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Post by boraddict on Apr 13, 2019 19:04:26 GMT -6
Looking at what you wrote, let me add something. And we may not be in agreement but I am trying to understand what you wrote above. In my Chronology, I have it look like this: 1. First 7 weeks start in 457 BC on a sabbatical year during the reign of Artaxerxes 1 2. This ends in 408 BC and the 62 weeks begins in 407 BC which is a sabbatical year from fall to spring (407 and 408 bc) 3. This would end at 27 AD which in the fall starts a sabbatical year. This is also when Christ would begin his ministry per Luke 3:23 4. For Jesus to have 3 to 3.5 year ministry, this would most likely place him at the end of year 30 AD during the reign of Tiberius. Technically, it is possible to say the 69 weeks were completed and the first 1260 days of the Day of the Lord where he brings in good tidings, healing the sick etc...leaving 1260 days for the Day of Vengeance It is interesting that 40 years later from this date would be the sack of Jerusalem. 40 is interesting because the flood came for 40 days and 40 nights, 40 is also a number involved in other warnings. Nonetheless, His command to spread the gospel was to the whole world. How can that be accomplished in 40 years when they didn't have automobiles, planes etc.. The other issue is that John didn't write Revelation till the end of the reign of Domitian. He reigned 82-96 AD and it was in the end of his reign that Revelation was written.(Irenaeus against Heresies 30) (90-96 AD) well after 70 AD Also worth noting but the 6th head of the beast really wasn't removed from power till about 313 AD and just for more info, Jerusalem was captured by the 1st Crusade in 1099 AD where they murdered most of the Jews and Arabs there. Venge. The dates in your timeline look right to me. It places the birth of Christ in 3 BC and I am convinced that he was born at Tabernacles of that year. Therefore, at Tabernacles 27 AD he would have been 30 years old. I think it was after Tabernacles of that year that he was baptized, fasted 40 days, went to the marriage etc. and was ready as a legitimate rabbi in Judah and Savior of the world; to begin his work striking at the heart of false doctrine on Passover 28 AD. We differ with respect to the 3.5 years wherein your timeline takes us to 30 AD. I feel that Daniel's prophecy (vv. 9:25-27) has an application with respect to the Savior's ministry to wit he ministers for 69.5 weeks and is killed in the middle of that 70th week. So if we back-up from that date in 29 BC (Passover) by 52 weeks to Passover of 28 BC, and then back-up an additional 17.5 weeks (52 + 17.5 = 69.5), to the beginning of his ministry, we then arrive at his official ministry start date (haven't done the calendar math for that date). That is probably his date of baptism. This provides a third application of Daniel's 9:25-27 prophecy. 1) the prophecy shows the peace treaty of the beast that is commonly held 2) the prophecy shows the span of time from Nehemiah to the last days that I explained in a previous posting 3) the prophecy shows the 70 week ministry of the Savior |
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Post by boraddict on Apr 14, 2019 7:57:01 GMT -6
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Post by mike on Apr 14, 2019 10:59:03 GMT -6
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Post by venge on Apr 14, 2019 11:09:01 GMT -6
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Post by venge on Apr 14, 2019 11:39:08 GMT -6
Looking at what you wrote, let me add something. And we may not be in agreement but I am trying to understand what you wrote above. In my Chronology, I have it look like this: 1. First 7 weeks start in 457 BC on a sabbatical year during the reign of Artaxerxes 1 2. This ends in 408 BC and the 62 weeks begins in 407 BC which is a sabbatical year from fall to spring (407 and 408 bc) 3. This would end at 27 AD which in the fall starts a sabbatical year. This is also when Christ would begin his ministry per Luke 3:23 4. For Jesus to have 3 to 3.5 year ministry, this would most likely place him at the end of year 30 AD during the reign of Tiberius. Technically, it is possible to say the 69 weeks were completed and the first 1260 days of the Day of the Lord where he brings in good tidings, healing the sick etc...leaving 1260 days for the Day of Vengeance It is interesting that 40 years later from this date would be the sack of Jerusalem. 