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Post by boraddict on Apr 11, 2019 22:26:55 GMT -6
Very compelling, Joel . One thing I found very interesting is the body language in the picture of Macron and Pope Francis. You can see clearly who is "owning" the power. The first paragraph...
I must disagree. Why do people believe the man of sin comes from Europe? And #5...
Even as a futurist, I'm not a believer in Daniel's 70th week. Daniel 9:26 proves nothing about the man of sin being Roman or European. In my view, there's not one verse of prophecy that points to Rome or the EU. Every nation mentioned in end-time prophecy is Arab, Persian, and Islamic today. Sounds like your belief is in line with schooldad3. |
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Post by Natalie on Apr 12, 2019 7:27:26 GMT -6
Jamie, welcome to Unsealed!
I think people see the AC coming from Europe because of the visions in Daniel of the coming kingdoms. The one mentioned before Christ's Kingdome is believed to be Rome.
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Post by boraddict on Apr 12, 2019 8:52:10 GMT -6
Sounds like your belief is in line with schooldad3.
Why would the prophecy of “seventy weeks indicate anything but 70 sequential weeks? Why would this biblical time period start, then stop at what the experts call a 'gap,' and then start up again some 2000 years later? If that's the case then the week following the 69th week really isn't the 70th week since there's a 2000 year gap! The passage doesn't mention anything about tribulation, an anti-Christ, or the rebuilding of a temple, or animal sacrifices. The passage in verse 25 and 26 speak about the Messiah, his sacrifice, and the new covenant. So grammatically speaking it makes no sense that verse 27 would suddenly completely change into speaking about the anti-Christ. The Messiah being “cut off" is referring to Christ’s death.
The passage can be confusing, I believe it foretells the date of the Messiah’s death. Here's is the math.
(7 weeks)(7 days in a week) + (62 weeks)(7 days in a week) = 483 days (one day = one prophetic year) = 483 years.
483 years X 360 days in the Persian calendar (the one used at the time of this prophecy) = 173,880 days.
173,880 days / 365.25 days in a modern calendar = 476 years in a modern calendar.
444 BC is the year King Artaxerxes I of Persia sends Nehemiah to rebuild Jerusalem (Nehemiah 2:1 says it was in his 20th year and Artaxerxes I reigned from 465 to 424 so 444 BC would be the 20th year of his reign using the ascension year system of dating).
444 BC – 476 years = 32 AD + 1 year because there is no year zero going from BC to AD = 33 AD (the year of Christ’s crucifixion, “an anointed one shall be cut off”).Hi jamie. Your time line has several errors the first of which is the calculation of the years. That is, occasionally the 360 day Hebrew calendar was adjusted by 30 days so that the barley would always be aviv (ripe) in the month of the Passover. So while most years were 360 days there was an occasional year that was 390 days. Consequently our calendar year of 365.25 days matches their 360/390 (combination calendar) days and the correction to your calculation would be as follows: 483 years X 360 days (not counting the occasional 13th month of 30 days that adjusts for the aviv) in the Persian (Hebrew) calendar (the one used at the time of this prophecy) = 173,880 days. 173,880 days / 365.25 days in a modern calendar = 476 years in a modern calendar. (A calculation that excludes 84 aviv, 13 month, adjustments totaling 7 years.)Therefore, in my opinion, the word years in the prophecy means years as in revolutions around the sun and no further calculation equating months from one calendar to another is necessary. In fact, the transfer of days from one calendar to another in which the occasional 13 month is removed as you have done in your calculations throws the prophecy off by seven years rendering the remainder of your analysis in error. Since your analysis is in error then your assumption may also be in error to wit:
"I believe it foretells the date of the Messiah’s death. Here's is the math."
Having said that, I do agree that the prophecy foretells the date of the Savior's death; however, I prefer the method of isolating that date first, and then applying the prophecy. Since all prophecy has multiple applications then all of Daniel's work applies to our period of time here in the latter days. |
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Post by kjs on Apr 12, 2019 9:16:54 GMT -6
Sounds like your belief is in line with schooldad3.
Why would the prophecy of “seventy weeks indicate anything but 70 sequential weeks? Why would this biblical time period start, then stop at what the experts call a 'gap,' and then start up again some 2000 years later? If that's the case then the week following the 69th week really isn't the 70th week since there's a 2000 year gap! The passage doesn't mention anything about tribulation, an anti-Christ, or the rebuilding of a temple, or animal sacrifices. The passage in verse 25 and 26 speak about the Messiah, his sacrifice, and the new covenant. So grammatically speaking it makes no sense that verse 27 would suddenly completely change into speaking about the anti-Christ. The Messiah being “cut off" is referring to Christ’s death.
The passage can be confusing, I believe it foretells the date of the Messiah’s death. Here's is the math.
(7 weeks)(7 days in a week) + (62 weeks)(7 days in a week) = 483 days (one day = one prophetic year) = 483 years.
483 years X 360 days in the Persian calendar (the one used at the time of this prophecy) = 173,880 days.
173,880 days / 365.25 days in a modern calendar = 476 years in a modern calendar.
