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Post by mike on Nov 5, 2019 21:32:31 GMT -6
BSG - Moses was shown a literal spiritual Temple and told to replicate what he saw. So to some point I would agree here that the city John saw, being measurable was another example of something literally spiritual, explained in the physical.
Other examples are animals. Notice how many angels are described "like a bear", "like a lion" and so on. The physical is a reflection of sort of the heavenly.
(My have we strayed from the topic, but I'm loving this conversation)
Nat - the Bible is a flashlight! It is not a lamp (physically), not a light (physically) but metaphorically guides the steps of those that would follow the Word
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Post by Natalie on Nov 5, 2019 22:05:56 GMT -6
That's what I was trying to say, mike. It's a light but not a light.  |
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Post by venge on Nov 6, 2019 5:39:49 GMT -6
yeah, the explanation comes from the Holy Spirit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I know what you mean...
But.....
people can say the Holy Spirit tells them all sorts of things. I mean that right there in the context should explain that it's not literal -- or being the book of Revelation the explanation could be in the OT because as I have said I see Revelation as pulling everything together.
Sorry, but I feel that hermeneutics is a way not to wander off into false teachings. I think it's valuable. Maybe you see it as limiting, but I pray that if God wants me to see something then He will show me.
Natalie, That is exactly how I read Revelation! Revelation to me is interpreted by understanding Old Testament texts. That’s how I understand it. It’s not my own idea of what Revelation says but what OT scripture says of it. For each sentence in each trumpet I get the answer from the Bible. The Bible interprets the passage for me. And when you see the interpretation, you see it’s not literal how it’s written in our English but how God, who is always the same, spoke to early man and how they understood things in their environment as applicable to other things. Example: as a stone tossed into the sea sinks and you’ll never find it, so to a city will be thrown down and never found again. The interpretation is not next to every Revelation verse because it’s required to study the entire Bible for answers. And the Bible does answer it! I’m so happy that you said you can see the book of Revelation pulling OT books together. That’s exactly how God has lead me to understand it and in doing so, I read the Bible so much more than ever before and my understanding has grown, my love has grown, my faith has grown, my fighting the flesh has grown. I should add, I’m not saying not to take the Bible literally. Everyone read that? Take it literally first! As you read it you’ll grow in areas the Lord allows. Each of us growing different one from another. But eventually you’ll see things like a fog lifted off the eyes and the sense of Aha! Not that I have done, what God allows for his glory. And we all experience this in time. Some early on, some not for 20 years. I believe true unfiltered scripture should require prayer from the heart followed by a wanting to learn. Take out what you think you know and allow God to lead you! Don’t lead him. He takes the lead and instructs you to turn, dip, slide and follow. There is so much old language used in the Bible, it’ll become obvious what is not physical literal but spiritual literal as Mike mentioned |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Nov 6, 2019 10:45:44 GMT -6
I am going to say something about the topic at hand. When the fall of man happened, those two were "covered" in skin
21And Jehovah God doth make to the man and to his wife coats of skin, and doth clothe them.
22And Jehovah God saith, ‘Lo, the man was as one of Us, as to the knowledge of good and evil; and now, lest he send forth his hand, and have taken also of the tree of life, and eaten, and lived to the age,’ — 23Jehovah God sendeth him forth from the garden of Eden to serve the ground from which he hath been taken;
24yea, he casteth out the man, and causeth to dwell at the east of the garden of Eden the cherubs and the flame of the sword which is turning itself round to guard the way of the tree of life.
Prior to being sendeth forth from the garden, they walked with Him and 15And Jehovah God taketh the man, and causeth him to rest in the garden of Eden, to serve it, and to keep it. I believe it is this glorified state that they were in prior to the coats of skin, that we will become, right where we are standing. Whether we are in or out of our body I do not know, but we will be changed. We meet Him in the atmosphere around us. If we do go somewhere it is for rest, but I do believe we go in and out of the courts. Do others not glorified see us that way? not sure. But, I also see that it is this First Fruit event that goes about the work of the Lord to lead those "left behind". The Lord sent man out of the place where He had once allowed him to rest. I see this same pattern as the Lord Heals His creation but in reverse.
read Ezekiel 44 (and meditate with the Holy Spirit what is being said of this depiction). Not only what is said in the first 14 verses, but you will get to this part
15‘And the priests, the Levites, sons of Zadok, who have kept the charge of My sanctuary in the wandering of the sons of Israel from off Me, they draw near unto Me to serve Me, and have stood before Me, to bring near to Me fat and blood — an affirmation of the Lord Jehovah:
16they come in unto My sanctuary, and they draw near unto My table to serve Me, and they have kept My charge.
17And it hath come to pass, in their going in unto the gates of the inner court, linen garments they put on; and no wool cometh up on them in their ministering in the gates of the inner court and within.
