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Post by boraddict on Mar 19, 2021 20:43:31 GMT -6
lionofgod , boraddict , rondonmonson , mike , benel , the silliness that I was referring to was the doctrine that an anti-Christ beast could arise from the dead under his own power. That doctrine implies that he, the anti-Christ beast, has power like Jesus whom raised himself from the dead. However, like you said there are some scenarios wherein a beast might be raised from the dead by Lord Jesus. Rev. 20 does go down that rabbit hole but is an entirely different subject. One thing that I can not understand is how Francis comes to power. It appears that ten nations support some kind of economic confederation under which Francis arises to play a pivotal role. He uproots the governments of Great Britain, Russia, and Germany in the process and uses Russia's military to enforce his laws. This seems to be preceded by the sidelining of our country to our current political destruction that is right around the corner (IMO). Please consider the lion at Dan. 7:4.
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Post by boraddict on Mar 20, 2021 11:52:36 GMT -6
Returning to Dan. 7:4
1) Please consider that the 1st beast of the group of three beasts was like a lion, and one of the symbols of Great Britain is the lion.
2) This beast had eagle's wings. Eagles are birds of prey and they fly long distances and such was the case for Great Britain during Pax Britannica of the 1800's. Also, as I have mentioned before, the eagles in scripture primarily represent the followers of Christ and the government Great Britain has at it's head the leader of the Anglican Church; a Christen denomination.
3) Great Britain's world dominance came to an end in the early 1900's and this is what it means to have the wings plucked as stated in the verse.
4) Afterwards, Great Brittan became a little more congenial and this is what it means when the verse states that this 1st beast was lifted up from the earth and made to stand on it's feet like a man having a man's mind/heart given to it. That is, Great Britain became more understanding to it's subject's desire for self governance. For example: India's independence, Hong Kong back to China, and most importantly the homeland back to Israel.
IMO
The 2nd of the three beasts (Dan. 7:5) is Russia the bear (IMO)
1) And it was raised up to one side when it came against Europe and even before; Russia has always leaned toward it's west side and is often raised up on that side in warfare.
2) The verse states that it had three ribs in it's mouth and of course these are the three that are plucked out as stated in Dan. 7:8. These are representative of ribs of a group of ribs of a body and that body is the 10 horns of Dan. 7:8. They as a group have three of the ten removed and they are removed by Russia. That is, it's own government is destroyed and reborn as stated in Rev. 13:3 that it is the head that is wounded to death and yet lives to have the whole world wondering after this beast.
3) "And it was told" (by the little horn in Verse 7:8, arise and destroy much flesh; and Russia will be doing that.
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Post by Natalie on Mar 20, 2021 14:15:26 GMT -6
boraddict , there are four beasts; a leopard and a terrible beast come after the bear's emipire. So, you have England and then Russia with Russia being reborn to be the Anti-Christ kingdom. Am I understanding you correctly? How do you fit in the other two kingdoms?
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Post by boraddict on Mar 21, 2021 11:40:50 GMT -6
boraddict , there are four beasts; a leopard and a terrible beast come after the bear's emipire. So, you have England and then Russia with Russia being reborn to be the Anti-Christ kingdom. Am I understanding you correctly? How do you fit in the other two kingdoms? Okay, thank you Natalie . The 1st one at Dan. 7:4 is the lion that is Great Britain, the 2nd is Russia the bear at Dan. 7:5, and then the third is Germany the leopard at Dan. 7:6. The three verses as a chiasmus is as follows: Great Britain the lion Russia the bear and the center position and emphasis of the group
Germany the leopard By comparison please consider the chiasmus of these three in Rev. 13:3 as follows: Germany the leopard Russia the bear and the center position and emphasis of the group
Great Britain the lion In both places, Dan. and Rev., Russia the bear is the central subject of the verses (IMO) Also, please consider Dan. 7:6 as follows: "After this I looked, and behold, another, like a leopard, with four wings of a bird on its back" Please notice that this segment of the verse shows the number 4 that is so telling that this is from the Savior. That is, in scripture the number 4 is repeated throughout. It is my opinion that this has significance in showing a sign that the Savior is somehow involved in the verses at question and in most cases it seems that it simply states that it is real scripture. A couple of years ago I looked at the work of Denver Snuffer that is quite accomplished in his spin off of the LDS church and I read his material wherein he claimed to have received revelation and communication from God. However, while reading his very elegant and insightful claim, the language wherein