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Post by stormyknight on Apr 9, 2020 17:45:27 GMT -6
disciple4life, I was hoping by doing this we could clarify a great many things. Perhaps by putting the verses in order we can figure out if the Day of Wrath and the Day of the Lord and the rapture all happen on the same day. Clarify "in the days" from "in that day", etc etc. and yes, I don't want to hijack this thread either, so I will start a new thread. Not sure where so I will put it in "Apologetics.." If that is not the right place, Gary, or mike, would you mind putting it in the right category? Thank you in advance. I'll start with what I have and add some to it. I would suggest that anyone just copy the verses instead of quoting so that each post doesn't become a mile high. Then place the verses you want where you think they should go and I guess maybe at the bottom show how you got there? or something. I'm playing this by ear. If anyone has a better way to do it, please speak up.
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Post by mike on Apr 9, 2020 18:22:13 GMT -6
disciple4life, I was hoping by doing this we could clarify a great many things. Perhaps by putting the verses in order we can figure out if the Day of Wrath and the Day of the Lord and the rapture all happen on the same day. Clarify "in the days" from "in that day", etc etc. and yes, I don't want to hijack this thread either, so I will start a new thread. Not sure where so I will put it in "Apologetics.." If that is not the right place, Gary, or mike, would you mind putting it in the right category? Thank you in advance. I'll start with what I have and add some to it. I would suggest that anyone just copy the verses instead of quoting so that each post doesn't become a mile high. Then place the verses you want where you think they should go and I guess maybe at the bottom show how you got there? or something. I'm playing this by ear. If anyone has a better way to do it, please speak up. Put the thread where you think is best. If it needs to move, we'll do it. We can edit posts to condense some ideas if needed. Do it!  |
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Post by disciple4life on Apr 11, 2020 9:09:31 GMT -6
stormyknight, mike, rt, fitz, kjs, venge, sog, barbiosheepgirl, Beloved, @wishingfor, boraddict, others. My apologies to rt. so we don't sidetrack this great thread, one of the admins can move this - I don't know what the new title is, or what category it's under. IMHO, I think that the key for the timeline really all centers around one concept/ mystery, and that issue, solves multiple other questions. For me, I'm 95% sure, - there's more texts that bear this out, than texts on the trinity, but I'm not ready to put it in the same category just yet. ;-) In the Open Bible, =it's not a version, but rather a comprehensive, in-depth study Bible with lots of notes, maps, illustrations and these features are extra tools in the KJV and New American Standard Version. It says that the key theme to all of II Thesallonians is "Understanding the Day of the Lord" and it gives the indepth historical background. The Key verse is II Thes 3:4-5. "Let no one deceive you,, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the mand of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction." It being the Day of the Lord. When we look at the two terms, there is a very clear pattern that jumps out. Paul does not use these terms interchangeably. Why use two different terms in different books to different audiences, some mostly Jewish and some mixed Jewish and Gentile believers, like at Corinth, like breakfast and supper, if the two terms were indentical in meaning?? But if the two are different events, with totally different descriptions, and we see a clear pattern that supports this, then it makes sense that Breakfast and supper are not the same, Day of Christ and Day of the Lord. Day of the Lord is always connected with judgement. Day of Christ is not. Paul also links the Day of the Lord with Christ's second coming, not the rapture. Notice that in II Thes 2, vs 1, Paul is explaining two events. ***In the original manuscripts, there where no chapter and verse divisions. These were added centuries later. The chapter heading is the Events preceding the Day of the Lord. Notice in verse 8, again, we see the judgement of God, directly linked with his second coming. For this reason, I submit that the Day of the Lord, 1 Thes 2:8 and 1 Thes 2:3 go on the timeline at the second coming, when Christ descends WITH his bride and his feet touch down on the Mt of Olives. 8. "And then, that lawless one will be revealed whem the Lord will slay with the breath of his mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of his coming." I would put this at the end of Daniel's 70th week, - and in my opinion this fits perfectly, with Day of Atonement, when the door of heaven is closed - The sentence is delivered, and judgment is brought by God. Disciple4life
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Post by venge on Apr 13, 2020 5:31:05 GMT -6
