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Post by Natalie on Apr 15, 2021 20:33:52 GMT -6
stormy-- makes me think of the end of Rev 19:10 "For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."
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Post by boraddict on Apr 15, 2021 22:58:17 GMT -6
I believe it is simple to understand. All prophecy in all the scriptures points to Jesus Christ, right? So the words of the prophecy, in my mind at least, is the Gospel, the Good News that Jesus is coming to be our King of Kings forever. That all evil and dark intent will be gone. The blessed hope will become a blessed reality. The glory that we experience with make this horrible world fade from memory. We must keep the words of the prophecy and tell those that don't know it. I don't think one needs to be a bible scholar to understand the Good News. , you have made my point exactly because everyone will have a different idea of what the words of the prophecy are. I just noticed that you are from Kansas. I grew up in Iola Kansas and then lived in Hutchinson at one point. I was back there a few years ago (to Iola) and the town seemed so small; like a shell of it's former self. Yet, it was really in my mind because the town was once the center of my universe. Lots of family there and when I stopped to fill up the gas tank, in walks one of my cousins whom I had not seen for years. It was and still is that way. It seems that everyone knows everyone there. If you are just passing through then this does not stand out. But if I were to go there, then within the hour I will meet someone that I knew from many years ago. Many of my high school friends have passed on. I still have a brother there and a sister in Hutch. Two brothers actually but the one is out there as a true atheist you might say. He is alright to be around but at some point there will be a loss to his gain. It is just the way he looks at life; always some angle to prey upon and the looser will never be him. And, he is very good at it. For example, he needed to gain on his taxes so he found a murderer that could never get out of prison and married her to get the tax benefit. Things like that. |
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Post by boraddict on Apr 16, 2021 7:07:04 GMT -6
So please consider the prophecy as I have explained; beginning at Rev. 1:4-6.
"John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen."
1) This is an introduction wherein John addresses the seven churches that are in Asia. So it is clear that the message is to the early saints in Asia; however, since the BofR is also a work that is intended for the latter days then "the seven churches that are in Asia" is a metaphor meaning "the saints of the latter days."
2) John includes a salutation to us from the Savior that is "Grace to you and peace." This is like a formal introduction of sorts from the Savior to the early saints as well as the saints here in the latter days.
3) Included along with the Savior's salutation is that of the seven spirits "who are before his throne."
4) The Savior is referenced a second time as sending the salutation wherein the verse states "and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the first born of the dead, and ruler of kings on earth."
5) The salutation of the seven spirits is also included a second time wherein the verse states "To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood ...." This portion of the introduction gives honor from the seven spirits back to the Savior. What is interesting is that they, the seven spirits, appear to be speaking for not only themselves but the early and latter day saints as well. Thus, we all are included in the introduction of the BofR in giving a salutation to the Savior and we become coauthors to the work at this point of the book via our salutation and honor to the Savior.
Please notice the chiasmus that aligns 1 to 5, 2 to 4, and 3 as the central emphasis of the introduction.
So, 1) "the saints of the latter days" 5) "To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood ...." Again, as I mentioned above, we are included in the introduction.
2) "Grace to you and peace" 4)"from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the first born of the dead, and ruler of kings on earth."
3) And this is very interesting, that the emphasis of the introduction is not the salutation from us to the Savior as depicted in the first parallel (1&5), nor is it the salutation from the Savior to us as depicted in the second parallel (2&4), but the salutation from the seven spirits to the early and latter day saints (3). Why would the salutation from the seven spirits to us be the emphasis of the introduction? I do not know the answer to that.
