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Post by kjs on May 1, 2019 8:33:26 GMT -6
The website you point to is nothing but fantasy. (and not even good fantasy because it does NOT follow the Daniel Text!!!!)
First the Years are completely off The rebellion started in year 66 AD. There was NO Covenant signed, confirmed, or enlarged with the Jewish people at any time during that time. By the year 68, resistance in the northern part of the province had been eradicated and the Romans turned their full attention to the subjugation of Jerusalem. By the year 70, the attackers had breached Jerusalem's outer walls and began a systematic ransacking of the city. The assault culminated in the burning and destruction of the Temple that served as the center of Judaism.
Dan 9:27b "...and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate..." makes clear that "someone" shall make the temple desolate....
Matt. 24:15 -- Jesus says ".... So when you see the desolating sacrilege spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place..." (THE SACKING OF THE CITY AND THE DESTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE did Not have anything "STANDING"
The rebellion sputtered on for another three years and was finally extinguished in 73 AD with the fall of the various pockets of resistance including the stronghold at Masada.
So the entire rebellion lasted seven to eight years -- depending on when you count the first portion of the rebellion.
NO AGREEMENT between Roman, Roman's Army took place before the destruction of the City and Temple -- in 70AD (after all the said destruction had to happen AFTER the 69th week AND BEFORE the 70th week.
Read the text again .....
26 After the sixty-two weeks the Anointed One[d] shall be cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince who shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and its end shall be with a flood, and even to the end shall be war; desolations are determined.
The 70th Week DOES NOT START UNTIL AFTER the destruction of the City and Sanctuary......
This fantasy website puts the destruction of the city and the sanctuary WITHIN the 70th week!
IT appears in my opinion that "SOMEONE" simply found some Around 7 year time period and INSERT a flawed theory of interpreting Daniel.
If you (or anyone else) is going to offer theories .... PLEASE stick with the scriptures!!!!
In this case the destruction of City and Sanctuary HAPPENS BEFORE the start of the 70th week.
Dan. 9 "27 He shall make a firm covenant with many for one week:..." NOTICE HOW THE 70th week is mentioned AFTER the destruction!
AND AS WE ALL KNOW ............
Until 1948 there was not a country of Israel to make a covenant with.... So it (70th week) MUST BE a future event...............
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Post by Natalie on May 1, 2019 8:48:22 GMT -6
so I forgot we were talking about this topic. I ask to all for the sake of sakes, why does any of Revelation HAVE to match Daniel? And, please show me where the exact matches between Daniel and Rev.. I do know that Ch 12 of Daniel DOES refer to the End. And those rising to eternal life and those to everlasting contempt FITS Ch 20 of Rev. Other than that, help me out. I want a lesson here. There are similarities between Daniel 7 and Revelation 13.
I can't show you exact matches other than 7 and 12. The way I see it...the book of Revelation brings together the end times prophecies sprinkled through the OT; it puts them in order. And because I think the 70th week is yet to come and the focus is for Israel, I see Rev as explaining the 70th week.
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Post by venge on May 2, 2019 11:31:09 GMT -6
I don’t know what to say but my issue is this, which hasn’t been answered:
“All these are valid points and I have read some of them before. If the 70 weeks are completed, why is there 42 months left in Revelation? The only place we see 42 months that I recall is Daniel, half of a week. If it is not related to Daniel then where?”
So I get the idea of the 70th week could be done. I accept that a 2k year gap is odd. But how do you take 42 months of Revelation as not linked to Daniels 70th week. It is 1260 days. It is the times, time and a half. And that is mentioned twice in Rev 12. Why would that be mentioned twice if it’s past? That doesn’t make sense. So in reality, non of the ideas here are infallible. We all got questions and holes.
Here is a fact. John wrote it about 96AD after Jerusalems fall.
That is backed up by 2 outside sources that date the Roman emperor at the time he wrote it. Placing it as prophecy not related to Jerusalem’s fall in 70AD.
So, why is there 1260 days in Rev if the 70th week is done?
