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Post by Gary on Apr 15, 2019 14:39:06 GMT -6
So much could be said and unpacked here. I'll just start with a few small points:
1. The Messiah is cut off after the first 69 periods of seven (v. 26), not in the middle of the 70th period of seven (v. 27). A literal reading of Daniel 9:24–26 presents what I would consider to be an insurmountable problem with the no gap theory (and also the theory that Jesus is the 'he' of v. 27) if we take these Scriptures at face value.
2. The Messiah who is cut off "but not for Himself" is clearly Jesus (no Christians that I am aware of would argue otherwise). However, He is mentioned in v. 26a. It's later in the verse, that "the prince" whose people destroy the city and the holy [place] shows up, thus per rules of most recent mention, it is far more likely that the antecedent of 'he' in v. 27 is "the prince" in v. 26. This, among other contextual reasons, is why there is very little scholarship defending the view that Jesus is the 'he' in v. 27. Even many preterists and historicists differentiate between the Messiah and prince in v. 26.
Furthermore, whoever this "prince" is, his people destroy Jerusalem and the holy [place]. Whether this refers to the people of the Roman nation in general (Roman ancestry view) or the more recent views presented by Joel Richardson and Walid Shoebat (Syrian and Turkish conscripts), there is no historical or biblical basis whatsoever to say these people are the Jews. Thus the prince in v. 27 is not Jesus.
3. Jesus never made a seven year covenant. This has always been the elephant in the room to me when the suggestion is that the 'he' of v. 27 is Jesus. Suggesting he did, would be pure assumption and potentially worse. The covenant in His blood is everlasting.
4. Jesus didn't put an end to sacrifices at His death. Another elephant in the room. The continual sacrifices continued on for another ~37 years. Now someone might respond that He put an end to the need for sacrifices, but there are two major problems with that view: first, v. 27 plainly says this "prince" interrupts/ceases/ends sacrifices, not that he merely ended the pretext for them. Second, Hebrews 10 tells us quite plainly that the ancient sacrifices could never take away sins, even before Christ's atoning sacrifice (hence Jesus the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world).
5. There is nothing unscriptural about a gap that I'm aware of, in fact there are several examples of prophetic gaps including Isaiah 61:2, which actually occurs mid-verse. In Daniel 9 the text itself distinguishes between a first period of 49 years, a second period of 434, and a final period of 7.
6. Finally, the purpose of the prophecy is explicitly given (v. 24) for Daniel's people (the Jews) and his city (Jerusalem). At the completion of the 70th week: 1. the people and city will have finished transgression, 2. ended sin, 3. made reconciliation for iniquity, 4. brought in everlasting/continual righteousness, 5. sealed up vision and prophecy, and 6. anointed the Most Holy. None of these things have yet happened for the people or the city, thus the 70th week has not yet transpired.
Bolstering this point and going back to Isaiah 61:2, based on Luke 4:19 we see Jesus Himself bisecting Isaiah 61:2 by... [drum roll]... the current 2,000 year period of time we're living in that precedes the Day of the LORD.
Acts 15:14–18 provides the basis for this gap. God would first take "out of" the Gentiles a people for Himself... and only after that happens would the prophecy be fulfilled of Israel and Jerusalem's complete restoration. The entire chapter of Romans 11 unpacks this: Israel has been temporarily hardened until the full number (or some would say "fullness") of the Gentiles comes in.
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Last thing: jamie , welcome to the board! Glad you're here. No big deal, no harm meant, would just kindly ask you to refrain from comments like these (per rule #3):
Blessings! 
