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Post by boraddict on Nov 21, 2020 3:30:55 GMT -6
So I have been considering the events of the past few weeks and wondering how D. Trump might fit into Rev. 12. Of course the man child at Rev. 12:5 is the Savior in the context of 2,000 years ago; however, for today there might be a shadow based upon that type. So, please consider the verses of the chapter as follows:
Rev. 12:1, the great sign of Sept. 23 2017
Rev. 12:2, the woman that is the church is travailing to be enraptured and she has the man child that is Trump as president with her
Rev. 12:3, China represented in this verse causes covid 19
Rev. 12:4, the false government that is Biden draws 1/3rd of the population with him. China that supports Biden stands before the church that is now to be delivered and as soon as the man child that is Trump is delivered; as in constitutionally recognized as president for a second term, he is born to his calling.
Rev. 12:5, It is then that he is called up to God as the tribulation begins
Rev. 12:6, after which the saints are called out for 3.5 years
Rev. 12:7-11, and the followers of the dragon that is China is destroyed. Not China, but the followers that are against the saints.
Rev. 12:12, this is the mid point and one of the woes is noted here. I think this is the 1st woe of Chapter 9.
Rev. 12:13, China invades most likely via invitation
Rev. 12:14, the church is once again sequestered for the second 3.5 years
Rev. 12:15-17, during this 3.5 years the dragon attempts to destroy saints.
Chapter 13 expands upon the fall of China's puppet at Rev. 13:1-4 wherein this 1st beast is propagandized as the great leader of the free world.
At Rev. 13:5 we see the mouth that is one of the heads of the dragon (China) attacking as noted in Rev. 12:15-17 and then pushing the dragon's agenda to dominate the world throughout the remainder of the chapter.
I do not see an application to the 666 in the above scenario except that one of the heads of the dragon as noted in Rev. 12:3 is the false prophet in alignment with China and this again is the mouth that is the false prophet. Additionally, the head that is wounded to death as noted in Rev. 13:3 is the one destroyed at Rev. 12:11. Thus, of the heads of the dragon, two are referenced in Chapter 13 one of which was destroyed at Rev. 12:7-11 and one is the false prophet. Consequently, of the 7 heads of Rev. 12:3, two are mentioned in Chapter 13 and five are not except to say that all 7 are stated again at Rev. 13:1. In other words, the 7 heads are stated at Verses 12:3 and 13:1 showing that Chapter 13 is repeating Chapter 12 in part. 1) the dragon is in both chapters, 2) the false government that is the beast is killed in both chapters, and 3) the dragon's mouth that is the beast's mouth is the false prophet that is noted by the 666 and he is one of the 7 heads.
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Post by boraddict on Nov 25, 2020 11:13:19 GMT -6
Please consider that in The Book of Revelation the word "heaven" is used both literally and metaphorically. The following is an examination of the word "heaven" in Chapter 12.
Rev. 12:1, "And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars." Many agree that the word "heaven" applied literally in this verse (v. 12:1) causes the verse to describe the astronomical event 23 September 2017.
Rev. 12:2, "She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth." Here we see in this verse (v. 12:2) that the reference to "heaven" from the previous verse is obscured from it's literal application to more of a metaphorical application. This does not mean that the literal application of "heaven" in Verse 12:1 is wrong, but that at Verse 12:2 "heaven" from the previous verse takes on a metaphorical application. Thus, while the woman is in heaven (v. 12:1) she is pregnant and crying in birth pains (v. 12:2). Thus, "heaven" now represents the earth wherein the woman resides. Secondly, the 12 stars from the previous verse now represent the 12 apostles or 12 tribes etc. that are associated with the woman as does the sun and the moon. Thus, the woman that was an astronomical constellation in Verse 12:1 is now the church of Christ in Verse 12:2. IMO
Rev. 12:3, "And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems." Again, like the use of the word "heaven" in Verse 12:1 that was used literally (v. 12:1) and then applied metaphorically (v. 12:2); the use of the word "heaven" in Verse 12:3 can be applied literally, metaphorically, or both. Since there is not a dragon consolation then the literal application is void and the reasonable application of the word "heaven" in Verse 12:3 is metaphorical. Thus, like the woman that is the church of Christ in Verse 12:2 that is upon the earth then the dragon in Verse 12:3 is also upon the earth. Thus, "heaven" in Verse 12:3 represents the earth.