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Post by uscgvet on Apr 16, 2021 7:51:32 GMT -6
Please consider Rev. 1:3 that states in chiasmus form: a) Blessed is the one b) who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, c) and blessed are those who hear, d) and who keep what is written in it, e) for the time is near. Please notice that the emphasis is upon the ones who hear and this links to Isa. 6:9 that some will hear but not understand. I think it can be said that all of us hear the words of the prophecy and do not understand. Because, if we did understand then we would all agree what the text is saying. No, but we can study and make reasonable assumptions but we do not really understand. It is for that reason that I am beginning to conclude that understanding of the BofR can not be acquired yet. And when it is acquired then we will all understand it equally; we will have an understanding in common. Recently I was reading what the LDS had to say about the BofR; just for fun. So the learned scriptorian said that the BofR was easily understood. So I thought, please explain it. To which the author of the message danced around the subjects that are included in the book. Like, where is the easy explanations I thought as I read each chapter of his message. Oh, yes, he said to refer to Joseph Smith's rewording of the text; to which I can state that Smith did not have authority to restructure the text. After all, it is a sealed book not to be rewritten; changing the 7 horns and 7 eyes (Rev. 5:6) into 12 and so forth. No cheating! The fact of the matter is that no one understands the BofR. So, how can we "keep what is written" if we do not understand what is written. However, since the message in Rev. 1:3 pertains to the prophecy of the book then it is fair to consider what the prophecy might be. I had concluded some time ago that the actual prophecy is contained in Chapters 2 and 3. That is, the entire vision or visions are not the prophecy but only what the Savior states in Chapter 2-3. His message is the jest of the book and all the rest is filler. Because, as some have pointed out, much of the BofR is found elsewhere in scripture. So I hope that we might all agree that Chapters 2 and 3 are unique to the BofR. Secondly, that the prophecy contained in these two chapters can be kept; it can be read, heard, and kept, and that we can all have this understanding in common. And that IMO is the prophecy of the book. 1) Revelation in its entirety is a testimony of Jesus Christ. Its a revealing. All of it. Revelation 1:2 to Revelation 22:20. It's a legally binding testament. Just like a last will and testament. That's why Revelation 22:18-19 exists. 2) Here is something to ponder on about your primary question. "Can we fully understand the BoR?" John 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. Here in John 15, Jesus was talking to those who stayed with him as apostles. Now read Revelation 1:1 ... servant! Now here is my question... What did Jesus reveal to John in Revelation 10:4? John knows... I don't. Your question is a difficult one to answer. |
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Post by boraddict on Apr 16, 2021 8:26:46 GMT -6
1) Revelation in its entirety is a testimony of Jesus Christ. Its a revealing. All of it. Revelation 1:2 to Revelation 22:20. It's a legally binding testament. Just like a last will and testament. That's why Revelation 22:18-19 exists. 2) Here is something to ponder on about your primary question. "Can we fully understand the BoR?" John 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. Here in John 15, Jesus was talking to those who stayed with him as apostles. Now read Revelation 1:1 ... servant! Now here is my question... What did Jesus reveal to John in Revelation 10:4? John knows... I don't. Your question is a difficult one to answer. Thank you uscgvet, and it seems to me that the answer to your item 2 above is that we are not supposed to understand the BofR and that is the whole point of the book. That it is written in such a way that it never has an ending; because, there is no interpretation that is final. For as one interpretation is concluded then another open up and there is no end in sight. It is for that reason that I have concluded that the book is written in such a way that it pulls us in and never lets us out until we find the prophecy; and that prophecy is in Chapters 2 and 3. That is the ending to the BofR. Because, if you do not find the ending through the ongoing cycles of interpretations then the ending can and will never be found. Until that is, until the prophecy is found and that is the ending to the BofR. Also, in considering Verse 10:4 please notice that the angel of chapter 10 is the seventh angel. Do you agree with this conclusion? |
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Post by uscgvet on Apr 16, 2021 8:56:17 GMT -6
Thank you uscgvet , and it seems to me that the answer to your item 2 above is that we are not supposed to understand the BofR and that is the whole point of the book. That it is written in such a way that it never has an ending; because, there is no interpretation that is final. For as one interpretation is concluded then another open up and there is no end in sight. It is for that reason that I have concluded that the book is written in such a way that it pulls us in and never lets us out until we find the prophecy; and that prophecy is in Chapters 2 and 3. That is the ending to the BofR. Because, if you do not find the ending through the ongoing cycles of interpretations then the ending can and will never be found. Until that is, until the prophecy is found and that is the ending to the BofR. Also, in considering Verse 10:4 please notice that the angel of chapter 10 is the seventh angel. Do you agree with this conclusion? The purpose of prophecy is authentication that the message is from God. Daniel didn't understand what was given to him, he was a servant and was just supposed to write the prophecy down for God. When it comes to be, it proves "I AM". We as believers are told that "blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.", keepeth doesn't necessarily mean understand, it just means hold them in your heart and believe them. We search the scriptures to verify what people say about them are true or not. I think our full understanding of them will only come when we are glorified in Christ at his 2nd coming. |
