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Post by kjs on Oct 28, 2019 18:45:45 GMT -6
Does the Bible tell us that we have to go to the "Father's House" immediately following our catching-up? <<Serious question<< Is it possible after the 1000 yr. reign of Christ the New Jerusalem is created? Is there any reason it can't be? (The beginning of the 8th millennium = all things new?) I think angels were created first Job 38:4-7 you are correct Mike..... There is not a specific timeline that says -- this will happen at time X and Then that is followed by Time Y....
(You kind of have a small one in Thessalonians -- when first dead raised followed by we alive)
Any rate we are only promised to be with God/Jesus/Holy Spirit -- which may or may not be in heaven.....
We do know Jesus will rule on Earth 1k years -- so it is possible we will be here with him.....
BUT we will have different bodies .... whatever that means (Chuck Missler like to say there are ten dimensions) -- if true maybe the different bodies can access all the dimensions.
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Post by disciple4life on Oct 28, 2019 18:50:56 GMT -6
kjs , disciple4life , venge , Gary , I believe the definitive rapture verse is Revelation 7:9 where a huge multitude of people suddenly appear in heaven after a massive earthquake. The crowd is so huge that no man could possibly count them all. They are from earth - from every nation, tribe, people and language. I believe this pretty much cements the fact that we will leave earth! Whether we stay there in heaven or not remains to be seen. We follow LORD Jesus wherever he goes. For those who think these people are tribulation saints...why should they get to leave earth and we don't? Scripture is very clear! www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+7&version=NIV Raindrop, I didn’t say we will never leave earth. Idk. But that verse posted above does not say we will leave earth. In regards to Rev 7, those are spirits not yet glorified. They eventually receive white robes. They may be those that rise at that time. But I’m still looking for scriptural support but this is Not to debunk anyone here. We all have been taught things in the church. The issue is things from God or doctrine of man. These aren’t things that effect our personal walk with God. But I think about them because if I’m to believe it, I need to see that God said it. Not that we as believers think it because we were told. That’s not good enough for me. You said that you need to see that God said it. Well, if you look for Trinity in the Bible, it's not there, nor is rapture. But when we cross-reference and apply basic principles of Bible Interpretation, not only is the physical and literal rapture of the church off of earth irrefutable, it's one of the core doctrines of all of Christianity, along with the virgin birth and inspiration of scripture. It's a fundamental part of many creeds.
1. If the text seems to make literal sense, seek no other sense or it will be nonsense. One of the dangers that can lead to heresy and confusion is to make things allegory/ symbolism when it is not warranted. As Gary listed, the passage is the most clear passage in the Bible for a physical and literal resurrection/ rapture of the believers. - First, the word is Harpazo- and it means to snatch up quickly. - Second, look at the context - the context of 1 Thessalonians is not poetry, or apocalyptic genre. It's a real letter to real believers in the first century who thought the Rapture/snatching away - and second coming of Christ had already happened. Paul is reassuring them that it has not, and what that will be like.
First he mentions the physical and literal rising of Christ from the dead. Then, those who are dead in Christ will rise first, - they won't be wondering around here on earth - like zombies. Then, we who are alive will be caught up with these resurrected saints, and with Christ. Where is Christ? On earth? No, he is in heaven. How do we know that Paul was not meaning after the millennial reign, or that Christ was on earth?? Because it says it explicitly in the previous verse. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
- Third, when we cross -reference this with other uses, it is irrefutable and unmistakably clear. In the passage in Acts, Phillip reads to the Ethiopian eunuch, who then is baptized by Phillip in the river. Acts 8:37-39 37 And Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
38 And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him.
39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch no longer saw him, but went on his way rejoicing.
The text is explicitly clear on three key things, - He was literally and physically caught up - Harpazo-ed raptured. - He vanished, he was physically missing. - The context is epistle - letter to a real group of believers in Thessalonica, and so one can't say it was symbolic. Chariot was real, the water was real, the rapture event was real.
When we compare this with the other passage of 'Harpazo', we have the Revel 12 sign. Hmmm. Rev 12:4 And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.
The Male Child, Christ
5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.
There are a lot of gray areas regarding end times - which are just not clear - kept hidden by God, and there is lots of room for speculation- The two witnesses, the exact identity of the Anti-Christ, the exact timing of the rapture, and tribulation events, pre-trib, vs mid-trib etc.
The literal and physical rapture of the church is not one of these that are unclear or something that we just can't be sure about. It's as sure as the Trinity.