Side Note: There is also a metaphysical application that infers that the dragon (Satan) is a sign appearing in heaven, and while that may be the case at several locations in scripture it does not guarantee that application in the context of this chapter because we have been given two locational reference points that are literal (v. 12:1) and metaphorical (v. 12:2) but not metaphysical. Thus, for "another sign" to appear in the same heaven as appeared in Verse 12:1 or Verse 12:2 then the heaven of Verse 12:3 can not now become a metaphysical heaven. Thus, the heaven of Rev. 12:3 can only be metaphorical and that is the earth (IMO). This does not mean that the dragon appeared as did the astronomical event of Verse 12:1 but like the woman of Verse 12:2. That is, the woman has come down to us through the generations of mankind and likewise the dragon did as well. Thus, the dragon is China that has now (probably since 09-23-17) taken upon itself seven heads etc.
Rev. 12:4, "His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it." In this verse we see the dragon from the previous verse has a tail and this is a reference to an illegal government. With the illegal government the dragon sweeps one third of the stars (people) of the earth. The beautiful part of this verse is the illusion to the metaphysical that is so powerful to the translation. That the dragon (Satan) has cast one third of those in heaven (v. 12:3) to the earth. While that may be true, the heaven referenced in the previous verse is metaphorical. That is, like Verse 12:1 that was literal that was then followed by metaphorical in Verse 12:2; we now have Verse 12:3 that is metaphorical that is seemingly followed by metaphysical (v. 12:4). And, to me that is so amazingly beautiful because the application of Chapter 12 is not metaphysical but literal. Like, the chapter is about the literal events that are taking place upon the earth and not about those things in the metaphysical realm as in "before this world was."
Thus, Verse 12:4 is saying that the dragon that is China has an illegal government that sweeps one third of the world to the earth as in "kills them." And how does this illegal government do this? By standing before the woman to devour her child and this is the most difficult part of the translation of Chapter 12. How can an illegal government devour the child that comes from the woman? Because, the woman has given the legal and rightful government that must now be destroyed. That is, from the woman comes the legal government and from the dragon comes the illegal government that destroys.
Rev. 12:5, "She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne," Here we see the woman that is in heaven (upon the earth) that has given birth to the legitimate government and that government is now taken to God. However, the verses do not say that government was destroyed. And by the way the man-child is the head of the government as Christ is the head of the church (a shadow/type comparison).
Rev. 12:6, "and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days." The climax to the story is that the church is taken as was the man-child in the previous verse. So where were they taken in heaven? Here upon the earth somewhere, that appears to be first in their homes.
Rev. 12:7-11
Rev. 12:12-13
Rev. 12:14
Rev. 12:15-17
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Post by socalexile on Nov 25, 2020 20:59:26 GMT -6
So does that mean that some of the verses like Ezekiel 34:13 aren't talking about literal Israel, but the Americas? I think that would be a tough sell but those who are into Covenant Theology (and the Mormons) would eat it up.
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Post by boraddict on Nov 25, 2020 22:32:20 GMT -6
So does that mean that some of the verses like Ezekiel 34:13 aren't talking about literal Israel, but the Americas? I think that would be a tough sell but those who are into Covenant Theology (and the Mormons) would eat it up. I do not know much about Ezekiel 34:13 or Covenant Theology but I do know about the Mormons. In fact, I know more about their doctrine than most of them do. Their leadership is composed of liars and thieves (IMO) and the members are tricked into believing that those leaders are inspired by God. Their doctrine is rotten to the core. In fact Isaiah speaks to such doctrines in Chapter 28 and throughout his work. I love Isa. 28:9 wherein the priests and prophets that are false and drunken on their power do not have power over those whom draw away from such doctrines. Additionally, Isa. 1:10 gives a sharp condemnation by calling them Sodom and Gomorrah and then questioning why they give sacrifices. They give their time and money to show how righteous they are to what purpose since salvation is free; and all the while they grind the faces of the poor for more money (Isa. 3:15). In fact, they despise the poor for not being more productive. It is a sick church full of putrefying sores (Isa. 1:6). I do not see the connection between the Mormons whom need guidance from their false prophet and my analysis of Chapter 12 with a Trump perspective. Please explain some of your statement more fully so that I might be able to address some of your concerns. Post Script: I love your response and I love stating the obvious about the Mormons.  |
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Post by socalexile on Nov 26, 2020 7:58:52 GMT -6
I mention the Mormons because they believe Jesus will arrive in Missouri when He returns.
