|
|
Post by mike on Oct 31, 2019 8:53:15 GMT -6
yardstick - question for you my friend...You may not have read the whole thread (yet) but arent there 10-11 mathematically possible dimensions, yet being in our earth suits we can only experience three (plus time being the fourth)? Did you prove this out in "Math Class"?
|
|
|
|
Post by Natalie on Oct 31, 2019 12:07:56 GMT -6
mike , I understand the dilemma. I guess maybe we would have to answer "When does He appear?" Is that at a rapture or at a Second Coming when all eyes will see Him? Or am I missing what you are seeing?  (That we are with Him now and will be always with Him ?) Something to think on though. I also have wondered about those who were raised at the time of the Crucifixion. Where did they go after wandering around town? Did they die a second time? If they were changed into immortal bodies they would still be on earth wouldn't they? Is Ephesians 4:8 a clue? If He took them with Him to heaven when He ascended, then that would be like the rapture. ? ?? So many questions.... 
|
|
|
|
Post by mike on Oct 31, 2019 12:32:26 GMT -6
Natalie Jaco Prinsloo did a video about "Firstfruits" which I posted on the forum a few months back. His relation of firstfruits to Leviticus and the wave offering were very eye opening. In the extremely short version Christ was firstfruits but it also includes a wave offering or sample (Jesus), the main harvest (rapture) and the corners left for the poor (trib saints).
|
|
|
|
Post by barbiosheepgirl on Oct 31, 2019 20:15:26 GMT -6
Col 3:3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is youra life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory
mike this is so key! We think we have all the technology, advancements, KNOWLEDGE, scholars with published books (how can they be wrong with all their credentials)… This is why We should remain steadfast and open to some things to happen not the way we expect it. ESPECIALLY when there are books telling us or movies showing us what it is gonna be like, at the Return (or the events prior to the return). We must shake off these "ideas". We must do what Paul says on either side of the verse you posted:
1Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
2Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth
4When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory..
questions:
have any of us believers been raised up physically yet remain alive? What is Paul saying here in verse 1? To me he is giving the spiritual picture, not an allegory. I can say this boldly because he is always telling to do verse 2 of Col3.. set our minds on the things ABOVE!!!!
look at verse 4 in the context of the order of events. When do the followers of Him get revealed? when HE HIMSELF is revealed. IS this allegory? is this right now in our ministries? or is this about His 2nd Coming? Wait, tho, we will be revealed with him in glory. Are any of us glorified yet? Not yet, right?
|
|
|
|
Post by yardstick on Oct 31, 2019 23:25:59 GMT -6
yardstick - question for you my friend...You may not have read the whole thread (yet) but arent there 10-11 mathematically possible dimensions, yet being in our earth suits we can only experience three (plus time being the fourth)? Did you prove this out in "Math Class"? Mike, I think directing people to the ' Math Class' where we discuss that there can be demonstrated 10 dimensions (using imaginary numbers - they have their uses in engineering applications) might be helpful. Also, the thread that prompted the 'Math Class' thread, some may find interesting. The general gist of them is that it's possible that angels are 4th (or higher) dimensional beings; hence are able to come and go on our 3-D 'plane'. |
|
|
|
Post by venge on Nov 1, 2019 9:27:26 GMT -6
mike , I understand the dilemma. I guess maybe we would have to answer "When does He appear?" Is that at a rapture or at a Second Coming when all eyes will see Him? Or am I missing what you are seeing? (That we are with Him now and will be always with Him ?) Something to think on though. I also have wondered about those who were raised at the time of the Crucifixion. Where did they go after wandering around town? Did they die a second time? If they were changed into immortal bodies they would still be on earth wouldn't they? Is Ephesians 4:8 a clue? If He took them with Him to heaven when He ascended, then that would be like the rapture. ? ?? So many questions.... What if the rapture was the 2nd coming? As a hypothetical 😊 |
|
|
|
Post by Natalie on Nov 1, 2019 9:35:57 GMT -6