444 BC is the year King Artaxerxes I of Persia sends Nehemiah to rebuild Jerusalem (Nehemiah 2:1 says it was in his 20th year and Artaxerxes I reigned from 465 to 424 so 444 BC would be the 20th year of his reign using the ascension year system of dating).
444 BC – 476 years = 32 AD + 1 year because there is no year zero going from BC to AD = 33 AD (the year of Christ’s crucifixion, “an anointed one shall be cut off”).You cannot have it both ways (which it seems you are doing)......
Either -- something happen to "stop the count down" in the midst of verse 26
26 After the sixty-two weeks the Anointed One shall be cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince who shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and its end shall be with a flood, and even to the end shall be war; desolations are determined.
PLEASE NOTE: Mid-verse 26 has the city and sanctuary destroyed!!!! which is AFTER the 69th week and AFTER the "cut off"
-- so most scholars Add an "Unexplained Gap" of what the "count seems to have stopped" -- without the Gap -- we have to mark it as a FAILED Prophecy.
Or the Countdown continued -- but it took around 37 years before the sanctuary was destroyed. (not the 7 remaining weeks) If we ignore for a bit the fact that the destruction of the sanctuary was 37 years after the anointed one was "cut off" ... one still has the entire verse 27 "to fit" into place..... (and that definitely did not happen in 70AD).
So based on your theory -- either the 70 weeks of year prophecy FAILED because -- there is an unexplained "GAP" between mid-verse 26 and the finishing verses.
Or the prophecy FAILED because it did not complete as laid out in the TEXT (from mid-verse 26 thru the end) because it took over 37 years (more than the allotted 1 week of years [or 7 years])
Either scenario you are claiming The Prophecy Given to Daniel failed......
Which makes Daniel a False Prophet and makes Gabriel (God's messenger ) a Liar and eventually God a Liar as well.
No -- cannot buy that scenario.....
What I can buy is that "we" humans -- have not figured it all out yet -- but we can trust on Faith that eventually Daniel's Prophecy will complete as stated.
If we go that route (that the Prophecy will eventually complete)
Means we have the entire verse 27 to complete
27 He shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease; and on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate; and even to the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out on the desolate.
which means we still have 7 Years left to be completed.....(BECAUSE verse 27 tells us -- THAT SOMEONE will make a firm covenant ... for one week) -- which tells us the "70th" week is still a future event.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Apr 12, 2019 10:46:40 GMT -6
I have come to believe this too, jamie I no longer see a gap. 24“Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. (all of this is Jesus' fulfillment, ref. Isaiah 53) 25“So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. (this still referring to Jesus' 1st Coming) 26“Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. They will cut off the Messiah, even though they (Judah) were given the mandate to "bring in the Messiah" 27“And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate. This is the famous verse that causes the grief amongst Believers. I still believe this has to do with Jesus. The lower case pronouns I think is what people argue. But, to me, Jesus himself put an end to the need for sacrifice and grain offering. I believe He died in 33AD. He was killed in the 70th week, in the middle of it and was "cut off." I underlined the same situtations given two different description. There was a 40 year time for Judah to repent of this act of cutting Him off, and they did not and the 2nd Temple was destroyed. I have not found in Revelation any direct connection NOR and 7 Year (week) Tribulation/Wrath, with someone in the middle confirming a covenant. BUT I WILL NOT TRY TO PERSAUDE anyone to agree with me. I encourage everyone to keep studying for yourself, and challenge not only me, BUT ALSO those who are pro-70th week. The mandate for modern day Israel to do anything about bringing in the messiah is over with. Jesus came for ALL, and
18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already,(desolations are determined!) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.Based on the CURRENT situation with various groups of people, I ask, WHO are those that are denying Christ right now? Those who deny Christ do not have God either (according to John's epistles). The only place where the word anti-Christ is talked about is in the John Epistles. John will tell you those who would be of the anti-Christ mentality. I still believe there will be a Wrath, and I still believe there will be periods of time that coincide with how God has operated all thru the OT, in Sevens. |
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Post by kjs on Apr 12, 2019 11:26:43 GMT -6
I have come to believe this too, jamie I no longer see a gap. 24“Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. (all of this is Jesus' fulfillment, ref. Isaiah 53) 25“So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. (this still referring to Jesus' 1st Coming) 26“Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. They will cut off the Messiah, even though they (Judah) were given the mandate to "bring in the Messiah" 27“And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate. This is the famous verse that causes the grief amongst Believers. I still believe this has to do with Jesus. The lower case pronouns I think is what people argue. But, to me, Jesus himself put an end to the need for sacrifice and grain offering. I believe He died in 33AD. He was killed in the 70th week, in the middle of it and was "cut off." I underlined the same situtations given two different description. There was a 40 year time for Judah to repent of this act of cutting Him off, and they did not and the 2nd Temple was destroyed. I have not found in Revelation any direct connection NOR and 7 Year (week) Tribulation/Wrath, with someone in the middle confirming a covenant. BUT I WILL NOT TRY TO PERSAUDE anyone to agree with me. I encourage everyone to keep studying for yourself, and challenge not only me, BUT ALSO those who are pro-70th week. The mandate for modern day Israel to do anything about bringing in the messiah is over with. Jesus came for ALL, and
18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already,(desolations are determined!) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.Based on the CURRENT situation with various groups of people, I ask, WHO are those that are denying Christ right now? Those who deny Christ do not have God either (according to John's epistles). The only place where the word anti-Christ is talked about is in the John Epistles. John will tell you those who would be of the anti-Christ mentality. I still believe there will be a Wrath, and I still believe there will be periods of time that coincide with how God has operated all thru the OT, in Sevens. I will not argue with you about your thinking on the matter (it is just not that important)....