Covenant Theology is what the mainline Protestants believe, and basically those who believe in a non-futurist eschatology, and who believe that national Israel was replaced by the church.
Andy Woods explains it here:
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Post by boraddict on Nov 26, 2020 11:53:19 GMT -6
Thanks socalexile. You are partially correct when you state that "... the Mormons ... believe Jesus will arrive in Missouri when He returns." In fact they claim that the city of New Jerusalem descends to an area near Independence Missouri where Adam, the first man, gave his final address to the people before he died. This area they claim is called Adam-ondi-Ahman meaning Adam and Amen (Jesus). As in, "In the name of Jesus Chrsit: Amen. Please do not get me wrong because I mean no disrespect to the Savior. So if a people choose to call the Savior by another name such as Ahman (Amen) then what is that to me? In fact, I do not think that most of the LDS (Mormons) know this information. Like 99.9% do not know this. Because, it was taught in the 1840's and is not taught today. However, the descent of New Jerusalem to that location is not the same as the coming of the Savior in their doctrine. So let's think about this for a moment. If the world is rolled up like a scroll and destroyed according to scripture (Rev. 6:14), then the location of Independence Missouri for the descent of the city of New Jerusalem seems to be a mute point. Who cares at that point where the city of New Jerusalem descends (Rev. 21:1-2) and no one will be able to verify that it actually came down to any exact location here upon the earth (IMO). This makes me laugh to think that a specific location here upon the earth should be identified now for the location of New Jerusalem to descend to. Who cares? Yet, they in the 1840's were gathering to that location to be present for the descent of that holy city and that makes me sad to think that those people went through all that pain and suffering for what? A doctrine that was clearly misunderstood. |
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Post by boraddict on Nov 26, 2020 15:08:34 GMT -6
Thank you socalexile , and I have great respect for your work and observations. However, I do not conform to any doctrine that I am aware of. I did watch some of the video that you posted and will watch the remainder. So please correct me if I am wrong, but the doctrine of some churches that aspire to dispensational theology is that they take the text of the Bible to be literal except where the metaphorical is clearly obvious. This of course would depend upon the education of the individuals reading the text because some would say that this word is metaphorical as in the case of Matthew 9:24 wherein Jesus said the girl was sleeping; and they would be correct. Yet, some would say that the use of the word sleeping was literal as did the scorner's in the verse and they would be incorrect. So, I do not think that a firm assignment of dispensational theology to the scriptures would be completely accurate. It consigns the interpretation to those with a greater education and seemingly removes the one on one connection to the Savior. Who are the educated to say that the Savior can not teach via the metaphorical application of the text. They can not. That is, if the Savior decides to teach through a literal application or a metaphorical application then that is his business. Please consider that he taught via parables using the metaphorical such that very few could understand what he taught. So rather than me holding to dispensational theology with a literal application of the text, I would say that I lean towards a metaphorical application where possible with consideration to the other linguistic devises such as similes, types/shadows, etc. I do not dislike the literal, but the metaphorical is so much more liberating. Secondly, from the video, Covenant Theology approaches the scriptures from the idea that God's primary purpose it to redeem mankind. That is interesting because I have always considered such a doctrine to be inferior to the doctrine of God's work being to his glory. That is, from what I understand, the redemption of mankind has never been the primary purpose of God but his creations are done to his glory (Rev. 19:1). So I would have to disagree that my work leans toward Covenant Theology aspiring to redeem but to God's glory. In fact, Rev. 12:10 shows that the people are not persuaded by a covenant but to their commitment to God's glory. So while covenants are huge in scripture they are not my primary interest. That is, the covenant that Jesus would redeem mankind although vitally important is not the major part of the gospel; but the honor and glory to God is. Can you be more specific about my analysis concerning Chapter 12 in this thread that you might disagree or would like for me to expound upon? |
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Post by boraddict on Nov 28, 2020 10:22:34 GMT -6
I was watching J D's prophecy update from last week and was happy to see that he places "the mark of the beast" at the mid-point. I and Venge were discussing this very subject some time ago and have already agreed to that conclusion. The importance of this confirmation to me, via Venge and J. D., is that Chapter 13 is a mid-point chapter with Verses 1-4 being in retrospect and aligned with Verses 12:4-6. I say aligned with Verses 12:4-6 because those who "can make war" with the beast as asked at Rev. 13:4 do so at Rev. 12:7. Again, this means that Rev. 13:1-4 are referring back to Rev. 12:4-7; and, that Chapter 13 is a chapter that is in the mid-point. It is here, at the mid-point, that the 2nd beast that is also called "the mouth" forces mankind to take the mark. Please notice that this 2nd beast is called the mouth beginning at Rev. 12:15 and this means that the mid-point is fully underway at this verse.
