Revelation 12 from the Trump perspective

boraddict , where in Scripture do you see that Christians become one of the twelve tribes? (Scripture only, not an assumption based on an interpretation)

If true, how does a Christian know what tribe they are of?

My thought is that a Christian only becomes part of one of the tribes if they renounce Christ and embrace Judaism.  (Similar issues are addressed in the book of Hebrews)  Or they are genetically a descendent of Jacob and have become a Christian (Messianic Jew). 

I think where we have a disconnect is that you consider Jews only of Judah where many people (and churches) consider all descendants of Jacob to be Jews. They could also called Hebrews or Israelites or children of Jacob or physical descendants of Abraham.  

Christians are descendants of Abraham by faith - Jews are descendants by blood. To be in the twelve tribes a person would have to be a blood descendent (or a convert to Judaism). 

Thank you Natalie , and you are at the very heart of the issue.

So let's say that God in the beginning gave the law and this law included that Jesus is the Christ. Because, God knew that man could not live the law and needed a Savior. Thus, Jesus was with God from the very beginning. Additionally, those who followed Lord Jesus were written in the book of life. That is, since God sees everything, past, present, and future, then he knows everyone that has salvation and are written in the book of life. That is, all who follow Jesus have salvation from the law of God. Which by the way is perfection because God is perfect and all that comes from him is perfect and such is the requirement for the imperfect people to have salvation from God's law. Because, they can not live the law; because they are not perfect. That is, because of the perfect law then man will sin and needs a Savior from the violations of the law.

Because of the critical nature of the need for a Savior then the line of birthright to the culmination of the death of the Savior was shared with man. Thus, Jesus would be born through a line of great patriarchs beginning with Adam and down through Noah to Abraham, then to Isaac, and Jacob, and through Judah. This birthright line was however not dependent upon an earthly father but an earthly mother and we all know this. In other words, the Savior's mother would create him here upon the earth as all children are created. So, the line of birth from father to son ends at Jesus' mother's father because she is a woman. In other words, it was not the men that played the critical role in the Savior's creation here upon the earth but they pointed to his creation via a line of patriarchs the last of which was Jacob and then through the line of Judah.

That is, the line from Adam to the Savior goes through Judah and his children; and two examples of this is given in the NT. And, something that should be already understood and I will go ahead and say is that Jesus' Father is God. That is, the father to son down line ends at Mary's (Jesus' mother) father who was of the line of Judah. This does not include all of the 12 tribes of Israel but Judah only. So, Judah is the birthright line of the King of the earth. Not any of the other tribes, but Judah only.

Along with the birthright line to the Savior that is Judah are the other tribes born to Israel (Jacob). These would participate in claiming to the world that Jesus is the Christ. The manner in which they play this part is through Ephraim that all who are born into the house of Israel are in Ephraim. Because, they profess the Savior that is Lord Jesus to the world; they are the Christians. That is, all Christians are in the house of Israel via Ephraim; not Judah. In other words, the 12 tribes of Israel are constituted within the Christian movement. And, even if there is no actual blood of Jacob running through the veins of a person; if said person accepts Christ then they are in Israel via Ephraim; not Judah. That is, the birthright tribe (Judah) has a special place and some day they will accept the Savior. But until that time then they stand alone as the chosen people whom are of the birthright tribe. When they convert then they no longer are designated as Jews but Christians. And, although they are of the birthright tribe they are also of Ephraim that testifies to the world of Christ. In other words, Ephraim is Christian and visa versa. Secondly, Ephraim includes all twelve tribes of Israel that testify of Christ. That is, Israel that is Ephraim are the Christians; and Judah that are the Jews are the birthright tribe. Today the Christians (Ephraim) will not convert to Judaism and the Jews reject Christ.

I hope that I have not included any contradictions in the above wording and may need to do another edit.

The blessing from Jacob to Ephraim, his son via adoption from Joseph (Gen 48:5-6), was that he (Ephraim) would be a multitude of nations (Gen. 48:19) and that Israel's name is upon him and his brother (Gen. 48:16).

Then Jacob blessed his sons to tell them what would befall them in the last days (Gen. 49:1). And here is the blessing upon Joseph (Gen. 49:22-26). Please notice that Joseph has the blessing of procreation unto the everlasting hills. And this is here in the last days. The everlasting hills are the everlasting nations of Ephraim, the birthright son of Joseph.

Post Script: Please consider the 12 tribes of Israel as stated in Rev. 7:5-8. Both Manasseh and Joseph are listed in the group of 12 meaning that Joseph is being used to represent Ephraim in the list. Right, Manasseh and Joseph are Manasseh and Ephraim; the two sons of Joseph that were adopted into the house of Israel. They both are the tribes of adoption but Ephraim has that birthright blessing. So not only was Ephraim adopted but he also adopts all other tribes into his family. Such is the case for the Christians; they are brought into the family of Israel via Ephraim under the law of adoption.  

Joseph has greater blessing than all the other tribes (Gen. 49:26). Jacob is saying that his (Jacob's) blessings were greater than his father's and now his (Jacob') blessings go to Joseph. In other words, Jacob has transferred his blessing to Joseph. As a result, Ephraim having the birthright blessing from Jacob now has the position as the head of the family and the tribes of Israel are the tribes of Ephraim.

O personally see the Harlot as ALL FALSE RELIGION of All Time. In other words Islam today is the largest part of the Harlot, Buddhism, Hinduism and even the Mormons (cough, cough), but it goes back much further, of course, the Egyptians, Babylonian, Romans, Greeks all served False gods, those inhabitants of Cannan served Baal, which became Bel then Belios then Zeus then Jupiter. Its all the same false god, Satan. 