18Linen bonnets are on their head, and linen trousers are on their loins, they are not restrained with sweat.
19And in their going forth unto the outer court — unto the outer court unto the people — they strip off their garments, in which they are ministering, and have placed them in the holy chambers, and have put on other garments; and they do not sanctify the people in their own garments.
‘Rise, and measure the sanctuary of God, and the altar, and those worshipping in it;
2and the court that is without the sanctuary leave out, and thou mayest not measure it, because it was given to the nations, and the holy city they shall tread down forty-two months;
3and I will give to My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy days, a thousand, two hundred, sixty, arrayed with sackcloth;
4these are the two olive [trees], and the two lamp-stands that before the God of the earth do stand;
I know that everyone likes to ID the 2 witnesses as two literal people, but if you read this vision, it is a depiction of greater detail what will be going on to cause many more to give glory to the Lord. The two lampstands/two olive trees are to me Spirtual (purpose of) Israel (Rom 9/Gal 3/Zech 2:9-11, Zech 4/Rev 14:4/Ezek 44)
13and in that hour came a great earthquake, and the tenth of the city did fall, and killed in the earthquake were names of men — seven thousands, and the rest became affrighted, and they gave glory to the God of the heaven.
Just like Jesus walked the earth the first time and Called to those to Follow Him, He then sent them out. This pattern will be repeated, but this time those inital followers will be changed, in a twinkling. I say this boldly because of the accounts in Acts 1 & 2. And this will be so awesome because WE WILL ALL BE OF ONE MIND ABOUT THIS when this revealing (glory) happens.
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Post by matthew2423 on Nov 6, 2019 11:33:39 GMT -6
The reason why I take Revelation in a literal-physical manner is because I have autism, and as a person with autism, I am prone to take the prophecies of Revelation (such as the new heaven and the new earth) in a literal-physical manner. Plus, I would probably need to explain what people mean by literal-spiritual because due to my autism, I may assume that it is physical. Some people may equate spiritual to a symbolic meaning, and that confuses me. So that’s why I believe that Revelation discusses prophecy in a literal-physical manner is because of my disabilities, not strictly because of worldview. It’s just part of my nature to assume a literal and a physical meaning to just about everything, even when it’s supposed to be an expression or a symbol. So, if you say, “The sky is falling,” I might think that the literal sky above the earth is literally falling! So, sorry if I may have caused anybody any trouble by continuing to insist that Revelation is a literal and physical prophecy. It’s part of who I am as a person with autism and special needs in general.
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Post by venge on Nov 6, 2019 16:49:54 GMT -6
The reason why I take Revelation in a literal-physical manner is because I have autism, and as a person with autism, I am prone to take the prophecies of Revelation (such as the new heaven and the new earth) in a literal-physical manner. Plus, I would probably need to explain what people mean by literal-spiritual because due to my autism, I may assume that it is physical. Some people may equate spiritual to a symbolic meaning, and that confuses me. So that’s why I believe that Revelation discusses prophecy in a literal-physical manner is because of my disabilities, not strictly because of worldview. It’s just part of my nature to assume a literal and a physical meaning to just about everything, even when it’s supposed to be an expression or a symbol. So, if you say, “The sky is falling,” I might think that the literal sky above the earth is literally falling! So, sorry if I may have caused anybody any trouble by continuing to insist that Revelation is a literal and physical prophecy. It’s part of who I am as a person with autism and special needs in general. No need to apologize. Many here see it like you, others see it differently like myself. Example: You see a mountain burning in fire cast into the sea destroying sea life. That reads it literally. Yet I don’t know one person who says it’s a mountain. They say asteroid or meteorite. Yet, the Bible has consistently shown a mountain being tossed into the sea is not an asteroid or meteorite. It shows it as a great city/kingdom being destroyed never to be built again. The text says stars fall and yet no one takes that literally. They say it’s meteorites. But the word is stars. Why do some guess at what it is when I’m using scripture to interpret scripture and not guessing. |
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Post by disciple4life on Nov 6, 2019 18:15:03 GMT -6
BSG - Moses was shown a literal spiritual Temple and told to replicate what he saw. So to some point I would agree here that the city John saw, being measurable was another example of something literally spiritual, explained in the physical. Other examples are animals. Notice how many angels are described "like a bear", "like a lion" and so on. The physical is a reflection of sort of the heavenly. (My have we strayed from the topic, but I'm loving this conversation) Nat - the Bible is a flashlight! It is not a lamp (physically), not a light (physically) but metaphorically guides the steps of those that would follow the Word I agree my friend. I can't remember who said it, but some prophecies have dual fulfillment, and some passages can be both literal and also have a symbolic meaning. I also know that there are "types" - or foreshadows. One person, thing or event that points to another.
