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Post by boraddict on Mar 24, 2021 19:22:47 GMT -6
A plain reading of Revelation chapter 7 shows believers in Messiah from each of the tribes of national Israel. Yes, that would make them Christians. But they are of the blood lines of Rueben, Gad, Naphtali, etc. God knows who belongs to each tribe. A couple of days ago there was an article posted in the shoutbox and part of it talked about the preparation of the Levite priests going on in Israel. They have found that those who descended from Levi have a specific genetic marker that no one else has. So, the tribe of Levi is not lost. Gentiles do not become part of national (physical) Israel. If you want to call them spiritual Israel, I think one can make a case for that. But spiritual Israel is not divided up into tribes. They are one in Christ. There is a distinction between physical Israel (the 12 tribes) and a spiritual Israel. I still know of no Scripture that says the church becomes Israel or Ephraim. I do not have confidence in the genetic evidence to which you referred because of the bias that may be involved in the work. If that study was let's say done in a non Jewish lab by non Jewish people then it would have greater validity. However, it sounds like the authors of the study were supporting a narrative. Who is to say what the genetics of the Levite priests were prior to and after the Babylonian invasion (587 B. C.). That genetic science would have to be pretty good before I would sign on to believing that; lot's of variables there. I remember the LDS were claiming that the American Indians were descendants of Judah until the science proved otherwise. However, those comparisons were between living people if I understand correctly. But with the Levite priests, we are talking about going to a credible source and not something that might have been polluted by foreign DNA. Don't think the science proves that the Levite priests have the same markers as the Levite priests of 587 B. C. If so, then where did they get the samples, etc. One problem with claiming that only Judah has blood of the 12 tribes of Israel is that the Assyrians carried away the people of the northern tribes and those were lost to their national identity. Not only that, but they interbred into other populations. So to say that only Judah has the blood of the 12 tribes of Israel is to paint with a broad brush. It has been 2700 years and during that time some blood line from the northern tribes has descended down to us in other populations; and not only in Judah. So while I agree that all 12 tribes probably are represented in the blood of Judah, it does not negate the point that the blood of all 12 tribes have probably been disseminated down through a multitude of populations here upon the earth. I have not had time to do an in-depth search for that evidence; that the church is Israel. Not becomes Israel, but is Israel.  Secondly, that Judah is not Israel but Ephraim is. Also, I still do not understand why Dan has been left out of the count in Rev. 7. I have thought that Dan was replaced by Manasseh and that Joseph represents Ephraim; and that is perfectly reasonable. But if that is the case, then Ephraim is one of the 12 tribes, having been called Joseph in the count. So my point that I was making to you about Judah being in the count also applies to Ephraim. That is, both Judah and Ephraim are in the count of 12 but Dan is not. Big puzzle. |
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Post by Natalie on Mar 24, 2021 19:40:35 GMT -6
ok, so maybe you can get back to me when you have evidence that the Bible says the church is Israel. Because I haven't found it. And no I didn't say Judah had the blood of all twelve tribes. I said national Israel would consist of the bloodlines of all 12 tribes. Just like before the split into two kingdoms when all 12 were known as Israel collectively. You and I use the term Jew in different ways, but I was trying to avoid that by calling them national or physical Israel. |
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Post by Natalie on Mar 24, 2021 19:48:21 GMT -6
check out this post in another thread as one thought to why Dan was left out... board.unsealed.org/post/13302We are going through Revelation in my Sunday School class. My teacher said that some commentators see Dan being left out because of idol worship (it's in the book of Judges somewhere) But in Ezekiel when it talks about the land allotments during the Millennial Kingdom, Dan is listed. So, if those commentators are correct there is still hope and blessing and redemption. |