However, I would like to raise a concern that seems to be over looked by those who take the position that the "70th week has already been completed Or completed partially)
I am laying this out step by step - because I believe it shows where the issue is in the completion theory....
First here is what you say you believe ... I believe He died in 33AD. He was killed in the 70th week, in the middle of it and was "cut off." I underlined the same situations given two different description.
Before quoting the verses, I need to reiterate that Gabriel spoke of WEEKS of YEARS (will not get into all the math -- but "each week" represents 7 years)
We are told in verse 25 "...shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks..." -- For a grand total of 69 weeks -- at this point in the text AND ALWAYS remember the total count is 70 Weeks.
Verse 26 tells us "26 After the sixty-two weeks the Anointed One[d] shall be cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince who shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and its end shall be with a flood, and even to the end shall be war; desolations are determined."
Now whether one believes the "CUT OFF" happen in 28AD or 30AD or 33AD or 35AD -- does not matter at this point -- the point that matters is it was AFTER the 69th week (yes the text says after 62 weeks; but verse 24 makes clear that first it was 7 weeks and then 62 weeks -- for the grand total of 69) -- so sometime after the 69 week -- the Anointed One is cut off - and we ALL believe that refers to Jesus Christ Crucifixion.
NOW verse 26 finishes with "shall destroy the city and the sanctuary" -- most believe that refers with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD70
MANY, MANY people scratch their heads pointing out their is NO WAY to account for the amount of time between the crucifixion and the destruction of the city....
So either One must say this is a FAIL Prophecy ..... or that we just do not have a clear understanding of what is going on.....
BUT here is the real "clincher" -- if you will.....
VERSE 27 -- plainly says there is a WEEK --- that will start at the time of .....
"27 He shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease; and on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate; and even to the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out on the desolate."
THAT "WEEK" is the 70th Week -- because it is still in the same prophecy that was given to Daniel about the 70 weeks...... (and we seen the completion of 69 weeks already -- with one week remaining)
The point is either Daniel is a false prophet -- cause his timing appears way off --- OR -- How I view it .........
we simply do not understand how it all fits together .... BUT the LAST WEEK (the 70th) does NOT START until the "FIRM Covenant" starts.......
You have that 70th Week starting in verse 27 -- were the "cut off" happening in verse 26 (which is after 69 weeks)
So EITHER their is a gap (which most believe in) OR Gabriel and God cannot count cause the 70th week does not start until the covenant comes.
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Post by venge on Apr 12, 2019 17:15:01 GMT -6
I have come to believe this too, jamie I no longer see a gap. 24“Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. (all of this is Jesus' fulfillment, ref. Isaiah 53) 25“So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. (this still referring to Jesus' 1st Coming) 26“Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. They will cut off the Messiah, even though they (Judah) were given the mandate to "bring in the Messiah" 27“And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate. This is the famous verse that causes the grief amongst Believers. I still believe this has to do with Jesus. The lower case pronouns I think is what people argue. But, to me, Jesus himself put an end to the need for sacrifice and grain offering. I believe He died in 33AD. He was killed in the 70th week, in the middle of it and was "cut off." I underlined the same situtations given two different description. There was a 40 year time for Judah to repent of this act of cutting Him off, and they did not and the 2nd Temple was destroyed. I have not found in Revelation any direct connection NOR and 7 Year (week) Tribulation/Wrath, with someone in the middle confirming a covenant. BUT I WILL NOT TRY TO PERSAUDE anyone to agree with me. I encourage everyone to keep studying for yourself, and challenge not only me, BUT ALSO those who are pro-70th week. The mandate for modern day Israel to do anything about bringing in the messiah is over with. Jesus came for ALL, and
18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already,(desolations are determined!) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.Based on the CURRENT situation with various groups of people, I ask, WHO are those that are denying Christ right now? Those who deny Christ do not have God either (according to John's epistles). The only place where the word anti-Christ is talked about is in the John Epistles. John will tell you those who would be of the anti-Christ mentality. I still believe there will be a Wrath, and I still believe there will be periods of time that coincide with how God has operated all thru the OT, in Sevens. I will not argue with you about your thinking on the matter (it is just not that important)....
However, I would like to raise a concern that seems to be over looked by those who take the position that the "70th week has already been completed Or completed partially)
I am laying this out step by step - because I believe it shows where the issue is in the completion theory....
First here is what you say you believe ... I believe He died in 33AD. He was killed in the 70th week, in the middle of it and was "cut off." I underlined the same situations given two different description.