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Post by davewatchman on Apr 15, 2019 15:29:14 GMT -6
I must disagree. Why do people believe the man of sin comes from Europe? I disagree too. I think that the man of sin comes from the United States. It's because i have the USA as the "earth" that helped the "woman" after 1260 years of Pay Pal persecution in Revelation 12. It's the same "earth" from chapter 13 that the second beast rises from, and i have him pegged as the Antichrist. He speaks like a dragon because he IS the dragon. I think that one of the most misleading interpretations about the end comes from Daniel 2. In other words, Rome isn't the fourth kingdom. It's not the legs of iron, therefore the toes mingled with iron and clay are NOT European. Greece is the legs of iron and that theory pre-dates or evolved during the time of Josephus. The reason most people believe Rome is the iron legs is because of the unfavorable opinion Rome acquired over the early centuries and resulting opinion from the reformers. I like the reformers. But i also don't think that the fourth kingdom was Rome. It was, but it wasn't. Look deeper at what was happening. It was England, it was Germany and it was France. Some people think that Rome will make a resurgence. That there will be a revived Roman Empire. But there won't be. Daniel 7's monster beast at it's core was never really Rome. It was how Martin Luther could be on the run for his life in his own home country. And it was how the Church in Rome had been given such great iron teeth to dictate the authority to say who would be burnt at the stake. Even the king of England was afraid and had to ask the Pope if he could divorce his wife. It was this deadly combination of Church and State. Who can make war with it? None of the horns on Revelation 13's composite beast will be plucked up by their roots. Some of the historicists were correct, the three who were plucked up by the roots happened already a long time ago in the Foxe Book days of Old Europe. Google the Vandals and read their Wiki page. And then the Ostrogoths and the Heruli. The people who think these are two different beasts come close. But it's the same beast system, with two different visitations. Like the second beast that rises from the earth that has TWO horns like the Lamb, two visitations. Two different prophetic time periods of authority. Like the Terminator, and Terminator II. The Daniel 7 beast is the same one as the Revelation 12 beast with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. In Revelation 13, the "crowns" have shifted to the ten horns. The authority has shifted to the world's governments in this end time church/state entity. But it really is the many nations and peoples and tongues of the world that the composite beast has risen from. They voted it into power this time. It rises from the sea of many peoples. Daniel 7 isn't a repeat of Daniel 2. Every 'beast' mentioned in ch. 7 is an end-time beast. But that same beast which kept Martin Luther and the Waldensians on the run during the Foxe Book Days never died. It got very weak after it's nearly mortal head wound in 1798, but it started getting back on it's feet again in 1929 with the help of Benito Mussolini during the Lateran treaty and has been building momentum every since. The composite beast just took a quick 131 or so year intermission: "Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.The composite beast is here again now, represented by the governments and religions of the world. And we are the woman's offspring that the dragon makes war with. The crowns have shifted to the horns, to the governments. The dragon has influenced the many nations and peoples and tongues to vote the thing in. This is how it has risen from the sea of many peoples and nations. The dragon gives it his power and his throne and his great authority. Then in return it opens it's mouth to blaspheme God and His dwelling place and those who live in heaven. Saying unheard of things against the God of gods. And the dragon stood on the sands of the sea. And welcome to the forum Jamie. |
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Post by davewatchman on Apr 15, 2019 16:24:59 GMT -6
I guess the question I have is that if the 70 weeks are already completed, why didn't that wrap up history? This is a great question. It caught my eye. Because i think that there might not have been a second coming. You are not the first one to ask this. Look again carefully at what Jesus said in Mark. “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”Jesus specifically says that the TIME is fulfilled. What time is He talking about? I'm fairly sure that He's talking about the same time that we are also talking about here, the Daniel 9 time, the 70 weeks prophecy. What I'm trying to explain here is difficult, it's a hard thing to understand. I don't want this to sound as if I'm blaming the Jews because I'm not. But maybe not everything in the OT eschatology had a guarantee that it would get done no matter what. The Ezekiel temple might be another example of something that IS fulfilled by not being built. "They have defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed, so I have consumed them in my anger. Now let them put away their whoring and the dead bodies of their kings far from me, [and I will dwell in their midst forever].What if they didn't put away their whoring or the dead bodies of their kings. Would He still dwell in their midst forever? Even after they crucified Him? How was He supposed to build Ezekiel's temple if they sent Him back to Heaven? “As for you, son of man, describe to the house of Israel the temple, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and they shall measure the plan. And if they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the temple, its arrangement, its exits and its entrances, that is, its whole design; and make known to them as well all its statutes and its whole design and all its laws, and write it down in their sight, so that they may observe all its laws and all its statutes and carry them out.What if they weren't ashamed of their iniquities and what they did. Would they