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Post by boraddict on Mar 25, 2021 12:21:02 GMT -6
check out this post in another thread as one thought to why Dan was left out... board.unsealed.org/post/13302We are going through Revelation in my Sunday School class. My teacher said that some commentators see Dan being left out because of idol worship (it's in the book of Judges somewhere) But in Ezekiel when it talks about the land allotments during the Millennial Kingdom, Dan is listed. So, if those commentators are correct there is still hope and blessing and redemption. Thank you Natalie , and that is an interesting point made by kjs. Please consider the order of the 12 tribes in Genesis and Revelation | Gen. 29:31-35:18 | Gen. 49:3-7 | Rev. 7:5-8 | | 1) Reuben, Leah 1 | 1) Reuben, Leah 1 | 4) Juda, Leah 4 | | 2) Simeon, Leah 2 | 2) Simeon, Leah 2 | 1) Reuben, Leah 1 | | 3) Levi, Leah 3 | 3) Levi, Leah 3 | 7) Gad, Leah via Zilpah 1 | | 4) Judah, Leah 4 | 4) Judah, Leah 4 | 8) Asher, Leah via Zilpah 2 | | 5) Dan, Rachel via Bilah 1 | 10) Zebulun, Leah 6 | 6) Nepthalim, Rachel via Bilah 2 | | 6) Naphtali, Rachel via Bilah 2 | 9) Issachar, Leah 5 | Manasses, Rachel via Joseph replaces Rachel via Bilah 1 | | 7) Gad, Leah via Zilpah 1 | 5) Dan, Rachel via Bilah 1 | 2) Simeon, Leah 2 | | 8) Asher, Leah via Zilpah 2 | 7) Gad, Leah via Zilpah 1 | 3) Levi, Leah 3 | | 9) Issachar, Leah 5 | 8) Asher,Leah via Zilpah 2 | 9) Issachar, Leah 5 | | 10) Zebulun, Leah 6 | 6) Nephtali, Rachel via Bilah 2 | 10) Zebulun, Leah 6 | | 11) Joseph, Rachel 1 | 11) Joseph, Rachel 1 | 11) Joseph, Rachel 1 | | 12) Benjamin, Rachel 2 | 12) Benjamin, Rachel 2 | 12) Benjamin, Rachel 2 |
Please notice in the Rev. 7:5-8 order that Benjamin links to Judah in the chiasmus as follows: 4) Judah, Leah 4
1) Reuben, Leah 1
7) Gad, Leah via Zilpah 1
8) Asher, Leah via Zilpah 2 6) Nepthalim, Rachel via Bilah 2
Manasses, Rachel via Joseph Bilah 1
2) Simeon, Leah 2
3) Levi, Leah 3 9) Issachar, Leah 5
10) Zebulun, Leah 6
11) Joseph, Rachel 1
12) Benjamin, Rachel 2The link between Judah and Benjamin is a literal because Benjamin was almost destroyed and forced to seek refuge in Judah. So they became the southern kingdom in Israel. Please notice the order that is Leah, Leah, Leah, Leah, Rachel, Rachel, Leah, Leah, Leah, Leah, Rachel, Rachel. Also, please notice the adoption that within the family. Rachel claims Bilah's children, and Leah claims Zilpah's children, and Jacob claims Joseph's children. It may be the case that Bilah claims Manassas in the family. Because, Manassas replaces Dan in the order. That is, since both Dan and Manassas are claimed by Rachel. |
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Post by boraddict on Mar 29, 2021 13:32:57 GMT -6
Please consider 2 Kings 17:5-18 as follows:
"Then the king of Assyria invaded all the land and came to Samaria, and for three years he besieged it."
The Fall of Israel
6 "In the ninth year of Hoshea, the king of Assyria captured Samaria, and he carried the Israelites away to Assyria and placed them in Halah, and on the Habor, the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes."
Exile Because of Idolatry.
The Lord warned both the northern kingdom, Israel, and the southern kingdom, Judah.
7-13 "And this occurred because the people of Israel had sinned against the Lord their God, who had brought them up out of the land of Egypt from under the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and had feared other gods and walked in the customs of the nations whom the Lord drove out before the people of Israel, hand in the customs that the kings of Israel had practiced. And the people of Israel did secretly against the Lord their God things that were not right. They built for themselves high places in all their towns, from watchtower to fortified city. They set up for themselves pillars and Asherim on every high hill and under every green tree, and there they made offerings on all the high places, as the nations did whom the Lord carried away before them. And they did wicked things, provoking the Lord to anger, and they served idols, of which the Lord had said to them, “You shall not do this.” Yet the Lord warned Israel and Judah by every prophet and every seer, saying, “Turn from your evil ways and keep my commandments and my statutes, in accordance with all the Law that I commanded your fathers, and that I sent to you by my servants the prophets.”