The above conclusions further support that Chapter 14 is also represented in Chapter 12; evidenced via the mark of the beast that is fully underway at Rev. 14:9-11.
So what am I saying? That Chapter 12 is the elephant in the room when looking at the totality of the Book of Revelation. In fact, I think that John centered that chapter in the book for that very reason. Thus we have the story ending at Chapter 11 (Rev. 11:19) and then the gigantic and great sign at Rev. 12:1. To me John is providing a very powerful statement to grab everyones attention. Even those who do not agree with great sign conclusion can not dismiss the Chapter 11 ending and that something new takes place at Verse 12:1.
Thus, what is it about the incredible Chapter 12? That the entire unfolding of the story is here (IMO). We have the beginning at Rev. 12:1 and then the stage is set at Rev. 12:2 with the woman that is the church with one of her sons. Then at Rev. 12:3 China aligns with other nations to stop the church and her son. Then at Rev. 12:4 an illegitimate government is supported by China and her allies. At Rev. 12:5 the son is taken to God and this is clearly a type and shadow relationship to the Savior. Thus, the Savior's recognized church and her recognized son are take to God in Rev. 12:5-6.
Next we see those who can make war with the beast standing with Christ (Rev. 14:1) and they do so at Rev. 12:7. Wow, that is incredible and represented in Chapter 14 as the Savior upon the cloud (Rev. 14:14). Thus, the harvest of Rev. 14:14-16 is represented in Chapter 12 as a shadow of the war in heaven as the type. That is, the harvest is at Rev. 12:7-11 and it is about to begin. But first we must see the church going to God as shown in Rev. 12:6 and this follows the attack upon Trump as is taking place right now and more-so in the very near future. Clearly within the next 4 years (IMO); and most likely within the next few months.
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Post by venge on Nov 29, 2020 8:20:32 GMT -6
I was watching J D's prophecy update from last week and was happy to see that he places "the mark of the beast" at the mid-point. I and Venge were discussing this very subject some time ago and have already agreed to that conclusion. The importance of this confirmation to me, via Venge and J. D., is that Chapter 13 is a mid-point chapter with Verses 1-4 being in retrospect and aligned with Verses 12:4-6. I say aligned with Verses 12:4-6 because those who "can make war" with the beast as asked at Rev. 13:4 do so at Rev. 12:7. Again, this means that Rev. 13:1-4 are referring back to Rev. 12:4-7; and, that Chapter 13 is a chapter that is in the mid-point. It is here, at the mid-point, that the 2nd beast that is also called "the mouth" forces mankind to take the mark. Please notice that this 2nd beast is called the mouth beginning at Rev. 12:15 and this means that the mid-point is fully underway at this verse. The above conclusions further support that Chapter 14 is also represented in Chapter 12; evidenced via the mark of the beast that is fully underway at Rev. 14:9-11. So what am I saying? That Chapter 12 is the elephant in the room when looking at the totality of the Book of Revelation. In fact, I think that John centered that chapter in the book for that very reason. Thus we have the story ending at Chapter 11 (Rev. 11:19) and then the gigantic and great sign at Rev. 12:1. To me John is providing a very powerful statement to grab everyones attention. Even those who do not agree with great sign conclusion can not dismiss the Chapter 11 ending and that something new takes place at Verse 12:1. Thus, what is it about the incredible Chapter 12? That the entire unfolding of the story is here (IMO). We have the beginning at Rev. 12:1 and then the stage is set at Rev. 12:2 with the woman that is the church with one of her sons. Then at Rev. 12:3 China aligns with other nations to stop the church and her son. Then at Rev. 12:4 an illegitimate government is supported by China and her allies. At Rev. 12:5 the son is taken to God and this is clearly a type and shadow relationship to the Savior. Thus, the Savior's recognized church and her recognized son are take to God in Rev. 12:5-6. Next we see those who can make war with the beast standing with Christ (Rev. 14:1) and they do so at Rev. 12:7. Wow, that is incredible and represented in Chapter 14 as the Savior upon the cloud (Rev. 14:14). Thus, the harvest of Rev. 14:14-16 is represented in Chapter 12 as a shadow of the war in heaven as the type. That is, the harvest is at Rev. 12:7-11 and it is about to begin. But