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Post by venge on May 2, 2019 11:41:15 GMT -6
I should add, my opinion, the only thing I can logically see is this:
Christ said he came during the day of the Lord to preach the good news. He stopped short finishing the text. Why?
He left the part that said ...and the day of vengeance! If the day of the Lord comprises both good news and vengeance and only 1 was complete.....get where I’m going?
Christ ministered for around 3-3.5 years. Leaving close to that the remaining 3.. Does that have to be a literal week? Does it have to be the 70th week?
Didn’t Christ say in one parable that he was on a long journey but he would return and to keep his vineyard tilled?
2k years could be a journey 🤪
And when he returns, will he find faith on the earth?
So there is definitely a long wait implied from going out to all nations teaching to eventually not much faith. Definitely implies a very long time.
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Post by boraddict on May 2, 2019 12:46:09 GMT -6
venge , an interesting side-note to your posting is that a type for the 2,000 years is the 2 days that the Savior spent with the Samaritans (John 4:40), and of course the Samaritans are a remnant of Ephraim. Thus, the type shows that the Savior spent the past 2,000 years with the remnant of Ephraim (the church).
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Post by venge on May 2, 2019 12:59:38 GMT -6
venge , an interesting side-note to your posting is that a type for the 2,000 years is the 2 days that the Savior spent with the Samaritans (John 4:40), and of course the Samaritans are a remnant of Ephraim. Thus, the type shows that the Savior spent the past 2,000 years with the remnant of Ephraim (the church). Bora, That is a stretch. I don’t see any scripture backing up that notion. |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on May 2, 2019 13:29:11 GMT -6
first venge, he said: Why would that be mentioned twice if it’s past? That doesn’t make sense. My thoughts on this is that Rev 12 is giving us a summary, even ch 13. We don't really know EXACTLY but I view it as a combo of past present and future vision. I know that you are not a Rev 12 Sign of Sept 23rd kinda guy, but let's just say it is a Marker of that chapter that has a blanket meaning. The Sign does represent Jesus as He came the first time, which one could say is His Tabernacling with us. But the Sign also represents when a person becomes Born Again. Either way, the enemy is not happy with this because now man has a WAY back into the Kingdom from which he was cast because of Adam. It also occurred in the constellations, which to the watcher is significant because it is proclaiming Tabernacling once again. Does it mean the start of anything? We have yet to get a single match to anything since that event. Is it insignificant? I know you think so right now venge, which is where the Lord has you for many reasons, but it could be that as we have a few more years go by we will look back and start to verify it better. I have faith in that. now, kjs, you just said something that I need clarifiiction: First off, know that I ride the reed in the wind on the 70th week and do not like to debate it because it is a gut feeling inside I have and can't let go. However, you said something that seem to go counter to the consensus on the 70th week events: you said: The 70th Week DOES NOT START UNTIL AFTER the destruction of the City and Sanctuary...… But are not the 70th week proponents looking to see some abominable thing in the sanctuary in the middle of the week? It seems to me according to Ch 11 of Rev, the city suffers damage after a 3 1/2 period, because we are told it is the place where they crucified Him. Just needing some clarification. Ok Natalie, that gives me a place to go, thanks! and boraddict, I appreciate your Judah/Ephraim opinion. I had a post for you right away and it got erased and I ran out of time. I DO believe that there is something very significant to the split of the two kingdoms prior to Christ's 1st Coming. It happened according to my Bible timeline in 931 BC. This is exactly 19 periods of 49 before the turn of the century to AD. 49 is 7 Sevens. This type of math floats thruout the OT and beyond really but our starting points vary by what set of glasses we wear. The point being for me is the Kingdoms are STILL split. Yet this time we have New Covenant Israel, and physical Judah. So I guess I am agreeing with you? I didn't think to reference Ephraim. |
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Post by Natalie on May 2, 2019 13:50:45 GMT -6
I'm not KJ, but I seem to see it the same way as he does ... the destruction of the city and sanctuary mentioned in Daniel 9 would be the city and sanctuary existing when Messiah is cut off. That happened in 70AD. So, the 70th week is after that. There will have to be another sanctuary built that will have the abomination take place.
