse. Thus, four events in succession as such: 1) crown of authority given to the AC (death that is the AC as noted in Verse 8) 2) power to kill allowing the wicked people to kill (beasts of the earth that are the wicked as noted in Verse 8) 3) regulation of food killing with starvation (hunger that is another way to kill as noted in Verse 8) 4) the AC killing the populations with the sword (sword killing by the AC as noted in Verse 8) So it seems that the culmination of these four methods of killing as noted in Verse 8 are the four horses. These same four methods are referenced in Rev. 18:8 about bringing down and the destruction of Babylon. They are called using the KJV: 1) "death" that is the link to the white horse and power of the AC to bring down Babylon 2) "mourning" that is the link to the lawlessness and malicious murdering that takes place during anarchy 3) "famine" that is the hunger as noted in Verse 6:8 4) and lastly the "burning with fire" that is linked to the killing by the AC's sword Please notice that these four things as noted in Verse 18:8 are the same four things that are noted in Verse 6:8 and these are the four horses of Verses 6:1-8. So it seems that the white horse represents the crown of power given to the AC and he is called death as noted in Rev. 6:8, 18:8 2) the red horse is the lawlessness of mankind that kills indiscriminately after the AC has taken power as noted in Rev. 6:8, 18:8 as beasts of the earth and mourning 3) the black horse is the death by hunger and famine after the AC has taken power 4) the pale horse is the actual military movement of the AC to kill populations. These four things together bring about the fall of Babylon. |
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Post by Natalie on May 17, 2021 11:06:13 GMT -6
mike, boraddictSee if I can word this clearly...Could the rider in the white horse not be a single individual but something broader? None of the other riders represent singular things, but broad things (or maybe better worded - world wide things). What if the rider in the white horse is something like the One World Gov't? Conquers the world but not by force? The ten horns? Man's last attempt to govern themselves. Another tower of Babel kind of moment. Then 3.5 years into that Gov't the AC takes power.
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Post by mike on May 17, 2021 11:11:29 GMT -6
boraddict - the pale horse could be the result of the black & red Side note - interesting that Hades follows death and the authority was given to them. So the pale horse is chloros - as in green, like "are you feeling well, you look a little pale/green" How many times have I heard that  But this is also curious, am I reading it correctly...The pale horse rider was given authority to kill. The authority given to kill was by sword, death & hunger. Killing by death, what does that even mean. death is thanatos - used as death, physical or spiritual.
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Post by mike on May 17, 2021 11:27:35 GMT -6
Natalie I think its possible as is the kingdom of the beast. Most think this kingdom of the beast is one rising now Out of the people (sea) comes a beast (kingdom) that resembles characteristics of the animals in v2, but this beast is different as it once had appeared to be killed off, but has now come back into world dominion. Note that the kings are from the earth, not the sea. I think this is where some confusion comes from as we continue to read and attribute Rev 13 to a singular person, but that singular person is not identified until v.11, where this beast rises up from the land, not the sea. Now at this point perhaps this is the white horse rider, who gets 42 months to do what he wishes, and the rest of Rev 13 with the mark and control of food, etc comes along with it
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Post by uscgvet on May 17, 2021 14:39:24 GMT -6
boraddict - the pale horse could be the result of the black & red Side note - interesting that Hades follows death and the authority was given to them. So the pale horse is chloros - as in green, like "are you feeling well, you look a little pale/green" How many times have I heard that But this is also curious, am I reading it correctly...The pale horse rider was given authority to kill. The authority given to kill was by sword, death & hunger. Killing by death, what does that even mean. death is thanatos - used as death, physical or spiritual. I believe sword, death, & hunger comes from Jeremiah 15. -------- Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. -------- Jeremiah 15:2 And it shall come to pass, if they say unto thee, Whither shall we go forth? then thou shalt tell them, Thus saith the Lord; Such as are for death, to death; and such as are for the sword, to the sword; and such as are for the famine, to the famine; and such as are for the captivity, to the captivity. -------- In other places in Jeremiah, it seems that "death" could be related to pestilence or just plain destruction... like a wall falling on you or something. It's all throughout Jeremiah. -------- We can even go further back to Deuteronomy 32 4 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust. 25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs. All of this prophecy of the end of course (Revelation). |
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Post by boraddict on May 17, 2021 19:24:49 GMT -6
mike , boraddict See if I can word this clearly...Could the rider in the white horse not be a single individual but something broader? None of the other riders represent singular things, but broad things (or maybe better worded - world wide things). What if the rider in the white horse is something like the One World Gov't? Conquers the world but not by force? The ten horns? Man's last attempt to govern themselves. Another tower of Babel kind of moment. Then 3.5 years into that Gov't the AC takes power. I think you are right on point because at Rev. 17:16 the ten are in support to destroy Babylon. So as they see it, Babylon is the enemy to their success. Thus, they destroy Babylon. It follows that they must arise at the white horse and so Chapter 17 is an expansion of sorts to the white horse and perhaps the other horses as well. The end result of the four horsemen is that the fallen saints are pleading for Babylon's demise at the 5th seal (Rev. 6:9-11) to which the Lord responds at Rev. 18:20 that they should rejoice because they have been avenged. This is also restated at Rev. 19:2. So it seems that prior to the 5th seal or perhaps the 6th that the saints have been avenged in that the Lord has destroyed Babylon via the beast and the ten minions. |
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Post by yardstick on May 17, 2021 20:27:07 GMT -6
Transition words.