40 is interesting because the flood came for 40 days and 40 nights, 40 is also a number involved in other warnings. Nonetheless, His command to spread the gospel was to the whole world. How can that be accomplished in 40 years when they didn't have automobiles, planes etc.. The other issue is that John didn't write Revelation till the end of the reign of Domitian. He reigned 82-96 AD and it was in the end of his reign that Revelation was written.(Irenaeus against Heresies 30) (90-96 AD) well after 70 AD Also worth noting but the 6th head of the beast really wasn't removed from power till about 313 AD and just for more info, Jerusalem was captured by the 1st Crusade in 1099 AD where they murdered most of the Jews and Arabs there. Venge. The dates in your timeline look right to me. It places the birth of Christ in 3 BC and I am convinced that he was born at Tabernacles of that year. Therefore, at Tabernacles 27 AD he would have been 30 years old. I think it was after Tabernacles of that year that he was baptized, fasted 40 days, went to the marriage etc. and was ready as a legitimate rabbi in Judah and Savior of the world; to begin his work striking at the heart of false doctrine on Passover 28 AD. We differ with respect to the 3.5 years wherein your timeline takes us to 30 AD. I feel that Daniel's prophecy (vv. 9:25-27) has an application with respect to the Savior's ministry to wit he ministers for 69.5 weeks and is killed in the middle of that 70th week. So if we back-up from that date in 29 BC (Passover) by 52 weeks to Passover of 28 BC, and then back-up an additional 17.5 weeks (52 + 17.5 = 69.5), to the beginning of his ministry, we then arrive at his official ministry start date (haven't done the calendar math for that date). That is probably his date of baptism. This provides a third application of Daniel's 9:25-27 prophecy. 1) the prophecy shows the peace treaty of the beast that is commonly held 2) the prophecy shows the span of time from Nehemiah to the last days that I explained in a previous posting 3) the prophecy shows the 70 week ministry of the Savior I believe I have the birth of Jesus as 2 BC. If he was to live to about 30 years of age, 2 BC to 1BC = 1 yr. 1 BC to 1 AD is 1 year for a total of 2. That brings us to 30 AD which could still be 30 years and not 31 because of when he was actually born and when he died not being a full year. It would be like 30 yrs and 8 months as an example. I had 27 AD, actually the fall of 27 AD since it is stated that the land was fallowed. Spring in 28AD would imply an incoming harvest. Still we are talking about months of difference, not years of difference. That is a good thing. I would assume that the "he" mentioned is the AC that makes a alliance with many, as we know the 10 member coalition that is of Iron and Clay, part strong part broken. I will post the scripture you ref. below for others to read. I inserted my opinion on dates and bolded them to specify to readers how it would play out. I suppose that Christ being crucified at the 69th week conclusion, that would imply that his missionary work for 3-3.5 years does not count as the first 1260 days part of the first half of the 70th week. It would still leave a literal 7 years. This follows the same pattern of the previous sabbatical years. I do have a problem with a 2k year gap. I know the answer lies in the word, we are either blind to see it or something else. |
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Post by kjs on Apr 14, 2019 11:46:55 GMT -6
Technically, it is possible to say the 69 weeks were completed and the first 1260 days of the Day of the Lord where he brings in good tidings, healing the sick etc...leaving 1260 days for the Day of Vengeance It is interesting that 40 years later from this date would be the sack of Jerusalem. 40 is interesting because the flood came for 40 days and 40 nights, 40 is also a number involved in other warnings. Nonetheless, His command to spread the gospel was to the whole world. How can that be accomplished in 40 years when they didn't have automobiles, planes etc.. The other issue is that John didn't write Revelation till the end of the reign of Domitian. He reigned 82-96 AD and it was in the end of his reign that Revelation was written.(Irenaeus against Heresies 30) (90-96 AD) well after 70 AD Also worth noting but the 6th head of the beast really wasn't removed from power till about 313 AD and just for more info, Jerusalem was captured by the 1st Crusade in 1099 AD where they murdered most of the Jews and Arabs there. You are correct -- at this point we disagree.
What I have been attempting to show to everyone is that the 70th Week is identified in the actual prophecy.
