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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Nov 7, 2019 19:26:00 GMT -6
venge, amen. verbatim to what I have been attempting to say, however it seems to not land as well as your posts do...
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Post by venge on Nov 8, 2019 18:53:36 GMT -6
Hello y’all! So, mike, don’t overlook the fact that, according to 1 Thessalonians 4:17, “Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them (the resurrected saints) in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord.” (HCSB, my annotation added). So, IF AND ONLY IF WE STAY ON EARTH, the amount of resurrected saints will be enormous on the earth. This includes both the resurrected dead as well as those transformed. So, even though the resurrection of the believing dead is an awesome thing, let’s not forget that the living saints will be transformed on the earth. My worries are if my dad, who is not really religious, will recognize me in my resurrected body, and if any unbelieving friends will recognize me. So, question for you mike and venge, who do you think the heavenly armies on white horses wearing white linen are, according to Revelation 19:14, IF we stay on the earth during the Tribulation or Great Tribulation? My understanding before I started to think that the Church will stay on earth with Christ post-Rapture was that these are raptured believers. So, who are these armies then? Are they angels or spirits? What are they? I had not studied it specifically as I do other texts. I’ve thought them to be his followers, Christians in the true sense. Christ comes with ten thousands of his saints right? Wherever Christ is, we are with him right? I believe they are us. But I don’t take it literally. I don’t see us riding horses in the air lol The image explains we follow Christ. The horses describe battle and of course the clothing is his bride. He is reigning at this time, so describes the “when” this happens. Some believe this is us after 7 years of hiding in heaven. I believe it’s us immediately following our rapture. In either scenario, Christ is shown with his people in victory. |
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Post by venge on Nov 8, 2019 19:01:25 GMT -6
venge, amen. verbatim to what I have been attempting to say, however it seems to not land as well as your posts do... its like locusts with women’s hair. Fanciful and out of touch with normalcy. If one followed hermeneutics, something science fictional would not apply especially if scripture explained otherwise; which it does with the locusts as well! This is why I’m amazed we’d believe something out of the SYFY channel or Supernatural tv series to exists when scripture clearly explains: Lions teeth, women’s hair, tails of scorpions, poison etc... Not to mention locusts in the Bible are said to have no king over them! Yet the one in Revelation does. Riddle me that Batman 😊 No need, I was being sarcastic. To those that study, I dare you. Look at the locusts in Revelation and dissect each sentence and search the Bible for each part. Use google. See what you find.  |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Nov 8, 2019 21:24:18 GMT -6
I would say that too about the blood refences in Revelation. What does Blood mean? See 1john 5... thru verse 12, spiritually meditate and prayerfully see what it is saying there! It is rather spectacular to the Book of R!
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Post by mike on Nov 8, 2019 21:52:23 GMT -6
I would say that too about the blood refences in Revelation. What does Blood mean? See 1john 5... thru verse 12, spiritually meditate and prayerfully see what it is saying there! It is rather spectacular to the Book of R! I'm not certain I see what you are referring to, but I can see how I could read this in two different ways. |
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Post by venge on Nov 9, 2019 8:16:57 GMT -6
I would say that too about the blood refences in Revelation. What does Blood mean? See 1john 5... thru verse 12, spiritually meditate and prayerfully see what it is saying there! It is rather spectacular to the Book of R! can you explain it more? |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Nov 9, 2019 10:56:18 GMT -6
First of all, I have to ask, what set of glasses are each of wearing when we study Revelation? Is a set of glasses that views the destruction of everything? Or, is it a set of glasses that sees a great conversion to faith, with a flood of testimony to the Truth taking over the world? The Book of the Revealing of the Word/Truth is yes, a struggle, but the result is mass conversion, not destruction.
17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
God did not send His Son to condemn us. The word for condemn also includes to try, punish.. verse 19 is the key. men loving darkness because there deeds were/are evil, and don't like coming to the light. It is the lack of belief(Faith) that that is the judgement (not bombarding mankind with meteors, or poisoning the rivers, or things of this nature.) John is seeing the heavenly perspective of the world coming to Faith thru the Messengers (aka trumpets). The Message of the (sword) of Truth pierces evil/convicts a soul. For some it happens rather easy, for others they may have to hit rock bottom before recognizing (repenting) of who is Lord. Not themselves, but the Almighty. The destruction of the man of lawlessness within a heart of a person is thru the revealing of the Truth of the Word of God. This is the set of glasses I wear when reading Revelation. The messengers are the trumpets. The testimony of them is what causes a cascade of testimony on earth (spirit/water/blood). And we know that the Spirit came down upon the Followers as a flame of fire.
John in his epistle states what are the testifyers on earth:
4For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
5Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? 6This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
and we see the power of the Holy Spirit, this account of Acts
2And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
3And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them.