first we must see the church going to God as shown in Rev. 12:6 and this follows the attack upon Trump as is taking place right now and more-so in the very near future. Clearly within the next 4 years (IMO); and most likely within the next few months. I do differ from that thought somewhat boraddict. I am still unsure if there are 7 years or only 3.5 years left and I technically lean towards only 3.5 years remaining. The midpoint would still be the AoD, but all or at least most of the first 3.5 years would have already commenced and completed when Christ walked. The beast was given a mouth: I do agree that "the mouth" given to the beast that speaks pompous words, arrogant, speaks against God and his saints and causes all to worship the first beast of the sea who he speaks for (the mouth)...is the 2nd beast known as the beast of the earth (false prophet). I take much of Rev 12 as a past event. Honestly, the crucial part is the end where Satan goes to war with us (those that have the testimony of Christ and follow God's commandments)...not national Israel that doesnt have faith. We have to be here on earth with the AC and not escape in order to make this statement true. I dont know who the 4th Kingdom will ally with. It's anyone's guess. Some think China, Europe, Russia or America. Just by their guesses, that covers a good part of the world already lol. I think its prudent to look for a rebellion first..before the man of sin is revealed. You said: Thus, the harvest of Rev. 14:14-16 is represented in Chapter 12 as a shadow of the war in heaven as the type. I dont think the war in heaven is the harvest. I think war in heaven is spiritual war against truth. Satan cast down with his falsehoods 1/3rd. Lies are meant to overshadow truth. The harvest is at the end of the age, the war in heaven precedes the end because Satan goes to make war with us at that time. IMO, the harvest comprises 2 parts: Rescuing the righteous while destroying the wicked. Joel 3 tells us the Day of the Lord is near the harvest - not before it...and that harvest is found in Rev 14 way way after Babylon is destroyed. Pre TB has to explain why scripture says the DotL happens that late in the 70th week while they maintain the DotL happens at the first seal (scripture doesnt say that anywhere). |
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Post by boraddict on Nov 29, 2020 19:14:29 GMT -6
venge , please consider Chapters 17 and 18 wherein Babylon falls. The beast is mentioned at Rev. 17:3 and then the angel begins to explain that particular beast starting at Rev. 17:8. This beast in my opinion is the mouth that is mentioned in Chapters 12 and 13 that is also the false prophet. Thus, the first beast is referenced in Rev. 13:1-3 and the second beast is referenced in Rev. 13:4-18. As I said, this second beast is the Chapter 17 beast. So it is that the first beast has the heads and the horns (Rev. 13:1) and then the second beast has the heads and horns as well (Rev. 17:3); because, the first beast is dead. Not only is the first beast dead in Chapter 17 but in chapter 13 as well with the reference to the first beast (Rev. 13:1-2) in retrospect. So it is that the emphasis of the BofR is not upon the first but the second beast and it is he that dominates the landscape throughout the BofR where the beast/false prophet are mentioned. Thus, the first beast tends to function in the first 3.5 years and the second beast that is the false prophet dominates the world in the second 3.5 years that the BofR is primarily about (IMO). That is, Chapters 7-11 as well as 13-19 are about the second 3.5 year period of time. Not only that, but over half of Chapters 6 and 12 are are also about the second beast. From that it seems that the first 3.5 years is somewhat uneventful by comparison. Yet, we should see the civil war in that first 3.5 years. Post Script: As I said above, the two chapters that include the first beast in the chronology is Chapters 6 and 12 (IMO). Chapter 6 has the interactions with the first beast at Rev. 1-7 and Chapter 12 has the interactions with the first beast at Rev. 12:1-11. Then at Rev. 6:8 the second beast comes on line; however, in Chapter 12 the second beast does not come on line until after the war at Rev. 12:12 wherein we are told "woe" that appears to be the woe of Rev. 9:1. Thus, it appears that the Isa. 19 civil war is mentioned at Rev. 6:5-6, 12:7-11. This war includes the first beast but not the second that is the beast mouthing great things against God. Thus, his mouth is in false prophecy about the first beast and he is not necessarily a religious false prophet.