he was quoting the Savior did not have the linguistic markers that testify to the validity of the claim. That is, the number 4 was missing throughout as were other markers. Next, please notice that the leopard has four wings upon his back and this has significance to his mobility. That is, while he can move around, he does not fly like an eagle but locally, like in Europe only. "And the beast had four heads, and dominion was given to it." So please consider that Germany has had 4 heads and again we have the number 4. The 4th head is of course the current Government of Germany and before that was the WWII government that was Hitler. Prior to that was the Weimar republic (1919 - 1933) and I am just going off memory, and the 1st head was Germany's origination in about the 1850's under Wilhelm. So there are the four heads of Germany , 1850-1919, 1919-1933, 1933-1945, 1945 to present. Oh, almost forgot, "What makes the Leopard still attractive over half a century after inception is its customization and upgradability. Thanks to its continuous upgrading and modernization process, the LEOPARD 1 remains a state-of-the-art design. Users of earlier versions have the choice of several retrofit kits to adapt the product configuration, putting corresponding emphasis on firepower, protection, mobility and logistics as needed.” nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/meet-leopard-i-german-tank-design-continues-excel-144247The 4th beast has an application similar to the 4th synoptic gospel. Please notice that the three synoptic gospels (Matt., Mark, and Luke) tell the same story whereas the gospel according to John is somewhat different. Likewise, the three beasts (lion, bear, and leopard) are similar in that they evolved as nation states and had their individual experiences with being destroyed. The fourth however comes from one of these three as referenced in Rev. 13:2-3 in that a former Government is revived. So, the government that can be revived from these three are the German government 1) under Wilhelm, no, 2) the Weimar Repunlic, no, 3) under Hitler, no, and the one under Russia that can be revived is Communist Russia, yes; and this is the 4th beast of Dan. 7:7. That is, the 4th beast is different from the other beasts because it was revived from the dead by the little horn (Dan. 7:8) that is the 2nd beast in Rev. 13 (Rev. 13:11-18) and this is Francis according to my 666-400=266 calculations. That is, Francis revives communist Russia. |
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Post by yardstick on Mar 21, 2021 12:57:55 GMT -6
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Post by Natalie on Mar 21, 2021 14:33:52 GMT -6
boraddict , I see you have put much thought in to who the beasts could be. My daughter and I are studying WWII and Germany right now, having also studied WWI. Very much a country wanting power and to devour its neighbor. I also read about Stalin with one of my sons. Not a nice guy. But here's something to consider. Daniel is given a timeline for Israel's history – 70 weeks of years. (Daniel 9:20-27) Daniel was under the Babylonian Empire. Then during the following empire of the Medes/Persians the countdown started with the declaration to rebuild Jerusalem (and the books of Ezra and Nehemiah). The Greek empire followed, and then the Roman empire, which was in place when Messiah arrived. Four beasts. When Messiah was killed, the weeks were paused. He was cut off after the 7 plus 62 weeks (Daniel 9:25-26 NKJV). So, Israel's history has one week (7 years) left. If we then look at the book of Revelation, John sees 7 kings – 5 have fallen, 1 is, and 1 is to come (Rev 17:10). The one that is would be Rome because they were still the empire controlling the land of Israel at the time John was writing. It doesn't list the 5 that have fallen, but we can assume they were all 5 empires before Rome that also had control of Israel. Greece, Media/Persia, Babylon (when Daniel lived), Assyria, and Egypt. John is also writing about the events of that last week of Israel's history revealed to Daniel. There is a giant pause between the 69th week and the 70th. That's when England, Russia, the Ottomans, Mongols, Napolean's attempt at an empire, etc, all take place. They are during what we call the Church Age, and so are left out of the prophetic sequence of the book of Daniel. It's like a giant side story in a book before you return to pick up with the main characters.  They may all be likened to various beasts, I just don't think they are described by the Bible. So, focusing on Israel's history, I believe the beasts must be Babylon, Media/Persia, Greece, and Rome. Then there is a long pause and one of these or Assyria or Egypt is resurrected. Also consider that Nebuchadnezzar's dream of the gold headed statue also point to these four empires starting with Babylon and Nebuchadnezzar. (Daniel 2:31-45) That dream also seems to imply that God will establish His kingdom during the last empire (Rome). Daniel also has the vision of the ram and the goat (chapter 8), and Gabriel tells him that it is Media/Persia versus Greece. He also tells Daniel that after Greece will come a final kingdom that will be destroyed by God – again suggesting that Rome is the final kingdom. So, that is why people see a revived Roman empire.