stormyknight , mike , rt , fitz , kjs , venge , sog , barbiosheepgirl , Beloved , @wishingfor, boraddict , others. My apologies to rt. so we don't sidetrack this great thread, one of the admins can move this - I don't know what the new title is, or what category it's under. IMHO, I think that the key for the timeline really all centers around one concept/ mystery, and that issue, solves multiple other questions. For me, I'm 95% sure, - there's more texts that bear this out, than texts on the trinity, but I'm not ready to put it in the same category just yet. ;-) In the Open Bible, =it's not a version, but rather a comprehensive, in-depth study Bible with lots of notes, maps, illustrations and these features are extra tools in the KJV and New American Standard Version. It says that the key theme to all of II Thesallonians is "Understanding the Day of the Lord" and it gives the indepth historical background. The Key verse is II Thes 3:4-5. "Let no one deceive you,, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the mand of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction." It being the Day of the Lord. When we look at the two terms, there is a very clear pattern that jumps out. Paul does not use these terms interchangeably. Why use two different terms in different books to different audiences, some mostly Jewish and some mixed Jewish and Gentile believers, like at Corinth, like breakfast and supper, if the two terms were indentical in meaning?? But if the two are different events, with totally different descriptions, and we see a clear pattern that supports this, then it makes sense that Breakfast and supper are not the same, Day of Christ and Day of the Lord. Day of the Lord is always connected with judgement. Day of Christ is not. Paul also links the Day of the Lord with Christ's second coming, not the rapture. Notice that in II Thes 2, vs 1, Paul is explaining two events. ***In the original manuscripts, there where no chapter and verse divisions. These were added centuries later. The chapter heading is the Events preceding the Day of the Lord. Notice in verse 8, again, we see the judgement of God, directly linked with his second coming. For this reason, I submit that the Day of the Lord, 1 Thes 2:8 and 1 Thes 2:3 go on the timeline at the second coming, when Christ descends WITH his bride and his feet touch down on the Mt of Olives. 8. "And then, that lawless one will be revealed whem the Lord will slay with the breath of his mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of his coming." I would put this at the end of Daniel's 70th week, - and in my opinion this fits perfectly, with Day of Atonement, when the door of heaven is closed - The sentence is delivered, and judgment is brought by God. Disciple4life If the Day of the Lord is the 2nd Advent, why did Paul in 2 Thess 2 say its when he comes and we are gathered to him? Look at the preceding verses of Ch. 1 as you said there are no chapter breaks.. When do we rest/tabernacle with God? When the Lord is revealed from heaven With who? Angels Right before what event? Vengeance on them who know not God with everlasting destruction. The converted Jews wouldnt be subject to everlasting destruction would they? So this event must be the wrath of God. These words precede what Paul said later. If Paul was talking about when we are tabernacled with Christ, it matches what is said in Ch. 2 verse 1. He continues his thought and that this event happens with Christ coming with angels to tabernacle his saints before the wrath and perfectly matches Matthew 24 When Paul referred to the Thessalonians as "you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed", the only way they can receive rest with Christ coming in flaming fire with his mighty angels is the rest received at the resurrection of the dead because Paul and the Thessalonians are all dead and Christ hasnt come yet. Since the resurrection of the dead takes place before the rapture of the living, the 2 events happen when Christ is revealed in heaven with his mighty angels about to give wrath on the earth. Wouldnt that place the words of Paul from 2 Thess 1 and 2 immediately after the tribulation of Matthew 24 just as scripture says? EDIT: Would love a reply from stormyknight, disciple4life, mike on this. |
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Post by disciple4life on Apr 15, 2020 17:16:11 GMT -6
stormyknight ,mike ,disciple4life ,venge ,
venge , I will try to explain it as briefly and thoroughly as I can. I don't want to argue, but it might make sense to some who are trying to sort it out.
Venge said "If the Day of the Lord is the 2nd Advent, why did Paul in 2 Thess 2 say its when he comes and we are gathered to him? Look at the preceding verses of Ch. 1 as you said there are no chapter breaks."
There is a lot of confusion regarding the Rapture and 2nd coming, and many people, I think most actually talk about "Christ's second coming, or the second coming, when they really are referring to the rapture. This is why I use Second Advent, and by this I mean as opposed to Christ's First Advent, and we don't just mean his birth exclusively. But his birth, life, ministry, death, burial and resurrection - the whole 33 years.
So when I use Second Advent, I mean the rapture, all the events of the tribulation, Second coming - when his feet touch the Mt of Olives, and the 1000 yr Millennium. So I would say for clarity, in your question "If the Day of the Lord is the 2nd coming, why did Paul in 2 Thes 2 say it's when he comes and we are gathered unto him?" My short answer is this.