Before quoting the verses, I need to reiterate that Gabriel spoke of WEEKS of YEARS (will not get into all the math -- but "each week" represents 7 years)
We are told in verse 25 "...shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks..." -- For a grand total of 69 weeks -- at this point in the text AND ALWAYS remember the total count is 70 Weeks.
Verse 26 tells us "26 After the sixty-two weeks the Anointed One[d] shall be cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince who shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and its end shall be with a flood, and even to the end shall be war; desolations are determined."
Now whether one believes the "CUT OFF" happen in 28AD or 30AD or 33AD or 35AD -- does not matter at this point -- the point that matters is it was AFTER the 69th week (yes the text says after 62 weeks; but verse 24 makes clear that first it was 7 weeks and then 62 weeks -- for the grand total of 69) -- so sometime after the 69 week -- the Anointed One is cut off - and we ALL believe that refers to Jesus Christ Crucifixion.
NOW verse 26 finishes with "shall destroy the city and the sanctuary" -- most believe that refers with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD70
MANY, MANY people scratch their heads pointing out their is NO WAY to account for the amount of time between the crucifixion and the destruction of the city....
So either One must say this is a FAIL Prophecy ..... or that we just do not have a clear understanding of what is going on.....
BUT here is the real "clincher" -- if you will.....
VERSE 27 -- plainly says there is a WEEK --- that will start at the time of .....
"27 He shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease; and on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate; and even to the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out on the desolate."
THAT "WEEK" is the 70th Week -- because it is still in the same prophecy that was given to Daniel about the 70 weeks...... (and we seen the completion of 69 weeks already -- with one week remaining)
The point is either Daniel is a false prophet -- cause his timing appears way off --- OR -- How I view it .........
we simply do not understand how it all fits together .... BUT the LAST WEEK (the 70th) does NOT START until the "FIRM Covenant" starts.......
You have that 70th Week starting in verse 27 -- were the "cut off" happening in verse 26 (which is after 69 weeks)
So EITHER their is a gap (which most believe in) OR Gabriel and God cannot count cause the 70th week does not start until the covenant comes.
Ok Time for Venge to add his stuff =P Notice that Christ quoted Isaiah and in this he cut short the prophecy. Now I ATM hold onto a literal 7 year unfulfilled 70th week in the future. BUT, I do recognize there is some issues that I cannot resolve. So bare with me here. Jesus stated that this scripture was fulfilled right? He was only talking of the first part of the prophecy leaving the second half unfulfilled. If he spoke that then, does this start his evangelizing or was it at his baptism? The reason being, was this 1260 days from the time he started with this prophecy till his death? That would leave 1260 or the second part of the prophecy. I will post that below. Verse 2 is future Verse 6 is future Revelation only speaks of 1260 days; 42 months. It never speaks of more then that. Now, I realize we must look elsewhere line by line, here alittle there alittle but that references the entire 70th week. So is it possible Revelation references only the latter 1260 days and the first 1260 days was Jesus's time to evangelize? |
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Post by venge on Apr 12, 2019 17:41:15 GMT -6
Hey guys, I have written an article on the characteristics of the Antichrist and how Macron seems to fit the bill perfectly. Link to it is - www.christianevidence.net/2018/11/could-emmanuel-macron-be-anti-christ.htmlJust thought you might be interested in reading it. I know there is some good evidence for other candidates being the AC, but the evidence is nowhere near as convincing as it is for this man. Hope you like it! Some issues with what you wrote. 1. The number 666 will be related to the Antichrist and is possible to be computedScripture does not say it will be "computed" like gematria.
2.The Antichrist will be of Roman descent, rising out of the revived Roman Empire (the European Union) (Daniel 9:26)
None of that is scriptural. It is opinion based.
Josephus who was there during the attack in 70AD shows that the people that destroyed the city and the sanctuary were not Italians. They were Egyptian, Syrian and other middle eastern tribes that the Romans hired. There were very little Italians in that area, most of which were commanders but not the majority of the military. It is the people, that have a Prince that will come. It is not the kingdom (Rome).
Rome was the 6th head of the beast. John was told 5 have fallen, one is and the other has not yet come. From the 5 that were fallen in Johns time, 3 of the 4 of them are on the statue of Daniel. The 8th head which is the last kingdom is a makeup of those 3 kingdoms that had already fallen in Johns time. They were not a makeup of the one that "is" which was Rome. Do not forget there was still a 7th head. If Rome was revised, it would be the 7th head. Then who would be the 8th head? A revised (7th), revised again (8th) Roman Empire?
I should add, because Rome came after Greece does not make it that kingdom. Just as Egypt and Assyria came before Babylon, yet they are not in the statue yet they are part of the 7. So to is Rome a part of the 7 yet does not have to be the 8th. Alexander's kingdom was taken from him. It was never conquered. It split. There are verses to support that the 4 kingdoms it split into will come back in some form. North fighting against the south ring a bell?
3.The Antichrist will be a sexual pervert and show no regard "for the desire of women" (Daniel 11:37)
Dan 11:37 was explaining that he will show no regard for the desire of women which was to have the Christ child. That has always been the desire of women when Daniel wrote. There is no text that suggests it was sexual depravity.
4.The Antichrist is going to make, and sign, a seven-year peace treaty with Israel (Daniel 9:27).