still get the temple plan no matter what? Can you hear a stipulation or a condition in the Script? Are some of the Judaic Prophecies conditional? And they shall measure the PLAN. The Old Time Jews were given 70 weeks to, among other things, seal both the vision and the prophet. During the Babylonian exile God had three prophets in operation at the same time: Daniel, Ezekiel and Jeremiah. But these three prophets were being given two different end time schematics. Though technically Daniel is an OT book, it really is a sealed relative to Revelation's narrative and doesn't mix well with the OT end time scenario. With the exception of Daniel, is there any OT mention of a second coming? The original plan was for the Jews to accept their Messiah, then Jesus would have began the Kingdom of God on earth right away because it really was "at hand" at that time, the TIME was fulfilled. John the Baptist would not have died the way that he did, "lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction". Jesus would have sent disciples out from Jerusalem to invite anyone who wanted to be saved to come and live there in the Kingdom of God in the 1st century. Jerusalem would have eventually grown to such a huge population that it's walls could no longer contain it. Then, after some time, Lucifer in the guise of Gog Magog would attempt to attack the unwalled Holy City but Jesus would destroy him and his army right where they stood and we would spend the next seven years burying them and burning their wooden weapons. And the wolf would lay down with the lamb and we would watch an infant stick his hand into a viper's den while we built Ezekiel's Temple. But now instead, Paul gets knocked off his horse, the NT gets written, Daniel gets unsealed for the final generation, we get an end time Babylon, Antichrist, mark of the beast, two witnesses of 144,000, Jesus makes His Second Visitation and we go to a brand New Jerusalem with an end time variation on Gog Magog. Does this describe how the crucifixion occurred?: Him Whom They Have Pierced“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn. On that day the mourning in Jerusalem will be as great as the mourning for Hadad-rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. The land shall mourn, each family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the Shimeites by itself, and their wives by themselves; and all the families that are left, each by itself, and their wives by themselves.Or is this describing the original method of how Jesus would have been sacrificed if humanity had not turned Him over to the enemy? It's looking to me like everything that has taken place in the world since 1535 has been so that Israel would become a nation again in 1948. The Ottoman empire, WW1, WW2, 1948 and all the trees. But the one and the only reason for all this to happen was so that Israel could capture Jerusalem again and then in 1969 create a reason for the Knesset to make an official Governmental decree to "restore and build Jerusalem". "Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks.This was written 2600 years ago and at that time there may not have been a second coming required. The Jews might have cooperated and accepted their Messiah in the first century, they might have redeemed the 70 weeks. Jesus would have come one time only and never ascended back to heaven, making a second coming unnecessary. The TIME was really at hand in the first century. Daniel 9 had to be written in such a way as to include both the Primary Visitation of Messiah AND the possibility probability of a Secondary Visitation in a compact and simultaneous fashion. So if this is right, the TIME might be fulfilled again now. The Kingdom of God might be near again. "Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes,
[there will be seven 'sevens,'] AND [sixty-two 'sevens.']Primary Visitation [and] Secondary VisitationWhat if they didn't put away their whoring or the dead bodies of their kings. Would He still dwell in their midst forever? www.nowtheendbegins.com/israel-marks-first-ever-lgbt-rights-day-at-knesset/ |
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Post by Natalie on Apr 15, 2019 17:08:25 GMT -6
I guess the question I have is that if the 70 weeks are already completed, why didn't that wrap up history? ... The Old Time Jews were given 70 weeks to, among other things, seal both the vision and the prophet. During the Babylonian exile God had three prophets in operation at the same time: Daniel, Ezekiel and Jeremiah. But these three prophets were being given two different end time schematics. Though technically Daniel is an OT book, it really is a sealed relative to Revelation's narrative and doesn't mix well with the OT end time scenario. With the exception of Daniel, is there any OT mention of a second coming? The original plan was for the Jews to accept their Messiah, then Jesus would have began the Kingdom of God on earth right away because it really was "at hand" at that time, the TIME was fulfilled. John the Baptist would not have died the way that he did, "lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction". Jesus would have sent disciples out from Jerusalem to invite anyone who wanted to be saved to come and live there in the Kingdom of God in the 1st century. Jerusalem would have eventually grown to such a huge population that it's walls could no longer contain it. Then, after some time, Lucifer in the guise of Gog Magog would attempt to attack the unwalled Holy City but Jesus would destroy him and his army right where they stood and we would spend the next seven years burying them and burning their wooden weapons. And the wolf would lay down with the lamb and we would watch an infant stick his hand into a viper's den while we built Ezekiel's Temple. But now instead, Paul gets knocked off his horse, the NT gets written, Daniel gets unsealed for the final generation, we get an end time Babylon, Antichrist, mark of the beast, two witnesses of 144,000, Jesus makes His Second Visitation and we go to a brand New Jerusalem with an end time variation on Gog Magog. I have had some of the same thoughts...I like how you laid it all out.