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Mar 21, 2021 16:21:19 GMT -6
lionofgod , boraddict , rondonmonson , mike , benel , the silliness that I was referring to was the doctrine that an anti-Christ beast could arise from the dead under his own power. That doctrine implies that he, the anti-Christ beast, has power like Jesus whom raised himself from the dead. However, like you said there are some scenarios wherein a beast might be raised from the dead by Lord Jesus. Rev. 20 does go down that rabbit hole but is an entirely different subject. One thing that I can not understand is how Francis comes to power. It appears that ten nations support some kind of economic confederation under which Francis arises to play a pivotal role. He uproots the governments of Great Britain, Russia, and Germany in the process and uses Russia's military to enforce his laws. This seems to be preceded by the sidelining of our country to our current political destruction that is right around the corner (IMO). Please consider the lion at Dan. 7:4. Hello sister, all of this Great Briton, Russia the USA stuff came from a guy named Armstrong, his premise was that these were the "Lost Tribes of Israel". The only problem is there were never any lost tribes of Israel, God saved a Remnant from each tribe. The 10 Northern Kingdoms were wicked, so God allowed Assyria to tote them off, but there were some people that loved this wickedness so much they moved to the Northern Kingdoms so they were toted off also. Likewise many of the people who lived in the Northern Kingdoms despised their wickedness and moved to Judah or Jerusalem, so when these 10 Kingdoms were toted off, many people from the 10 tribes still lived in Jerusalem, thus their SEED was never lost sister, this is coming from people like Armstrong who Satan confuses, then his followers confuse other people etc. Ezekiel 37 tells about the Valley of Dry Bones Prophecy, but there is another prophecy at the end of the chapter about the TWO STICKS becoming ONE STICK. What it is basically saying is God is going to take the Northern Kingdom and Judah and make them ONE NATION, as He intended all the time. Thus when these wicked men were toted off, the vast majority of the kingdom, those who hated wickedness and lived in Jerusalem, became one with Judah's culture and eventually got lost in the shuffle, especially after 2000 years of the Diaspora, when the "Jews" returned to Israel, it wasn't just Jews, it was people from all 12 tribes now known as Jews !! There are no lost tribes sister. And Great Briton, Russia and the USA and even Germany have nothing to do with the end time Beast per se, at least not in the way Armstrong described it. Its pretty basic stuff. Babylon was the Lion, Persia was the Bear, he was lifted up on one side because it was two kingdoms, the Medes and the Persians, he had three ribs in his mouth because they conquered three kingdoms/groups in league with each other, this is a known fact, Babylon, Lydia and Egypt had formed a pact with each other against Persia. The Leopard was Alexander the Great and Greece, they conquered at a speed so fast the feet of the Leopard never touched the ground. Lastly the fierce beast was Rome, the deadly wound of Revelation 13 is to the FIGURATIVE BEAST in general, I think we agree there. Th Anti-Christ reawakens this beast by conquering Israel and the MANY NATIONS in the whole region. You can travel down that road sister, but its an error by a teacher I discounted 30 years ago. God Bless. |
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Post by boraddict on Mar 22, 2021 0:03:51 GMT -6
lionofgod , boraddict , rondonmonson , mike , benel , the silliness that I was referring to was the doctrine that an anti-Christ beast could arise from the dead under his own power. That doctrine implies that he, the anti-Christ beast, has power like Jesus whom raised himself from the dead. However, like you said there are some scenarios wherein a beast might be raised from the dead by Lord Jesus. Rev. 20 does go down that rabbit hole but is an entirely different subject. One thing that I can not understand is how Francis comes to power. It appears that ten nations support some kind of economic confederation under which Francis arises to play a pivotal role. He uproots the governments of Great Britain, Russia, and Germany in the process and uses Russia's military to enforce his laws. This seems to be preceded by the sidelining of our country to our current political destruction that is right around the corner (IMO). Please consider the lion at Dan. 7:4. Hello sister, all of this Great Briton, Russia the USA stuff came from a guy named Armstrong, his premise was that these were the "Lost Tribes of Israel". The only problem is there were never any lost tribes of Israel, God saved a Remnant from each tribe. The 10 Northern Kingdoms were wicked, so God allowed Assyria to tote them off, but there were some people that loved this wickedness so much they moved to the Northern Kingdoms so they were toted off also. Likewise many of the people who lived in the Northern Kingdoms despised their wickedness