Dan 9:27 does not say that. It states a peace covenant with many. We don't know who the peace is with and there is conjecture whether this is the man of sin or Christ is doing the peace agreement.
5. The Antichrist will change times and the law (Daniel 7:25)
He will try to, doesn't say he will succeed.
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Post by boraddict on Apr 12, 2019 20:09:43 GMT -6
I have come to believe this too, jamie I no longer see a gap. 24“Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. (all of this is Jesus' fulfillment, ref. Isaiah 53) 25“So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. (this still referring to Jesus' 1st Coming) 26“Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. They will cut off the Messiah, even though they (Judah) were given the mandate to "bring in the Messiah" 27“And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate. This is the famous verse that causes the grief amongst Believers. I still believe this has to do with Jesus. The lower case pronouns I think is what people argue. But, to me, Jesus himself put an end to the need for sacrifice and grain offering. I believe He died in 33AD. He was killed in the 70th week, in the middle of it and was "cut off." I underlined the same situtations given two different description. There was a 40 year time for Judah to repent of this act of cutting Him off, and they did not and the 2nd Temple was destroyed. I have not found in Revelation any direct connection NOR and 7 Year (week) Tribulation/Wrath, with someone in the middle confirming a covenant. BUT I WILL NOT TRY TO PERSAUDE anyone to agree with me. I encourage everyone to keep studying for yourself, and challenge not only me, BUT ALSO those who are pro-70th week. The mandate for modern day Israel to do anything about bringing in the messiah is over with. Jesus came for ALL, and
18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already,(desolations are determined!) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.Based on the CURRENT situation with various groups of people, I ask, WHO are those that are denying Christ right now? Those who deny Christ do not have God either (according to John's epistles). The only place where the word anti-Christ is talked about is in the John Epistles. John will tell you those who would be of the anti-Christ mentality. I still believe there will be a Wrath, and I still believe there will be periods of time that coincide with how God has operated all thru the OT, in Sevens. Barb, your posting reminded me of the theory that we are still under the era of the church. If that theory is correct then there is definitely no gaps in the time sequence; because, the era of the church that began with Peter continues to this day. It would be a type of chiasmus as follows: Lord Jesus is cut off The church is established and continues Lord Jesus returns Something like that! |
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Post by boraddict on Apr 12, 2019 20:32:22 GMT -6
I will not argue with you about your thinking on the matter (it is just not that important)....
However, I would like to raise a concern that seems to be over looked by those who take the position that the "70th week has already been completed Or completed partially)
I am laying this out step by step - because I believe it shows where the issue is in the completion theory.... First here is what you say you believe ... I believe He died in 33AD. He was killed in the 70th week, in the middle of it and was "cut off." I underlined the same situations given two different description.
Before quoting the verses, I need to reiterate that Gabriel spoke of WEEKS of YEARS (will not get into all the math -- but "each week" represents 7 years)
We are told in verse 25 "...shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks..." -- For a grand total of 69 weeks -- at this point in the text AND ALWAYS remember the total count is 70 Weeks.
Verse 26 tells us "26 After the sixty-two weeks the Anointed One[d] shall be cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince who shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and its end shall be with a flood, and even to the end shall be war; desolations are determined."
Now whether one believes the "CUT OFF" happen in 28AD or 30AD or 33AD or 35AD -- does not matter at this point -- the point that matters is it was AFTER the 69th week (yes the text says after 62 weeks; but verse 24 makes clear that first it was 7 weeks and then 62 weeks -- for the grand total of 69) -- so sometime after the 69 week -- the Anointed One is cut off - and we ALL believe that refers to Jesus Christ Crucifixion.
NOW verse 26 finishes with "shall destroy the city and the sanctuary" -- most believe that refers with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD70
MANY, MANY people scratch their heads pointing out their is NO WAY to account for the amount of time between the crucifixion and the destruction of the city....
So either One must say this is a FAIL Prophecy ..... or that we just do not have a clear understanding of what is going on.....
BUT here is the real "clincher" -- if you will.....
VERSE 27 -- plainly says there is a WEEK --- that will start at the time of .....
"27 He shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease; and on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate; and even to the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out on the desolate."
THAT "WEEK" is the 70th Week -- because it is still in the same prophecy that was given to Daniel about the 70 weeks...... (and we seen the completion of 69 weeks already -- with one week remaining)
The point is either Daniel is a false prophet -- cause his timing appears way off --- OR -- How I view it .........
we simply do not understand how it all fits together .... BUT the LAST WEEK (the 70th) does NOT START until the "FIRM Covenant" starts.......
You have that 70th Week starting in verse 27 -- were the "cut off" happening in verse 26 (which is after 69 weeks)
So EITHER their is a gap (which most believe in) OR Gabriel and God cannot count cause the 70th week does not start until the covenant comes.
kjs, your summation shows that the "one week" of Dan. 9:27 is the 7 years of tribulation. Am I following you correctly? |
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Post by venge on Apr 13, 2019 7:27:00 GMT -6
I will not argue with you about your thinking on the matter (it is just not that important)....