God knew that they would not accept Jesus. The kingdom was at hand but it didn't come right then. We see now that a second coming is necessary, and verses that could have happened simultaneously happen a long time apart. So, there are "gaps" in prophecies. Like the one Jesus quoted when He read from the scroll (I don't know which it was right now, but He only read half of the prophecy because the rest was to come much later). And the gap in Daniel 9.
The workings of God are amazing.
And now that Daniel is unsealed we can understand even more.
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Post by mike on Apr 15, 2019 17:39:25 GMT -6
davewatchman - now you finally did it, you tried hard enough and got on my radar 🤯 I'm kidding - but you got me thinking. Best explanation on the "debate" I've heard. Even Sir Isaac Newton couldn't figure it out. He was smarter than I ever could be, maybe not more than you Dave. Briefly/quickly two thoughts 1. I see it all around us. It's the days of Noah. It's the time of calling good evil and evil good. Listen to how depraved, how given over to sin this man Pete Butigieg is 2. Do you see any contradictory evidence in other areas to this "theory"? Any other support? 3. Does this tie to the 2 Ascensions?
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Post by davewatchman on Apr 15, 2019 19:12:47 GMT -6
Thanks Mike. davewatchman - now you finally did it, you tried hard enough and got on my radar 🤯 I'm kidding - but you got me thinking. Best explanation on the "debate" I've heard. Even Sir Isaac Newton couldn't figure it out. He was smarter than I ever could be, maybe not more than you Dave. I know. Posting that stuff is risky. It's controversial. I don't think that i'm that smart. If i am it's because we're living at the time of the end, and knowledge has been increased. We can all stand on the shoulders of a great cloud of witnesses. We can ride on Isaac Newtons coattails. That's more like my style. 1. I see it all around us. It's the days of Noah. It's the time of calling good evil and evil good. Listen to how depraved, how given over to sin this man Pete Butigieg is The video won't play for me. It's not your fault Mike. It says that it's not allowed in my country. Maybe the composite beast IS sabotaging my plugin container after all. 3. Does this tie to the 2 Ascensions? Nope. The 2 Ascensions from the other thread has only to do with the Easter weekend and 40 days after. 2. Do you see any contradictory evidence in other areas to this "theory"? Not at this time. I'm ready to switch at a moments notice if i do. Yep, there is. This isn't the time or the place for it. Trust me. It has to do with the great city being split into three parts, split into thirds. The time is coming for Jesus to destroy the destroyers of the earth. Like the bar tender used to say at closing time: "you don't have to go home, but you can't stay here." Try this instead... The theory in my post i have also written about in other places in 2015 and 2016, so i have time stamped posts. Check out this 1 hour and 57 minute video about the two witnesses. I know that's long. It's not the same one from the boraddict thread. This one's different. I don't agree with the authors on everything that they say. But i'm watching along at one point and it sounded like they were reading from my notes. It was spooky. I'll start it at about 1:11, but try to watch this from 1:11 to about 1:15. Just watch 4 minutes of this. This is spooky. It gives me the goosebumps. The video was posted in December 2018. But these parts sound like they are reading from some of my notes. They use the term two "Visitations" of Messiah, and claim: "Then indeed, maybe, there needn't have been another day or a second coming and visitation. As Messiah would have been fully received by ALL his brethren and the Good News would have gone out to a world ripe for hope. Through and administered by them, the JEWISH People, the natural olive branch. |
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Post by mike on Apr 16, 2019 8:37:07 GMT -6
Ok Dave - I listened to the whole thing. Some points interesting, some to chew on, some i'm not so sure I agree
EDIT - from the video you cannot watch
"I can tell you that if me being gay was a choice it was a choice that was made far, far above my pay grade. And that the thing I wish the Mike Pences of the world would understand. That if you’ve got a problem with who I am, your problem is not with me. Your quarrel, sir is with my creator."