and moved to Judah or Jerusalem, so when these 10 Kingdoms were toted off, many people from the 10 tribes still lived in Jerusalem, thus their SEED was never lost sister, this is coming from people like Armstrong who Satan confuses, then his followers confuse other people etc. Ezekiel 37 tells about the Valley of Dry Bones Prophecy, but there is another prophecy at the end of the chapter about the TWO STICKS becoming ONE STICK. What it is basically saying is God is going to take the Northern Kingdom and Judah and make them ONE NATION, as He intended all the time. Thus when these wicked men were toted off, the vast majority of the kingdom, those who hated wickedness and lived in Jerusalem, became one with Judah's culture and eventually got lost in the shuffle, especially after 2000 years of the Diaspora, when the "Jews" returned to Israel, it wasn't just Jews, it was people from all 12 tribes now known as Jews !! There are no lost tribes sister. And Great Briton, Russia and the USA and even Germany have nothing to do with the end time Beast per se, at least not in the way Armstrong described it. Its pretty basic stuff. Babylon was the Lion, Persia was the Bear, he was lifted up on one side because it was two kingdoms, the Medes and the Persians, he had three ribs in his mouth because they conquered three kingdoms/groups in league with each other, this is a known fact, Babylon, Lydia and Egypt had formed a pact with each other against Persia. The Leopard was Alexander the Great and Greece, they conquered at a speed so fast the feet of the Leopard never touched the ground. Lastly the fierce beast was Rome, the deadly wound of Revelation 13 is to the FIGURATIVE BEAST in general, I think we agree there. Th Anti-Christ reawakens this beast by conquering Israel and the MANY NATIONS in the whole region. You can travel down that road sister, but its an error by a teacher I discounted 30 years ago. God Bless. , no only do I not know of Armstrong but I have never read any of his work. I never read anyone's work!  Although I have mentioned that I plan to read several things and one of those things is something that Natalie, recommended sometime back. So, sorry, don't know Armstrong. And while it is reasonable that the 12 tribes interbred, they did however retain their individual tribal affiliations. The ten northern tribes split off after King Solomon died and remained under the leadership of Ephraim. Thus there was the northern kingdom of Ephraim and the southern kingdom of Judah. As time went along the Assyrians started chipping away at the northern tribes taking one or two but not all ten at once. That is, while they collectively were ten tribes they considered themselves a confederacy of some type and and not collectively responsible to defend each other. You know, like when they came for one then the others did not engage for fear of loosing; something like that. Then at some point when Syria and Ephraim tried to force Judah into helping fight the Assyrians then the northern tribes finely succumb to the onslaught. However, at that time I do not know how many tribes were actually left. So your point that all 12 tribes is represented in Judah that is not entirely correct; because, while the blood line is Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the 12 tribes have their own covenantal promises from God. Not under Judah mind you, but in their own right. So while Judah had the promise of kingship, it does not have the promise of priesthood authority; Ephraim does and that was the justification for it's presiding authority in the north. So while it is easy to see why someone marrying into Judah would claim that birthright and that tribe would grow larger as a result, the same is true of Ephraim. IMO, these two tribes are at enmity with one another and would never blend. That is why the kingdom split. Ephraim is equal to Judah in stature because if it's calling to represent the Savior. In the end Ephraim rejected the Savior and was scattered first, and then Judah rejected the Savior and was scattered second. Likewise, Ephraim was gathered first and Judah was gathered second. That is, all Christians are in the tribe of Ephraim even those in Judah. Does Armstrong write about that? Also, in the OT when speaking of Israel after the split then the word refers to Ephraim; not Judah. That is, Israel is Ephraim and visa versa. Judah is Judah and only Israel on the world stage today. IMO, not Armstrong's. So while you may be correct about who the lion, bear, and leopard are, you are quite wrong with how I derive my conclusions about scripture. Did Armstrong also solve the Rev. 13:18 riddle? I doubt it. Sorry rondonmonson, you are way off on this one. |
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Post by boraddict on Mar 22, 2021 0:18:51 GMT -6
