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Post by stellaluxor on Oct 25, 2020 19:58:37 GMT -6
Ask yourself some questions:
1. Do all believers participate in the rapture?
2. What criteria, beyond being a believer is required to participate?
3. If you answered "Yes" to 1, and "Nothing" to 2 then go to paragraph 1.
4. If you answered "Yes" to 1, and anything other than nothing to 2, then go to paragraph 2.
5. If you answered "No" to 1, please go to paragraph 3.
Paragraph 1:
Then why are we told to watch? Be ready? Look Up? etc? What is there to watch for, be ready for? If all believers go and there is nothing to do in order to go, what are all the warnings for? They are not warnings to non-believers. Go to paragraph 4.
Paragraph 2:
At this point, you have contradicted yourself - if all believers go in the rapture, there is nothing we can do to increase our chances. Some are not "better" believers than others. We either are a believer and we go, or we are not a believer. Go to paragraph 4.
Paragraph 3:
You may not realize this, but you are in the minority. Most of the church teaches that all believers will go in the rapture and the great dispute is when they shall go. This little essay is less for you than it is for the rest of the body. However, please feel free to continue with paragraph 4 if you believe that you (or some group of believers) will be raptured out of here prior to the coming trouble.
Paragraph 4:
You have been fooled into believing you will be rescued out at the very time you are most needed to serve on earth. The plan of God calls for us to be on the earth to serve during the coming trouble. But most of His church is desiring - yes - ecstatic about escaping their much needed service. We don't need "watchers on the wall" to warn us about something we cannot even avoid. If we are saved, we are going according to all of you - so then what is the point of the watchers? We cannot be "better" prepared. If we can be "better" prepared, than you teach salvation by works, and not by faith. So you should all stop watching.
It doesn't matter if I am sleeping, or swimming, or in surgery when the trumpet sounds. If I am a believer - according to your answer to question 1 - I am going in the rapture. So all the watching is a big waste of time and is just a self serving activity to make people feel smart or informed.
What if, instead, you are being called to watch and be ready so that you know the times and are prepared to go into service when needed - not raptured out when needed most.
This is the true message of the Watchers on the Wall - That you need to prepare to serve! On Earth! During the coming trouble. Don't fall for the lies of the watchers who tell you to be ready for rapture. There is even a phrase "rapture ready" that is an abomination. We are to be ready and suited with the armor of God, with our lamps fully stocked and oiled to serve. Listen only to the watchers who are preparing you for the coming trouble - not those who are promising easy escapism.
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Post by Natalie on Oct 25, 2020 20:22:07 GMT -6
Welcome to the forum. Have you browsed enough to be familiar with the basic forum rules?
To address your post -- It's not easy escapism... it's the blessed hope.
You will find believers here at Unsealed with different ideas of when the rapture takes place. It's fine to add your opinions and scripture to go with it, but remember to be considerate of other believers.
How I see it -- What is coming is the Time of Jacob's Trouble. The church won't be here.
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Post by socalexile on Oct 25, 2020 23:34:50 GMT -6
It's like OP is telling us that Christ doesn't save, that it is ultimately up to us and our works.
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Post by fitz on Oct 26, 2020 4:40:52 GMT -6
OP has a works based salvation and fails see the forest for the trees.
"at the very time you are most needed" - No, where we are at right now indicates that what we need now is not ourselves, but Jesus. Only He can save.
"The plan of God calls for us to be on the earth to serve during the coming trouble." No, the plan of God is to judge this world. We have not been reserved for that. No groom who genuinely loves his bride would drag her through the mud just prior marrying her.
"ecstatic about escaping their much needed service" - No, ecstatic about standing before our Lord and Savior. Ecstatic to finally see him crowned King of kings before the entire world.
Watch - It's an act of obedience. Jesus clearly tells us that when we see the time approaching, we are to watch... and by the way, Jesus himself calls it an "escape". Why do you deride it? Watch for what?