1. I think it's quite simply that in the passage, Paul is listing two separate and distinctly different events
2 Thessalonians 2 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Man of Lawlessness 1. "Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ - (Second Coming) and our gathering together to Him,- (rapture) 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed. . ." why??
because the Purpose of the entire letter is to explain the events of Christ's Second Advent - the resurrection of the dead, the rapture - being caught up quickly of those Christians who are alive, Anti-Christ revealed, Many departing from the Faith, and the second coming because the people in this church thought the events had already happened.
I did a study of all passages in the NT where the phrase Day of Christ, or Day of Jesus Christ or Day of Our Lord Jesus Christ is used. It is found 4 times - 1 Corinthians 1:8 Phil 1:6 Phil 1:10 and Phil 2:16
In all of these passages, - the entire chapter - there is no mention whatsoever of judgment or wrath, nor is the sun or moon being darkened mentioned, nor are there any "terrible" adjectives used - because it's a Wedding !
It's also interesting that only the apostle Paul uses this term- and it's only directed to Christians. 
This fits perfectly with Feast of Trumpets being the wedding of the Messiah, and the coronation of the King. At Feast of Trumpets - the Door of heaven is opened. Revelation 4 It's a celebration. Revelation 4:1 - ties these together and we see the Door of heaven open, Come up Here, and the Trumpet of God.
The Day of the Lord is explicitly linked with the sun being dark or black.
And Lastly - the Day of the Lord passages stand in stark contrast, to the descriptions of the Day of Christ. The Day of the Lord is always linked with wrath, judgment, and/or Sun being darkened/ black and terrible adjectives to describe it. This also fits perfectly with Day of Atonement, when the Door of Heaven is Shut and the Judgment is made, punishment.
In the passages here, we can see that the Day of the Lord is for Sinners- the proud, the haughty, those who rejected God. This is not the Bride of Christ - the church.
Isaiah 2:12-17
“For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low: 13. And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan, 14. 17. And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.” Now those things will happen during the day of the Lord. Now staying in Isaiah let’s come on over to chapter 13, and drop in at verse 9, and as we go just constantly beware of what it says, it’s so plain.
Isaiah 13:9-11a
“Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. 10. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. 11. And I will punish the world for their evil,”
Often it helps to see it and read it explained better by another person - This is one of the best articles I've seen on this topic and for me, this contrast is night and day different, and to me - it's totally clear beyond a shadow of a doubt, by grammar, and by context and all the descriptions used in the passages, and the different audiences - that The day of Christ, and The Day of the Lord are distinctly different , separate events - as different as Christmas and 4th of July. I don't pretend that I can change anyone's mind - but I hope people will look at the passages and the descriptions and the audiences for themselves and then decide.
I also would love to hear/ read RT's take, Mike's, Stormy, Sog, Natalie, Fitz, and Boraddict' and others' take as well. www.battleinchrist.com/understanding_end_time_events.htm
Cheers, my beloved fellow watchmen.
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Post by venge on Apr 16, 2020 4:29:17 GMT -6
disciple4life , And what's your response to the question I posed below: And how 2 Thessalonians Ch. 1 and 2 are both linked to Matthew 24 with both showing angels coming when he comes to gather us (rapture) at his coming. In reply to your previous post, you said: When I use the 2nd Advent, I believe it to mean Christ's 1 time second coming. Not his coming and gathering believers and leaving, then 7 years later a 3rd advent. A 2nd coming (advent) would be his departure from heaven and entrance to earth. There is no need to touch the dirt. Wouldn't his departure from heaven to another place signify he left his heavenly abode to "come" here to gather us? And the whole process of "coming" here is his 2nd Coming? Otherwise, as I said previously...he would come a third time by leaving heaven a third time. If we allow the word of God to be in heaven with us for 7 years, and that counts towards another coming, though he's not here on earth...wouldn't that logic apply to when the word was with God before all this began and it was not called his 1st Advent then, though he appeared many times on the earth to Moses, Joshua and Abraham. By this logic, you couldn't place a coming to gather us to return to heaven as part of any Advent. And if that's the case, his return dictates he should remain to finish his plan. We are safe once with him and have no need to go elsewhere even when wrath happens because we are immortal at that time w/him. If Christ came, the 2nd Advent, and gathered us to him (wedding) while remaining here to put wrath on them that destroy the earth (because we go where he goes) - and following that wrath is his reign (1k years)...there is no confusion of what a 2nd Advent is. When the Lord touches down on Mt Olives..its passed the point you said he gathers us. Then we touch down with him because we are always with him at that point right?