That's My Take.
venge,Gary,raindrop,barbiosheepgirl,mike,Natalie,fitz,kjs,venge,Gary,raindrop,barbiosheepgirl,mike,Natalie,fitz,kjs,Disciple4life
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Post by venge on Oct 29, 2019 5:38:37 GMT -6
I enjoy reading some of the responses because some of you have surprised me and are thinking outside the box.
If the Lord descends from heaven, he’s not in heaven with us when we are changed. He leaves heaven and goes to earth. Now, on earth, in the air/clouds of the sky receives us. Or do we receive him? We meet him...but who receives who? We are changed while in the sky on earth. Christ, having not yet returned to heaven, is now with us and we with him right? But non of that says we are removed from earth: it’s land or sky. It only says we are with him. It does not say he goes back to heaven. It starts with he leaves heaven and arrives on earth in the sky.
This is not pre TB or post TB etc...
This is about, do we follow what we are taught: man’s law or ideas
Or do we follow what the text says?
I’ve been taught we leave the earth at that point because of that verse. Exactly how Gary put it. I’m not picking on Gary, I know he loves God. But as I read it, it doesn’t say that. I think people just assume or wish for it. They are hopeful for it. And that’s great to be hopeful. We aught to be for our Lord. But I want to be careful about what it says.
There’s no denying the change, the meeting and his descent. Only of our removal right then. We can’t say we leave earth once changed if it doesn’t say that. And if we don’t leave earth while with him, why are we and he there after our change?
It’s questions like this, that I ask myself to dig deep. I’m being sincere about this. I have ideas of my own but I’m looking for scriptural fact. Not my own ideas.
Mike, I appreciate your openness to look at both sides of the coin. Because you allow yourself to question what is right vs wrong. You are looking for truth because once found, scripture will show us. And I love you for that fact.
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Post by mike on Oct 29, 2019 7:11:25 GMT -6
This is not pre TB or post TB etc... This is about, do we follow what we are taught: man’s law or ideas Or do we follow what the text says? Mike, I appreciate your openness to look at both sides of the coin. Because you allow yourself to question what is right vs wrong. You are looking for truth because once found, scripture will show us. And I love you for that fact. Venge - thank you for that and for sharing your studies with me and us. Some hold Pre-Trib, some Mid and some Post and that view seems to me to dictate how folks see the rapture. Take away the Trib from the equation and read the text(s) as they appear, which I have hopefully posted previously. If we are taken in a Pre-Trib rapture, off the earth to return 7 years later I wont complain and I dont think you will either. But for me to be dogmatic about that viewpoint would not be prudent as there are other ways to view the end times and fail to understand those because I think the view I currently hold is the only one, is foolish to me. I dont believe being staunch about things that havent happened yet is not wise. History I hold a bit differently. |
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Post by matthew2423 on Oct 29, 2019 7:16:49 GMT -6
Hello all!
I don’t think that we will vanish off the earth as is depicted in many films. However, the Scripture does say that we will be “caught up” to the heavens (which I think could mean the earth’s atmosphere) and meet the Lord in the air. I believe I saw a video on the news page for Unsealed that I think is a better depiction of the Rapture than a lot of people think. In the video, all of a sudden, these little light orbs (which I believe to be angels) came down to earth and caught people up to heaven (which is represented by lots of little light orbs). I think that this could be what happens, that believers might hear the heavenly trumpet and then, all in the span of a second (or maybe even milliseconds) we are transformed, we are caught up, we meet Jesus in the air, and then we go to Heaven. I think that Jesus will be literally up in the atmosphere for us to meet him there, so that He can take us to the place that He has prepared for us (which I believe is the third Heaven). When people see Jesus up in the air, this may be the time when unbelievers ask the rocks to fall on them in order to shield them from God’s wrath. As we all know, when millions or maybe billions of people from all around the world suddenly get caught up in the air, I think that is going to be extremely chaotic down on earth. Economic systems will probably crash, since there will be very few employees and employers, and vehicles and airplanes will crash because there will be no drivers or pilots driving those types of vehicles when they are raptured. Lots of unbelievers are probably going to die immediately after the Rapture because of the complete and utter chaos that will be happening. Another thing is that there will be a lot of suicidal deaths because people will have lost family members or friends that have been close to them. So, the rapture will hit everybody on earth, which I believe is one of the few catastrophic events that genuinely affects everybody on earth at the time it happens.
