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Post by mike on Nov 5, 2019 12:53:28 GMT -6
Not challenging you here just trying to see things. How do you see the "Trib saints" in context of this verse?
Rev 7:14-15 These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
What about those who dont come out of the great tribulation? Why are they different than me, you or others before us? Also I suppose the 4 beasts are different but why do they never cease saying holy, holy, holy? Maybe they have ability to do that and other things at the same time, but scripture doesnt tell us that (specifically) that I can find
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Post by matthew2423 on Nov 5, 2019 13:15:03 GMT -6
Not challenging you here just trying to see things. How do you see the "Trib saints" in context of this verse? Rev 7:14-15 These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. What about those who dont come out of the great tribulation? Why are they different than me, you or others before us? Also I suppose the 4 beasts are different but why do they never cease saying holy, holy, holy? Maybe they have ability to do that and other things at the same time, but scripture doesnt tell us that (specifically) that I can find Mike, Luke 19:11-27 talks about our job in Heaven. Jesus gives information in this parable that we will help God run the universe. Now, as we all know, God doesn’t need help in running the universe, but God has appointed us to be kings and queens with God and co-monarchs with Christ. It says, “While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. He said: “A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas.‘Put this money to work,’ he said, ‘until I come back.’ “But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, ‘We don’t want this man to be our king.’ “He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it. “The first one came and said, ‘Sir, your mina has earned ten more.’ “ ‘Well done, my good servant!’ his master replied. ‘Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.’ “The second came and said, ‘Sir, your mina has earned five more.’ “His master answered, ‘You take charge of five cities.’ “Then another servant came and said, ‘Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.’ “His master replied, ‘I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? Why then didn’t you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?’ “Then he said to those standing by, ‘Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.’ “ ‘Sir,’ they said, ‘he already has ten!’ “He replied, ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what they have will be taken away. But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’ ” As we see in this passage, the king gives his servants cities to rule over after they have invested their minas. Instead of minas, we invest our gifts and talents into the Church, and once we get to Heaven, we will be rewarded for it. To directly answer your question, I think the Tribulation saints help God rule the universe as they are worshipping. Like I’ve said, I don’t think that people will be standing around the throne worshipping all of the time, but I think we will be doing jobs and activities that are infused with the worship of God. We will be worshipping as we do those activities. So, we will be worshipping as we are helping God rule the universe. |
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Post by Natalie on Nov 5, 2019 14:21:57 GMT -6
I see it as similar to "pray without ceasing". Obviously we can't spend 24 hrs a day everyday praying. I think the elders and the 4 creatures are the same. They have duties but also worship. The 4 creatures show up other places in Scripture (personally, I think the elders do too in the form of God's council). They are doing things other than just bowing and saying Holy, Holy, Holy.
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Post by venge on Nov 5, 2019 14:27:37 GMT -6
matthew2423I think the new earth is our earth. It’s new because it’s reborn from flesh to spirit. The inhabitants change and his kingdom has come. That makes it new. The city is what God had planned for us to live in. A city provides protection from enemies. God is that to us. A city also sets forth certain laws, which God also does. A city also has renown, which The future city will be known for. But these things come when the bride comes because right now, we have Babylon and a harlot. Why is a city defined as a harlot if it’s people left God for others gods? And if this people repent and have faith, are clean and worthy to go from harlot under Babylon to Bride under New Jerusalem... Understand that a city itself is not at fault. It’s the people’s spiritual matter that is at fault. And the people of one city are not responsible for the wicked of the earth. But a system that causes drunkenness over the earth comes from a city, figuratively. Read Jeremiah 50-51 and think about Revelation when you read it. Many points in it demonstrate a non literal matter.