14-18 "But they would not listen, but were stubborn, as their fathers had been, who did not believe in the Lord their God. They despised his statutes and his covenant that he made with their fathers and the warnings that he gave them. They went after false idols sand became false, and they followed the nations that were around them, concerning whom the Lord had commanded them that they should not do like them. And they abandoned all the commandments of the Lord their God, and made for themselves metal images of two calves; and they made an Asherah and worshiped all the host of heaven and served Baal. And they burned their sons and their daughters as offerings and used divination and omens and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the Lord, provoking him to anger. Therefore the Lord was very angry with Israel and removed them out of his sight. None was left but the tribe of Judah only."
This scripture tells us that the northern tribes were taken and only Judah was left. I realize that the predominant doctrine of today is that Judah represents all twelve tribes. However, this above is evidence supporting that Judah is one single tribe and not all twelve. The only exception being that Benjamin blended with Judah otherwise they (Benjamin) would have been wiped from existence by the northern tribes. Benjamin got a real spanking by the family.
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Post by Natalie on Mar 29, 2021 15:15:08 GMT -6
But the tribes didn't cease to exist because in the NT we have: Anna (Luke 2:36) was from the tribe of Asher Zechariah and Elisabeth—and therefore John the Baptist—are from the tribe of Levi (Luke 1:5). Paul, who knows he is from the tribe of Benjamin (Romans 11:1) James addresses his epistle “to the twelve tribes scattered among the nations” (James 1:1).
Consider the book of Ezra. It takes place after the Assyrian and Babylonian exile.
Ezra 2:70 Now the priests, the Levites, some of the people, the singers, the gatekeepers, and the temple servants lived in their towns, and all the rest of Israel in their towns.
Ezra 6:17 They offered at the dedication of this house of God 100 bulls, 200 rams, 400 lambs, and as a sin offering for all Israel 12 male goats, according to the number of the tribes of Israel.
It doesn't sound like it was just people from Judah who returned but that all Israel (all 12 sons of Jacob) were represented.
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Post by boraddict on Mar 29, 2021 20:08:23 GMT -6
But the tribes didn't cease to exist because in the NT we have: Anna (Luke 2:36) was from the tribe of Asher Zechariah and Elisabeth—and therefore John the Baptist—are from the tribe of Levi (Luke 1:5). Paul, who knows he is from the tribe of Benjamin (Romans 11:1) James addresses his epistle “to the twelve tribes scattered among the nations” (James 1:1).
Consider the book of Ezra. It takes place after the Assyrian and Babylonian exile.
Ezra 2:70 Now the priests, the Levites, some of the people, the singers, the gatekeepers, and the temple servants lived in their towns, and all the rest of Israel in their towns.
Ezra 6:17 They offered at the dedication of this house of God 100 bulls, 200 rams, 400 lambs, and as a sin offering for all Israel 12 male goats, according to the number of the tribes of Israel.
It doesn't sound like it was just people from Judah who returned but that all Israel (all 12 sons of Jacob) were represented.