4And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.
the trumpets are for the refining of the House of the Lord, bring all the gazillion denominations into one mind. The messengers are the First Fruits unto the Lord
so the first Messenger shouts cause this to happen:
7The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
I do not attribute the trees and grass to be literal physical. It has to do with peoples, religious perhaps, as this are elements of earth (relgiously slanted). The burning up to me is the same scene as in Acts 2
8And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; 9And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
the sea being another group of people become witnesses. They become "blood" (a witness), those dying , gain! They die to their fleshly ways. the ships being their form of idol/wealth etc, they turn from these things that carry their cargo (wealth)
10And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; 11And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
knowing that wormwood is tough to define, it seems to equate to grevious (ness) harshness, tough, trying. I see this as a tribulation among many who are realizing the things they once believed are not as they are. It is crossroads for these peoples. The Truth overcoming centuries of their traditions, is bitter to them. Yet the result is death which actually is Life because it is the Lord sending this things down upon them. they turn from their ways (die).
12And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
the sun, moon, part of stars, these are to me the "enlightened" folks, who have knowledge, but the reason they are darkened is because their deeds are exposed.
If you think I am off my rocker, look at Hebrews and what it says here:
For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29For our God is a consuming fire.
as we get to the remaining trumpet blasts, this is what further refines the earth (religious dwellers). It is what causes the mysterious bondage of our flesh to be shaken, such to prepare the earth for the Wheat Harvest. Yes, I am saying the elements shown by the messengers actually cause the peoples, tongues tribes and nations to repent. when things are ready, This leads to the Angel with the sickle to Harvest. This falls in line with the parable of the wheat and tares, where the stumbling blocks are removed (vie the Trumpets). and the result is pure fruit of the field obvious and ready for reeping.
The trumpets? This is the work of the undefiled faithful who were named, and who were purchased from the earth following the Lamb (spirit/water/blood) This rather "small" group compared to the multitude their witnessing will produce, this mass conversion/repentance. These are the First Fruits that testify to the earth (and part of the sea). It is a repeat pattern of the 12 apostles/commissioned to spread the Gospel. This time, the First Fruits are literally spiritually connected with Jesus, see Him go about His Call (trumpets) as Messengers, preaching from "midheaven." They are capable of transfiguration like Philip, and they can not be harmed as they have put on immortality.
and for d4L, the provoking to jealousy is that these First fruits expose those who are not circumcised of the heart. This will be perfected/manifested for those of the kingdom of Judah via the Winepress.
sources: Rev 7, 14, 17, 1 John 5, Hebrews 4-12:2, Ezekiel 44, Acts 1/2, the account of the last supper in the upper room with the chosen, parable of the mustard seed, the wheat and tares, and Zechariah, and Jeremiah, and Isaiah...
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Post by mike on Nov 9, 2019 12:43:43 GMT -6
Lots to digest there BSG
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Nov 9, 2019 19:35:55 GMT -6
mike , and everyone, realize that I believe that each one of us speaks truths, and then sometimes we speak things of others that we say amen to, that are not wrong, but are not spiritually correct. This is why we are told by Peter to test ALL things. I say this so as to say, each one of us have things impressed upon our hearts via the Spirit, and yet are vulnerable to yield back to the fleshly desires of what is acceptable truth among men. We lean on the scholarly, because that is where our trust is via credentials. Why not? they have paid to get the knowledge and devoted life to learn, thru universities and other such seminaries. Learning from the learned. This should be respected and they should be "in the know." We should listen and respect and agree with such men. We lean on things that seem to line up for the glasses we wear, we lean on our life experience. There is nothing wrong with that. I have Faith that the Lord has us each in our place at the right time and the right reasons for HIS purpose, sometimes also not for our own satisfaction. We get deceived into that self-satisfaction of being correct. The format of a forum like this is that each of us come here wanting to say what is absolute Truth. We all have good intentions. Perhaps in 6 months, I will be convinced of another angle. Right now, this is where my vision has landed because of the dialog here, and so I share. Maybe someone says amen, and maybe most say, uh, Lord help her. And He Will and Is.