Heres another video with the above and some more before the above text. Since I'm challenged in starting the clip where I want to, jump to 12:11 - 13:13
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jp
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Post by jp on Apr 16, 2019 9:24:31 GMT -6
The 70 weeks is stricly an endtime prophecy. Gabriel is answering Daniel concerning the completion of the desolations. The desolations are not completed until the Messiah comes down. The countdown began in 1536. We just entered the 70th week on 3/20/2019. The 71st week is the wrath.
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jp
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Post by jp on Apr 16, 2019 9:28:35 GMT -6
The first paragraph...
I must disagree. Why do people believe the man of sin comes from Europe? And #5...
Even as a futurist, I'm not a believer in Daniel's 70th week. Daniel 9:26 proves nothing about the man of sin being Roman or European. In my view, there's not one verse of prophecy that points to Rome or the EU. Every nation mentioned in end-time prophecy is Arab, Persian, and Islamic today. Sounds like your belief is in line with schooldad3. The antichrist is a fallen angel. It is apollyon. The false prophet is the leader of the other fallen angels that get released at the 6th trumpet. |
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jp
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Post by jp on Apr 16, 2019 9:34:36 GMT -6
The typical futurist version of Daniel's 70th week found in ch. 9:24-27 presents several issues.
Why would the prophecy of “seventy weeks indicate anything but 70 sequential weeks? Why would this biblical time period start, then stop at what the experts call a 'gap,' and then start up again some 2000 years later? If that's the case then the week following the 69th week really isn't the 70th week since there's a 2000 year gap! The passage doesn't mention anything about tribulation, an anti-Christ, or the rebuilding of a temple, or animal sacrifices. The passage in verse 25 and 26 speak about the Messiah, his sacrifice, and the new covenant. So grammatically speaking it makes no sense that verse 27 would suddenly completely change into speaking about the anti-Christ. The Messiah being “cut off" is referring to Christ’s death.
The passage can be confusing, I believe it foretells the date of the Messiah’s death. Here's is the math.
(7 weeks)(7 days in a week) + (62 weeks)(7 days in a week) = 483 days (one day = one prophetic year) = 483 years.
483 years X 360 days in the Persian calendar (the one used at the time of this prophecy) = 173,880 days.
173,880 days / 365.25 days in a modern calendar = 476 years in a modern calendar.
444 BC is the year King Artaxerxes I of Persia sends Nehemiah to rebuild Jerusalem (Nehemiah 2:1 says it was in his 20th year and Artaxerxes I reigned from 465 to 424 so 444 BC would be the 20th year of his reign using the ascension year system of dating).
444 BC – 476 years = 32 AD + 1 year because there is no year zero going from BC to AD = 33 AD (the year of Christ’s crucifixion, “an anointed one shall be cut off”). Hi jamie. Your time line has several errors the first of which is the calculation of the years. That is, occasionally the 360 day Hebrew calendar was adjusted by 30 days so that the barley would always be aviv (ripe) in the month of the Passover. So while most years were 360 days there was an occasional year that was 390 days. Consequently our calendar year of 365.25 days matches their 360/390 (combination calendar) days and the correction to your calculation would be as follows: 483 years X 360 days (not counting the occasional 13th month of 30 days that adjusts for the aviv) in the Persian (Hebrew) calendar (the one used at the time of this prophecy) = 173,880 days. 173,880 days / 365.25 days in a modern calendar = 476 years in a modern calendar. (A calculation that excludes 84 aviv, 13 month, adjustments totaling 7 years.)Therefore, in my opinion, the word years in the prophecy means years as in revolutions around the sun and no further calculation equating months from one calendar to another is necessary. In fact, the transfer of days from one calendar to another in which the occasional 13 month is removed as you have done in your calculations throws the prophecy off by seven years rendering the remainder of your analysis in error. Since your analysis is in error then your assumption may also be in error to wit:
"I believe it foretells the date of the Messiah’s death. Here's is the math."