boraddict , I see you have put much thought in to who the beasts could be. My daughter and I are studying WWII and Germany right now, having also studied WWI. Very much a country wanting power and to devour its neighbor. I also read about Stalin with one of my sons. Not a nice guy. But here's something to consider. Daniel is given a timeline for Israel's history – 70 weeks of years. (Daniel 9:20-27) Daniel was under the Babylonian Empire. Then during the following empire of the Medes/Persians the countdown started with the declaration to rebuild Jerusalem (and the books of Ezra and Nehemiah). The Greek empire followed, and then the Roman empire, which was in place when Messiah arrived. Four beasts. When Messiah was killed, the weeks were paused. He was cut off after the 7 plus 62 weeks (Daniel 9:25-26 NKJV). So, Israel's history has one week (7 years) left. If we then look at the book of Revelation, John sees 7 kings – 5 have fallen, 1 is, and 1 is to come (Rev 17:10). The one that is would be Rome because they were still the empire controlling the land of Israel at the time John was writing. It doesn't list the 5 that have fallen, but we can assume they were all 5 empires before Rome that also had control of Israel. Greece, Media/Persia, Babylon (when Daniel lived), Assyria, and Egypt. John is also writing about the events of that last week of Israel's history revealed to Daniel. There is a giant pause between the 69th week and the 70th. That's when England, Russia, the Ottomans, Mongols, Napolean's attempt at an empire, etc, all take place. They are during what we call the Church Age, and so are left out of the prophetic sequence of the book of Daniel. It's like a giant side story in a book before you return to pick up with the main characters. They may all be likened to various beasts, I just don't think they are described by the Bible. So, focusing on Israel's history, I believe the beasts must be Babylon, Media/Persia, Greece, and Rome. Then there is a long pause and one of these or Assyria or Egypt is resurrected. Also consider that Nebuchadnezzar's dream of the gold headed statue also point to these four empires starting with Babylon and Nebuchadnezzar. (Daniel 2:31-45) That dream also seems to imply that God will establish His kingdom during the last empire (Rome). Daniel also has the vision of the ram and the goat (chapter 8), and Gabriel tells him that it is Media/Persia versus Greece. He also tells Daniel that after Greece will come a final kingdom that will be destroyed by God – again suggesting that Rome is the final kingdom. So, that is why people see a revived Roman empire. It may be the case that the 7 in Rev. 17:10 do not include the 3 from Rev. 13:2. |
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Mar 22, 2021 6:23:00 GMT -6
Hello sister, all of this Great Briton, Russia the USA stuff came from a guy named Armstrong, his premise was that these were the "Lost Tribes of Israel". The only problem is there were never any lost tribes of Israel, God saved a Remnant from each tribe. The 10 Northern Kingdoms were wicked, so God allowed Assyria to tote them off, but there were some people that loved this wickedness so much they moved to the Northern Kingdoms so they were toted off also. Likewise many of the people who lived in the Northern Kingdoms despised their wickedness and moved to Judah or Jerusalem, so when these 10 Kingdoms were toted off, many people from the 10 tribes still lived in Jerusalem, thus their SEED was never lost sister, this is coming from people like Armstrong who Satan confuses, then his followers confuse other people etc. Ezekiel 37 tells about the Valley of Dry Bones Prophecy, but there is another prophecy at the end of the chapter about the TWO STICKS becoming ONE STICK. What it is basically saying is God is going to take the Northern Kingdom and Judah and make them ONE NATION, as He intended all the time. Thus when these wicked men were toted off, the vast majority of the kingdom, those who hated wickedness and lived in Jerusalem, became one with Judah's culture and eventually got lost in the shuffle, especially after 2000 years of the Diaspora, when the "Jews" returned to Israel, it wasn't just Jews, it was people from all 12 tribes now known as Jews !! There are no lost tribes sister. And Great Briton, Russia and the USA and even Germany have nothing to do with the end time Beast per se, at least not in the way Armstrong described it. Its pretty basic stuff. Babylon was the Lion, Persia was the Bear, he was lifted up on one side because it was two kingdoms, the Medes and the Persians, he had three ribs in his mouth because they conquered three kingdoms/groups in league with each other, this is a known fact, Babylon, Lydia and Egypt had formed a pact with each other against Persia. The Leopard was Alexander the Great and Greece, they conquered at a speed so fast the feet of the Leopard never touched the ground. Lastly the fierce beast was Rome, the deadly wound of Revelation 13 is to the FIGURATIVE BEAST in general, I think we agree there. Th Anti-Christ reawakens this beast by conquering Israel and the MANY NATIONS in the whole region. You can travel down that road sister, but its an error by a teacher I discounted 30 years ago. God Bless. , no only do I not know of Armstrong but I have never read any of his work. I never read anyone's work! Although I have mentioned that I plan to read several things and one of those things is something