Yes you have a very very valid point. The fact that Anna was from Asher supports that: 1) her ancestry mixed with Judah before the Assyria diaspora, or, 2) her ancestry migrated back to Judah sometime after the Assyrian diaspora, or, 3) her ancestry was brought back to Samaria by the Assyrians and that she was a Samaritan. There may be other possibilities but that fact that she was from Asher strongly supports that all the 12 tribes were ether represented in Judah or Samaria or both. However, since the Assyrians did not bring all the people of Israel back to Samaria, or that all the people of Israel did not migrate back to Judah on their own, which would have never been allowed; then the majority of Israel from the Assyrian invasion had to have remained in Assyria as referenced in Isa. 27:13, 43:5-6. The tribe of Levi is easy to explain since that tribe was scattered among all the tribes; both in Judah and Israel. Benjamin is also easy to explain because Israel wanted to wipe them out and Benjamin found refuge in Judah. James' epistle supports that the 12 tribes are scattered in the nations of the world. At the time of Ezra the Samarians that were a mix of the people translocated by the Assyrians as well as some returned of Israel by the Assyrians were in the land of Israel; the northern kingdom. So while it is safe to say that Ezra was referring to Judah, it may also be the case that he was referring to the Samaritans as well. So while the sin offering was made for all 12 tribes, the fact that goats were used indicates that the 12 tribes were in rebellion; because, goats represent Israel, both Judah, Ephraim, that are in rebellion. Had Ezra sacrificed sheep then it would show that the 12 tribes were not in rebellion. So in this sin offering the 12 tribes of Israel were represented as being in rebellion via the sacrifice against their sin. Is Ezra categorically representing that only Judah and those returning from the Babylonian diaspora are included in the offering, or is he saying that all the descendants of Israel, both Judah and Ephraim, are represented in the sin offering? Remember, all the people of Israel were not returned by the Assyrians to Samaria, nor did all those people return on their own. So, some of that blood line was not in the land of Israel nor the land of Judah. |
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Post by Natalie on Mar 29, 2021 20:25:42 GMT -6
Do you have Scripture to support this?
Reading through Leviticus 4:27-35 a kid (goat) or a lamb were both acceptable as sin offerings. And Ezra says nothing about them being in rebellion. They were offering what was required in the Law as a sin offering.
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Post by boraddict on Mar 29, 2021 23:24:10 GMT -6
Do you have Scripture to support this?
Reading through Leviticus 4:27-35 a kid (goat) or a lamb were both acceptable as sin offerings. And Ezra says nothing about them being in rebellion. They were offering what was required in the Law as a sin offering.
A goat is used to represent rebellious Israel and an example of this is Matt. 25:31-46 wherein the goats are separated from the sheep. In the parable the nations are both 1) the nations of the world but also 2) the 12 nations of Israel. Also in the parable the sheep are those people who lovingly care about others. So although an individual might be born into the house of Israel that does not guarantee salvation. Salvation is established via a commitment to follow Christ (Isa. 1:16-20). I knew that you would call me on this since you have the eyes of an eagle. I will see what I can find; however, whenever I see the word "goat" I substitute in "rebellious Israel." Another chapter that I have not worked on yet is Dan. 8 wherein the goat which is rebellious (?) confronts the ram that is a sheep and generally the good guys. I have wondered about this chapter for years but not yet taken an interest. So above I guess that I should have included "IMO" but if Ezra was going to use an acceptable sin offering then sheep would have also been used. However, he specifically used goats which indicated to me that he is making a hidden statement about the offering in relation to the house of Israel in general. Not just the people with him but anyone of Israel (all 12 tribes) no matter where they were. And, this means that since they are not with him then they were or are in rebellion. Were in rebellion prior to the Assyrian and Babylonian invasions and some still in rebellion at the time of the sacrafice. |
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Post by lionofgod on Mar 30, 2021 2:46:21 GMT -6
The beauty of God's inspiration at work! His word is a multi-layered work. The more light you shine on it, the more you see. Just as our Lord has revealed Himself in 3 separate manners, yet all the same, so his words act accordingly. Several truths layered amongst each other. Each applying to a separate thing and a separate time/place and message, Yet all one in the whole! Who but God could write such a book of laws and statutes and judgements, and have it apply as much thousands of years later?! I was recently reminded of such language when discussing "Jewish". Has several meanings to different people, but all are encompassed into the one word. Bible does that a lot. Israel, is one. The beauty of the bible is there is seldom just one True answer there. Three people can be right about the same passage meaning three different things. Isn't that awesome! boraddict, Natalie, |
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Post by Natalie on Mar 30, 2021 8:06:36 GMT -6
boraddict Daniel is told who the goat and ram are. I'll let you find it. 