Having said that, I do agree that the prophecy foretells the date of the Savior's death; however, I prefer the method of isolating that date first, and then applying the prophecy. Since all prophecy has multiple applications then all of Daniel's work applies to our period of time here in the latter days. The 70 weeks has nothing to do with the Messiah. Gabriel is answering the question of when the completion of the desolation is. The desolations are not completed until the Messiah comes down and His angels toss the fallen angels into the burning fire. The English translation say Messiah, but it is speaking about the anointed, the THE Messiah. The anointed are cut off/reaped/harvested/raptured at the end of the 70th week, which is 2026. |
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jp
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Post by jp on Apr 16, 2019 9:36:42 GMT -6
The original calendar that the Almighty gave to us, and since He does not change, it is the same, is the 364 day mathematical calendar. 52 weeks = 364 days. The days are always the same, the feasts are always on the same day.
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Post by kjs on Apr 16, 2019 9:54:05 GMT -6
davewatchman I watched the four minutes in the video you set aside (and if I understood it correctly) -- it seems to be claiming that Jesus would have to come again AND restore the people again.
IF THAT is WHAT it is saying (and again only watch 1:10 -1:15) -- then I SAY HOG-WASH!
Jesus is NOT coming again to perform again that same thing He already completed.
AS JESUS said on the Cross -- IT IS FINISHED
There all SIN was done away with ... IT is complete -- as Hebrews points out
Hebrews 10: 10 by which will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
IT never has to be repeated again.....
The video sounded like Jesus had to return and perform the SAME again.... and to that I say __ NO!
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jp
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Post by jp on Apr 16, 2019 10:09:08 GMT -6
So much could be said and unpacked here. I'll just start with a few small points:
1. The Messiah is cut off after the first 69 periods of seven (v. 26), not in the middle of the 70th period of seven (v. 27). A literal reading of Daniel 9:24–26 presents what I would consider to be an insurmountable problem with the no gap theory (and also the theory that Jesus is the 'he' of v. 27) if we take these Scriptures at face value.
2. The Messiah who is cut off "but not for Himself" is clearly Jesus (no Christians that I am aware of would argue otherwise). However, He is mentioned in v. 26a. It's later in the verse, that "the prince" whose people destroy the city and the holy [place] shows up, thus per rules of most recent mention, it is far more likely that the antecedent of 'he' in v. 27 is "the prince" in v. 26. This, among other contextual reasons, is why there is very little scholarship defending the view that Jesus is the 'he' in v. 27. Even many preterists and historicists differentiate between the Messiah and prince in v. 26.
Furthermore, whoever this "prince" is, his people destroy Jerusalem and the holy [place]. Whether this refers to the people of the Roman nation in general (Roman ancestry view) or the more recent views presented by Joel Richardson and Walid Shoebat (Syrian and Turkish conscripts), there is no historical or biblical basis whatsoever to say these people are the Jews. Thus the prince in v. 27 is not Jesus.
3. Jesus never made a seven year covenant. This has always been the elephant in the room to me when the suggestion is that the 'he' of v. 27 is Jesus. Suggesting he did, would be pure assumption and potentially worse. The covenant in His blood is everlasting.
4. Jesus didn't put an end to sacrifices at His death. Another elephant in the room. The continual sacrifices continued on for another ~37 years. Now someone might respond that He put an end to the need for sacrifices, but there are two major problems with that view: first, v. 27 plainly says this "prince" interrupts/ceases/ends sacrifices, not that he merely ended the pretext for them. Second, Hebrews 10 tells us quite plainly that the ancient sacrifices could never take away sins, even before Christ's atoning sacrifice (hence Jesus the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world).
5. There is nothing unscriptural about a gap that I'm aware of, in fact there are several examples of prophetic gaps including Isaiah 61:2, which actually occurs mid-verse. In Daniel 9 the text itself distinguishes between a first period of 49 years, a second period of 434, and a final period of 7.