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Post by venge on Nov 5, 2019 14:33:55 GMT -6
I see it as similar to "pray without ceasing". Obviously we can't spend 24 hrs a day everyday praying. I think the elders and the 4 creatures are the same. They have duties but also worship. The 4 creatures show up other places in Scripture (personally, I think the elders do too in the form of God's council). They are doing things other than just bowing and saying Holy, Holy, Holy. the implication is that it is a part of their daily life. Not that it’s 24 hrs a day. God needs to be in every part of our life, not just: Sunday morning Sunday evening But at school At the gas station At work (what are you saying) At the movies (what are you watching) On the phone (what are you viewing) Etc Not just the good times but when we are alone in our wicked thoughts, we need God there. And we all fail. Doing simple things like abstaining from a bad movie is worship because you’re sacrificing your flesh for his Glory. Giving time to others before yourself is worship because he teaches to be a servant to others And on and on. So we do all things to glorify God. |
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Post by matthew2423 on Nov 5, 2019 14:49:13 GMT -6
venge, I do believe that there is the spiritual Babylonian system that is known as the harlot that corrupts the earth. I don’t deny that there are symbolic or spiritual parts of the Book of Revelation or end-times Bible prophecy. I just don’t believe that based on the way that Scripture should be interpreted (which is a literal, child-like way of reading the Bible), that we should interpret Biblical end-times prophecy as just having a symbolic interpretation. People interpret almost all of the Bible to be literal, but because they think that prophecy is a whole other genre (apocalyptic), then that should be only figurative or only symbolic. There are symbolic parts to prophecy, and there is prophecy in Scripture that has been fulfilled in history (like Daniel 8, which discusses Alexander the Great’s Greek empire and the Successor kingdoms after it). But, I think that because Revelation mainly talks about prophecy that is to occur at the very end of the world, I think that Revelation should be interpreted to be a literal prophecy of what is to come at the very end of the world. Revelation 1:1a says, “The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.” The “what must soon take place” is the events that occur at the very end of the world. I believe that there will be a literal Rapture that occurs before the Tribulation (which, thanks to y’all in this thread, I’m starting to think that we stay on earth in our resurrection bodies and are divinely protected by God during the Tribulation), a literal, seven year Tribulation with a literal Antichrist (and it’s one real life human being rather than a symbol), a literal Millennium that occurs after a literal Second Coming and a literal Battle of Armageddon, and a literal “passing away” of the earth and the universe by fire, and finally, a literal new heaven and a new earth and a literal city called the New Jerusalem which serves as the capital city of God’s Kingdom. Again, I don’t deny that there are symbolic applications to end-times prophecy, even in the Book of Revelation. But, I don’t think that we should limit apocalyptic literature in Scripture to have only a symbolic interpretation. I’m not discounting or criticizing your view that Revelation is symbolic, but I’m also trying to maybe tell you that there are other interpretations, such as a literal interpretation, that could be true as well.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Nov 5, 2019 18:24:22 GMT -6
sigh. there is a difference to what is symbolic. what is literal physical, what is literal-spiritual, what is allegory and what is metaphor.
When we read Revelation we are reading the view point of a man who was taken up in the Spirit. Not allegory, not metaphorically, not literal physical, but SPIRITUAL. What is going on behind the scenes in the spiritual realm is what John was shown. There MAY be some direct 1=1 events, but based on the whole context of the revealing of the TRUTH of Jesus, it seems we need to use what is shown in scripture of the things that John sees in the Spiritual. It is right there mostly in the entire OT. Makes perfect sense that God painted a picture for us of of His Plan in the OT compilation. The elements there help desicern what John was seeing. A very real literal spiritual representation from the view point of heaven and being "in the Spirit".. Why is this an argument?
HOw is it that we can all agree that the Lord's House is something not tangible (made with hands) yet, there are heels dug in the ground when some of us come along and say, hjey, look at what the Truth of Jesus does to "trees", and why all this "problem" with water ways?
Why? Because the Lord God is in everything, is He not? Really meditate on the power of water. Allegroy? yes, ok, if that is what you want to do, but is by no accident that WATER is one of the witnesses. John pointed this out in an epistle. Water? really? can you ask water a question? I am not being haughty here, but trying to point out that the Lord our God has been and will speak thru His creation, even to prophets, so to limit Him to literal physical only, to me is not an amen on my part to be kind. We are to set our minds of things of the SPIRTI! quoting Paul...
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Post by Natalie on Nov 5, 2019 18:53:30 GMT -6
I don't agree that the Father's house isn't tangible.
I also didn't say that everything is literal. Scripture explains things that aren't literal.
One way I see Revelation is as an organization of all the OT eschatological Scriptures. The book makes sense when reading the OT and the OT can make more sense when having read Revelation.
I also see it as a Revelation of what takes place after the church age / during the Time of Jacob's Trouble.
I apologise for not being able to see the spiritualization side. It's just not how I am wired, and God has not shown me that it needs to be that way.
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Post by sog on Nov 5, 2019 19:18:25 GMT -6
Why limit ourselves to either spiritual OR literal? Could it not be both at the same time? Over and over God has used physical literal objects and signs and events to represent something spiritual. Why? Because man is sometimes doubtful and needs to see and touch something tangible. countless verses bear this out. it doesn’t discount the spiritual belief, in fact God has praised those who can “see” without actually seeing. But, why would it be different here? Revelation is mainly future, but is still a continuation of man’s, Jesus, and God’s story. God’s power should not be limited to one or the other. He is fully capable of presenting both to the world at the same time.
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Post by Natalie on Nov 5, 2019 19:24:14 GMT -6
I do believe that there is the spiritual Babylonian system that is known as the harlot that corrupts the earth. I don’t deny that there are symbolic or spiritual parts of the Book of Revelation or end-times Bible prophecy. I just don’t believe that based on the way that Scripture should be interpreted (which is a literal, child-like way of reading the Bible), that we should interpret Biblical end-times prophecy as just having a symbolic interpretation. People interpret almost all of the Bible to be literal, but because they think that prophecy is a whole other genre (apocalyptic), then that should be only figurative or only symbolic. I agree.