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Post by venge on Nov 11, 2019 5:57:15 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirlWormwood was hard for me; over 30+ years. Look at some of these verses: Jeremiah 8:14 Jeremiah 9:15 Jeremiah 23:15 Deuteronomy 29:18 Book of Job Naomi aka Mara in The book of Ruth Please look at each and the verses after it for context. When you do that, prepared to be blown away with this. Numbers 5:11-31 Think about Rev 8:10-11 in regards to Numbers 5. The bridegroom (Christ) could have the bride (the church) drink the wormwood. If she’s unfaithful, bitterness and calamity follow. If she’s faithful, nothing happens and they rejoice together. I came to this conclusion by myself 2 weeks back. I searched the internet to see if anyone else has. One website explained it so well. I’ll link it if interested. alastairadversaria.com/2013/02/09/the-cup-of-the-adulteress-understanding-the-jealousy-ritual-of-numbers-5/Worth a read. Hopefully you get the bitterness portion and understand it’s not literal poisoned water
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Post by yardstick on Jan 12, 2020 16:31:46 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirl Wormwood was hard for me; over 30+ years. Look at some of these verses: Jeremiah 8:14 Jeremiah 9:15 Jeremiah 23:15 Deuteronomy 29:18 Book of Job Naomi aka Mara in The book of Ruth Please look at each and the verses after it for context. When you do that, prepared to be blown away with this. Numbers 5:11-31 Think about Rev 8:10-11 in regards to Numbers 5. The bridegroom (Christ) could have the bride (the church) drink the wormwood. If she’s unfaithful, bitterness and calamity follow. If she’s faithful, nothing happens and they rejoice together. I came to this conclusion by myself 2 weeks back. I searched the internet to see if anyone else has. One website explained it so well. I’ll link it if interested. alastairadversaria.com/2013/02/09/the-cup-of-the-adulteress-understanding-the-jealousy-ritual-of-numbers-5/Worth a read. Hopefully you get the bitterness portion and understand it’s not literal poisoned water My primary question related to this (which is an interesting theory) is that in Jer 8,9 and Deut 29 (see v25), these passages explicitly say that God is upset because his people are not following the law anymore. Given our age of Grace in Christ, and the salvation he offers: Do you think God still demands that his people (Christians or Jews) comply with the Mosaic Law? Regarding Jer 23: Are there any passages in scripture related to the Tribulation that indicate there will be prophets of Samaria prophesying by Baal? Matthew 24 indicates plenty of false christs, and people pointing to them, but I cant find anything saying that there will be prophets of Baal in the Trib. The Num 5 (v27) passage makes a lot of figurative sense if applied to the people of Israel. Specifically those who will be on the earth during the Trib. However, I must reiterate my question: Given our age of Grace in Christ, and the salvation he offers: Do you think God still demands that his people (Christians or Jews) comply with the Mosaic Law? I can see how the Israeli perspective might see Num 5 in Jacob's Trouble... Wouldn't this be applicable only if it is Israel who is the Adulteress of Rev 14, 17 and 18? The water by analogy becomes the cup of wrath - from the grapes trampled in the winepress of wrath... |
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Post by venge on Jan 13, 2020 10:05:12 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirl Wormwood was hard for me; over 30+ years. Look at some of these verses: Jeremiah 8:14 Jeremiah 9:15 Jeremiah 23:15 Deuteronomy 29:18 Book of Job Naomi aka Mara in The book of Ruth Please look at each and the verses after it for context. When you do that, prepared to be blown away with this. Numbers 5:11-31 Think about Rev 8:10-11 in regards to Numbers 5. The bridegroom (Christ) could have the bride (the church) drink the wormwood. If she’s unfaithful, bitterness and calamity follow. If she’s faithful, nothing happens and they rejoice together. I came to this conclusion by myself 2 weeks back. I searched the internet to see if anyone else has. One website explained it so well. I’ll link it if interested. alastairadversaria.com/2013/02/09/the-cup-of-the-adulteress-understanding-the-jealousy-ritual-of-numbers-5/Worth a read. Hopefully you get the bitterness portion and understand it’s not literal poisoned water My primary question related to this (which is an interesting theory) is that in Jer 8,9 and Deut 29 (see v25), these passages explicitly say that God is upset because his people are not following the law anymore. Given our age of Grace in Christ, and the salvation he offers: Do you think God still demands that his people (Christians or Jews) comply with the Mosaic Law? Regarding Jer 23: Are there any passages in scripture related to the Tribulation that indicate there will be prophets of Samaria prophesying by Baal? Matthew 24 indicates plenty of false christs, and people pointing to them, but I cant find anything saying that there will be prophets of Baal in the Trib. The Num 5 (v27) passage makes a lot of figurative sense if applied to the people of Israel. Specifically those who will be on the earth during the Trib. However, I must reiterate my question: Given our age of Grace in Christ, and the salvation he offers: Do you think God still demands that his people (Christians or Jews) comply with the Mosaic Law? I can see how the Israeli perspective might see Num 5 in Jacob's Trouble... Wouldn't this be applicable only if it is Israel who is the Adulteress of Rev 14, 17 and 18? The water by analogy becomes the cup of wrath - from the grapes trampled in the winepress of wrath... I firmly believe that whatever I say will be tossed aside and disregarded by some. But, I know you are serious