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Post by stormyknight on Apr 16, 2020 8:32:22 GMT -6
I'm thinking out loud here... We let scripture interpret scripture, right? Where could we find the interpretation for the word apostasia in scripture? The closest, so far, that I've found is in Daniel 8:25,
"Through his craft and by his hand, he will cause deceit to prosper, and in his own mind he will make himself great. In a time of peace he will destroy many, and he will even stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be broken off, but not by human hands."
The word for 'destroy' is yaš·ḥîṯ, which means 'perhaps to go to ruin', destroy, corrupt, harm, jeopardize. I'm thinking by interpreting it as corrupt, it fits with 2 Thess. 2:3, in that the AC will corrupt many and cause them to fall away or abandon what they once believed. Which, by the way, is exactly what Jesus and the Apostles all warned against, repeatedly!! "Let no one deceive you."
edit: also, in so doing, the AC would be revealed, at least to us, by this action.
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Post by mike on Apr 16, 2020 8:36:28 GMT -6
disciple4life said: Me either and I'm not seeing any of that venge said: Me too - which has always caused me to have confusion with Jesus coming back half way, in the sky catching up the church then coming back later. I have tossed this in my head, here on the boards, etc. for several years and have concluded that we will not know until it happens. I love the productive discussions we all have, so I'm not discouraging that in the least. The more we discuss our Lord the more encouraged I am by it AND that His return is near regardless of how you we view the rapture event. When I think on these things I hear barbiosheepgirl saying to me "Rest in Him" [Side Bar for BSG - Psalm 37 progression of Trust in the Lord v3, Delight in the Lord v4, Commit thy Ways to the Lord v5 & Rest in the Lord v7 is how I understand to approach each challenge of life] - SO I rest in the fact that Jesus is coming and I believe quite soon. I think I'll move this content to another thread. Either the one I created the other about Gods wrath physical/spiritual or I think D4L and/or Natalie had a thread on the Day of the Lord somewhere which we could combine this into. I have a piece of the puzzle from Rev which has me leaning more towards Venges view (not like you own the view  ) that I can interject in the correct thread.
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Post by stormyknight on Apr 16, 2020 9:11:22 GMT -6
Me too - which has always caused me to have confusion with Jesus coming back half way, in the sky catching up the church then coming back later. I have tossed this in my head, here on the boards, etc. for several years and have concluded that we will not know until it happens. I love the productive discussions we all have, so I'm not discouraging that in the least. The more we discuss our Lord the more encouraged I am by it AND that His return is near regardless of how you we view the rapture event. The more I look at this, the more I'm convinced that it's going to be fast moving simultaneous event. Meaning, Jesus will not be coming down to get us then going back to Heaven, then coming back for the "Second Coming" event.
One thing to remember, "For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.” Matt. 18:20. Jesus, in that sense, is already here, dwelling in us in Spirit. It's just a matter of the world 'seeing' Him. I think one thing we need to get past in our minds is thinking that Jesus is in one place and moves to another, from the Throne of Heaven to Earth. He is already everywhere, omnipresent. It's just the physical manifestation of Him for the benefit of the world to 'see' Him. So us 'meeting Him in the air' would be our transition from our physical bodies lifting up and changing to spirit bodies, not being affected by the physics of the natural world any longer and finally being able to see Jesus as He is in all of His Glory. Would the world see this? I don't know, but as I understand it, they will see the sign of the Son of Man. Whatever that may be. Lightning? Pillar of Glory? I don't know. As physical beings they couldn't actually see Jesus Himself in all His Glory because it would kill them, so they see the sign of... Does any of this make sense to anyone else? or am I suffering delusions?