When my son was about 12, I mentioned that there were things in the Bible that hadn't happened yet, like the end of the world and Jesus returning. He was fascinated, and so we read through a study on Revelation together (by Jack Kelley). I'm sure he didn't get everything (I don't!  ), but there was no need for him to spiritualize the book to understand it. Things that are not literal are explained (like the beast, although I had to take him to Daniel for help on that, but he realized that it wasn't an actual seven headed beast; there had to be an explanation). |
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Post by Natalie on Nov 5, 2019 19:34:22 GMT -6
Why limit ourselves to either spiritual OR literal? Could it not be both at the same time? Over and over God has used physical literal objects and signs and events to represent something spiritual. Why? Because man is sometimes doubtful and needs to see and touch something tangible. countless verses bear this out. it doesn’t discount the spiritual belief, in fact God has praised those who can “see” without actually seeing. But, why would it be different here? Revelation is mainly future, but is still a continuation of man’s, Jesus, and God’s story. God’s power should not be limited to one or the other. He is fully capable of presenting both to the world at the same time. I get what you are saying, but to me, there should be an explanation when something is not literal.
But to have John see a city with measurable dimensions...to me that is not spiritual. To say there is no temple because God and the Lamb is the temple...that sounds like both. Because obviously a temple is a building but Jesus is not. (Rev 21:22)
The Tree of Life...was in the Garden. To me it's not spiritual.
I could see that something like this could be both: "By [the city's light given by God and the Lamb] will the nations walk, and the kings of earth will bring their glory into it." (Rev 21:24) It's a physical city lit by God's glory, but because God dwells there then also all truth and holiness radiates from there. Like the verse that God's Word is a lamp for our feet. The Bible is not a flashlight. |
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Post by sog on Nov 5, 2019 19:52:40 GMT -6
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Nov 5, 2019 20:24:13 GMT -6
Natalie , Post by Natalie on about an hour ago Nat, this reply says a ton for me in a good way. Today, driving to and fro from where I need to go, there is trouble on the road. This has happened since an "earthquake" happened, epicenter 25 miles away. Yet, as I see the water breaching the road, and the mud (earth) giving way to the water carrying it along, I can not help but appreciate why the Lord refers to things or tells us the similes that are the world around us that carry HUGE spiritual meaning behind them. Water is the universal solvent in a literal physical world. Is this by accident? This is what I am talking about. Water does a lot to move "earth" around. When we "plant a seed" of truth, some plant it, some come along and till the soil, some water it after it is established. HOW can we as Chrsit-followers ignore the spiritual depths of literal physical things around us? That is all I am asking. I am not trying to build some heretical doctrine about some tree, I am saying, God established the tree(s) we see, and behind it is a spiritual reason, both metaphorical yet ALSO literally spiritual. Why are the VINEYARDS burning in California? (the Beautiful Land?) does that have ANYTHING to do with drawing a picture of refinement about to happen before us? Why did 12 boys have to be rescued from a cave by swimming thru a channel of water, of which, one man gave his life in order for those boys to be saved? (this was in Thailand a year ago or so). These things have HUGE spiritual meanings behind them. Not metaphors, but real tangible spiritual situations the Lord is screaming from the roof tops to those who will hear Him. I actually think you see these things, but do not identify them the same way. and, I will say, hermeneutics is very good at squelching the Spirit based on its literal physical definition. I find it sad. Yet, I get it. whole cults have been made by people walking around in fake spirits. But does that mean we deny the Spiritual language God has out forth? after all, the Word was in the Beginning, and the Word was with God and the Word became Flesh. the Word here is the word Logos and it means a word, speech, divine utterance, analogy.The devine utterance became flesh... How do you wrap your brain around that?! I mean that is a hyper excited, loving, freedom sort of way! Jesus even talks about His self on the road to Emmaus.. He Himself says it was ALL ABOUT HIM, this guy Moses and stuff. The SPIRITUAL image manifested in Moses, etc... this is what I am trying to say.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Nov 5, 2019 20:27:48 GMT -6
yeah, the explanation comes from the Holy Spirit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by Natalie on Nov 5, 2019 20:42:10 GMT -6
yeah, the explanation comes from the Holy Spirit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I know what you mean...
But.....
people can say the Holy Spirit tells them all sorts of things. I mean that right there in the context should explain that it's not literal -- or being the book of Revelation the explanation could be in the OT because as I have said I see Revelation as pulling everything together.
Sorry, but I feel that hermeneutics is a way not to wander off into false teachings. I think it's valuable. Maybe you see it as limiting, but I pray that if God wants me to see something then He will show me.
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), but there was no need for him to spiritualize the book to understand it. Things that are not literal are explained (like the beast, although I had to take him to Daniel for help on that, but he realized that it wasn't an actual seven headed beast; there had to be an explanation).