That 70th week is the week identified in verse 27 where it states "someone" (will not get into the argument over who the someone is) -- that someone will establish a covenant with Israel for seven years. That seven year period is broken into half's -- with the first half -- the covenant is upheld and the second half the covenant is trashed. (Is the covenant a peace treaty, an alliance, or simply a border agreement ... we really do not know. We do know the "someone" "...shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease...." -- which sounds like Israel is being forced to do something do not want to do.)
Now, my personal belief follows what Robert Anderson discovered that being Artaxerxes Longimanus on March 14, 445 b.c gave the command and Jesus rode in (on Palm Sunday) April 6, 32 a.d. (that Sunday also happens to be the 10th of Nisan -- the day of Lamb selection) with the crucifixion taken place on the 14th of Nisan.
The Crucifixion is the "Cut Off" -- and in my opinion when the PAUSE Button was HIT for the 70 week prophecy.
Verse 27 contains the 70th week -- and that week STARTS with a FIRM Covenant .............
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Post by kjs on Apr 14, 2019 12:04:25 GMT -6
The "covenant with many" isn't a peace treaty. It's the word "bĕriyth" and that's an alliance. Peace treaties and alliances are two different things. Peace treaties are made with enemies, alliances are made with friends. Since bĕriyth is an alliance, that means this IS NOT a peace treaty!
Covenant --- IS BASICALLY a CONTRACT --- An agreement between two or more parties.
It may be a simple agreement -- with an owner of some land; hiring a laborer to work the land for a day or a week for X compensation.
To some complex agreement between countries laying out the boundaries...
No; we do not know what type of agreement will start the 70th week .... even though there has been much speculation....
I like one theory I heard once -- which the agreement is that Israel will get to build their temple....
Who knows -- but yes it (the covenant) will be the key to the start of the 70th week.....
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Post by boraddict on Apr 14, 2019 12:20:35 GMT -6
That is so funny. I had placed that movie (the two witnesses) in this thread and then decided to place the movie in a new thread. Afterwards, I was not able to delete the posting (with the movie) in this thread, so I deleted the contents of the post. At that point I was forced to leave something. So I wrote "a" with the plan of finding a different solution later on; then I forgot about the "a" posting. |
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Post by mike on Apr 14, 2019 14:55:24 GMT -6
Bora when/if you have a problem like and need to delete a post, quote the bad post and tag me or another mod asking to delete both.
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Post by venge on Apr 14, 2019 17:44:56 GMT -6
Technically, it is possible to say the 69 weeks were completed and the first 1260 days of the Day of the Lord where he brings in good tidings, healing the sick etc...leaving 1260 days for the Day of Vengeance It is interesting that 40 years later from this date would be the sack of Jerusalem. 40 is interesting because the flood came for 40 days and 40 nights, 40 is also a number involved in other warnings. Nonetheless, His command to spread the gospel was to the whole world. How can that be accomplished in 40 years when they didn't have automobiles, planes etc.. The other issue is that John didn't write Revelation till the end of the reign of Domitian. He reigned 82-96 AD and it was in the end of his reign that Revelation was written.(Irenaeus against Heresies 30) (90-96 AD) well after 70 AD Also worth noting but the 6th head of the beast really wasn't removed from power till about 313 AD and just for more info, Jerusalem was captured by the 1st Crusade in 1099 AD where they murdered most of the Jews and Arabs there. You are correct -- at this point we disagree.
What I have been attempting to show to everyone is that the 70th Week is identified in the actual prophecy.
That 70th week is the week identified in verse 27 where it states "someone" (will not get into the argument over who the someone is) -- that someone will establish a covenant with Israel for seven years. That seven year period is broken into half's -- with the first half -- the covenant is upheld and the second half the covenant is trashed. (Is the covenant a peace treaty, an alliance, or simply a border agreement ... we really do not know. We do know the "someone" "...shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease...." -- which sounds like Israel is being forced to do something do not want to do.)