6. Finally, the purpose of the prophecy is explicitly given (v. 24) for Daniel's people (the Jews) and his city (Jerusalem). At the completion of the 70th week: 1. the people and city will have finished transgression, 2. ended sin, 3. made reconciliation for iniquity, 4. brought in everlasting/continual righteousness, 5. sealed up vision and prophecy, and 6. anointed the Most Holy. None of these things have yet happened for the people or the city, thus the 70th week has not yet transpired.
Bolstering this point and going back to Isaiah 61:2, based on Luke 4:19 we see Jesus Himself bisecting Isaiah 61:2 by... [drum roll]... the current 2,000 year period of time we're living in that precedes the Day of the LORD.
Acts 15:14–18 provides the basis for this gap. God would first take "out of" the Gentiles a people for Himself... and only after that happens would the prophecy be fulfilled of Israel and Jerusalem's complete restoration. The entire chapter of Romans 11 unpacks this: Israel has been temporarily hardened until the full number (or some would say "fullness") of the Gentiles comes in.
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Last thing: jamie , welcome to the board! Glad you're here. No big deal, no harm meant, would just kindly ask you to refrain from comments like these (per rule #3):
Blessings!
So the administrator gets to insult "Christians," who believe a certain way, but we must allow our Almighty given, Constitutionally protected rights to be put on hold for our comments. I am a Christian, and I know that the 70 weeks has nothing to do with the Messiah. Gabriel is answering Daniel concerning the COMPLETION of the desolations. The desolations are not completed until the end of the wrath when the Messiah comes down for the war of the great day. You are trying to force the Hebrew word for anointed to mean the Messiah. It is not talking about the Messiah, it is talking about the anointed aka YOUR PEOPLE. It is not talking about Jews, it is speaking to the ANOINTED aka Spiritual Israel. 70 weeks are decreed for YOUR PEOPLE/the anointed/Spiritual Israel. After the 70 weeks, YOUR PEOPLE are cut off/reaped/harvested/raptured/redeemed/rescued….etc., but not for the city and sanctuary, because they must be trampled and DESOLATED. If you want to know what the Messiah is saying, you can not take the English at face value. The 70 weeks are the final 490 years for believers. It is mirroring the Jubilee, and the journey from Egypt to Mt Sinai. It is the believers journey to New Jerusalem. The 71st week is the week of wrath. 3.5 years for the wrath of the Lamb aka Trumpets, then the MARK is set up, and then 3.5 years for the wrath of the Almighty aka Bowls. The anointed cut off (70), THEN the final week aka the 71st week. Gabriel specifies that it is an endtime prophecy in Daniel 9:24 "seal up the vision." It is the same wording he used in Daniel 12:4, and 9. Daniel 12 was given before Daniel 9, so the precedent was set concerning what seal up means, it means it is for the time of the end, not for the time when the Messiah walked the earth. |
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Post by kjs on Apr 16, 2019 10:15:58 GMT -6
Hi jamie. Your time line has several errors the first of which is the calculation of the years. That is, occasionally the 360 day Hebrew calendar was adjusted by 30 days so that the barley would always be aviv (ripe) in the month of the Passover. So while most years were 360 days there was an occasional year that was 390 days. Consequently our calendar year of 365.25 days matches their 360/390 (combination calendar) days and the correction to your calculation would be as follows: 483 years X 360 days (not counting the occasional 13th month of 30 days that adjusts for the aviv) in the Persian (Hebrew) calendar (the one used at the time of this prophecy) = 173,880 days. 173,880 days / 365.25 days in a modern calendar = 476 years in a modern calendar. (A calculation that excludes 84 aviv, 13 month, adjustments totaling 7 years.)Therefore, in my opinion, the word years in the prophecy means years as in revolutions around the sun and no further calculation equating months from one calendar to another is necessary. In fact, the transfer of days from one calendar to another in which the occasional 13 month is removed as you have done in your calculations throws the prophecy off by seven years rendering the remainder of your analysis in error. Since your analysis is in error then your assumption may also be in error to wit:
"I believe it foretells the date of the Messiah’s death. Here's is the math."