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Post by venge on Oct 29, 2019 10:05:48 GMT -6
Hello all! I don’t think that we will vanish off the earth as is depicted in many films. However, the Scripture does say that we will be “caught up” to the heavens (which I think could mean the earth’s atmosphere) and meet the Lord in the air. I believe I saw a video on the news page for Unsealed that I think is a better depiction of the Rapture than a lot of people think. In the video, all of a sudden, these little light orbs (which I believe to be angels) came down to earth and caught people up to heaven (which is represented by lots of little light orbs). I think that this could be what happens, that believers might hear the heavenly trumpet and then, all in the span of a second (or maybe even milliseconds) we are transformed, we are caught up, we meet Jesus in the air, and then we go to Heaven. I think that Jesus will be literally up in the atmosphere for us to meet him there, so that He can take us to the place that He has prepared for us (which I believe is the third Heaven). When people see Jesus up in the air, this may be the time when unbelievers ask the rocks to fall on them in order to shield them from God’s wrath. As we all know, when millions or maybe billions of people from all around the world suddenly get caught up in the air, I think that is going to be extremely chaotic down on earth. Economic systems will probably crash, since there will be very few employees and employers, and vehicles and airplanes will crash because there will be no drivers or pilots driving those types of vehicles when they are raptured. Lots of unbelievers are probably going to die immediately after the Rapture because of the complete and utter chaos that will be happening. Another thing is that there will be a lot of suicidal deaths because people will have lost family members or friends that have been close to them. So, the rapture will hit everybody on earth, which I believe is one of the few catastrophic events that genuinely affects everybody on earth at the time it happens. I think you’re quoting 2 Cor 12:2 2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven But that verse is not speaking of the meeting in the air with Christ. That verse is 1 Thessalonians 4:17 Ellicott says: To meet the Lord in the air.—St. Chrysostom says:” When the King cometh into a city, they that are honourable proceed forth to meet him, but the guilty await their judge within.” The phrase “in the air” certainly does not mean “heaven.” The word “air”) in itself properly signifies the lower, denser, grosser atmosphere, in which the powers of darkness reign (Ephesians 2:2); Barnes poses an opposite view to ellicott: To meet the Lord in the air - In the regions of the atmosphere - above the earth. It would seem from this, that the Lord Jesus, in his coming, would not descend to the earth, but would remain at a distance from it in the air, where the great transactions of the judgment will occur. It is, indeed, nowhere said that the transactions of the judgment will occur upon the earth. The world would not be spacious enough to contain all the assembled living and dead, and hence the throne of judgment will be fixed in the ample space above it. Matthew Poole seems to agree with Ellicott: To meet the Lord in the air: 1. To congratulate his coming, when others shall flee and tremble. 2. To put honour upon him; as the angels will also attend him for that end. 3. To receive their final discharge. 4. To be visibly joined to their Head. 5. To be assistants with him in judging of the world, and to reign with him upon earth. So, if we are joined in the clouds, where does Christ go from the meeting if he descended from heaven? Does he return to heaven with us or finish his descent? I recognize most have been taught he returns. I’m not looking to disprove anyone here. I’m looking for scripture. So everyone is free to continue to believe what you were taught. I’m just asking, let’s find scripture that says so. Either way, whether he returns or descends - we are with him and cannot be hurt by anything. Knowing that, being on earth with him is not beyond comprehension then as we were saved. If we return to heaven, why would we need to if we are immortal? We just received, being judged, our eternal crown of life. The spirits that seem to be in heaven or under the alter of souls eventually get white robes clearing their judgment and passing the test, but not new bodies? Idk |
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Post by matthew2423 on Oct 29, 2019 12:39:29 GMT -6
venge, I just assumed that we would return to Heaven after the Rapture to wait there until the Tribulation is complete, then at the battle of Armageddon at the end of the Tribulation, the Lord and the “armies of heaven” (which include us) would fight against the Antichrist and his armies (even though it is Jesus that is the only one doing the fighting, with the sword of his mouth). Also, harpazo, the Greek word that is commonly translated rapture that is found in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, could also mean “caught up”. I don’t think that we would return to the earth immediately following the rapture and start to rule on the earth, because if you have a pre-trib view, we would have to go to heaven to wait out the Tribulation, but also to commence the marriage of the Lamb to His Bride (the Church) and the marriage supper of the Lamb (which occurs in Heaven during the Tribulation. Those are my thoughts. Of course, it could be different according to the way it happens with the Lord’s will, but we will just have to wait and see.