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Post by boraddict on Mar 30, 2021 20:25:33 GMT -6
The following is Dan. 8 in chiasmus form:
1 In the third year of the reign of King Belshazzar a vision appeared to me, Daniel, after that which appeared to me at the first.
2 And I saw in the vision; and when I saw, I was in Susa the citadel, which is in the province of Elam. And I saw in the vision, and I was at the Ulai canal.
3 I raised my eyes and saw, and behold, a ram standing on the bank of the canal. It had two horns, and both horns were high, but one was higher than the other, and the higher one came up last.
Please note that Daniel was in Babylon at the time of the vision (v. 3), so the ram in verse 3-4 is Israel in Babylon under the rise of the Meads and Persians as noted in Verse 20, "the two horns, these are the kings of Media and Persia."
4 I saw the ram charging westward and northward and southward. No beast could stand before him, and there was no one who could rescue from his power. He did as he pleased and became great.
Please notice that the ram does not charge to the east (v. 4) because he has come from the east via the release of Cyrus the Persian.
5 As I was considering, behold, a male goat came from the west across the face of the whole earth, without touching the ground. And the goat had a conspicuous horn between his eyes.
In Verse 5 we have rebellious Israel (the goat) coming from the west and this is the conqueror Alexander the Great as referenced in Verse 21 "And the goat is the king of Greece." Thus above, Daniel is in Babylon and Israel lives through the Mead take over and the subsequent Persians until released by Cyrus. Then the Greeks invade to put down the Persians.
6 He came to the ram with the two horns, which I had seen standing on the bank of the canal, and he ran at him in his powerful wrath.
7 I saw him come close to the ram, and he was enraged against him and struck the ram and broke his two horns. And the ram had no power to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground and trampled on him. And there was no one who could rescue the ram from his power.
Please notice that the two horns of the ram were broken and that is the fall of the Mead / Persian empire. Again, the ram is Israel that continues to exist in the land of Israel during the Greek invasion.
8 Then the goat became exceedingly great, but when he was strong, the great horn was broken, and instead of it there came up four conspicuous horns toward the four winds of heaven.
Please notice in Verse 8 that Alexander the Great has fallen and his kingdom is divided between his 4 generals.
9 Out of one of them came a little horn, which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the glorious land.
Now in Verse 9 a little horn grew out of one of the four Greek ruled kingdoms. Since this little horn is set against the south, east, and the glorious land, then this little horn is in the western part of the Greek ruled kingdom. Looks like Francis to me.
10 It grew great, even to the host of heaven. And some of the host and some of the stars it threw down to the ground and trampled on them.
11 It became great, even as great as the Prince of the host. And the regular burnt offering was taken away from him, and the place of his sanctuary was overthrown.
12 And a host will be given over to it together with the regular burnt offering because of transgression, and it will throw truth to the ground, and it will act and prosper.
13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to the one who spoke, “For how long is the vision concerning the regular burnt offering, the transgression that makes desolate, and the giving over of the sanctuary and host to be trampled underfoot?”
14 And he said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state.”
15 When I, Daniel, had seen the vision, I sought to understand it. And behold, there stood before me one having the appearance of a man.
The central position of the chapter is the return of the Savior (v. 15) wherein the sanctuary is restored (v. 14) here in the latter days (v. 19).
16 And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of the Ulai, and it called, “Gabriel, make this man understand the vision.”
17 So he came near where I stood. And when he came, I was frightened band fell on my face. But he said to me, “Understand, O son of man, that the vision is for the time of the end.”
18 And when he had spoken to me, I fell into a deep sleep with my face to the ground. But he touched me and made me stand up.
19 He said, “Behold, I will make known to you what shall be at the latter end of the indignation, for it refers to the appointed time of the end.
20 As for the ram that you saw with the two horns, these are the kings of Media and Persia.
21 And the goat is the king of Greece. And the great horn between his eyes is the first king.
22 As for the horn that was broken, in place of which four others arose, four kingdoms shall arise from his nation, but not with his power.
23 And at the latter end of their kingdom, when the transgressors have reached their limit, a king of bold face, one who understands riddles, shall arise.
24 His power shall be great—but not by his own power; and he shall cause fearful destruction and shall succeed in what he does, and destroy mighty men and the people who are the saints.