Luke 21:28
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Luke 21:34-36
34 “Watch out! Don’t let your hearts be dulled by carousing and drunkenness, and by the worries of this life. Don’t let that day catch you unaware, 35 like a trap. For that day will come upon everyone living on the earth. 36 Keep alert at all times. And pray that you might be strong enough to escape these coming horrors and stand before the Son of Man.”
What coming horrors? The time of Jacob's trouble. We won't be here for that.
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Post by venge on Oct 26, 2020 6:42:04 GMT -6
Ask yourself some questions: 1. Do all believers participate in the rapture? 2. What criteria, beyond being a believer is required to participate? 3. If you answered "Yes" to 1, and "Nothing" to 2 then go to paragraph 1. 4. If you answered "Yes" to 1, and anything other than nothing to 2, then go to paragraph 2. 5. If you answered "No" to 1, please go to paragraph 3. Paragraph 1:Then why are we told to watch? Be ready? Look Up? etc? What is there to watch for, be ready for? If all believers go and there is nothing to do in order to go, what are all the warnings for? They are not warnings to non-believers. Go to paragraph 4. Paragraph 2:At this point, you have contradicted yourself - if all believers go in the rapture, there is nothing we can do to increase our chances. Some are not "better" believers than others. We either are a believer and we go, or we are not a believer. Go to paragraph 4. Paragraph 3:You may not realize this, but you are in the minority. Most of the church teaches that all believers will go in the rapture and the great dispute is when they shall go. This little essay is less for you than it is for the rest of the body. However, please feel free to continue with paragraph 4 if you believe that you (or some group of believers) will be raptured out of here prior to the coming trouble. Paragraph 4:You have been fooled into believing you will be rescued out at the very time you are most needed to serve on earth. The plan of God calls for us to be on the earth to serve during the coming trouble. But most of His church is desiring - yes - ecstatic about escaping their much needed service. We don't need "watchers on the wall" to warn us about something we cannot even avoid. If we are saved, we are going according to all of you - so then what is the point of the watchers? We cannot be "better" prepared. If we can be "better" prepared, than you teach salvation by works, and not by faith. So you should all stop watching. It doesn't matter if I am sleeping, or swimming, or in surgery when the trumpet sounds. If I am a believer - according to your answer to question 1 - I am going in the rapture. So all the watching is a big waste of time and is just a self serving activity to make people feel smart or informed. What if, instead, you are being called to watch and be ready so that you know the times and are prepared to go into service when needed - not raptured out when needed most. This is the true message of the Watchers on the Wall - That you need to prepare to serve! On Earth! During the coming trouble. Don't fall for the lies of the watchers who tell you to be ready for rapture. There is even a phrase "rapture ready" that is an abomination. We are to be ready and suited with the armor of God, with our lamps fully stocked and oiled to serve. Listen only to the watchers who are preparing you for the coming trouble - not those who are promising easy escapism. , I had to read through all of this twice to understand what you were trying to get at. It would have helped to add an introduction and reasons for the questions first. In regards to your question: You do not have the correct answer up there. The answer is NO. Yet when you answer it this way, which ALL believers regardless of theory hold to, you put them into a minority category which is incorrect. The truth is, all believers do not participate in the rapture. Some participate in the rapture, most likely, most participate in the resurrection of the dead. That is the answer. To answer your original question, the Bible states all believers will not participate in the rapture (because of the RotD) and the majority believe that. I will agree, the church's responsibility in those times lay with its members to help in that time and I believe the church will be called to do so under persecution. In that statement, I am in the minority on this site. |
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Post by mike on Oct 26, 2020 6:48:07 GMT -6
So as to not pile on here, lets give stellaluxor an opportunity to reply after an intense first post |
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Post by venge on Oct 26, 2020 6:48:51 GMT -6
Welcome to the forum. Have you browsed enough to be familiar with the basic forum rules? To address your post -- It's not easy escapism... it's the blessed hope. You will find believers here at Unsealed with different ideas of when the rapture takes place. It's fine to add your opinions and scripture to go with it, but remember to be considerate of other believers. How I see it -- What is coming is the Time of Jacob's Trouble. The church won't be here. , You are probably aware, but I will post it anyway...(for other readers) For those that are not Pre-TB, the blessed hope is being saved out of the worst of times when it appears there is no hope at all. Many (non Pre-TB) see the "blessed hope" passage that Pre-TB users quote (because they believe we will be out of here before that) as their escapism. The reason is because they (Pre-TB) cannot imagine us going through it though every apostle (the early church) did so as a Christian. For us, escapism seems like cheating what we believe we are called to do in those times when I realize that for you or others, its not cheating, it is just you believe that is when the DotL starts therefore you are saved before it. And that is the issue. It is not rapture placement. Its the DotL placement. Good sources for those looking for that placement lie in Joel 1-3 and Zechariah. |
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Post by fitz on Oct 26, 2020 6:51:39 GMT -6
Incidentally, as much as it's an escape, more wonderfully, it's a rescue.
