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Post by venge on Oct 30, 2019 9:35:25 GMT -6
Those are great questions Natalie, and I won't pretend to have adequate answers. If I take the idea of a "pre-trib" rapture (removal) out of my thinking for the discussion, I can look at those verses and possibly understand that God's fury wouldn't affect me in the house He prepared for me. Maybe I'm being narrow minded but if we will become like Him at the resurrection why would I think I could be harmed by physical destruction. We will no longer be flesh and blood, and we are hidden in Christ And that is the thought that crosses my mind. Once changed, we achieve victory over death. Staying on earth wouldn’t harm us. The idea of many mansions are not physical dwelling places. We have no need for a house at the resurrection. It’s meant to describe God’s provisions are large enough for all. When we are tabernacles with Christ, we are saved from his wrath. So if we were to be on earth with him, the wrath wouldn’t hurt us because we are made a kingdom of priests and rule with him. Do we judge the earth with him as reigning with him? |
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Post by Natalie on Oct 30, 2019 9:53:37 GMT -6
It depends on if you take the "chambers" literally as a place He is going to take us or not literally and say they just mean His provision. How do I know which way is correct? Maybe they both are?
Jesus said that He is coming to take them (us) to be with Him. So, He's taking people somewhere. |
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Post by venge on Oct 30, 2019 9:58:00 GMT -6
venge , disciple4life , - the parable of the 10 virgins is most always associated with the church and those virgins who were prepared and those who werent. I'm not sure I believe that interpretation. Jesus was speaking to the Jews, not the church. Some Jews were eagerly desiring Messiah to come, no different than today. Some Jews recognized the Messiah when He came (the first time) others missed His arrival. As a believer applying this parable to Christians adds works to the mix. Is D4L more "prepared" than Mike and Mike is left behind when He appears? Maybe Venge has more oil in his lamp and Mike and D4L are left wondering what happened. Point is where do you draw that line? Do we say "well theres those who say they believe but dont produce fruit as evidence". Well then we are back at works...who's works demonstrate their faith and who's doesnt? Is that a fair assessment (I think not)? The parable I linked was in Matt 25. Previous to this, Christ spoke to his disciples (Christians). And he said he would tell them things to come and the end of the age. This parable comes after that as if he is speaking to Christians (disciples). Matthew 26:1 follows this with: When Jesus had finished saying all these things, He told His disciples Finished what things? The parable of the 10 virgins, the things of future prophecy etc...which were told to them and perhaps others. In Luke 19, we don’t see the parable of the 10 virgins but we do have the story of the minas. This story most likely happened the same time as the virgin one and its said in Luke: 11While the people were listening to this, Jesus proceeded to tell them a parable, because He was near Jerusalem and they thought the kingdom of God would appear imminently The people were most likely his disciples following him and believers as well as non believing Jews. But his message was to those who might believe as his gospel is of the kingdom of God. I don’t think the message is worked based but that’s my opinion. If 5 had a lantern with oil. They also had extra oil for duration. They were ready to endure all night long to midnight! Isn’t that what we do? It’s not works for us to endure trials and tribulations on faith. The others took no extra oil. They had a lantern but didn’t care to keep their light burning. When the light went out, they still may have had 1 or 2 or 3 hours in darkness. Could you imagine if ur light went out? Would you immediately go get oil or be happy and content in darkness like they were? But when he comes, they panick and say to themselves...we need oil. But it’s too late. They made their decision when in darkness they cared not for the light. So this isn’t works based, but fleeing temptation. It is as Revelation says: the endurance and patience of the saints. Faith in Christ and God’s commandments. |
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Post by venge on Oct 30, 2019 10:00:42 GMT -6
It depends on if you take the "chambers" literally as a place He is going to take us or not literally and say they just mean His provision. How do I know which way is correct? Maybe they both are?
Jesus said that He is coming to take them (us) to be with Him. So, He's taking people somewhere. Yes, it is possible he takes us somewhere. Also possible is his harpazo is the taking of us and the somewhere is with him, not a specific place. We don’t know for sure, I wish I did. But I’m happy enough to know whether here or there- it’s with him! We can be assured on that. |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Oct 30, 2019 11:08:17 GMT -6
Natalie , Yet, at the beginning of this chapter (if we are to hold to chapter breaks, the audience is to JUDAH) So to take mike , s argument that the parable of the 10 bridesmaids is for the Jews, then well, so is Is 26. I am not arguing, just pointing out when scripture is said to be exclusive of others, or said another way, only meant for certain audiences, hence does not apply to a gentile Christ follower. All scripture is profitable, and I do not say amen to the theory that God's teachings are for one group and not another. The 10 bridesmaids parable. I do not see it as works. I see it as part of those who seem to "know" their Lord were not prepared to HEAR His voice so as to avoid the world's turmoil. They were relying on others to help them know their Lord. Translation, relying on others' faiths and faiths in others and not of their own heartfelt FAITH. Those who know their Lord will hear Him thru even times when it seems He is delaying. To me the parable is a representation of a person's Faith within the body of believers. So many people toss the word around about believing in God, but is the heart ALSO circumcised in that belief? Don't we say, we never the heart of a person? Look at how some who were seemingly so strong in faith, yet they left the faith. This happens. It does not to me define their salvation, but their WALK in FAITH is stumbling or shaken. Same with those 5 who ran out of oil.