that Natalie , recommended sometime back. So, sorry, don't know Armstrong. And while it is reasonable that the 12 tribes interbred, they did however retain their individual tribal affiliations. The ten northern tribes split off after King Solomon died and remained under the leadership of Ephraim. Thus there was the northern kingdom of Ephraim and the southern kingdom of Judah. As time went along the Assyrians started chipping away at the northern tribes taking one or two but not all ten at once. That is, while they collectively were ten tribes they considered themselves a confederacy of some type and and not collectively responsible to defend each other. You know, like when they came for one then the others did not engage for fear of loosing; something like that. Then at some point when Syria and Ephraim tried to force Judah into helping fight the Assyrians then the northern tribes finely succumb to the onslaught. However, at that time I do not know how many tribes were actually left. So your point that all 12 tribes is represented in Judah that is not entirely correct; because, while the blood line is Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the 12 tribes have their own covenantal promises from God. Not under Judah mind you, but in their own right. So while Judah had the promise of kingship, it does not have the promise of priesthood authority; Ephraim does and that was the justification for it's presiding authority in the north. So while it is easy to see why someone marrying into Judah would claim that birthright and that tribe would grow larger as a result, the same is true of Ephraim. IMO, these two tribes are at enmity with one another and would never blend. That is why the kingdom split. Ephraim is equal to Judah in stature because if it's calling to represent the Savior. In the end Ephraim rejected the Savior and was scattered first, and then Judah rejected the Savior and was scattered second. Likewise, Ephraim was gathered first and Judah was gathered second. That is, all Christians are in the tribe of Ephraim even those in Judah. Does Armstrong write about that? Also, in the OT when speaking of Israel after the split then the word refers to Ephraim; not Judah. That is, Israel is Ephraim and visa versa. Judah is Judah and only Israel on the world stage today. IMO, not Armstrong's. So while you may be correct about who the lion, bear, and leopard are, you are quite wrong with how I derive my conclusions about scripture. Did Armstrong also solve the Rev. 13:18 riddle? I doubt it. Sorry rondonmonson , you are way off on this one. It doesn't matter if you know him or not if you have learned what he taught then its the same info coming from a false teacher. Ellen G. White was likewise a false teacher, and a lot of people teach her works and never know they are teaching it, but its not really relevant, because all false teachings actually come forth from Satan and his demon liars whose job it is to try and confuses the masses. Its not called interbreeding because different tribes were allowed to intermarry each other, if a woman of one tribe married a man from another tribe his seed was all that mattered, the family was put forth as being from his tribe. All that mattered was are there men from all 12 tribes with actual SEED (Generational families) in Israel today, and the answer to that is, by God's own Holy Word is yes, the 7000 that he has set aside, again represents ALL Israel in that 7 and 10 = COMPLETENESS. In Revelation we are told that God has 7 eyes and 7 spirits, meaning God sees all and is everywhere, here 7000 represents all the Remnant of every tribe, not just Judah. The Gentiles Church doesn't become the 144,000 by accident. The 12 lost tribes didn't migrate and become Great Briton and the USA etc. In the end what the Assyrians did or didn't do doesn't really matter, the 12 tribes all had SEED left intact in Israel. There are no lost tribes, and NEVER WERE. God told us what he was goin to do, all we have to do is read the prophecy of TWO STICKS become ONE STICK. Ezekiel 37:15 The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying, 16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions: 17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these? 19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. The 10 Tribes that were toted off allowed the SEED left from the other 10 tribes to JOIN with Juda and become ONE STICK. We can call them whatsoever name we choose to, they are ALL Israel according to God, living in Judah. No one can win this debate because it came straight from God's Prophet Ezekiel. The PROMISED SEED was te Original Covenant, not the Law of Moses which was added 430 years later. (See Galatians chapter 3) There is no Marrying into Judah, the SEED'S LINE always stays with the male, it never crosses over to the female. God is God, He does it as He so pleases. He has His own reasoning. No man thus can marry into Judah, he retains his heritage via the fathers for every generation. The point was not that they BECOME Judeans in SEED, the point was they become unwittingly Jews in the CULTURE, they do not know