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Post by venge on Oct 26, 2020 6:59:30 GMT -6
Incidentally, as much as it's an escape, more wonderfully, it's a rescue. Truth be told fitz. You are correct and in every theory, we all believe we are removed from the wrath therefore we all believe in a form of "escapism" from wrath. It is just when does it happen that we differ on. I didnt specify above, but I think he was eluding to escape from tribulation which is persecution. Nowhere are we said to escape from that; instead we are to endure it. |
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Post by bernie on Oct 26, 2020 8:35:55 GMT -6
Sounds like a clear violation of rule #1 to me.
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Post by stellaluxor on Oct 26, 2020 10:41:42 GMT -6
It's like OP is telling us that Christ doesn't save, that it is ultimately up to us and our works. I am saying the Exact opposite socalexile.... I am saying that there is no point in being warned about the rapture if all living believers will be raptured. Why do we keep "warning" believers of something that they will automatically participate in? There is nothing a believers can do to change their circumstance - because I believe the opposite of what you claim I believe - be warned about. If they are saved and alive, they are going to be raptured. That is what most of you preach right? Well then why all the watchers and warners? What are they warning about. Don't tell me they are warning unbelievers - because that is only a small part of what this site does. This is primarily a site where believers tell each other what they think will happen and call themselves watchers. But what are they watching for if all living believers will be raptured anyway? It is they that seem to be saying that we can somehow be MORE PREPARED for a rapture and thus the need to all the watching and warning. It is I who say, THE HAVE BEEN PREPARED BY THE WORK OF CHRIST, and so they do not need to be warned. Thus all the watchers are meaningless. Unless - Unless we are to watch and warn because we will not be raptured out of here when we think we will. The only reason we would be told to watch and in need of warnings is because we do not get raptured out when we think we do. If my post is not clear enough, perhaps, next time, ask questions instead of assuming (and posting) that I mean the opposite of what I say in my post. |
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Post by stellaluxor on Oct 26, 2020 10:43:35 GMT -6
Welcome to the forum. Have you browsed enough to be familiar with the basic forum rules? To address your post -- It's not easy escapism... it's the blessed hope. You will find believers here at Unsealed with different ideas of when the rapture takes place. It's fine to add your opinions and scripture to go with it, but remember to be considerate of other believers. How I see it -- What is coming is the Time of Jacob's Trouble. The church won't be here. I understand your position on this very well - and I held that position for many years. But it is incorrect. And I am here to warn you (as a true watchman would) that sudden destruction will come upon us if we are not prepared. We do not need watchmen to warn us of something that is out of our control (going up in the rapture). We need watchmen to warn us to be prepared for battle and service. |
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Post by stellaluxor on Oct 26, 2020 10:50:08 GMT -6
OP has a works based salvation and fails see the forest for the trees. "at the very time you are most needed" - No, where we are at right now indicates that what we need now is not ourselves, but Jesus. Only He can save. "The plan of God calls for us to be on the earth to serve during the coming trouble." No, the plan of God is to judge this world. We have not been reserved for that. No groom who genuinely loves his bride would drag her through the mud just prior marrying her. "ecstatic about escaping their much needed service" - No, ecstatic about standing before our Lord and Savior. Ecstatic to finally see him crowned King of kings before the entire world. Watch - It's an act of obedience. Jesus clearly tells us that when we see the time approaching, we are to watch... and by the way, Jesus himself calls it an "escape". Why do you deride it? Watch for what? Luke 21:28 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. Luke 21:34-36 34 “ Watch out! Don’t let your hearts be dulled by carousing and drunkenness, and by the worries of this life. Don’t let that day catch you unaware, 35 like a trap. For that day will come upon everyone living on the earth. 