I will say that I think it's important to note that the passage you used here - "Your word is a light unto my feet and a lamp unto my path." Is from Psalms, which is poetry. ;-)
The problems come when people take history or the gospels, - like the words of Christ which were not parables, and then make them symbolic when it's not warranted.
This is a gross disregard for Biblical interpretation, and the result is replacement theology. I'm not accusing anyone of that, it's just a classic example. They disregard much of end times things, because instead of taking the plain literal meaning of what the text plainly says, they insist that all the passages that were to Jacob/ Israel are now to the church, and the promises and roles of Israel have been transferred on to the church.
Very dangerous and disturbing because prophecy occurs more than any other doctrine in the entire Bible, in over 16 books. *** And, it's one thing to simply say "Oh, that was apocalyptic literature, or oh, that was Daniel, which was prophecy, but I Thessalonians was not. Nor was the Gospels, and Christ's sermon on the mount, or the Olivette Discourse, which are the primary passages for the rapture and second coming - whatever that is, because we sure can't get consensus on that.
There are at least 3 dangers of making things symbolic when the text does not warrant it 1. is that everything can be twisted by saying it's symbolic - Hell is symbolic. Rob Bell ring a bell??? 2. The other huge danger is that when throw out hermeneutics - I'm not saying anyone is doing that here, but in general, if we make things symbolic then who is to say what it symbolizes. To one the two witnesses are mere symbols, or the anti-Christ, or the temple, but there is no way to weigh/ test, one person's private understanding of what the cross symbolizes, or the temple, etc. 3. Without a standard - where does it end.
I'm learning so much from you all - though I'm still confused as to literal physical vs literal spiritual. Maybe @bsg or Natalie or mike can explain that to me.
I could be mistaken, and I don't mean to derail the discussion, but I thought that "all those who came before" as someone said, those who have died, are not in heaven yet, but are in Sheol, the place of the dead ?? And then, at the Harpazo, those who have died/ are 'asleep' in Christ will rise first, and then we will be caught up off earth to meet Christ in the sky. So it's like purgatory in that it's a waiting place, but not the Catholic doctrine that people can change their 'destination on their ticket' based on good works of living relatives.
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Post by Natalie on Nov 6, 2019 18:30:44 GMT -6
disciple4life...I am not sure what's meant by literal physical and literal spiritual either. To me it's either physical (you can experience it with your senses), spiritual (a thing like an earthquake or tree or a river actually is not that thing but represents something else) or it's something that exists in the spiritual realm (God, angels, demons, God's temple, etc).
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Post by Natalie on Nov 6, 2019 18:35:54 GMT -6
Another thought for my previous post....
By literal I mean that if the text says there are two witnesses who are killed and lying in the street of Jerusalem...then there are physically two dead people lying in the street. Spiritual is if you would say the two people are Love and Truth and today's post Christian culture has done away with them.
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Post by mike on Nov 6, 2019 21:40:31 GMT -6
When God showed Moses the heavenly tabernacle and said Exodus 25:9 & Hebrews 8:5 was Moses shown a 'brick & mortar' temple?
Was this allegorical?
I believe he was shown exactly what is quoted,
a pattern.
So it's not actually physical
It's not something representing something else.
I hope that can help explain literal spiritual a bit better from my perspective
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Post by matthew2423 on Nov 7, 2019 7:24:22 GMT -6
Thanks y’all for helping to explain this stuff to me. When I encounter new viewpoints on Revelation, I always like to stick to what I believe is biblical. Now, to steer this conversation back to the original topic of this thread, I was thinking about what we would do on earth in our resurrected bodies during the Tribulation. I personally think that it could be a lot like Jesus’ 40 days that He spent on earth following His resurrection and also with the beginning of the early Church in Jerusalem. Now, here’s a question for y’all, do you think that we will do our usual activities in our resurrected bodies that we did pre-Rapture during the Tribulation, or are we going to be solely and completely focused on spreading the gospel to those that are lost during the Tribulation? I am in the Boy Scouts as an adult leader, I am a player-announcer in a sports league for people with special needs, I watch sports on TV, and I’m involved in church, so I was wondering that if the Rapture involves the raising of people from the dead and us being transformed and staying on the earth, I was just wondering if I could continue the activities listed during the Tribulation in my resurrection body that I am doing now before the Rapture.