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Post by boraddict on Apr 16, 2021 14:20:29 GMT -6
Thank you uscgvet , and it seems to me that the answer to your item 2 above is that we are not supposed to understand the BofR and that is the whole point of the book. That it is written in such a way that it never has an ending; because, there is no interpretation that is final. For as one interpretation is concluded then another open up and there is no end in sight. It is for that reason that I have concluded that the book is written in such a way that it pulls us in and never lets us out until we find the prophecy; and that prophecy is in Chapters 2 and 3. That is the ending to the BofR. Because, if you do not find the ending through the ongoing cycles of interpretations then the ending can and will never be found. Until that is, until the prophecy is found and that is the ending to the BofR. Also, in considering Verse 10:4 please notice that the angel of chapter 10 is the seventh angel. Do you agree with this conclusion? The purpose of prophecy is authentication that the message is from God. Daniel didn't understand what was given to him, he was a servant and was just supposed to write the prophecy down for God. When it comes to be, it proves "I AM". We as believers are told that "blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.", keepeth doesn't necessarily mean understand, it just means hold them in your heart and believe them. We search the scriptures to verify what people say about them are true or not. I think our full understanding of them will only come when we are glorified in Christ at his 2nd coming. I understand what you are saying but there must be a general concisions as to what the sayings of the prophecy are. Because, your understandings concerning the prophecy is different than the next guys. And, since the verse clearly states that we are to keep the sayings of the prophecy (Rev. 22:7) and not of the entire bible but the book wherein the verse is found; the BofR, then there must be some access to the prophecy in the BofR that we can understand in common. Also, as I said, the prophecy is not open to interpretation; because, in order for us to keep the prophecy then we must understand the prophecy, an understanding in common. I realize this may be a mute point to many but this "easy to find prophecy" having a "simple language" so that we can understand the sayings of the prophecy is a requirement for the blessing. The only part of the BofR that satisfies this requirement is Chapters 2 and 3. You are maintaining that the prophecy is covered throughout the script of the entire bible like having a testimony of Jesus Christ that is the spirit of prophecy. That is a good argument but the testimony of Jesus in the BofR is metaphor for living till Lord Jesus comes and I can explain that at another time. But what it means under that umbrella is that Rev. 22:7 reads as follows: "And behold, I am coming soon. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book (to live till I come)." However, the people must know what the prophecy is in order to live till he comes and that is covered in Chapters 2 and 3. That is, the blessing is to live till Jesus comes is derived from the words of that prophecy that is the testimony of Jesus to us. |
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Post by stormyknight on Apr 16, 2021 14:42:02 GMT -6
a little disclaimer, I've rewritten and edited this post several times this morning today as I've been constantly interrupted. Work! good grief! lol I get what you're saying, boraddict , after all it does say in the third verse of Rev. 1, "Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near." So that seems to point to what John is currently writing. Also, in Rev. 22, Jesus warns that if anyone adds to the words of the prophecy of this book, "God will add to him the plagues described in this book". Not all the books of scripture contain plagues, so that again points to this Book of Revelation. I don't know, boraddict, sometimes I think I'm fully confident about something I've learned and then 'poof'...  I am still confident, though, that all scripture, and all prophecy therein, points to Jesus Christ. I am looking forward to episode three of season 2 of The Chosen. My wife and I watch it together and so our time to do so gets limited. We watched episode two last night and wow. That scene where Matthew and Philip are walking together and talking and Matthew is not 'getting it'? He was 'uncomfortable' that people knew he was a tax collector. Philip explained that people of this world judge us by our past, but "am" is all that matters. My jaw hit the floor. "YEEESSSSSS!!!" I look over and my wife is literally crying, holding the edge of a blanket to her chest. I asked what's the matter and she said of Matthew, "That's me!! I worry about what people think too much!" So I asked if she caught what Philip said and she had me back up the video and play it again. The part about "am" is all that matters. We paused it for a bit and talked about it. That what we are right now is all that matters. If we are following/believing/praising/thanking Jesus for our very being, then that's all that matters because He will take care of us. Who better than the very Creator of the universe to have our back? |
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Post by uscgvet on Apr 16, 2021 17:14:40 GMT -6