Now, my personal belief follows what Robert Anderson discovered that being Artaxerxes Longimanus on March 14, 445 b.c gave the command and Jesus rode in (on Palm Sunday) April 6, 32 a.d. (that Sunday also happens to be the 10th of Nisan -- the day of Lamb selection) with the crucifixion taken place on the 14th of Nisan.
The Crucifixion is the "Cut Off" -- and in my opinion when the PAUSE Button was HIT for the 70 week prophecy.
Verse 27 contains the 70th week -- and that week STARTS with a FIRM Covenant .............
I agree. When did I disagree with that? I was suggesting that some hold to a view that the first half of the 70th week might have been during Jesus ministry. But if you kept reading, I said So yes, I believe that verse 27 contains the 70th week. Thought I made that clear lol |
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Post by kjs on Apr 15, 2019 8:00:47 GMT -6
You are correct -- at this point we disagree.
What I have been attempting to show to everyone is that the 70th Week is identified in the actual prophecy.
That 70th week is the week identified in verse 27 where it states "someone" (will not get into the argument over who the someone is) -- that someone will establish a covenant with Israel for seven years. That seven year period is broken into half's -- with the first half -- the covenant is upheld and the second half the covenant is trashed. (Is the covenant a peace treaty, an alliance, or simply a border agreement ... we really do not know. We do know the "someone" "...shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease...." -- which sounds like Israel is being forced to do something do not want to do.)
Now, my personal belief follows what Robert Anderson discovered that being Artaxerxes Longimanus on March 14, 445 b.c gave the command and Jesus rode in (on Palm Sunday) April 6, 32 a.d. (that Sunday also happens to be the 10th of Nisan -- the day of Lamb selection) with the crucifixion taken place on the 14th of Nisan.
The Crucifixion is the "Cut Off" -- and in my opinion when the PAUSE Button was HIT for the 70 week prophecy.
Verse 27 contains the 70th week -- and that week STARTS with a FIRM Covenant .............
I agree. When did I disagree with that? I was suggesting that some hold to a view that the first half of the 70th week might have been during Jesus ministry. But if you kept reading, I said So yes, I believe that verse 27 contains the 70th week. Thought I made that clear lol Sorry, guess I did not read it as carefully as I should have......... |
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Post by kjs on Apr 15, 2019 8:21:03 GMT -6
Covenant --- IS BASICALLY a CONTRACT --- An agreement between two or more parties.
It may be a simple agreement -- with an owner of some land; hiring a laborer to work the land for a day or a week for X compensation.
To some complex agreement between countries laying out the boundaries...
No; we do not know what type of agreement will start the 70th week .... even though there has been much speculation....
I like one theory I heard once -- which the agreement is that Israel will get to build their temple....
Who knows -- but yes it (the covenant) will be the key to the start of the 70th week.....
I'm not a believer in the 70TH week. Daniel 9:24-27 are difficult passages but it seems to me that it was fulfilled about 2000 years ago at Christ first advent. The experts tell us that the 'he' of verse 27 is the anti-Christ, but the context of verse 25 and 26 are speaking about Jesus Christ! NOT THE ANTICHRIST!
Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolation's are determined.
Why would the prophecy of “seventy weeks indicate anything but 70 sequential weeks? Why would this biblical time period start, then stop at what the experts call a 'gap,' and then start up again some 2000 years later? If that's the case then the week following the 69th week really isn't the 70th week since there's a 2000 year gap! The passage doesn't mention anything about tribulation, an anti-Christ, or the rebuilding of a temple, or animal sacrifices. The passage in verse 25 and 26 speak about the Messiah. So grammatically speaking it makes no sense to me that verse 27 would suddenly completely change into speaking about the anti-Christ. The Messiah being “cut off" is referring to Christ’s death, sacrifice - the cross. To top it all off, the 'experts' tell us that animal sacrifices are resumed only to have them cease again.
When I looked at this in the online interlinear bible and in Gesenius Lexicon I understood the verse as follows.
...and the city, sanctuary, and people of the coming Prince (Messiah) shall be destroyed and their end shall come suddenly by an overflowing army until the end of the war when desolation's are decreed by the Messiah.