Wouldn't that make the rapture after God's wrath? I don't think the Bible supports that. |
|
|
|
Post by venge on Nov 1, 2019 10:06:37 GMT -6
Wouldn't that make the rapture after God's wrath? I don't think the Bible supports that. The rapture is still before God’s wrath as most tribulation theories espouse. And if so, and they are the same event, is it possible the Bible does support it and that it hasn’t been revealed to everyone yet just as some other things in the Bible have not been revealed to a person, but in time it can be? |
|
|
|
Post by mike on Nov 1, 2019 12:51:29 GMT -6
yardstick - question for you my friend...You may not have read the whole thread (yet) but arent there 10-11 mathematically possible dimensions, yet being in our earth suits we can only experience three (plus time being the fourth)? Did you prove this out in "Math Class"? Mike, I think directing people to the ' Math Class' where we discuss that there can be demonstrated 10 dimensions (using imaginary numbers - they have their uses in engineering applications) might be helpful. Also, the thread that prompted the 'Math Class' thread, some may find interesting. The general gist of them is that it's possible that angels are 4th (or higher) dimensional beings; hence are able to come and go on our 3-D 'plane'. Thanks bro...I heard (Missler?) explain it like "imagine we lived in a 2D world, so everything was like drawn on paper and a 3D object entered the 2D world. If that object were a sphere were first see it as a point, then a ring, increasing in size until it hit the max diameter, then the ring would decrease eventually back to a point." |
|
|
|
Post by mike on Nov 1, 2019 12:56:10 GMT -6
Venge, Natalie - if our conversion could be anything like the 2D/3D scenario I posted above, we not being limited to the physics of this present world would spare us from wrath in the physical realm. This the rapture could in fact be at any point of the tribulation.
I think the idea of us being spared from wrath and completely removed from earth (as in disappeared) ties back to not experiencing His wrath. But not being a physical being any longer but a spirit (like the angels) would also spare us from the wrath to come
|
|
|
|
Post by matthew2423 on Nov 1, 2019 14:17:44 GMT -6
mike, I do think that God will give us new resurrection bodies, but that they will have supernatural capabilities and as you claim, I think that they will be 10-dimensional bodies. All we know from Scripture is that our resurrection body will be like Jesus’ body, and it’s possible that Jesus’ resurrection body was able to access the 10 dimensions of God’s cosmic order. However, I don’t think Scripture supports the claim that we will be transformed into spirits (like angels) at the rapture.
|
|
|
|
Post by disciple4life on Nov 1, 2019 15:24:11 GMT -6
mike , I understand the dilemma. I guess maybe we would have to answer "When does He appear?" Is that at a rapture or at a Second Coming when all eyes will see Him? Or am I missing what you are seeing? (That we are with Him now and will be always with Him ?) Something to think on though. I also have wondered about those who were raised at the time of the Crucifixion. Where did they go after wandering around town? Did they die a second time? If they were changed into immortal bodies they would still be on earth wouldn't they? Is Ephesians 4:8 a clue? If He took them with Him to heaven when He ascended, then that would be like the rapture. ? ?? So many questions.... What if the rapture was the 2nd coming? As a hypothetical 😊 Isn't that a lot like saying "What if the two witnesses are the elders, Hypothetically? First, scripture doesn't support this. Why would there be contradicting descriptions with two different names? This would also make the dead in Christ rising up to heaven, but living Christians going down to Earth - There are threads on here with multiple people already posting scripture after scripture and there are charts with multiple verses which show the very distinct differences between the two events.
For those who don't believe in pre-tribulation rapture, - or that we go through the tribulation, then it's virtually a given. Lots of Christians lump the two together, and even on this forum, many people mention the second coming, but they really mean the rapture, and when you ask them, then they say rapture. It's largely because 'Second Coming' is very confusing and imprecise. People talk about the seals and bowls and trumpets, the hail, AntiChrist and the 3rd temple, disease and Ezekiel 38 war, - all in the context of end times events - Second Advent.