Nowadays Satan is attacking in a different way, he is getting people to believe there is NOTHING BUT MANKIND, thus the last false god will be a man !! He is angling them towards worshiping a great man as god, whereas before it was always a false god built of wood, rock, gold, silver etc. You see brother, they have to accept their sins as Romans 1 says as being NO SINS else they need to repent and are thus in need of cleansing, thus they need to accept all manner of evil as natural lifestyles. The only pervert people in their minds are those that refuse to accept these perversions as pur and legitimate lifestyles, else they need to be CLEANSED, and they do not admit to being sinners, they are PURE and RIGHTEOUS people, thus if they have to lie to win an election, so be it, if they have to cheat to win polls and thus indoctrinate people, so be it. 

They see evil as all those who refuse to accept perverted lifestyles as normal. They do not understand that NO ORDER leads to CHAOS. 

A plain reading of Revelation chapter 7 shows believers in Messiah from each of the tribes of national Israel. Yes, that would make them Christians. But they are of the blood lines of Rueben, Gad, Naphtali, etc. God knows who belongs to each tribe.

A couple of days ago there was an article posted in the shoutbox and part of it talked about the preparation of the Levite priests going on in Israel. They have found that those who descended from Levi have a specific genetic marker that no one else has. So, the tribe of Levi is not lost.

Gentiles do not become part of national (physical) Israel. If you want to call them spiritual Israel, I think one can make a case for that. But spiritual Israel is not divided up into tribes. They are one in Christ. There is a distinction between physical Israel (the 12 tribes) and a spiritual Israel.  

I still know of no Scripture that says the church becomes Israel or Ephraim. 

It is true all of us who TAKE ON Christ are called Christians which means Christ like, which really means our goal is via the mercy of God to be Christ-Like. But in truth its really the PROMISE (as you well know) that redeems us to God, the Promise of a coming redeemer to Abraham became fact when Jesus died for our sins. The Law was added 430 years later (after the promise). So ALL those that BELIVE on God become righteous by Faith in the coming Redeemer as in Abraham, Daniel and Ezekiel's cases or like in our cases by believing in the Promised one who came. Either way, it is FAITH in that Redeemer that saves us from our sins. Amen. 

I only point that out, to point out many peoples fallacy in their understanding Galatians chapter 3, Paul never told anyone that Jews and Gentiles were one and the same, this is a clever wordsmith trick by Satan. His words were pointing out just the opposite point unto the Gentiles, he was saying "Hey, you don't have to be Jews to be of God" that is what he was really saying in Galatians chapter 3, but Satan has a way of twisting things over time to mean something else, if we let him. I will teach it below, it seems you already know this, but a lot of people really think the Church has taken over the mantle of Israel. I don't usually like posting a lot of scriptures, but this is important. This whole teaching goes back to what I was speaking about, FAITH vs THE LAW and the works thereof. It was never about the Gentiles and Jews becoming ONE, it was about the Gentiles understanding they didn't have to be like the Jews to be of God, someone was teaching the Gentiles they had to practice as the Jews did to be of God, Paul says WHO HAS BEWITCHED YOU? 


Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.


{{{ The Galatians has started keeping the Sabbath, keeping the Jewish Laws etc. maybe even sacrificing, and Paul scolds them, WHO HAS BEWITCHED YOU, that starting out via Faith in Christ Jesus you have now moved to WORKS under the Law, so some Jewish Leaders no doubt, who were also "Christian" told them, you can be of God, but you have to keep the Sabbath, and do these Laws, etc. etc. and Paul thus says HOLD UP, what's going on here, who has told you this? Its NONSENSE !! We live by FAITH }}}

12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.


{{{ Paul then explains unto the Galatians how the Law is not of THE FAITH, in order to be justified of the law you have to keep every bit of the law at all times, the law condemns, but never justifies, only FAITH can justify, Faith in the promised Redeemer Jesus Christ. }}}


16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.



19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


{{{ Paul explains how even Abraham BELIVED God to be justified, and that this LAW they were trusting in was only added 430 years AFTER the Promise was made, thus the original covenant was never THE LAW it was always THE PRIOMISE of the coming seed Jesus Christ. He does tell them the Law is not against the promises of God but that the law only condemns, it can't justify you, only FAITH can justify you. Faith in Jesus Christ the Redeemer. }}}


28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


{{ There is neither Jew NOR Greek/Gentile is being used by Paul here as an axiom to make a point, he of course is not saying there are no Jews nor Gentiles, just like he is not saying there are no MALES nor FEMALES........Its funny no one ever says males and females have meshed as one because of this scripture, BUT they say there are no longer Jews nor Gentiles and we have all become ONE VIA Faith, that is not what Paul was saying at all, just like he wasn't implying there are no males or females, Paul was making a POINT to the Galatians, telling them, "HEY, you don't have to become Jews to be of God" because in God's eyes ONLY FAITH matters !! Be ye Greeks, Jews, Chinese, Hondurans, Ethiopians etc. etc. etc. But that doesn't mean the Jews and Gentiles have become ONE anymore than it mean Males and Females had become ONE. }}


Israel has to repent during the 70th week. After the Rapture of the Church. God treats everyone the same, the proof of this is, there will be Jews AND Gentiles in the Rapture who lived in Christ during the Church Age. There will be Gentile Martyrs who come unto Christ after the Rapture AND the 1/3 of the Jews who come to Jesus also after the Rapture during the 70th week, God will protect them to fulfill His promise to Abraham to have a continual seed on this earth forever. So, all those who come unto God must come by FAITH ALONE, be it before the Rapture or after the Rapture.