...and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
That means the Temple mount would remain desolate like it is today until the Lord's return.Maybe it is an alliance, maybe it is a peace treaty -- All we know for sure is the covenant is made (0r re-established) between whomever the Someone is and Israel... THE KEY is Israel is one of the parties of the convent -- Not the church.
Verse 27 clearly states the 70th week starts at the time of the Covenant -- or the Firm Covenant.
That Firm Covenant DID NOT Start between the Crucifixion Date and the destruction of the City and Sanctuary --- 1) Because Israel was NOT in the position to make a covenant -- they were a vessel state of Roman. (clearly seen cause when the did try to rebel in 69AD -- they were wiped out in 70AD) 2) Since 70AD to May 1948 -- there was not State of Israel to make a covenant with.
Since May 1948 -- Israel has taken part of several treaties -- BUT NOT one where they took and kept possession of Jerusalem (which is also Key)
As far as Jesus Christ being the maker of the Covenant -- Umm you do realize he was only on the Earth 40 days after the resurrection -- AND None of the religious leaders wanted anything to do with HIM -- plus they (Israel) was still a vessel state and Had not rights to make a covenant.
AS FAR as where does the prophecy indicate that there is "A PAUSE" -- look no further than verse 26......
AFTER 69 weeks .... several things have to happen 1) Cut off of the Anointed one 2) Destruction of City (Jerusalem) and Sanctuary. -- those things took place 37 to 40 years apart .....
Verse 37 states when and How the 70TH week starts .... which is after the two points above.....
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Post by Natalie on Apr 15, 2019 11:01:43 GMT -6
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Post by boraddict on Apr 15, 2019 11:49:32 GMT -6
Maybe it is an alliance, maybe it is a peace treaty -- All we know for sure is the covenant is made (0r re-established) between whomever the Someone is and Israel... THE KEY is Israel is one of the parties of the convent -- Not the church.
Verse 27 clearly states the 70th week starts at the time of the Covenant -- or the Firm Covenant.
That Firm Covenant DID NOT Start between the Crucifixion Date and the destruction of the City and Sanctuary --- 1) Because Israel was NOT in the position to make a covenant -- they were a vessel state of Roman. (clearly seen cause when the did try to rebel in 69AD -- they were wiped out in 70AD) 2) Since 70AD to May 1948 -- there was not State of Israel to make a covenant with.
Since May 1948 -- Israel has taken part of several treaties -- BUT NOT one where they took and kept possession of Jerusalem (which is also Key)
As far as Jesus Christ being the maker of the Covenant -- Umm you do realize he was only on the Earth 40 days after the resurrection -- AND None of the religious leaders wanted anything to do with HIM -- plus they (Israel) was still a vessel state and Had not rights to make a covenant.
AS FAR as where does the prophecy indicate that there is "A PAUSE" -- look no further than verse 26......
AFTER 69 weeks .... several things have to happen 1) Cut off of the Anointed one 2) Destruction of City (Jerusalem) and Sanctuary. -- those things took place 37 to 40 years apart .....
Verse 37 states when and How the 70TH week starts .... which is after the two points above.....
I believe the 70th week stuff has been instrumental in misleading people.Perhaps each of you, kjs and jamie, could make your best summation of the 70 week application that you believe to be correct. Additionally, if you named that theory so that it might be referenced; it would help. You know, like the tribulation theories are named pre, mid, and post. I suppose the pre, mid, and post might apply to the 70 week theories but then we might also need pre "a", pre "b", etc. I don't know, just guessing on that. The mid theory would be the 70 week ministry of Christ. Although most Christians do not believe in this theory, at least it would have a name. |
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Post by Natalie on Apr 15, 2019 12:28:18 GMT -6
I guess the question I have is that if the 70 weeks are already completed, why didn't that wrap up history?
I'm guessing that's one way to lead to replacement theology...God gave them 70 weeks, they rejected Jesus, so He's moved on to the church. (But that's not what the Bible teaches.)
God still has promises yet to fulfill for Israel; He still needs to finish up their history. That's one reason that I see a need for the 70th week to be future. They still need Jesus as their atonement and everlasting righteousness (Dan 9:24)
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