However, I would like to raise a concern that seems to be over looked by those who take the position that the "70th week has already been completed Or completed partially)
I am laying this out step by step - because I believe it shows where the issue is in the completion theory.... First here is what you say you believe ... I believe He died in 33AD. He was killed in the 70th week, in the middle of it and was "cut off." I underlined the same situations given two different description.
Before quoting the verses, I need to reiterate that Gabriel spoke of WEEKS of YEARS (will not get into all the math -- but "each week" represents 7 years)
We are told in verse 25 "...shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks..." -- For a grand total of 69 weeks -- at this point in the text AND ALWAYS remember the total count is 70 Weeks.
Verse 26 tells us "26 After the sixty-two weeks the Anointed One[d] shall be cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince who shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and its end shall be with a flood, and even to the end shall be war; desolations are determined."
Now whether one believes the "CUT OFF" happen in 28AD or 30AD or 33AD or 35AD -- does not matter at this point -- the point that matters is it was AFTER the 69th week (yes the text says after 62 weeks; but verse 24 makes clear that first it was 7 weeks and then 62 weeks -- for the grand total of 69) -- so sometime after the 69 week -- the Anointed One is cut off - and we ALL believe that refers to Jesus Christ Crucifixion.
NOW verse 26 finishes with "shall destroy the city and the sanctuary" -- most believe that refers with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD70
MANY, MANY people scratch their heads pointing out their is NO WAY to account for the amount of time between the crucifixion and the destruction of the city....
So either One must say this is a FAIL Prophecy ..... or that we just do not have a clear understanding of what is going on.....
BUT here is the real "clincher" -- if you will.....
VERSE 27 -- plainly says there is a WEEK --- that will start at the time of .....
"27 He shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease; and on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate; and even to the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out on the desolate."
THAT "WEEK" is the 70th Week -- because it is still in the same prophecy that was given to Daniel about the 70 weeks...... (and we seen the completion of 69 weeks already -- with one week remaining)
The point is either Daniel is a false prophet -- cause his timing appears way off --- OR -- How I view it .........
we simply do not understand how it all fits together .... BUT the LAST WEEK (the 70th) does NOT START until the "FIRM Covenant" starts.......
You have that 70th Week starting in verse 27 -- were the "cut off" happening in verse 26 (which is after 69 weeks)
So EITHER their is a gap (which most believe in) OR Gabriel and God cannot count cause the 70th week does not start until the covenant comes.
kjs, your summation shows that the "one week" of Dan. 9:27 is the 7 years of tribulation. Am I following you correctly? Is the tribulation 7 years. I'd rather just say "your summation shows that the "one week" of Dan 9:27 is the 7 years" at the end of the age. Or one could say if the 70th week had not happened yet, fully or partially, do you believe the 70th week is a literal 7 years unfulfilled for the end of days? Revelation mentions the 2 witnesses being around for 42 months. The time of the gentiles is only for 42 months. The outer court is given unto the gentiles to tread underfoot for 42 months. What happened to the other 42 months? Though I have always followed a model of 7 literal years, I must be honest before myself and acknowledge that there is a literal 7 years, but I find is very difficult saying what we see in Revelation is all 7 years. Now, I am not a preterist. I don't believe the sack of 70AD has anything to do with Revelation IMO for a multitude (25+) of reasons. I don't want to go off track from your post, I just wanted to highlight that we don't know the length of the tribulation. It is doubtful that is last a full 7 years. The Lord said he would make it short for the elects sake. 7 years is not short when facing 1/3rd to a quarter of the world in extreme persecution. |
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Post by kjs on Apr 13, 2019 8:52:02 GMT -6
boraddict -- I would say I would agree with venge here -- since these Revelation Time Lines do not really seem to align with the Daniel Timelines.
In my mind that simply means we humans -- still do not understand God's Overall Plan View -- at some point (possibly after we are no longer on earth) we will Understand how all these prophecies fit together.
Do I think the outstanding "WEEK" from verse 27 in Daniel 9 -- is indeed the Tribulation period? Maybe, or maybe it is ONLY a portion of the entire period.
Remember what Gabriel states "...Seventy weeks are decreed on your people and on your holy city...."
So the "Clue" is the "WEEKS" or basically 70 "seven Year Periods" AND Each WEEK (at least the ending ones) is spelled out for us.
So 7 Weeks and 62 Weeks (OR 69 Weeks) have to pass BEFORE the Anointed One is "CUT Off" -- we believe that this occurred when Jesus Christ was crucified on the cross.
Now the crucifixion took place in 28AD or 30AD or 33AD or 34 AD (note we know it could not have happen before 28AD nor after 34AD -- based on the various characters who were also around at that time)
We also know the "....destroy the city and the sanctuary...." took Place in 70AD
AFTER the destruction of the City and Sanctuary --- there is ONE MORE WEEK identified......
For short hand purposes we will call that the WEEK of the Covenant -- the week of the covenant is further broken up into a first half and a second half
So we know for sure 69 weeks have passed before the Anointed One is Cut Off. We also Know someone is going to make a Covenant with Israel for One week (the 70th week)
We also know that Israel has NOT existed from 70AD -- until May 1948 -- so during that time period there was NO One to make a covenant with.....