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Post by Natalie on Oct 30, 2019 11:23:49 GMT -6
Sure, it's to Judah, but God is revealing to them a truth that is reiterated in 1 Thessalonians. Jew or Gentile (and alive or dead) - whoever believes in Christ will be resurrected to a life with Him.
ETA: But I think it's a mistake to say that all Scripture is directed to the Christian. This is where people then fall into Replacement Theology and the likes. Yes, the passage I used is directed to all that will believe in Jesus, but there are passages that are clearly just for the Jew and just for the Christian. All Scripture is profitable, but not all Scripture is directed at us or written about us. Some see the parable of the 10 virgins as being about the Second Coming. Jesus isn't coming for 10 virgins to be His Brides. It says the "Bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with Him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut." The wedding had already taken place and it was time for the wedding feast. In other words, Who will be ready at His physical second return? (Rev 19:9)
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Post by matthew2423 on Oct 30, 2019 15:46:37 GMT -6
mike and venge, So, just so I understand it, y’all think that the Rapture is not really a physical removal off of earth and into Heaven, but instead, it’s being in our resurrected bodies on the earth and we are being divinely protected by the Lord from any physical harm? Now, to me, that sounds a little bit cooler than being removed completely off the earth and being in the Third Heaven. I’m thinking now that perhaps our time during the Tribulation as resurrected beings could be like Jesus’ time as a resurrected Man on earth (which was 40 days). I’d like to think that being in our resurrected bodies might provide the time to teach the Tribulation saints, as well as evangelize to any lost family or friends that are unbelievers. I think that that would be better. I like your interpretation of the verse, and like I said, it would be better if we are just promised divine protection and that we are with the Lord on the earth.
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Post by mike on Oct 30, 2019 16:54:40 GMT -6
Natalie, thank you. The Isa passage causes me to pause, consider and continue to read and evaluate what the word says, not what I want it to say or think it should. We simply can't be definitive, but we can get close
Since coming to this site I have learned how to be open about ideas on prophecy as most have yet to have happened.
So again thank you
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Post by mike on Oct 30, 2019 17:07:14 GMT -6
mike and venge, So, just so I understand it, y’all think that the Rapture is not really a physical removal off of earth and into Heaven, but instead, it’s being in our resurrected bodies on the earth and we are being divinely protected by the Lord from any physical harm? Now, to me, that sounds a little bit cooler than being removed completely off the earth and being in the Third Heaven. I’m thinking now that perhaps our time during the Tribulation as resurrected beings could be like Jesus’ time as a resurrected Man on earth (which was 40 days). I’d like to think that being in our resurrected bodies might provide the time to teach the Tribulation saints, as well as evangelize to any lost family or friends that are unbelievers. I think that that would be better. I like your interpretation of the verse, and like I said, it would be better if we are just promised divine protection and that we are with the Lord on the earth. BAM! You got it brother, that is what I am saying. Can I prove it? Nope. Is it plausible? Very much so. As Natalie points out (at least to me) there are verses to reconcile to see if or how this "idea" or view of the rapture. But if they can be reconciled then it could be likely. I mean think about this...millions of graves open, the unbelieving world doesn't notice!? What would it take to wake up people who have been given over to their lists. Will some? Sure! Will a majority? I don't think so. Jesus rose and walked through walls, appeared (instantly), ate food, had (our) scars on His body but his 11 best friends didn't immediately recognize Him? Could that happen when He returns and/or empowers His church |
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Post by sog on Oct 30, 2019 18:08:41 GMT -6
This link explains some of what I've been thinking about this discussion. Could it be that there is a spiritual dimension that we just know little about? Possibly a place where demons and Angels battle for the souls of man? www.versebyverseministry.org/bible-answers/where-did-god-take-elijah-and-when-did-it-happenFrom link - The Bible's accounts of Enoch's translation and Elijah’s removal from the earth tell us nothing about what happened to them after they were removed from the Earth. We can only know they did not see death on earth. In the case of Enoch, we read this: Heb. 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God. Hebrews 11 says only that Enoch didn’t experience death. Nothing more is said about his destination after death. For Elijah, we read 2Kings 2:11 As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven. Again, we only know that Elijah was removed from the earth. The writer says Elijah was taken “to Heaven” but the Hebrew word for heaven is shamayim, which can take one of three distinct meanings: the sky, outer space or God’s throne room. We know the writer described Elijah’s departure from his perspective on the ground, so the writer could only say that Elijah was taken into the shamayim (i.e., the sky). Nothing more can be assumed about Elijah’s final destination. Therefore, in both cases, we cannot say from these passages that these men entered into the presence of God in bodily form. On the other hand, scripture says definitively that no man entered into Heaven before Christ. John 3:13 “No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.Furthermore, Paul says Christ is the first fruits of the resurrection (1Cor 15:23), which means He was the first to enter Heavenly in bodily form. The Bible says clearly “no man” preceded Christ, which rules out any exceptions. Furthermore, it is theologically impossible for a man to precede Christ into Heaven. Christ said that no man could reach the Father except through Him: John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. |
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Post by mike on Oct 30, 2019 18:35:19 GMT -6
Let's also consider the 144,000
Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Who is redeemed? Believers? Angels? When are redeemed actually redeemed? What does redemption mean for a believer?
Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Does not being defiled with women redeem them? Or not lying, does that do it?
What do the 144,000 do?
Rev 7:1-3 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads
Wait who cannot be hurt while all this is going on?
Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Oct 30, 2019 21:19:16 GMT -6
mike and venge , So, just so I understand it, y’all think that the Rapture is not really a physical removal off of earth and into Heaven, but instead, it’s being in our resurrected bodies on the earth and we are being divinely protected by the Lord from any physical harm? Now, to me, that sounds a little bit cooler than being removed completely off the earth and being in the Third Heaven. I’m thinking now that perhaps our time during the Tribulation as resurrected beings could be like Jesus’ time as a resurrected Man on earth (which was 40 days). I’d like to think that being in our resurrected bodies might provide the time to teach the Tribulation saints, as well as evangelize to any lost family or friends that are unbelievers. I think that that would be better. I like your interpretation of the verse, and like I said, it would be better if we are just promised divine protection and that we are with the Lord on the earth. AMEN! That is where I have come to at this point in my understanding as well. YES YES AMEN AMEN. It makes WAY more sense to me for Acts 1,2 repeated on spiritual steroids so to speak! The followers of Jesus to prepare His way, yet with immortal bodies. Yes, we are to have been doing this for 2000 years, but as His Kingdom begins to reign, it begins with this particular event explained right under our noses (the Sealing) in the BoR, aka The Word of Truth overcoming the world. Instead of 12 and 120, it is 12 x 12000 however you want to do the math. All with one mind, following the Lord wherever He wants to combat deception.
14These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
15And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)... and too, when Jesus returns with His army, are we going to be carrying rifles and bombs and arsenals of physical war? I am think that the more people are witnessed to on this level from "mid-heaven" immortality, the truth being like a two-edged sword will pierce thru the lies and deceit and lead many , oh so so many to the Lord. |
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Post by venge on Oct 31, 2019 4:07:54 GMT -6
Back to would we be removed from the earth...
Was Noah removed? No
Was Lot removed? No
Was Rahab removed? No
Was Daniel removed? No
Was Moses removed? No
When destruction came, none were removed off the earth, but all were protected. The difference this time is that we are changed. If we defeat death and it’s swallowed up in victory, being on earth won’t hurt us if we are with Christ because it cannot hurt him. We won’t be flesh and blood.
I keep getting lead back to we reign with Christ on earth, not heaven. Heaven may be our citizenship, not the fleshly world, but heaven is spiritual. So the question is, if we are protected on earth with Christ and we had been changed...what are we doing at that time we become changed?
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Post by matthew2423 on Oct 31, 2019 8:31:12 GMT -6
Back to would we be removed from the earth... Was Noah removed? No Was Lot removed? No Was Rahab removed? No Was Daniel removed? No Was Moses removed? No When destruction came, none were removed off the earth, but all were protected. The difference this time is that we are changed. If we defeat death and it’s swallowed up in victory, being on earth won’t hurt us if we are with Christ because it cannot hurt him. We won’t be flesh and blood. I keep getting lead back to we reign with Christ on earth, not heaven. Heaven may be our citizenship, not the fleshly world, but heaven is spiritual. So the question is, if we are protected on earth with Christ and we had been changed...what are we doing at that time we become changed? I say that it is a lot like Jesus’ time on earth post-resurrection and pre-ascension, which was 40 days. I’d say that we would minister to the Tribulation saints on earth, and also, we would try to evangelize to any lost family or friends that are in the Tribulation. Also, some people may believe that we’ve been resurrected, but others won’t. So, I wouldn’t be surprised if most of our family or friends that are in the Tribulation won’t believe that we’ve been resurrected, or even recognize us. |
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Post by mike on Oct 31, 2019 8:50:49 GMT -6
This is the part of the idea that gets fuzzy for me..."Where is (insert your name here) today?" work colleagues ask. Also how do we explain the graves open and the bodies missing that were in them or is that more ethereal than physical. Although I conflict with Matt 27:52-54 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. 54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.This is why we have alien theories popping up in abundance. And not that the explanation isnt highly possible, I am not satisfied with that one only  Some will realize and believe just like the centurion and they that were with him. But ask yourself this question what about the others that may have seen this or at the very least heard about it from the centurion and those around, what did those people think or how did they react? We're their hearts that hard that even though someone witnessed Jesus after being dead, & many other SAINTS come forth from death, they did not respond to this and believe? I realize the scale of the event from 2000 years ago was much smaller, but C'MON MAN!!! people were dead and buried and then they weren't!!! EDIT (1:40 PM 10/31) I may be taking this a bit out of context (Natalie) but it could help answer my conflict Col 3:3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is youra life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. |
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