what tribe they were from, BUT, God does, and that is all that matters. God doesn't need us or them to know in order to know Himself, of course we know this down deep because He knows how many hairs are on our head and when every sparrow takes flight. All 12 tribes now live in Israel sister. P.S. I never said how you derived you conclusions, I only stated it was FROM Armstrong. Believe me I know false teaching travel well beyond their birth place and even change over time. But I know where that all came from because I read it 30 plus year ago. No man brings in these untruths, in reality, a demonic spirit brings it forth, just like the Holy Spirit brings forth the truth sister. I don't think Armstrong ever solved anything because he was misled by Demon spirits, just as Ellen G. White was, and Joseph Smith via the Mormons. LETS SEE: Rev. 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. What's the riddle? I mean, its obviously prose. These people do not sit around worshiping Satan and the Anti-Christ, what it means is those who refuse to serve God worship Satan an his minions because they LOVE EVIL, more than they love God, half will not even believe in a God, they will all be deceived Atheists. Satan has them right where he wants them, he's not going to reveal there is an actual Devil and God, some may panic and start serving God. Right now, we see people in Washington DC, in Hollywood, on the News Networks via the Media whom I could say the exact same thing about as Rev. 13:8 in so many words, they WORSHIP Satan and don't even realize what they are doing !! They are kneeling to the god of Baal and Sacrifice via their abortion stances, they are worshiping perversions via their homosexual marriage stances, etc. etc. I don't think these people actually believe in God, Satan has them hoodwinked, now they will worship this Anti-Christ in a way, because they worship MANKIND, they think the "INTELLECTUAL FEW" (LOL) whom they see themselves as, are all there is, and they think in their own minds they are in a rush to solve Human evolvement that will allow them to be eternal beings, they actually think this way. That is why AI is so dangerous, they think they are on the cusp of some marvelous discovery that will allow them to live forever. That may not have been your point on Rev. 13:8, I was just guessing at what you meant tbh. God Bless. More Work today, the REAL BEAST has the whip out. Naa, we have a garden and we are prepping. |
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Post by lionofgod on Mar 22, 2021 7:41:07 GMT -6
rondonmonson, There is truth here brother. i'm curious about this though. "All 12 tribes now live in Israel sister." You mean this in a geographic sense or in a broader sense?
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Post by mike on Mar 22, 2021 8:32:53 GMT -6
Love the post Ron and have just come to (somewhat) understand the tribes issue recently myself...This is the part you wrote that glares so bright with me rondonmonson said: Prov 12:15, Prov 16:25, Prov 30:12, Psa 62:4 And what does this all lead to brother? (rhetorical-however I do want to hear your view or addition...) It leads to Romans 1! How I sum up this chapter to people who do not understand the Word or better do not read it you want it this way (homosexuality, abortion, coveting lies abhorring truth...) God allows it and promotes it for you. Here you go, I (God) give you over to your carnal, ungodly hearts/desires. The trials of the Israelites is littered with this (2Chron 18:22 / 1Kings 22:23). They go after false gods, often trying to mingle the false religion with truth, trusting in those things which are abominable! (Isa 46), which does not mix (Dan 2) EDIT - the Romans 1 mindset applies not only to those who are given over but to the harlot church! Itching ears |
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Post by boraddict on Mar 22, 2021 9:55:17 GMT -6
rondonmonson , you are beautiful but I won the debate on the grounds that the verses you quoted (Ezek. 37:15-28) are yet future. You defend the premise that the 12 tribes are accounted for in Judah and I defend the premise that 2 tribes (Judah and Benjamin) are accounted for in Judah and the reaming 10 tribes are accounted for in Ephraim (the Christians). Of our two positions, only mine shows the two sticks as being independently available for the prophecy from Ezek. (above) to yet be fulfilled. So if the prophecy has been fulfilled then the odds are in your favor, and if the prophecy is yet future then the odds are in my favor. The prophecy is yet future. Let's take a look at it. 15 The word of the Lord came to me: 16 “Son of man, take a stick and write on it, ‘For Judah, and the people of Israel associated with him’; then take another stick and write on it, ‘For Joseph (the stick of Ephraim) and all the house of Israel associated with him.’ 17 And join them one to another into one stick, that they may become one in your hand. Please notice that the writings (stick) for Judah is the OT and the writings (stick) for Ephraim is the NT. The two sticks together is the bible that is one in the hand.