NOW to be fair it is possible for some Covenant to have been made between then Crucifixion date and the City Destruction at 70 AD......
BUT we have no historical record of such of a covenant -- nor a seven year period broken into two half's.....
PLUS WE KNOW that God is still dealing with Israel (think May 1948 re-start) -- therefore we know for sure the 70th week HAS NOT Happened as of yet.
So we still have a FUTURE Seven Year period that will deal specifically with Israel -- FOR THEIR seventieth week.
WHAT THIS ALL MEANS --- Either Daniel is a False Prophet -- because obviously the 70 Weeks -- were not sequential (which also makes Gabriel and God a Liar or at least someone bad math) because though the 69 weeks did appear to be correct -- after the 69th week -- things have fallen apart -- since it is been longer then seven years between crucifixion
and city destruction.
OR take it how we futurist take it -- A Pause or GAP has been inserted between the CUT OFF of the Anointed and the final 70th week.
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Post by boraddict on Apr 13, 2019 9:16:41 GMT -6
boraddict -- I would say I would agree with venge here -- since these Revelation Time Lines do not really seem to align with the Daniel Timelines.
In my mind that simply means we humans -- still do not understand God's Overall Plan View -- at some point (possibly after we are no longer on earth) we will Understand how all these prophecies fit together.
Do I think the outstanding "WEEK" from verse 27 in Daniel 9 -- is indeed the Tribulation period? Maybe, or maybe it is ONLY a portion of the entire period.
Remember what Gabriel states "...Seventy weeks are decreed on your people and on your holy city...."
So the "Clue" is the "WEEKS" or basically 70 "seven Year Periods" AND Each WEEK (at least the ending ones) is spelled out for us.
So 7 Weeks and 62 Weeks (OR 69 Weeks) have to pass BEFORE the Anointed One is "CUT Off" -- we believe that this occurred when Jesus Christ was crucified on the cross.
Now the crucifixion took place in 28AD or 30AD or 33AD or 34 AD (note we know it could not have happen before 28AD nor after 34AD -- based on the various characters who were also around at that time)
We also know the "....destroy the city and the sanctuary...." took Place in 70AD
AFTER the destruction of the City and Sanctuary --- there is ONE MORE WEEK identified......
For short hand purposes we will call that the WEEK of the Covenant -- the week of the covenant is further broken up into a first half and a second half
So we know for sure 69 weeks have passed before the Anointed One is Cut Off. We also Know someone is going to make a Covenant with Israel for One week (the 70th week)
We also know that Israel has NOT existed from 70AD -- until May 1948 -- so during that time period there was NO One to make a covenant with.....
NOW to be fair it is possible for some Covenant to have been made between then Crucifixion date and the City Destruction at 70 AD......
BUT we have no historical record of such of a covenant -- nor a seven year period broken into two half's.....
PLUS WE KNOW that God is still dealing with Israel (think May 1948 re-start) -- therefore we know for sure the 70th week HAS NOT Happened as of yet.
So we still have a FUTURE Seven Year period that will deal specifically with Israel -- FOR THEIR seventieth week.
WHAT THIS ALL MEANS --- Either Daniel is a False Prophet -- because obviously the 70 Weeks -- were not sequential (which also makes Gabriel and God a Liar or at least someone bad math) because though the 69 weeks did appear to be correct -- after the 69th week -- things have fallen apart -- since it is been longer then seven years between crucifixion
and city destruction.
OR take it how we futurist take it -- A Pause or GAP has been inserted between the CUT OFF of the Anointed and the final 70th week.
Yes. I feel that it is a subject that is beyond my pay grade. |
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Post by boraddict on Apr 13, 2019 10:28:56 GMT -6
My thoughts on the prophecy.
King James Version, Dan. 9:24-27
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people (Judah) and upon thy holy city (Jerusalem),
to 1) finish the transgression,
and 2) to make an end of sins,
and 3) to make reconciliation for iniquity,
and 4) to bring in everlasting righteousness,
and 5) to seal up the vision and prophecy,
and 6) to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand,
that from 1) the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem
unto 2) the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:
3) the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. (This is a reference back to item number 1 and the first 49 years.)
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, (This is a reference back to item number 2 that after 69 weeks .... After the end of sins wherein the Savior was on the cross) but not for himself: because, he was on the cross to pay for the sins of his people
and the people of the prince (Judah) that shall come (at the time of the Christ) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; (because they incite Rome to destroy them and the temple)
The Jews in their homeland is no more and this is the GAP in the prophecy.
and the end thereof (items 4-6) shall be with a flood (this is a reference to Noah's flood at Matt. 24:39), and unto the end of the war (the war with Satan) desolations are determined.
27 And 4) he (Christ) shall confirm the covenant (payment for sin) with many (to bring in everlasting righteousness. The Rapture) for one week: (This seems to indicate that the rapture takes place and the temple is built at the beginning of the week; 7 literal years)
and (however) 5) in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice (payment for sin) and the oblation (function of the temple that represents Christ) to cease, (because the beast has desecrated the temple)
and for the overspreading of abominations (by the beast) he (Christ) shall make it (the temple) desolate,
even until the 6) consummation (That is, even until the anointing of the most holy Christ to rule upon the earth), and that determined (wrath of God) shall be poured upon the desolate.