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Post by venge on Oct 29, 2019 14:02:17 GMT -6
venge, I just assumed that we would return to Heaven after the Rapture to wait there until the Tribulation is complete, then at the battle of Armageddon at the end of the Tribulation, the Lord and the “armies of heaven” (which include us) would fight against the Antichrist and his armies (even though it is Jesus that is the only one doing the fighting, with the sword of his mouth). Also, harpazo, the Greek word that is commonly translated rapture that is found in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, could also mean “caught up”. I don’t think that we would return to the earth immediately following the rapture and start to rule on the earth, because if you have a pre-trib view, we would have to go to heaven to wait out the Tribulation, but also to commence the marriage of the Lamb to His Bride (the Church) and the marriage supper of the Lamb (which occurs in Heaven during the Tribulation. Those are my thoughts. Of course, it could be different according to the way it happens with the Lord’s will, but we will just have to wait and see. Harpazo: from bible hub harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize) It doesn’t seem to mean catching up as in upwards. It’s a sudden seizure of something extremely valued! Aren’t we like precious pearls or rubies to God? And we are valuable to him without measure. Seized to keep safe and sudden because destruction comes. We wait to be seized by Christ into safety before great destruction. If a volcano was about to erupt, you’d seize your children and get them to safety. It’s the same idea. In ours, comes the judgment and the reward. But I’m still looking for more scripture... |
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Post by matthew2423 on Oct 29, 2019 17:16:44 GMT -6
venge, That’s true, but I usually think that, according to the context, that it means that Jesus could be snatching us to the Third Heaven, where God is. Like I said, I think that this is where we wait out the Tribulation, and where the marriage and marriage supper of the Lamb happen. Jesus said Himself that if God didn’t shorten the Tribulation, then all of humanity would be killed. Plus, I don’t think that even if there was a rapture and God somehow allowed us to stay on earth as invisible resurrected people (which I interpret your comments to mean), I don’t think that we could live in a purely evil world, which is what the world will be like during the Tribulation, purely satanic and evil. That’s why I think that God will snatch us up to Heaven, and it is because that God wants to keep His Church safe and that He doesn’t want us to live in a world where every single Christian could be killed. And that’s what probably would happen if God didn’t remove us to the Third Heaven before the Tribulation starts. Every single believer during that time, when they would have not gotten snatched up to Heaven, would be killed. Revelation 12:4-5 says, “The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. She gave birth to a son, a male child, who ‘will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.’ And her child was snatched up to God and His throne.” The male child is Jesus Christ and us, the Church! We are the ones that will be snatched up to God and to His throne, which is the Third Heaven! As the Church, we have been destined since eternity past to rule the whole world with Jesus. But, before that can happen, we must be snatched up to God and to His throne in Heaven, in order to avoid being devoured by the dragon, or Satan. The snatching up is the rapture, and God is basically rescuing us, the male child, from Satan’s plan to destroy the church of God. That’s what I think I was trying to get at when I thought that we would go to Heaven when we are raptured. I think proof of that is found in Revelation 12:4-5, and I think those verses should be able to explain it for you. Sorry that I didn’t share that Scripture earlier, but it came to mind as I was writing this post.
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Post by disciple4life on Oct 29, 2019 21:15:16 GMT -6
Hello all! I don’t think that we will vanish off the earth as is depicted in many films. However, the Scripture does say that we will be “caught up” to the heavens (which I think could mean the earth’s atmosphere) and meet the Lord in the air. I believe I saw a video on the news page for Unsealed that I think is a better depiction of the Rapture than a lot of people think. In the video, all of a sudden, these little light orbs (which I believe to be angels) came down to earth and caught people up to heaven (which is represented by lots of little light orbs). I think that this could be what happens, that believers might hear the heavenly trumpet and then, all in the span of a second (or maybe even milliseconds) we are transformed, we are caught up, we meet Jesus in the air, and then we go to Heaven. I think that Jesus will be literally up in the atmosphere for us to meet him there, so that He can take us to the place that He has prepared for us (which I believe is the third Heaven). When people see Jesus up in the air, this may be the time when unbelievers ask the rocks to fall on them in order to shield them from God’s wrath. As we all know, when millions or maybe billions of people from all around the world suddenly get caught up in the air, I think that is going to be extremely chaotic down on earth. Economic systems will probably crash, since there will be very few employees and employers, and vehicles and airplanes will crash because there will be no drivers or pilots driving those types of vehicles when they are raptured. Lots of unbelievers are probably going to die immediately after the Rapture because of the complete and utter chaos that will be happening. Another thing is that there will be a lot of suicidal deaths because people will have lost family members or friends that have been close to them. So, the rapture will hit everybody on earth, which I believe is one of the few catastrophic events that genuinely affects everybody on earth at the time it happens. Hello Matthew,
Welcome to the forum, my brother. I've seen the same video with the hundreds of light orbs. ;-) Interesting for sure. Could there be thousands of angels that come and help catch us up to heaven?? Maybe. No evidence from scripture to suggest it, but there's a lot of things that are just sealed - and no amount of gematria, or combination of numbers or reason, or coincidences with blood moon tetrads will reveal the mystery of what God wants sealed.