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Post by Natalie on May 2, 2019 13:53:05 GMT -6
Here is a list of OT references in the book of Revelation for those who may have not seen it before. It was put together by Dr. Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum (who wrote Footsteps of the Messiah). Some of the references are really clear and some I found a bit vague, but I think overall it's a really good resource.
ETA: clarifying my comment on vague...There are verses in the OT that are similar to things that take place in Rev but it's not the same thing. For example, the sealing of the 144,000 in chapter twelve compared to a sealing of God's people to save the remnant in Ezekiel 9. Similar actions but not the same event. I hope that makes sense.
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Post by kjs on May 2, 2019 16:09:17 GMT -6
I'm not KJ, but I seem to see it the same way as he does ... the destruction of the city and sanctuary mentioned in Daniel 9 would be the city and sanctuary existing when Messiah is cut off. That happened in 70AD. So, the 70th week is after that. There will have to be another sanctuary built that will have the abomination take place.
Natalie stated it well enough; but I will try to be very clear (because it gets kind of confusing)
Please note everything being discussed is Daniel 9 here (or the 70th week prophecy) .....
26 After the sixty-two weeks the Anointed One shall be cut off, and shall have nothing:
and the people of the prince who shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;
and its end shall be with a flood, and even to the end shall be war; desolations are determined.
Taking verse 26 and trying to dissect it -- First remember there are 70 Weeks (or 70 - 7 Year periods) being discussed in this prophecy....
After the sixty-two weeks the Anointed One shall be cut off, and shall have nothing:
Verse 25 accounts for the first seven weeks (49 years) and 62 Weeks (434 Years) -- and verse 26 simply refers back to the last mention number of weeks -- or 62 (or a total of 483 years) Please remember only 490 years prophesied.
The Anointed One (most of us believe this is Jesus Christ) -- dies (that is the cut off part) -- the have nothing part is seen in either two ways -- one way is saying he will have no offspring (most likely this is the best interpretation) -- the other way is -- is have no property or standing -- when he is cut off.
the people of the prince .... shall destroy the city and the sanctuary (not going to argue who this "prince is" -- simply to say his people do the destroying of City and Sanctuary. (all of this destruction occurs AFTER the 69th week but BEFORE the 70th week -- how do we know this ... verse 26 tells us it is after the 69th week and verse 27 tells us there is
one week remaining -- which does NOT start until some covenant is enlarged / confirmed / enacted (there is many theories on this -- so just simply will say Israel we make / expand / reaffirm a covenant with someone.)
AND Its end (what is being ended -- the city destruction) and will finish in war (and scattering) {a state of complete emptiness or destruction - anguished misery or loneliness} The People of Israel -- are going into complete emptiness until -- God's plan determines it is over -- WE believe that is 1948.
Next we have the start of the Final week (the 70th week) in verse 27.....
27 He shall make a firm covenant with many for one week:
and in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease;
and on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate;
and even to the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out on the desolate.
This tells us the 70th week starts (goes into affect) when some type of covenant is made with the People of Israel ...
Whom ever makes that covenant will break it at "MID_WEEK" -- or (3 1/2 years) and the breakage will because the "WHO"
stopped the sacrifice and the offering -- which does imply that at some point the sacrifice and the offering had to have started again
which means because these events (the sacrifice and the offering) happen in the temple -- means the temple has to be rebuilt.
The wing of abominations means -- something even "worse" then the Zeus Statue and the slaughtered Pig -- will happen (and yes many people take the Revelation Account and fit it in here) -- maybe it is -- maybe it is not..... At some point in all this the FULL END will occur --- of the FINISH.....
SO Yes -- based on scripture of the 70th week prophecy .... the destruction of Temple (and Jerusalem) happens AFTER week 69 but BEFORE week 70.....
How can that be? It is one of the mysteries of God ......
OR God and Daniel are Liars and -- no one should listen to them at all........