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Post by boraddict on Dec 5, 2020 20:04:40 GMT -6
Rev. 12:6 shows that God has a place prepared in the wilderness to which the woman flees; and, she is safe there for 3.5 years. Which by the way is the first 3.5 years of the 7 years of tribulation. The second 3.5 years of the 7 year tribulation is referenced in Rev. 12:14. Thus, the woman is safe for the entire 7 years of tribulation. This woman of course is the bride of Christ.
Given that Verses 1-6 are in chronological order, Rev. 12:5 must occur prior to the 7 years of tribulation. It is here that the man-child is taken and he was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. Better stated, he was to rule all nations as the leader of the free world. However, as the verse shows, this leader is caught up to God and to his throne. Or perhaps better stated, this leader was taken before the church is taken.
Rev. 12:4 is in two parts the second of which is that the dragon from Verse 3 stands before the Savior's church to destroy her man-child before said child can take power. Before said man-child is born to his calling. Before said man-child assumes the oath of office.
The first part of Verse 12:4 is that the dragon's tail that is an illegal government draws one third of the hosts of heaven, and casts them to the earth. As in, the fraudulent government casts 1/3rd down in an overthrow. This is the election of 3 Nov. 2020.
Rev. 12:3 shows the dragon with his supporting world governments and leaders.
Rev. 12:2 shows the woman waiting to be delivered and this takes place in Verse 12:6 as well as her child that comes forth and is delivered in Verse 12:5.
Rev. 12:1 identifies the time of the great sign wherein the following verses will occur.
Now in correct order:
1) the great sign, 9-23-17
2) the church waiting to be delivered to the rapture and she is with child that is also waiting to be delivered to the rapture both of which occur in Verses 12:5-6.
3) the dragon rises to overthrow the woman and her child
4) the plan of the dragon is to put in a false government to overthrow the woman and her child and the plan failed/was discovered, the dragon strikes when the man-child takes the oath of office (when born).
5) the man-child is taken
6) the church is taken
All the above is my personal opinion as to what Rev. 12:1-6 might be saying.
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Post by boraddict on Dec 5, 2020 22:36:35 GMT -6
After my last posting I then watched some TV. However, I could not stop thinking about Chapter 12 and the chronological order thereof. Something was wrong with the dragon connection at Verse 13:2 in it's relation to the center portion of Chapter 12. So please consider Chapter 12 in it's three parts as follows: 1) part 1 that is Rev. 12:1-6 2) part 2 that is Rev. 12:7-11
3) part 3 that is Rev. 12:12-17 So let's say that part 1 is real time, and that part 2 is retrospect (and in sync with Rev. 13:1-3 because the beast has been defeated in these verses), and then part 3 being rhetorical to parts 1 and 2. That is, instead of Chapter 12 being entirely chronological, it has chronology within each of the 3 parts like this: Part 1) Rev. 12:1 the great sign Rev. 12:2 the church wants the rapture Rev. 12:3 the dragon (China) begins his plan to conquer Rev. 12:4 the false government of the 3 Nov. 20 U. S. elections and this is further explained at Rev. 13:1-2 Part 2) Rev. 12:5-6 the man-child is taken to God and this concept is developed further as the war in heaven at Rev. 12:7-11 that is the U. S. Civil War. Please notice that the saints are not called out but to the war front as shown in "the war in heaven" type that is given in Verses 12:7-11. It is here that Rev. 13:3 finds it application that the beast is dead; not wounded in the head, but actually killed. Part 3) Rev. 12:12-13 the dragon that is China that is against the man-child during the 3.5 year civil war now doubles down against the world with a second beast proclaiming allegiance to the first China beast that has now been defeated. Rev. 12:14 saints taken again for their protection as the second China beast is loosed Rev. 12:15-17 is restated in Rev. 13:4-18 This alignment explains the inner workings of Chapter 12 such that at Chapter 14 the 144,000 have already been gathered. Said gathering took place at Verses 12:5-6, 12:14, or both. Thus, at Chapter 14 both Chapter 12 and 13 have transpired and there are but few references in Chapter 14 to those alignments. Mainly in retrospect at Verses 14:6-12. The above analysis places the Chapter 14 harvest in the second 3.5 years and not only that but at the end of that period followed by the winepress. venge, I think this analysis goes along with your position that the actions of the Lord are at the end of the 7 years; the harvest and the winepress. |