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Post by stormyknight on Apr 16, 2020 9:21:46 GMT -6
Also, how this ties in to pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib, I don't know. I haven't tried to tie that part together yet.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Apr 16, 2020 13:18:36 GMT -6
stormyknight , mike , venge , my heart is singing Amen over these comments! Mike, let me know where you move this topic if it is off topic. There is this consideration which was the same situation in the first Advent: Economic, Social and Religious strife. I don't think there is anything man does that pisses of God. I don't see it that way. Man has been justified thru the blood of Christ. Yet the Flesh (and blood) has not won the battle yet in the earthly kingdom fight. I see it that the adversary has been cast out of the heavenly occupation he once had, because Jesus now reigns the Heaven (Rev 4/5) At His Appointed time, not because of man's doings, He will manifest, return in the clouds the same way and begin establishing His rule on Earth as it is in Heaven. The reason for the birth pangs is because Satan knows he has only a short time before being bound. PLUS, knowing the weakness of the flesh, he works accordingly, and is successful in his deceptions because man would rather his deeds be in darkness.. Jesus saying, 19“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20“For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”
18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
and Paul confirms this
for the word of the cross to those indeed perishing is foolishness, and to us -- those being saved -- it is the power of God, at some point mortality will put on immortality and this will reveal many things to those changed in a twinkling. I think this is the essence of things taught in the letters to Corinth and Thess..
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Post by bernie on Sept 20, 2020 12:08:00 GMT -6
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Post by rockito on Sept 20, 2020 16:07:07 GMT -6
Yeah Bernie, it’s vile.. but not surprising anymore unfortunately.
The holy spirit in-dwelt believers still here, are doing our job to be a firewall and push back. And proclaim the truth. As evidenced by the brothers and sisters in Iceland.
Ironically; I was re-reading Revelation last night (prior to your post). The first few chapters on John’s vision of Christ and His message to the churches. And I was struck by his description of the glory of Jesus! Even though I have been through these verses many times.. He describes the PERFECTION of the risen Christ in detail, as God and man.
As well as the sound of His voice: which sounded like a ROARING WATERFALL. Nothing effeminate about that.
It’s just so exciting that it will be very soon, when we will see him too!
🙂🙂🙂
Maranatha!!
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Post by bernie on Sept 20, 2020 20:12:24 GMT -6
Yeah Bernie, it’s vile.. but not surprising anymore unfortunately. The holy spirit in-dwelt believers still here, are doing our job to be a firewall and push back. And proclaim the truth. As evidenced by the brothers and sisters in Iceland. Ironically; I was re-reading Revelation last night (prior to your post). The first few chapters on John’s vision of Christ and His message to the churches. And I was struck by his description of the glory of Jesus! Even though I have been through these verses many times.. He describes the PERFECTION of the risen Christ in detail, as God and man. As well as the sound of His voice: which sounded like a ROARING WATERFALL. Nothing effeminate about that. It’s just so exciting that it will be very soon, when we will see him too! 🙂🙂🙂 Maranatha!! I CAN"T WAIT! 😀 |
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Post by disciple4life on Sept 27, 2020 16:14:42 GMT -6
stormyknight , mike , disciple4life , venge , barbiosheepgirl , bernie , rockito , Yes, bernie , I agree my dear brother - but I also think it's both. Both the departure of the church- harpazo, and the departure from the faith of the apostate church. Hello Brothers and sisters. Such a powerful message of both the need of repentance, but also humility - Pastor Toney repenting for posting negative comments on FB about the National Day of Prayer at DC, with Franklin Graham, and Jonathan Cahn, and Anne Graham Lotz, and Correta Scott King and other Evangelical leaders. He was so convicted, he said the Holy Spirit told him to remove his FB posts. Pastor Toney -"He (Jonathan Cahn )made it very clear- He is calling for the repentance of sin. He is calling us back to Acts 2:38. "Repent and be baptized - every one of you, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission/Forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." He also talks about the passage that Jonathan Cahn quoted from memory from Revelation 2:4-5. "You have left your first love . Remember from where you have fallen and repent -or else I will come to you quickly, and I will remove your candlestick out of its place." Removing God's candlestick was a picture of God's presence with his people. "We must understand - That if a candlestick is removed -It is literally Jesus taking the church out of his hand" [God removing his presence from his people.] Of course there are those who spin this as a loss of reward, but we should also remember the clear words of Christ himself. Every branch in me, that does not bear fruit is cut off from the vine, and cast into the fire and burned. It was the same exact context to the lukewarm- apostate church that Jesus Christ himself said that he would vomit them out of his mouth. Sure doesn't sound like a rapture to me?? [Or loss of rewards ] "We saw more than 50,000 people at the national mall in DC, and they all understood crystal clear- that Jonathan Cahn was calling for repentance from sin." Wow. !! Amazing that this video is today - on Day of Atonement. When the Judgment of God is set. May your name be found in the book of life. Marinatha, Disciple4Life
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) that I can interject in the correct thread.