25 By his cunning he shall make deceit prosper under his hand, and in his own mind he shall become great. Without warning he shall destroy many. And he shall even rise up against the Prince of princes, and he shall be broken—but by no human hand.
26 The vision of the evenings and the mornings that has been told is true, but seal up the vision, for it refers to many days from now.”
27 And I, Daniel, was overcome and lay sick for some days. Then I rose and went about the king’s business, but I was appalled by the vision and did not understand it.
This Chapter appears to be about the return of the Savior.
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Post by mike on Mar 31, 2021 6:16:56 GMT -6
boraddict - You indicate the ram is Israel. I have never heard this nor does it appear to align with the historical text or records. Israel was in captivity and not conquering anywhere at this time or after. So I checked some commentaries and provided them and links to them below. Please reconsider your assessment. Albert Barnes NotesEllicottWesley
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Post by boraddict on Mar 31, 2021 7:37:19 GMT -6
mike , yes I know what you are saying and I have never wanted to get into this chapter because of he bizarre imagery. However, the chapter seems to span the entire captivity of Judah from the beginning as stated in Dan. 1:1-2 to the final release as shown in Chapter 12. I have taken my analysis from the perspective that the ram represents Israel and the goat rebellious Israel. That being said, then Israel under Mead/Persian captivity is the ram with the two horns. Then we are told the ram is attacked and the victor is Alexander the Great and this is clearly historical information. That is, the world power presiding over Israel changed from Persia to Greece when Alexander conquered Persia. Since Persia was conquered and Israel was part of Persia then Israel was conquered as well. Thus, the ram was conquered by Greece removing the two horns from the ram. Then we are told about the four generals that followed Alexander presiding over Israel, and lastly that someone rises within one of the "western" of the four domains. This last someone is dominant just prior to the return of the Savior. To me, the most interesting part of the imagery in this chapter is that Alexander is called a goat that is rebellious Israel. This implies that Alexander has some of the blood of Ephraim as his ancestry. Just saying. From your last posting the conclusions show that the two horns in Chapter 8 are Media and Persia. Also, that the ram comes from that area and goes west, north, and south; but not east. We know that Judah went west from Cyrus and from there perhaps expanded to the north and south. You know, as the years went by. One thing that is evident is that the ram was not destroyed but only his horns. Likewise, Media and Persia were removed from Judah but Judah survived.
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Post by mike on Mar 31, 2021 8:06:45 GMT -6
mike , yes I know what you are saying and I have never wanted to get into this chapter because of he bizarre imagery. However, the chapter seems to span the entire captivity of Judah from the beginning as stated in Dan. 1:1-2 to the final release as shown in Chapter 12. I have taken my analysis from the perspective that the ram represents Israel and the goat rebellious Israel. That being said, then Israel under Mead/Persian captivity is the ram with the two horns. Then we are told the ram is attacked and the victor is Alexander the Great and this is clearly historical information. That is, the world power presiding over Israel changed from Persia to Greece when Alexander conquered Persia. Since Persia was conquered and Israel was part of Persia then Israel was conquered as well. Thus, the ram was conquered by Greece removing the two horns from the ram. Then we are told about the four generals that followed Alexander presiding over Israel, and lastly that someone rises within one of the "western" of the four domains. This last someone is dominant just prior to the return of the Savior. To me, the most interesting part of the imagery in this chapter is that Alexander is called a goat that is rebellious Israel. This implies that Alexander has some of the blood of Ephraim as his ancestry. Just saying. BORA - so you are saying unfaithful Israel was in captivity and rebellious Israel came and conquered them? Israel was in Persia when conquered by Greece. Is it possible some of the Israelite women were mixed (married) with the Persian men? An interesting thing to consider is that Alexander is certainly who is spoken of...BUT we encounter this which says it cant be Alexander could it: This is a fulfillment in Alexander but a type of the future Anti-Christ as well. Predicting history in advance TWICE! This predicts Alexander first then points to the ultimate culmination |
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Secondly, that Judah is not Israel but Ephraim is.