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Post by venge on Dec 7, 2020 7:42:39 GMT -6
boraddict, I am unsure if Daniel's 70th week is partly finished. In any case, I would put the harvest in the last 3.5 years as you suggested; specifically at the end. The reaping is the subject and 2 things are reaped. In the first part, the earth is deemed ripe for reaping. I currently understand this as linking the reaping of the earth with the resurrection of the dead and rapture of the living. But I am open to other possible explanations. The harvest is meant to separate the 2 distinct groups and the first group is saved from God's wrath which destroys the latter. In this second part of the harvest, the angel had power over fire to symbolize destruction. Fire destroys and it removes what was once leaving nothing but ash which the wind blows away...never to be seen again. This time, it isnt the harvest of the earth that is ripe and reaped, it is the clusters of the vine of the earth. What type of vine is this? A worldly vine absent of God and Christ? And it is cast into the winepress to be destroyed. The word used here to denote wrath is "thumos". That word is used in all the bowl judgements, not the Trumpets. It is linked to Rev 19:15 Therefore, the harvest of the earth of those not destined for the winepress must precede this event. Now, I understand you and many here disagree with my view because its foreign or perhaps they just don't see it. But I find is it remarkable the event that precedes the winepress in Rev 19 is Christ beginning to reign, his wife just made herself ready and was accepted to wear white linen and the blessed are called to the wedding supper. This is another reason I tie in that event of Christ reign with the harvest of the earth. Because Rev 11 says: What reward is this when Christ comes into his Kingdom? What reward are prophets, saints and everyone else small and great should receive at his appearing and his kingdom? And notice the next line, to destroy those that destroy the earth - after that reward is given to his people. Rev 11 ends there and I believe it continues chronologically at Rev 15. This is where "thumas" comes in. It ends the Trumpets and begins to start the bowls. But something happens in verse 8 where the temple of God is clouded with smoke and no one can enter his temple till the bowls are finished. This period of time blocks man from entering the temple. Why do you think men are prevented to enter during God's poured out wrath versus the Trumpets "Orge"? In the Trumpets, the temple does not prevent people from entering. We are even told, the wicked "did not repent of their sorceries and their thefts and their..." They could repent and be saved. The door wasnt closed yet.
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Post by boraddict on Dec 7, 2020 11:57:03 GMT -6
Thank you venge , so we agree that the harvest, as well as the winepress, both being located at Rev. 14:14-20, are at the end of the 7 years. We also agree that the mark of the beast is in the second 3.5 year period of time. Like this: 5) midpoint 6) mark of the beast 7) 8) harvest/winepress at the end This means that the mark of the beast verses at Rev. 14:9-11 reflect back to Chapter 13 wherein the the mark is described and placed into action. Thus, we agree that Chapter 13 is placed chronologically after the midpoint and that Verses 14:9-11 are referring back to that time just after the midpoint; because, that 2nd beast lasts for the entire 3.5 years (Rev. 13:5). Also, please consider that Rev. 14:12 has it's chronological placement after the midpoint because it has a solid link to Rev. 13:10 via "the patience of the saints." 5) midpoint 6) mark of the beast and patience of the saints (Rev. 13, 14:9-12) 7) marriage Rev. 14:13, 19:1-9 8) harvest/winepress at the end (Rev. 14:14-20, 19:11-21) Please notice that item number 7 is Rev. 14:13 that is the "saying unto me, Write Blessed are" verse that has a hard link to Rev. 19:9. This seems to indicate that Rev. 19:1-9 have a placement here at the 7th position. That is, the marriage is in the second 3.5 years and perhaps at the end of or concurrent to the 3.5 year reign of the beast. Secondly, this seems to show that Rev. 19:11-21 have an association to the harvest and winepress. It may also be the case that the marriage is the harvest. At any rate, they both exist after the midpoint and after the mark of the beast. Next, please consider the fall of Babylon at Rev. 14:8 that has it's placement before the mark of the beast verses at Rev. 14:9-11. This fall is found in Chapter 17 and the details of the aftermath is in Chapter 18. Since the fall of Babylon is linked to the mark of the beast then it's placement is as follows: 5) midpoint 6) fall of Babylon/mark of the beast/patience of the saints (Rev. 17, 13, 14:9-12, 18) 7) marriage 8) harvest/winepress at the end Lastly, consider the angel at Rev. 14:6-7 that has