Chapter 7 begins - "After this..."
After what? After the six seals are opened.
Chapter 8 "When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence..." vs 2 "Then...seven trumpets were given to them..." vs 5 "Then the angel took the censer..." vs 6 "Now the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared to blow them."
It also shows that they don't get their trumpets until after the seventh seal is opened.
Perhaps then the seals are in the first 3.5 years and then the trumpets are in the second 3.5 years. There are a number of viewpoints in support of this idea. |
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Post by boraddict on May 18, 2021 4:49:23 GMT -6
Perhaps the fall of Babylon (Rev. 17:16, 18:2), and the destruction of Babylon (Rev. 18:20, 19:2), are two different things. This possibility was considered some time ago.
It follows that the fall of Babylon during the four horsemen (v. 18:2) and the call for her destruction in the 5th seal (Rev. 6:9-11) would result in the subsequent call for saints to come out of her (Rev. 18:4) and then her destruction in the 6th seal (Rev. 6:12-17).
Chapter 19 shows that she is destroyed prior to the marriage; prior to Chapter 7. That is, she must have become the habitation of devils (Rev. 18:1-3) and then destroyed (vv. 6:12-17) in the six seals of Chapter 6.
That being said then the four horsemen have something to do with the fall of Babylon, and then the saints call for her destruction in the 5th seal, followed by her destruction in the 6th seal. Thus the saints are gathered as shown in Chapters 7 and 19; after Babylon has fallen (Rev. 18:2), the saints called out of her (Rev. 18:4), and she is destroyed (Rev. 18:20).
I have always considered Babylon to be the economic system. So the fall of Babylon must be prior to; or, at the black horse because it is there that economics come into play. Perhaps it is there that Babylon becomes the habitation of devils as noted in Verse 18:2. Thus, at the black horse (Rev. 6:5-6) is the mark of the beast as noted in Chapter 13.
So we have the fall of Babylon (seals 1-2 corresponding to Chapter 17)
then the mark of the beast (seals 3-4 corresponding to Chapter 13)
the saints call for her destruction and they are called out of her, and lastly Babylon is destroyed (seals 5-6 corresponding to Chapter 18)
lastly, Chapters 7 and 19 shows the saints coming out of Babylon to the marriage and the calm at the opening of the 7th seal
After the calm at the opening of the 7th seal is the warfare as noted in Chapter 19 and the trumpets.
So, perhaps the things pertaining to Babylon are the seals and the things pertaining to the warfare are the trumpets. Please notice that although the saints go through the things pertaining to Babylon they do not go through the warfare but are sequestered.
Right now we are living through the economic fall of Babylon as it slides toward the mark of the beast era. We are in the seals 1 and 2 and when the mark of the beast is apparent then we have the famine etc. of seals 3-4.
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Post by uscgvet on May 18, 2021 11:19:04 GMT -6
I believe Micah 5 is a summary of how the 1st Seal in Rev 6 plays out.
Israel is about to be invaded by the Assyrian.
She who is pregnant brings forth.
There are two cases that seem to be a pre-Rev6 1st Seal rapture event BEFORE the Assyrian crosses the boarders for his invasion.
Micah 5:5 And this man shall be the peace, WHEN the Assyrian shall come into our land:
AND
Micah 5:6 ....thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, WHEN he cometh into our land, and WHEN he treadeth within our borders.
"this man shall be the peace" = Jesus Christ from the previous verses in Micah 5.
From reading multiple places in the OT, The Assyrian invades "Israel", scatters the "remnant" that God evidently didn't take/rescue, then the "remnant" comes back and destroys the Assyrian/"the land of Assyria"/"the land of Nimrod"/Babylon.
The interesting thing of note in Micah 5 is that God delivers up his people either before or just as the Assyrian invades.
-------------------------
When you get to Micah 7 ...
Micah 7:2 The faithful have been swept from the land;
not one upright person remains.
.... Then you get the 2nd Seal of Rev 6... basically, peace taken from the world.
Micah 7:
2 ....Everyone lies in wait to shed blood;
they hunt each other with nets.
3 Both hands are skilled in doing evil;
the ruler demands gifts,
the judge accepts bribes,
the powerful dictate what they desire—
they all conspire together.
4 The best of them is like a brier,
the most upright worse than a thorn hedge.
The day God visits you has come,
the day your watchmen sound the alarm.
Now is the time of your confusion.
5 Do not trust a neighbor;
put no confidence in a friend.
Even with the woman who lies in your embrace
guard the words of your lips.
6 For a son dishonors his father,
a daughter rises up against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
a man’s enemies are the members of his own household.
^^^
That's is certainly the 2nd seal of Revelation 6!!!
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