As to the point of vanish - well scripture does say that's exactly what happened with the rapture of Phillip- he vanished. Poof.  !! Spirit caught him up and he vanished/ disappeared. That's why it's important to look at the other places where the same Greek word is used to get the whole picture.
One of the basic principles of Biblical interpretation is that we interpret scripture with scripture. When we look at the other instances of Harpazo - to be caught up, snatched up quickly as if by force, - we see that Phillip was caught up by God and vanished. That's not my opinion, or conjecture, - that's directly from the Bible. The passages in Acts and I Thessalonians are very significant, because not only do they all confirm the clear meaning, but these fragments are not poetry or apocalyptic literature. Acts is history - the Acts of the Apostles and the birth of the church, and 1 Thes is epistle.
People will believe what scripture clearly says or they won't. There are plenty of other examples of people totally dismissing clear scripture. Then, the other case is the verse you also quoted, Revelation 12:3-4. You made a great point about the Christians being in the marriage supper. The parable of the 10 bridesmaids is a picture of the rapture, and in a Jewish wedding, the Groom comes and takes his bride into the wedding chamber [Chuppah] for seven days, and then returns for the marriage feast.
That's my take, -- not sure of the exact timing, but it's my opinion that scripture gives multiple examples of warnings to God's people before calamity, or disaster, and that just like the example Christ gave of a woman giving birth, - there will be a water-breaking moment - and for those of us watching on the wall, "Children of the day" as Paul said, 'That day should not surprise us, like a thief in the night."
Disciple4life
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Post by venge on Oct 30, 2019 7:40:57 GMT -6
Ok, we can look at 2 points raised by disciple4life and Matthew.
Philip did vanish from the man’s site. But we don’t know that he was invisible. He was just removed. We just are not given more on it. The story’s importance lay not in Philip leaving abruptly, but the testimony of the man’s faith, willingness, remission and wishing to be baptized.
The 2 witnesses die and are raised and their enemies behold them being lifted upwards as the voice beckoned them. They are not invisible. Christ raised from the dead was seen as he ascended and were told will see him when he returns.
As far as the 10 virgins:
10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage:
The marriage/wedding feast parallels the rapture. Then the door is shut that was always opened for the wrath to come.
Rev 19:1-5 talk about Babylons destruction. Rev 14 points out Babylons destruction happens after the 144k are sealed. Yet Rev 19 shows the marriage happens after Babylons destruction.
In fact, Rev 19 says regarding the rapture/wedding,
6....saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
So, for the wedding to happen which begins when we are raptured as you point out, Christ must be reigning per verse 6.
In Rev 11:15-17 Christ is shown as beginning to reign.
15...The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
That demonstrates Christ reign coincides with the marriage and rapture. That event is scriptural and documented to happen after the seals and Trumpets.
But, I do not want to get off course on the original question. Do we leave earth? There is speculation, but I still don’t see scripture that says so.