36 Keep alert at all times. And pray that you might be strong enough to escape these coming horrors and stand before the Son of Man.” What coming horrors? The time of Jacob's trouble. We won't be here for that. So, like others, you did not read well my original post because it offended you so.... You are actually making my point. and you will find that I am the most God based non-works based believer you will ever find in all the earth. That is not an exaggeration. It is all God all the time. You don't even have a choice in it - but that is for another discussion. Back to this one: You are making my point by about the watching - We only need to watch for something if we control the outcome of it. If we have no choice but to be taken because we are a believer - then what is the point of watching and warning? Before regurgitating an immediate response to this - please actually think about what I am saying. If I told you that at some point you would suddenly find $1M in your bank account. That there was nothing you could do about it. It would just show up. The only point of watching would be to spend it. But if I said, you needed to do something to receive that $1M so watch and make sure you do what ever it is you need to do, otherwise you won't get the $1M, you would then pay attention and make sure to perform that task. But mainstream Christianity (and most here at this site) would say that all living believers will automatically fly in the rapture - so then - what is the point of watching? It is automatic. The verses you used to "prove" your point actually prove mine - You must be prepared for something - because you will not be raptured out until after stuff happens and you need to be prepared for that stuff and that stuff is to serve your fellow man on this earth - not be raptured out. Your rapture will happen - but not when you think. It will after later than you think. |
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Post by stellaluxor on Oct 26, 2020 10:52:12 GMT -6
stellaluxor , I had to read through all of this twice to understand what you were trying to get at. It would have helped to add an introduction and reasons for the questions first. In regards to your question: You do not have the correct answer up there. The answer is NO. Yet when you answer it this way, which ALL believers regardless of theory hold to, you put them into a minority category which is incorrect. The truth is, all believers do not participate in the rapture. Some participate in the rapture, most likely, most participate in the resurrection of the dead. That is the answer. To answer your original question, the Bible states all believers will not participate in the rapture (because of the RotD) and the majority believe that. I will agree, the church's responsibility in those times lay with its members to help in that time and I believe the church will be called to do so under persecution. In that statement, I am in the minority on this site. Agreed, Venge - I should have added the condition of living believers. I am not addressing the ROTD. Just the rapture of the living. I see them as the same event over a short period of time and therefore expressed them as one. They are the same thing. ROTD/Rapture. |
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Post by stellaluxor on Oct 26, 2020 10:57:15 GMT -6
Sounds like a clear violation of rule #1 to me. Because I said something you disagree with? Time is short and I am not here to soft pedal the truth. At this site, you have all become accustomed to sharing opinions and then politely debating those opinions. That is fine and dandy, but they are all just opinions. This has led you all to a place in the mind where you think one opinion about the End of the Age and the Day of the Lord is just as good or likely true as another opinion. This is not the case. Some opinions are just wrong and others are right. There will be no pre-tribulation rapture. I am here to warn you of this. Most peoples whole concept of the tribulation is skewed and prevents understanding of what shall come at the End of the Age (EoA) and the Day of the Lord (DoL). We must prepare ourselves to serve - not be lifted out. We must overcome - not be rescued. This is your warning. If it is not spoken politely enough, I'll try to soften, but I am more concerned about impacting this site with the truth before the are caught up in a great deception that is already upon them. |
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