and that you study to grow - even pondering the thoughts of these ancient men and what they meant to say. With that, I will reply but will keep it short. Revelation 12:17, Revelation 14:12 and 1 John 2:3 all reference our following his commandments. Do I think that implies all the laws? No Do I think we should follow what Christ taught, the gospels and Paul? Yes. And he taught the 2 greatest of the 10 commandments fulfill the law. Love God with all your heart, soul etc and your neighbor as yourself. I believe this still applies as well as faith in Christ. For faith in Christ with no love for your neighbor is dead faith. How can one have faith in what he hasn’t seen and believe on the son of God who loved the world and preached love, peace, kindness etc and than not follow his teachings and hate his brother? As far as Israel is concerned, I’ve have said times before - we are part of Israel. The wild branch grafted in, also part of the promises as Paul has shown and of the seed of Abraham. I think the adulteress May be not just physical Israel or the Jewish people by blood, but possibly apostate believers that were married to Christ and forsook him for another (idol) thereby playing the harlot. It’s my opinion, that from a Pre TB perspective, it may be difficult to understand my response because the way some view their theory. Because in that theory, placement of the church, people you call “tribulation saints”, and Israel’s (the nation of Jews) punishment in the end conflict with any other idea. Pre TB blocks/prevents this because it’s focus is “we are not on earth”. If you take the understanding, “we are on earth”, the understanding to many of us is not blocked by that notion (we are gone) thereby partly explaining my rationale above. You are correct in the understanding that God finds his people not obeying. But more than that, what is the bitterness and the wormwood? Is the explanation in lamentations focused on a plant to cause death, or is it explained of ones soul. The hurt and pain, confusion and derision. Notice how sackcloth and dust is portrayed with it after calamity showing great mourning is involved. How is that applied to Revelation’s wormwood? Lastly, I may not reply back for days, weeks or months. But I will try. I no longer regularly post on this site anymore, but I do watch PMs. Hope I answered your question. -with Love |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2020 2:57:26 GMT -6
As there aren't references to the Church during the Tribulation, and our glorified bodies are indestructible and would survive it, there is no reason to believe we will stay here.
I also suspect the tradition of the bridegroom spiriting his bride to his father's house for the wedding and honeymoon influences my belief that we will leave and not go through the judgement
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Post by disciple4life on Jan 27, 2020 7:40:39 GMT -6
As there aren't references to the Church during the Tribulation, and our glorified bodies are indestructible and would survive it, there is no reason to believe we will stay here. I also suspect the tradition of the bridegroom spiriting his bride to his father's house for the wedding and honeymoon influences my belief that we will leave and not go through the judgement Hello boymaker Welcome to the forum !!
I myself am also a baker and lover of banana bread. Oh yeah. I'm your Scots-Irish-French-Jewish American brother from Tennessee.
You make two very good points regarding the rapture, and why you think that we leave.
I particularly think that the Hebrew wedding is a huge clue and there are multiple scriptures that support this line of thought.
The biggest is the passage of the ten bridesmaids - 5 wise and 5 foolish. The cool thing is that this is a wedding, and it's a rapture passage. The 5 who were wise, were the ones who were watching, and conversely, the 5 which Christ said were foolish, -- well, they were foolish because they didn't know the time, but should have.
It's also very interesting that in the Hebrew wedding, the bridegroom came with a shout. Feast of trumpets, or Yom Teruah, is also literally Day of Shouting. One of the themes for this Feast is the Wedding, even understood by Jews today, who have not yet accepted the Messiah.
Jews also believe that the great resurrection will happen on Feast of Trumpets, Day of Shouting. Jews also believe that the door of heaven is opened on Feast of Trumpets and then, closed again on Day of Atonement. This ten day period is a time of repentance and righting any wrongs from the previous year.
Interesting parallels that Paul said that Christ will come with a Shout. Cross reference this with the wedding passage. Hmmm. Rev chapter 4, when John sees a Door in Heaven open, and then the words "Come up Here". and then there is no mention of the church again until the end of Revelation. Hmmm.
THen, the bride would come for his groom, and take her away into the Chuppah, (brigechamber ) for 7 days, and then, after the 7 days, they would come out together from the shelter of the chuppah, and go to the feast ceremony.
I think it was Pastor Jack Hibbs, who has a great line, but I can't quote it verbatim. "The notion of Christians going through the tribulation is a lot like the groom saying to this bride, "I love you honey, and today I'm going to marry you. Then, I'm going to beat the tar out of you for seven years and then we'll go celebrate with all the guests at the reception. "
Then, of course, there is the very clear, most explicit rapture passage itself from I Thess 4:16-17 which uses the word Harpazo, which means to catch up quickly, snatch up by force, and we will be caught up with Christ into the clouds, where we will be with the Lord, and if the passage seems to make literal sense, seek no other sense, or it will be nonsense.
Cordially
Disciple4life
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