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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2020 22:20:28 GMT -6
Also I have seen compelling sermons on the Apostasy meaning the removal of the Church, links provided on this very site. I have homework to do. Although I suspect, in the big scheme of things, the reference is to the Church, not all churches. So a church based on false teaching may not even be counted as falling away, if it ever counted at all.
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Post by mike on Jan 30, 2020 6:35:20 GMT -6
Yeah, I'm a Calvinist. I was raised Catholic, came to faith in AOG, and became reformed 20 years ago. Hi boymaker - As a Calvinist have you considered scriptures like the following? Have you researched the position or just find yourself in that view? I am curious and not trying to convince you otherwise but the view has contradictions with other areas of scripture. 1Tim 2:6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. (gave for all then why only those 'pre-destined'?) John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. (whosoever implies anyone without distinction or selection) 1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
Again not knowing you at this time, I am curious. There are many other scriptures that contradict pre-destination and clarify what is meant in Romans 8. I also appreciate Mike Winger and his approach to the scriptures. Below is his view on Calvinism |
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Jan 30, 2020 8:01:09 GMT -6
Natalie , You are correct. The church is excepting people and their sins without requiring repentance. It has become a new acceptance within some churches. This is, in part, the "falling away". We all have sinned, need to repent to Jesus Christ, and change our ways. Otherwise, we are not born again.
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Post by disciple4life on Jan 30, 2020 8:08:18 GMT -6
I think that another issue is that people often use and adopt certain terms out of ignorance not fully understanding the connotations so i think it's appropriate to make a clarifying statement or question.
So Tim asks if you think the "occupied territories" should be given to the back to the Shia Iraqis
There are 4 red herrings in here , but 1 could be ignorance and 1 could be simply misspeaking.
1- "occupied territories" is Propaganda to mean that the Jews are oppressors and occupying land that is not theirs.
2.given back- implies the land doesn't belong to them and
3. The Iraqis are not the ones living in Israel or the ones wanting a state.
4. 95& of the people there are Jordanian Arabs who are Sunni, and speak Jordanian, and have Jordanian passports. Its very easy to confuse Sunni and Shia.
To bring it back to the thread topic, we should try to be precise.
Anytime people use 'garden path' loaded phrases, laden with an agenda like "occupied territories" and "lose your salvation" we need to have the wisdom to stop and use terms that are scriptural and or accurate.
"Lose" carries a lot of undertones in English. Basically no one, -- from the Strict Arminian to the Provisionalists/ Freewill Baptist to the 5 point Calvinist-- would agree that we can misplace their house or misplace their marriage.
Using the argument that in some cases the word 'apostasia' can be translated as "caught up" is
like arguing over the semantic differences between Dinner vs Supper.
Rather, what does scripture mean when Paul said "You have fallen from grace"?
Or what does it mean when Christ says in Revelation to the church that he would "Vomit them out of his mouth?" And what does it mean when Christ said of the prodigal that he was "dead and lost" in his sin.
It's also good for us to think and ask ourselves "am I using pat phrases or ambiguous language" that has built in connotations?
Maranatha
I think we are The Terminal Generation.
I believe with all my being that we will see the Rapture in this decade.
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Post by mike on Jan 30, 2020 8:11:13 GMT -6
Natalie , You are correct. The church is excepting people and their sins without requiring repentance. It has become a new acceptance within some churches. This is, in part, the "falling away". We all have sinned, need to repent, and change our ways. Otherwise, we are not born again. We should accept all people, just the way they are, just like Jesus did. He rejected the false teachers. The REAL problem (IMO) is telling them that their sin is ok and God is ok with it continuing. This has always been the fine line to walk. People start to think in terms of performance based faith ( I have to stop smoking-my body is a temple or I have to stop this or that). New believers who have 'repented' (change your mind about the gospel) should be discipled afterwards otherwise they may again 'repent' and cling to belief in the world system or themselves for salvation. |
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Jan 30, 2020 8:51:20 GMT -6
Natalie , You are correct. The church is excepting people and their sins without requiring repentance. It has become a new acceptance within some churches. This is, in part, the "falling away". We all have sinned, need to repent, and change our ways. Otherwise, we are not born again. We should accept all people, just the way they are, just like Jesus did. He rejected the false teachers. Quite the opposite. Jesus spoke with the sinners in order to change their ways, not accept them the way they are. The Rabbi's didn't like this and took it as He was just like the sinners and tried to use it against Him (Jesus). Jesus replied and said He came for the sinners and not the "righteous" or those who claimed to be anyway. There are many verses about keeping your distance from the sinner who doesn't change their ways. Here's just a few...
Matthew 7:23 - And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Luke 15:7 - I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
2 Corinthians 6:14 - Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
1 Corinthians 5:11 - But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
Proverbs 13:20 - He that walketh with wise men shall be wise: but a companion of fools shall be destroyed.
2 Thessalonians 3:6 - Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.
We must remember Act 3:19 and many other verses, "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;"
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2020 8:57:22 GMT -6
mike,I follow the teachings of MacArthur, Sproul, Lawson, Washer, Spurgeon, my own interpretation of the Bible and my pastor. I do not see what you see and I have been studying 20 years.
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Post by Natalie on Jan 30, 2020 8:59:26 GMT -6
boymaker, why would a just God condemn men for a choice they can't make?