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Post by mike on Oct 30, 2019 8:05:17 GMT -6
venge , That’s true, but I usually think that, according to the context, that it means that Jesus could be snatching us to the Third Heaven, where God is. But the verses in the Bible do not tell us we are snatched to the third heaven they say we meet the Lord in the air and will be with Him forever more. Like I said, I think that this is where we wait out the Tribulation, and where the marriage and marriage supper of the Lamb happen. Why must we wait out the Tribulation (in heaven)? All of Gods people were provided a way of escape & protection during tribulations. Why does the rapture break the pattern? Jesus said Himself that if God didn’t shorten the Tribulation, then all of humanity would be killed. If we are "changed" we are no longer humanity for flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. Plus, I don’t think that even if there was a rapture and God somehow allowed us to stay on earth as invisible resurrected people (which I interpret your comments to mean), I don’t think that we could live in a purely evil world, which is what the world will be like during the Tribulation, purely satanic and evil. Two thoughts, who says if we were here on earth we would be invisible? After Jesus rose was He invisible? He was supernatural. Humor this thought. If we are changed into our heavenly bodies and with the Lord forever more, would the evil and sin of the flesh affect us? That’s why I think that God will snatch us up to Heaven, and it is because that God wants to keep His Church safe and that He doesn’t want us to live in a world where every single Christian could be killed. Not possible if we are changed. we cannot be killed any longer. And that’s what probably would happen if God didn’t remove us to the Third Heaven before the Tribulation starts. Every single believer during that time, when they would have not gotten snatched up to Heaven, would be killed. Revelation 12:4-5 says, “The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. She gave birth to a son, a male child, who ‘will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.’ And her child was snatched up to God and His throne.” The male child is Jesus Christ and us, the Church! We are the ones that will be snatched up to God and to His throne, which is the Third Heaven! As the Church, we have been destined since eternity past to rule the whole world with Jesus. But, before that can happen, we must be snatched up to God and to His throne in Heaven, in order to avoid being devoured by the dragon, or Satan. The snatching up is the rapture, and God is basically rescuing us, the male child, from Satan’s plan to destroy the church of God. Satan has tried to destroy the church from day 6. He cant win, he wont win. That’s what I think I was trying to get at when I thought that we would go to Heaven when we are raptured. I think proof of that is found in Revelation 12:4-5, and I think those verses should be able to explain it for you. Sorry that I didn’t share that Scripture earlier, but it came to mind as I was writing this post. There is no definitive conclusion the Rev 12:4-5 is the rapture, its only a theory I added some comments and thoughts to the above. In no way am I criticizing you or the thoughts you have, just asking you to think outside what you've been taught or learned before. I desire for us (His church body) to be removed from this wicked world that is literally surrounding us and our brothers, especially those in the Middle East and East. I have long understood the version of the rapture that you sound familiar with. However I leave you with another thought - did the disciples and 11 actually recognize Jesus when He appeared to them after His resurrection? And they believed!!!! yet didnt recognize Him. Now as those who openly reject Christ today, would they recognize someone that was changed or rose from the dead? |
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Post by mike on Oct 30, 2019 8:13:22 GMT -6
venge , disciple4life , - the parable of the 10 virgins is most always associated with the church and those virgins who were prepared and those who werent. I'm not sure I believe that interpretation. Jesus was speaking to the Jews, not the church. Some Jews were eagerly desiring Messiah to come, no different than today. Some Jews recognized the Messiah when He came (the first time) others missed His arrival. As a believer applying this parable to Christians adds works to the mix. Is D4L more "prepared" than Mike and Mike is left behind when He appears? Maybe Venge has more oil in his lamp and Mike and D4L are left wondering what happened. Point is where do you draw that line? Do we say "well theres those who say they believe but dont produce fruit as evidence". Well then we are back at works...who's works demonstrate their faith and who's doesnt? Is that a fair assessment (I think not)?
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Post by Natalie on Oct 30, 2019 8:24:42 GMT -6
Isaiah 26:19-21
Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise.
You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy!
For your dew is a dew of light and the earth will give birth to the dead.
(1 Thes 4 - and the dead in Christ shall rise)
Come, my people, enter your chambers,
and shut your doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until the fury has passed by.
(1 Thes 4 and then we who are alive will be caught up to be with Jesus)
For behold, the LORD is coming out from His place
to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity,
and the earth will disclose the blood shed on it,
and will no more cover its slain.
(1 Thes 5 sudden destruction will come upon them)
John 14:2-3 In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.
If these are not the same chambers as Isaiah speaks of them what is Isaiah talking about? Are we to stockpile food and stay in our homes? When? For how long? How are we then always with Jesus? Or stay in our homes in our changed bodies? Then how are we with Jesus? Am I missing some other theory?
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Post by mike on Oct 30, 2019 8:40:35 GMT -6
Those are great questions Natalie, and I won't pretend to have adequate answers.
If I take the idea of a "pre-trib" rapture (removal) out of my thinking for the discussion, I can look at those verses and possibly understand that God's fury wouldn't affect me in the house He prepared for me.
Maybe I'm being narrow minded but if we will become like Him at the resurrection why would I think I could be harmed by physical destruction. We will no longer be flesh and blood, and we are hidden in Christ
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!! Spirit caught him up and he vanished/ disappeared. That's why it's important to look at the other places where the same Greek word is used to get the whole picture. 