a hard link via "fly through the midst of heaven (KJV)" to Rev. 8:13. Since this angel precedes the fall of Babylon in Chapter 14 then it should also place chronologically at the midpoint. This means that Rev. 14:1-5 are prior to or concurrent with the midpoint. This also suggests that the 3 woes belong after the midpoint and I would say that the first is the fall of Babylon, the second is the mark of the beast and the third is the winepress. This also suggests that the four trumpets of Chapter 8 are in the first 3.5 years as follows: 4) the four trumpets are before the midpoint 5) midpoint 6) 1st woe that is the fall of Babylon, 2nd woe that is the mark of the beast/patience of the saints 7) marriage 8) harvest/winepress at the end that is the 3rd woe The above chronology is quite attractive because it places the sealing of the 144,000 prior to the midpoint; prior to the 4 trumpets of chapter 8. Thus we can make the connection that the 1st gathering at Rev. 12:6 is the sealing of the 144,000 for the war at Rev. 12:7-11 and then the 2nd gathering at Rev. 12:14 is the gathering for the Chapter 19 marriage. This seems to point to this second gathering for the marriage as taking place at the midpoint whereas the first gathering at 12:6 taking place at the beginning of the 7 years. Thus, items 6 and 7 occur at or concurrent with the midpoint. It all happens very fast. |
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Post by venge on Dec 7, 2020 13:31:29 GMT -6
boraddict , I don't place all of Ch. 13 after the midpoint. I place the false prophet and the mark after the midpoint within the remainder of the 42 mo's. The beast of the sea, in the early portion of Ch.13, is absent of the 11th horn. It is made up of 10 horns and these horns make war with the saints and they are responsible for destroying Babylon BEFORE the AC comes in. The 11 horn, the Anti-Christ, will humble or remove 3 of them when he comes to power. That hasnt happened here. All 10 still exist and without the AC, they destroy Babylon. IMO, I'd remove the "midpoint" because it assumes a full 7 years. I don't see that anywhere in Revelation. Everything in it seems to depict the last 3.5 years. What should be number 5 on your list should be what precedes the mark and that should be Babylon's destruction per Rev 14 Rev 14 only gives us some chronology. We need to look at other Chapters to add in the rest. For Rev 14, it is: 1. 144k 2. Babylon destroyed 3. Mark of the beast 4. Harvest of the earth 5. Winepress of Wrath (Thumos) In Rev 19, it is: 1. Babylon destroyed 3. Christ reigns 4. Bride makes herself ready 5. Wedding supper 6. Winepress 7. Destruction of the beast of the sea and the beast of the earth By these 2 examples, the harvest in Rev 14 must come before the winepress in Rev 19. Also, Christ reign and the bride making herself ready must come after Babylon is destroyed in Rev 14 but before the winepress. You need to look at other Ch's to fill in the rest =P I dont know. Just because the words express a blessing doesnt mean there has to be a linkage between them. The blessing in Rev 14 refers back to the previous statement IMHO. The mark was initiated and any believer refusing it or abstaining from whatever wickedness appears that is contrary to God (like Idol worship) are considered blessed. I definitely don't see the Trumpets before the midpoint. I see them in the same 42 mo's If I were to give a real world look at it, it may look like this: 1. Something happens in the world that triggers a revolt against Christians. Much like the fire in ancient Rome that caused great Christian persecution. Tribulation starts 2. Sometime after this persecution period, or perhaps during it, the beast of the sea is already setup (for they persecute the saints and make war with them) 3. This grouping of nations or peoples that persecute Christians want to destroy a spiritual Babylon that exists throughout the whole world in the form of trade, capitalism, power, etc... 4. This system that the world uses to receive and sell goods is extinguished and causes job loss (unemployment), economic disaster, loss of goods that people lust after... 5. A man steps in that says: I know a way to fix it. We can have all our things back that we just lost and all it takes is to follow me. 6. This man gets people to agree and they follow him, but what they don't know is Babylon was ordained by God to be destroyed because of its wickedness. Trying to recreate it (so you can buy and sell whoever has the mark) is blasphemy. Rev 2:26 says, Overcome what all the way to the end? We are told this more than once. The end isnt with 7 years remaining. We must overcome spiritual difficulties. Those truly in Christ will not have difficulty. Those that are borderline will have trouble. That is the patience and faith of the saints when the mark comes.
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