I've never met a single person in any denomination, church, state or country who thinks that the second coming could happen at the beginning of the tribulation or the middle. There is just no other way to explain the sense or the point of people being raptured at the end of the Tribulation/ Christians go up, vanish off the earth, meet Christ in the clouds, and then instantly come back down with him on the mount of Olives.
Except for the replacement theology folks, there is almost universal agreement that the second coming happens at the end of the tribulation. The difference of opinion lies more in the timing of the rapture itself- Pre-Trib, vs Mid Trib.
|
|
|
|
Post by mike on Nov 1, 2019 17:11:52 GMT -6
mike , I do think that God will give us new resurrection bodies, but that they will have supernatural capabilities and as you claim, I think that they will be 10-dimensional bodies. All we know from Scripture is that our resurrection body will be like Jesus’ body, and it’s possible that Jesus’ resurrection body was able to access the 10 dimensions of God’s cosmic order. However, I don’t think Scripture supports the claim that we will be transformed into spirits (like angels) at the rapture. I may have needed to clarify that a bit more. "Like the Angels" meaning the verse below. Angels also take on human form so it's possible we like Jesus could walk into rooms without opening doors, things like that. We will have a body but what that looks like (I agree) is found only in the examples we have on Jesus' resurrected form Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. |
|
|
|
Post by venge on Nov 2, 2019 7:47:43 GMT -6
What if the rapture was the 2nd coming? As a hypothetical 😊 Isn't that a lot like saying "What if the two witnesses are the elders, Hypothetically? First, scripture doesn't support this. Why would there be contradicting descriptions with two different names? This would also make the dead in Christ rising up to heaven, but living Christians going down to Earth - There are threads on here with multiple people already posting scripture after scripture and there are charts with multiple verses which show the very distinct differences between the two events.
For those who don't believe in pre-tribulation rapture, - or that we go through the tribulation, then it's virtually a given. Lots of Christians lump the two together, and even on this forum, many people mention the second coming, but they really mean the rapture, and when you ask them, then they say rapture. It's largely because 'Second Coming' is very confusing and imprecise. People talk about the seals and bowls and trumpets, the hail, AntiChrist and the 3rd temple, disease and Ezekiel 38 war, - all in the context of end times events - Second Advent.
I've never met a single person in any denomination, church, state or country who thinks that the second coming could happen at the beginning of the tribulation or the middle. There is just no other way to explain the sense or the point of people being raptured at the end of the Tribulation/ Christians go up, vanish off the earth, meet Christ in the clouds, and then instantly come back down with him on the mount of Olives.
Except for the replacement theology folks, there is almost universal agreement that the second coming happens at the end of the tribulation. The difference of opinion lies more in the timing of the rapture itself- Pre-Trib, vs Mid Trib.
1. My response was to Natalie 2. We can agree to disagree If you read the entire thread, you’d see that there is no evidence to support we 100% without a doubt vanish and that we leave the earth at the rapture. These are things people believe, have been taught, or how they interpret things. But scripture doesn’t say that when you break down the verses. You have already demonstrated that you are pre TB and incapable of looking at things any other way as your finishing statements show above. There is no need to reply to me if we cannot have meaningful conversation. That could include disagreement but also taking a step back and discovering why this person thinks this way. That allows one another to not assume things like: replacement theology and statements such as these that are meant for heretics. We are to prove ALL things. Each ourselves. Not the Church and not the Pastor for us. Each ourselves. We are not to be like the Pharisees following the doctrine of man. And yet, it happens today in the Church. |
|
|
|
Post by Natalie on Nov 2, 2019 9:16:00 GMT -6
But putting Scripture together some of us do see that we do leave. It depends on if you take them literally or not.
Philippians 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior the Lord Jesus Christ.
Isaiah 26:19-21 and 1 Thes 4:15-5:3 (which I posted earlier in the thread)
John 14:2-4 In my Father's house are many rooms...I will come again to take you...
|
|
(That we are with Him now and will be always with Him ?) Something to think on though.