Post Script: There appears to be a chiasmus at Verses 25-27 as follows:
v. 25, Items 1, 2, and 3
v. 26, center and emphasis of the chiasmus
v. 27, Items 4, 5, and 6
Something like:
Item 1, "finish the transgression," restore and rebuild Jerusalem at the time of Nehemiah, 49 years
Item 2, "make an end of sins," the Atonement that from the beginning of item number 1 is 69 weeks of years
Item 3, "make reconciliation for iniquity," reference to the troubles times
Rome destroys Judah and Jerusalem
The Chiasmus Center GAP
Judah and Jerusalem are born again and the ending flood of destruction
Item 4, "bring in everlasting righteousness," rapture and temple at the beginning of the 7 years
Item 5, "seal up the vision and prophecy," end of the atonement at the center of the 7 years
Item 6, "anoint the most Holy," wrath of God at the end of the 7 years
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Post by venge on Apr 13, 2019 17:51:15 GMT -6
boraddict -- I would say I would agree with venge here -- since these Revelation Time Lines do not really seem to align with the Daniel Timelines.
In my mind that simply means we humans -- still do not understand God's Overall Plan View -- at some point (possibly after we are no longer on earth) we will Understand how all these prophecies fit together.
Do I think the outstanding "WEEK" from verse 27 in Daniel 9 -- is indeed the Tribulation period? Maybe, or maybe it is ONLY a portion of the entire period.
Remember what Gabriel states "...Seventy weeks are decreed on your people and on your holy city...."
So the "Clue" is the "WEEKS" or basically 70 "seven Year Periods" AND Each WEEK (at least the ending ones) is spelled out for us.
So 7 Weeks and 62 Weeks (OR 69 Weeks) have to pass BEFORE the Anointed One is "CUT Off" -- we believe that this occurred when Jesus Christ was crucified on the cross.
Now the crucifixion took place in 28AD or 30AD or 33AD or 34 AD (note we know it could not have happen before 28AD nor after 34AD -- based on the various characters who were also around at that time)
We also know the "....destroy the city and the sanctuary...." took Place in 70AD
AFTER the destruction of the City and Sanctuary --- there is ONE MORE WEEK identified......
For short hand purposes we will call that the WEEK of the Covenant -- the week of the covenant is further broken up into a first half and a second half
So we know for sure 69 weeks have passed before the Anointed One is Cut Off. We also Know someone is going to make a Covenant with Israel for One week (the 70th week)
We also know that Israel has NOT existed from 70AD -- until May 1948 -- so during that time period there was NO One to make a covenant with.....
NOW to be fair it is possible for some Covenant to have been made between then Crucifixion date and the City Destruction at 70 AD......
BUT we have no historical record of such of a covenant -- nor a seven year period broken into two half's.....
PLUS WE KNOW that God is still dealing with Israel (think May 1948 re-start) -- therefore we know for sure the 70th week HAS NOT Happened as of yet.
So we still have a FUTURE Seven Year period that will deal specifically with Israel -- FOR THEIR seventieth week.
WHAT THIS ALL MEANS --- Either Daniel is a False Prophet -- because obviously the 70 Weeks -- were not sequential (which also makes Gabriel and God a Liar or at least someone bad math) because though the 69 weeks did appear to be correct -- after the 69th week -- things have fallen apart -- since it is been longer then seven years between crucifixion
and city destruction.
OR take it how we futurist take it -- A Pause or GAP has been inserted between the CUT OFF of the Anointed and the final 70th week.
Looking at what you wrote, let me add something. And we may not be in agreement but I am trying to understand what you wrote above. In my Chronology, I have it look like this: 1. First 7 weeks start in 457 BC on a sabbatical year during the reign of Artaxerxes 1 2. This ends in 408 BC and the 62 weeks begins in 407 BC which is a sabbatical year from fall to spring (407 and 408 bc) 3. This would end at 27 AD which in the fall starts a sabbatical year. This is also when Christ would begin his ministry per Luke 3:23 4. For Jesus to have 3 to 3.5 year ministry, this would most likely place him at the end of year 30 AD during the reign of Tiberius. Technically, it is possible to say the 69 weeks were completed and the first 1260 days of the Day of the Lord where he brings in good tidings, healing the sick etc...leaving 1260 days for the Day of Vengeance It is interesting that 40 years later from this date would be the sack of Jerusalem. 40 is interesting because the flood came for 40 days and 40 nights, 40 is also a number involved in other warnings. Nonetheless, His command to spread the gospel was to the whole world. How can that be accomplished in 40 years when they didn't have automobiles, planes etc.. The other issue is that John didn't write Revelation till the end of the reign of Domitian. He reigned 82-96 AD and it was in the end of his reign that Revelation was written.(Irenaeus against Heresies 30) (90-96 AD) well after 70 AD Also worth noting but the 6th head of the beast really wasn't removed from power till about 313 AD and just for more info, Jerusalem was captured by the 1st Crusade in 1099 AD where they murdered most of the Jews and Arabs there. |
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