18 And when your people say to you, 'Will you not tell us what you mean by these?’ 19 say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I am about to take the stick of Joseph (that is in the hand of Ephraim) and the tribes of Israel associated with him. And I will join with it the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, that they may be one in my hand. Please notice that Judah is joined to Ephraim (the Christians) and not the other way around. That is, if an individual accepts both sticks, the Bible, then they are Christian.20 When the sticks on which you write are in your hand before their eyes, Again, these two sticks are OT and NT. This shows that the gathering together of Ephraim and Judah can not take place until after the NT is written.21 then say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I will take the people of Israel from the nations among which they have gone, and will gather them from all around, and bring them to their own land. 22 And I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. And one king shall be king over them all, and they shall be no longer two nations, and no longer divided into two kingdoms. This gathering of Ephraim and Judah is yet future because the two tribes have not been gathered as one under Ephraim (Christians). The king over them is the Savior who returns; yet future. So the joining of the OT and NT is symbolic in a type and shadow relationship to the joining of Judah to Ephraim (the Christians). That is, Judah will eventually accept Lord Jesus and become Christian.23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols and their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions. But I will save them from all the backslidings in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them; and they shall be my people, and I will be their God. 24 “My servant David shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall walk in my rules and be careful to obey my statutes. 25 They shall dwell in the land that I gave to my servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children’s children shall dwell there forever, and David my servant shall be their prince forever. This is so funny to me because Denver Snuffer claims that he is this David. However, the reference to David seems to be two fold in that the office of leadership follows the old Davidic Covenant that requires the leaders to be accountable for the people. Secondly, the kingship of David being claimed by the Savior as the prince over them forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them. It shall be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will set them in their land and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in their midst forevermore. 27 My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.” The above prophecy is yet future.
Side note: the LDS claim that the two sticks are the Bible and the Book of Mormon. No, I don't think so.
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Post by Natalie on Mar 22, 2021 11:20:35 GMT -6
from GotQuestions:
(Emphasis added.)
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Post by firefrorefiddle on Mar 22, 2021 16:03:29 GMT -6
boraddict, not that I want to be rude and mix in with your beautiful discussion, as I am a mostly quiet member here, but... practically your entire argument is based on the conjecture that the two sticks are representative for the OT and NT. Problem is, there is no biblical basis for this, it's just an idea. Nowhere near enough to base a solid teaching on.
Also, if all the nation are Ephraim, the whole narrative just doesn't work. The prophet's story, God's story is that of a divided people driven away from their land (in separate events) and returning as one.
Christians are neither driven away from the mountains of Israel, nor returning there. It was always "Judah, Israel and the Nations". Christians are from the Nations (except for those who are from the Jews), not from Israel. The Christians' story an entirely different story then the Israelites'.
The Israelites' story is about God's punished and scattered people being gathered home, now without Idolatry.
The Christians' story, is about humans among all peoples who never had any promise from God in the first place, suddenly given a place in Him, and in His people.
We cannot mix these stories up.
In fact, rondonmonson's argument is very strong: There is evidence that every tribe is now represented in Israel. One may argue that the prophecy is partly fulfilled by now.
They are back. They are one people - the stick is joined. They are no longer Judah and Ephraim, but a united Israel, occupying territory of both tribes. One person rules over all of them, Benjamin Netanyahu. When the prophecy will be entirely fulfilled, then instead of him the Son of David, our Lord Jesus, will rule.
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They may all be likened to various beasts, I just don't think they are described by the Bible. So, focusing on Israel's history, I believe the beasts must be Babylon, Media/Persia, Greece, and Rome. Then there is a long pause and one of these or Assyria or Egypt is resurrected. 
Although I have mentioned that I plan to read several things and one of those things is something that 