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Post by mike on Nov 7, 2019 8:36:28 GMT -6
Thanks y’all for helping to explain this stuff to me. When I encounter new viewpoints on Revelation, I always like to stick to what I believe is biblical. Now, to steer this conversation back to the original topic of this thread, I was thinking about what we would do on earth in our resurrected bodies during the Tribulation. I personally think that it could be a lot like Jesus’ 40 days that He spent on earth following His resurrection and also with the beginning of the early Church in Jerusalem. Now, here’s a question for y’all, do you think that we will do our usual activities in our resurrected bodies that we did pre-Rapture during the Tribulation, or are we going to be solely and completely focused on spreading the gospel to those that are lost during the Tribulation? I am in the Boy Scouts as an adult leader, I am a player-announcer in a sports league for people with special needs, I watch sports on TV, and I’m involved in church, so I was wondering that if the Rapture involves the raising of people from the dead and us being transformed and staying on the earth, I was just wondering if I could continue the activities listed during the Tribulation in my resurrection body that I am doing now before the Rapture. So IF we were to be here during the Trib (or Great Trib - both of which presume a transformation separate from and prior to the 2nd coming) some fairly obvious things need to be overcome. For example the dead will live again. How would my neighbor react to seeing my brother (who passed a few years ago)? How would unbelieving family members respond to a passed loved one? Would they recognize the resurrected at all? Would they simply present themselves with their new names?
I think if we can get passed millions of people (dont forget Paul, Peter, John, James, James the Lords brother...) who would certainly attest of what is happening. I cant imagine or fathom that happening that way. All of a sudden, at the rapture millions and millions either go missing (gone from the planet into 'heaven' - not just into the air) or millions and millions of our brothers/sisters suddenly re-populate the earth. |
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Post by disciple4life on Nov 7, 2019 9:24:24 GMT -6
Hello matthew2423 As you can see, there are different views about the rapture and what that looks like. Some Think we will be here on Earth with Christ and others believe we will be in the clouds with Christ. I think it's safe to say we agree that the resurrected saints who have died before will be together with Us- "those who are alive and remain. At least that's what the text explicitly says. But your question is assuming the resurrection/rapture happens at the beginning of the tribulation. For just a moment if we try to think differently, and imagine the rapture happens at the middle of the Tribulation (mid trib) then the bodies of those who died before would not be resurrected yet. So - for example- if the two witnesses show up breathing fire in Jerusalem and instagram melts down and we see a peace treaty with many nations and Israel, and construction starts on the third temple- we can be assured the Tribulation has started- and a lot of us proclaim we were wrong. ;-) but no glorified bodies for us and the dead Christians are not resurrected. Its time to become a goat farmer and go off the grid. Hope that makes sense. It means the wise bridesmaids are buying cases and cases of denatured alcohol , kerosene and powdered milk.😉🤔 |
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Post by venge on Nov 7, 2019 11:49:44 GMT -6
Hello matthew2423 As you can see, there are different views about the rapture and what that looks like. Some Think we will be here on Earth with Christ and others believe we will be in the clouds with Christ. I think it's safe to say we agree that the resurrected saints who have died before will be together with Us- "those who are alive and remain. At least that's what the text explicitly says. But your question is assuming the resurrection/rapture happens at the beginning of the tribulation. For just a moment if we try to think differently, and imagine the rapture happens at the middle of the Tribulation (mid trib) then the bodies of those who died before would not be resurrected yet. So - for example- if the two witnesses show up breathing fire in Jerusalem and instagram melts down and we see a peace treaty with many nations and Israel, and construction starts on the third temple- we can be assured the Tribulation has started- and a lot of us proclaim we were wrong. ;-) but no glorified bodies for us and the dead Christians are not resurrected. Its time to become a goat farmer and go off the grid. Hope that makes sense. It means the wise bridesmaids are buying cases and cases of denatured alcohol , kerosene and powdered milk.😉🤔 Hermeneutics would suggest something fanciful is probably not literal especially if it is proved with scripture. The case with the witnesses breathing fire, fanciful, is shown in biblical text to represent their words. As fire burns and destroys, their words cause those that hear them and are against them to be destroyed as fire destroys. Not physically killed or slain but put down with truth. Look at Jeremiah 5:14 for example This was my previous point. OT scripture explains Revelation |
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Post by matthew2423 on Nov 7, 2019 14:45:08 GMT -6
Hello y’all!
So, mike, don’t overlook the fact that, according to 1 Thessalonians 4:17, “Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them (the resurrected saints) in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord.” (HCSB, my annotation added). So, IF AND ONLY IF WE STAY ON EARTH, the amount of resurrected saints will be enormous on the earth. This includes both the resurrected dead as well as those transformed. So, even though the resurrection of the believing dead is an awesome thing, let’s not forget that the living saints will be transformed on the earth. My worries are if my dad, who is not really religious, will recognize me in my resurrected body, and if any unbelieving friends will recognize me. So, question for you mike and venge, who do you think the heavenly armies on white horses wearing white linen are, according to Revelation 19:14, IF we stay on the earth during the Tribulation or Great Tribulation? My understanding before I started to think that the Church will stay on earth with Christ post-Rapture was that these are raptured believers. So, who are these armies then? Are they angels or spirits? What are they?
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