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Post by boraddict on May 2, 2019 16:58:46 GMT -6
venge , an interesting side-note to your posting is that a type for the 2,000 years is the 2 days that the Savior spent with the Samaritans (John 4:40), and of course the Samaritans are a remnant of Ephraim. Thus, the type shows that the Savior spent the past 2,000 years with the remnant of Ephraim (the church). Bora, That is a stretch. I don’t see any scripture backing up that notion. What part was a stretch? As you know, northern Israel that was the ten tribes was taken and then some were brought back and those are called the Samaritans. Northern Israel was Ephraim, thus, the Samaritans descend from Ephraim. Since the church is of the house of Israel but not Judah, then the church is represented as Ephraim. |
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Post by venge on May 3, 2019 6:51:41 GMT -6
Bora, That is a stretch. I don’t see any scripture backing up that notion. What part was a stretch? As you know, northern Israel that was the ten tribes was taken and then some were brought back and those are called the Samaritans. Northern Israel was Ephraim, thus, the Samaritans descend from Ephraim. Since the church is of the house of Israel but not Judah, then the church is represented as Ephraim. when you said a type of the 2000 years is 2 days. I agree on the Ephraim possibility |
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Post by boraddict on May 3, 2019 9:19:13 GMT -6
What part was a stretch? As you know, northern Israel that was the ten tribes was taken and then some were brought back and those are called the Samaritans. Northern Israel was Ephraim, thus, the Samaritans descend from Ephraim. Since the church is of the house of Israel but not Judah, then the church is represented as Ephraim. when you said a type of the 2000 years is 2 days. I agree on the Ephraim possibility Ah, Yes. The Ephraim thing is relatively good and the 2 day thing is a stretch. I agree and had hoped to find supporting evidence but have not except the order of events as follows: Jesus in Jerusalem (John 2:14-3:21) Jesus in Judea (John 3:22 - 4:2) Jesus in Samaria (John 4:3-42) Jesus in Galilee (John 4:43-54) Jesus in Jerusalem (John 5:1-47) According to this chiasmus the following appears to exist: Jesus in Jerusalem (representing the atonement) Jesus in the land of Judah (Early church construction)
Jesus in the land of Ephraim (2 days representing 2,000 years)
Jesus in the land of Ephraim (ending church construction)
Jesus in Jerusalem (the return)
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Post by williaml on May 3, 2019 12:04:38 GMT -6
Very good information williaml (is that an "I" or an "L" at the end of your name?). Question - so if that sequence fulfills Dan 9:26-27 and there is no 70th week to be fulfilled how do you 1. view the roughly 2000 yrs "gap" between that event and today? (I'm thinking basically no different, we are waiting either way) 2. view the events of our time? Do you believe other OT prophecies have been fulfilled already such as Psalm 83, Isa 17, Eze 38-39 and others? 3. Is there still a 7 yr sequence to be fulfilled from Revelation? apologies for the late response, had some car troubles. That is WilliamL, or should be. 1) Since Daniel 9:24-27 was all fulfilled in the first century A.D., there is no gap to consider thereafter. The prophecy was only given for "thy [Daniel's] people Israel," and has nothing to do with the Church. 2) Some OT prophecies such as this one have been fulfilled, others not. Psalm 83 was not a prophecy at all, but rather a recitation of events in the Persian era, as my post on that topic showed. Isaiah 17 and Ezekiel 38-39 and many other OT prophecies are still to be fulfilled. Such as Daniel 12:11, which is the prophecy Jesus was quoting in Matthew 24:15 when speaking about the "Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet." 3) No 7-year sequence is mentioned anywhere for the End Times. The 1260 days is mentioned many times in both Revelation and Daniel, and that period is yet future. Explained here: www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1449-the-1260-days/ |
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Post by williaml on May 3, 2019 12:09:23 GMT -6
All these are valid points and I have read some of them before. If the 70 weeks are completed, why is there 42 months left in Revelation? The only place we see 42 months that I recall is Daniel, half of a week. If it is not related to Daniel then where? Answered in part above. There is no "left" for the 42 months, because they have nothing to do with the 70th week of Daniel 9. Those who say so cannot provide any demonstrable End Time prophecy that mentions a 7 year period. |
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