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Post by mike on Jan 30, 2020 9:07:35 GMT -6
mike ,I follow the teachings of MacArthur, Sproul, Lawson, Washer, Spurgeon, my own interpretation of the Bible and my pastor. I do not see what you see and I have been studying 20 years. Thank you! I wasn't questioning your devotion, just asked how you view the few verses (there are others) quoted in light of your predestination position. Again, not looking to change your mind on it, asking how you recnocile what appears contradictory to me |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2020 9:07:38 GMT -6
I'm not going to churn these waters. If you have rejected this belief, then my explanations mean nothing. I would simply be rehashing old arguments for which you already have responses.
I would never be able to present my belief as articulately as the men I mentioned, and yet you have likely already rejected their positions. So it's moot.
I believe that all who truly desire God will find Him. That they were elect before the foundations of the world may never be known to them and that's okay.
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Post by mike on Jan 30, 2020 9:30:41 GMT -6
I'm not going to churn these waters. If you have rejected this belief, then my explanations mean nothing. I would simply be rehashing old arguments for which you already have responses. I would never be able to present my belief as articulately as the men I mentioned, and yet you have likely already rejected their positions. So it's moot. I believe that all who truly desire God will find Him. That they were elect before the foundations of the world may never be known to them and that's okay. ok, thank you |
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Post by mike on Jan 30, 2020 10:01:56 GMT -6
We should accept all people, just the way they are, just like Jesus did. He rejected the false teachers. Quite the opposite. Jesus spoke with the sinners in order to change their ways, not accept them the way they are. The Rabbi's didn't like this and took it as He was just like the sinners and tried to use it against Him (Jesus). Jesus replied and said He came for the sinners and not the "righteous" or those who claimed to be anyway. There are many verses about keeping your distance from the sinner who doesn't change their ways. Here's just a few...
Matthew 7:23 - And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Luke 15:7 - I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
2 Corinthians 6:14 - Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
1 Corinthians 5:11 - But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
Proverbs 13:20 - He that walketh with wise men shall be wise: but a companion of fools shall be destroyed.
2 Thessalonians 3:6 - Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.
We must remember Act 3:19 and many other verses, "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;" I did not do a good job stating my thoughts. This happens quite a bit with written media. I am in agreement with you here. I see that Jesus accepted them, rather saw where they were at and said "dont stay in that spot" (in their sin) and turn away from (the sin) and change your mind/ways |
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Jan 30, 2020 10:16:23 GMT -6
mike, No worries. It happens to me too. It's not always easy to explain things. And just so everyone knows. I'm never angry or trying to be a jerk about things when posting. I know that can be hard to see through just text alone. I would just like to point that out. We all believe in Jesus Christ, I hope, but sometimes we have different views.
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Post by disciple4life on Jan 30, 2020 17:05:06 GMT -6
Hello friends,
Wow, great thread and really good points - food for thought.
Im totally with you both, Mike and Joe in the struggle of trying to make a point but it's so much harder in written format.
Two quotes or points that i think really highlight what you both are saying-
"GOD loves us just the way we are, but He loves us too much to let us stay that way."
The other one is that the church [insert denomination here] says change your Behavior first,
Then change your Belief,
Then you can Belong.
Christ's example was the opposite.😉🙏
Belong, then you change your Belief, and this Belief,[Repentance and confession of sin]in turn changes our Behavior.
Change of Behavior comes as a result of change of the heart.
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Post by rt on Feb 12, 2020 9:04:26 GMT -6
boymaker , Welcome to the forum. So in your subject line you ask if the "falling away" is abandonment (of the faith I presume) or the rapture? I also presume you are referencing this passage: There are other threads that address the controversy of the use of the word "apostasy", and whether it means departure from the faith, or a literal physical departure. You have to read further for clues to which definition fits. There is a restraining force that is taken out of the way, so that the lawless one can be revealed. This force as we see restrains more than just the lawless one, it also restrains lawlessness as described in verse 7. We know from our own experience on earth that the thing that restrains lawlessness, is the law, or lawfulness. It is the same spiritually speaking. So the question is who is this "he" who is taken out of the way? Consider the following: The work of the law is written on the hearts of believers, but how? Via the work of the Holy Spirit who is given and resides within those who believe in Christ, whose word is the law. The passage in John 16:7-14, talks about the Holy Spirit convicting the world concerning sin, righteousness and judgment, and also how He guides those who believe in all truth, disclosing to them the truth of Christ.; The Holy Spirit convicts the world of these things through believers whom He indwells. Ultimately it is the truth that restrains lawlessness, and that truth is in Christ, which is disclosed to us via His Spirit. Therefore, we believers are what restrains lawlessness today. If I am correct, and believers AKA the body of Christ, or the Church acts as the restrainer, and they are taken out of the way, so that the lawless one AKA the Antichrist can be revealed, then it stands to reason that apostasy, as in departure from the faith, will also ensue. Take the lawful citizens out of the picture and lawlessness will increase exponentially. You as a Calvinist , would agree that those who are true believers cannot defect from the faith, they are saved and will not fall away. Apostasy therefore, can only affect those who are not truly followers of Christ. Those who know the truth and follow it, who are doers of the word, who have the law written on their hearts will recognize what is false and shine light on it for what it is. This deception of wickedness (lawlessness) is for those who did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved, this is the ultimate apostasy. Those who believe the truth will not be deceived, because they are destined for salvation, through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth! And what does it mean to "gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ"? Paul tells the Thessalonians that they will gain the Glory of Christ, that they need not be shaken or disturbed by the false message they had received that the Day of the Lord had come, because they are destined for salvation, that they might be transformed into the glory of Christ, they will put on immortality:
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