I understand what you are saying but there must be a general concisions as to what the sayings of the prophecy are. Because, your understandings concerning the prophecy is different than the next guys. And, since the verse clearly states that we are to keep the sayings of the prophecy (Rev. 22:7) and not of the entire bible but the book wherein the verse is found; the BofR, then there must be some access to the prophecy in the BofR that we can understand in common. Also, as I said, the prophecy is not open to interpretation; because, in order for us to keep the prophecy then we must understand the prophecy, an understanding in common. I realize this may be a mute point to many but this "easy to find prophecy" having a "simple language" so that we can understand the sayings of the prophecy is a requirement for the blessing. The only part of the BofR that satisfies this requirement is Chapters 2 and 3. You are maintaining that the prophecy is covered throughout the script of the entire bible like having a testimony of Jesus Christ that is the spirit of prophecy. That is a good argument but the testimony of Jesus in the BofR is metaphor for living till Lord Jesus comes and I can explain that at another time. But what it means under that umbrella is that Rev. 22:7 reads as follows: "And behold, I am coming soon. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book (to live till I come)." However, the people must know what the prophecy is in order to live till he comes and that is covered in Chapters 2 and 3. That is, the blessing is to live till Jesus comes is derived from the words of that prophecy that is the testimony of Jesus to us. Understanding visions and dreams normally comes from prophets of God. The dream is sourced from God, and so is the understanding of it. Daniel 2, Daniel was given the understanding to translate the dream to King Nebby. Joseph was given the understanding to translate the dreams he was given. Luke 24 is proof that only God reveals what these visions mean. Jesus said that all the prophets, Moses, and Psalms were about him... Ok. What about Revelation? Do we apply Luke 24 to understanding Revelation? Well, it came from Jesus but we didn't really get much explanation on the symbolism. It's not like Daniel received the exact meaning of Revelation and wrote it down like he did with King Neb. In my humble opinion, I think the understanding of the Revelation vision as a whole will be revealed through the same way all the other vision's understanding have been revealed.... by MORE dreams and visions from God (Acts 2 and Joel 2) outpouring of the Holy Spirit for dreams and visions. To-date, I don't think there have been any real credible true dreams/visions from God that gave full understanding of Revelation to the same degree that Daniel or Amos or Isaiah or John etc received from God ... since Christ went to Heaven... Or at least, none that I'm aware of. Maybe there were, but were not written down and shared with the body of Christ. The Holy Spirit guides us in our studies, but a true vision, a true dream, one that would turn you ghostly white in your bed like it did Daniel, where he was ordered by God to write it down, one where it would fully translate Revelation and/or Genesis... it just hasn't happened yet. IMHO. Edit: just a side note. I don't think we'll have to wait another lifetime to find out. Christ has been gone for only 1991 years if it was 30 AD that He ascended. If it was 30 AD, I think Jeremiah 27 & 28 clues us into it being 2000 years after his ascension that he will return. |
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Post by boraddict on Apr 16, 2021 20:58:17 GMT -6
uscgvet, stormyknight, are you guys really going to let me get by with that argument. Natalie, would have hammered me hard on that. Really? You missed it? Okay, I got a free pass! Thank you.
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Post by Natalie on Apr 16, 2021 21:14:53 GMT -6
Lol bora! I was busy today but will catch up on the conversation tomorrow.  |
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Post by uscgvet on Apr 16, 2021 21:36:45 GMT -6
uscgvet , stormyknight , are you guys really going to let me get by with that argument. Natalie , would have hammered me hard on that. Really? You missed it? Okay, I got a free pass! Thank you. I suppose I missed it. No biggie. Wasn't really trying to argue. I get that you're trying to say that we can agree on Chapter 2/3 of the letters to the churches in asia as being "the prophecy we can keep" because it's more "understandable". The rest of the book goes into hyper symbolism and Hebraic style of layering. I just find it difficult to omit the rest of the book as "the prophecy" we can keep, because we can still keep it without fully understanding it as of yet. |
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Post by Natalie on Apr 17, 2021 13:49:18 GMT -6
ok, boraddict , So, why do you add what you did? How do you see Him saying that? We can't just add stuff to Scripture.
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Post by stormyknight on Apr 19, 2021 7:18:15 GMT -6
uscgvet , stormyknight , are you guys really going to let me get by with that argument. Natalie , would have hammered me hard on that. Really? You missed it? Okay, I got a free pass! Thank you. I'm sorry, boraddict, I must have missed something. Friday was a bad day for me. Saturday and Sunday were like ordered chaos, so now I need to go back and read the thread and get back on the train of thought. |
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Post by boraddict on May 16, 2021 10:48:37 GMT -6
And another thing: Why must the seals be completed prior to the trumpets beginning?
Thus, the four horsemen (seals) could result in the four trumpets. And, the fifth seal could result in the fifth trumpet, and the sixth seal could result in the sixth trumpet. Then, the Chapter 7 intermission could result in the Chapter 10 intermission. Last but not least, the seventh seal at Rev. 8:1-2 could correspond to the temple in Rev. 11:1-3. This could be as I noted in a previous post the Abomination of Desolation. The flow of events could be as follows:
Rev. 6:1-8 causes Rev. 8:6-13 (four seals cause four trumpets)
Rev. 6:9-11 causes Rev. 9:1-12 (fifth seal cause fifth trumpet)
Rev. 6:12-17 causes Rev. 9:13-21 (sixth seal cause sixth trumpet)
Chapter 7 intermission causes the Chapter 10 intermission
Rev. 8:1-2 causes Rev. 11:1-3 and the construction of the temple
Lastly, the Abomination of Desolation that causes the seventh trumpet
Something like that.
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I am still confident, though, that all scripture, and all prophecy therein, points to Jesus Christ.