Having said that, I do agree that the prophecy foretells the date of the Savior's death; however, I prefer the method of isolating that date first, and then applying the prophecy. Since all prophecy has multiple applications then all of Daniel's work applies to our period of time here in the latter days. The 70 weeks has nothing to do with the Messiah. Gabriel is answering the question of when the completion of the desolation is. The desolations are not completed until the Messiah comes down and His angels toss the fallen angels into the burning fire. The English translation say Messiah, but it is speaking about the anointed, the THE Messiah. The anointed are cut off/reaped/harvested/raptured at the end of the 70th week, which is 2026.
? ? ? ? WHAT ? ? ? ?
Let us repeat what Gabriel said to Daniel ....
Dan. 9:24 "Seventy weeks are decreed on your people and on your holy city...."
So Gabriel tells Daniel that 70 - 7's (or seventy -- 7 year time periods) have been decreed for the people of Israel and the Holy City (Jerusalem)
The following things will be accomplished "sometime during this time") 1) to finish disobedience
2) to make an end of sins
3) to make reconciliation for iniquity
4) to bring in everlasting righteousness 5) to seal up vision and prophecy 6) to anoint the most holy
To repeat during this period (490 Years) -- those six items have to be accomplished ....
Here is the ISSUE -- THE ANOINTED ONE (I believe that is Jesus the Christ -- or Jesus the Messiah) --- has His ministry interrupted by being "CUT OFF"
(again this is God's all over plan -- which we are only getting snip-its of it) Point's 1, 2, and 3 were completed the first time the Messiah (the Anointed one was here)
Points 4, 5, and 6 it appears will be fulfilled during or at the end of the 70th week.
Your claim is "The 70 weeks has nothing to do with the Messiah"....
Ok, technically, that is correct to a point -- the prophecy is specifically about the people of Israel AND the City Jerusalem. BUT the Messiah (the Anointed one) is the Implementer -- of the above 6 points -- without Him the six points would NOT be accomplished -- So in that sense -- It is ALL ABOUT THE Messiah's ACTIONS --- what He has and will accomplish.
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Post by kjs on Apr 16, 2019 10:44:08 GMT -6
So much could be said and unpacked here. I'll just start with a few small points:
1. The Messiah is cut off after the first 69 periods of seven (v. 26), not in the middle of the 70th period of seven (v. 27). A literal reading of Daniel 9:24–26 presents what I would consider to be an insurmountable problem with the no gap theory (and also the theory that Jesus is the 'he' of v. 27) if we take these Scriptures at face value.
2. The Messiah who is cut off "but not for Himself" is clearly Jesus (no Christians that I am aware of would argue otherwise). However, He is mentioned in v. 26a. It's later in the verse, that "the prince" whose people destroy the city and the holy [place] shows up, thus per rules of most recent mention, it is far more likely that the antecedent of 'he' in v. 27 is "the prince" in v. 26. This, among other contextual reasons, is why there is very little scholarship defending the view that Jesus is the 'he' in v. 27. Even many preterists and historicists differentiate between the Messiah and prince in v. 26.
Furthermore, whoever this "prince" is, his people destroy Jerusalem and the holy [place]. Whether this refers to the people of the Roman nation in general (Roman ancestry view) or the more recent views presented by Joel Richardson and Walid Shoebat (Syrian and Turkish conscripts), there is no historical or biblical basis whatsoever to say these people are the Jews. Thus the prince in v. 27 is not Jesus.
3. Jesus never made a seven year covenant. This has always been the elephant in the room to me when the suggestion is that the 'he' of v. 27 is Jesus. Suggesting he did, would be pure assumption and potentially worse. The covenant in His blood is everlasting.
4. Jesus didn't put an end to sacrifices at His death. Another elephant in the room. The continual sacrifices continued on for another ~37 years. Now someone might respond that He put an end to the need for sacrifices, but there are two major problems with that view: first, v. 27 plainly says this "prince" interrupts/ceases/ends sacrifices, not that he merely ended the pretext for them. Second, Hebrews 10 tells us quite plainly that the ancient sacrifices could never take away sins, even before Christ's atoning sacrifice (hence Jesus the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world).
5. There is nothing unscriptural about a gap that I'm aware of, in fact there are several examples of prophetic gaps including Isaiah 61:2, which actually occurs mid-verse. In Daniel 9 the text itself distinguishes between a first period of 49 years, a second period of 434, and a final period of 7.
6. Finally, the purpose of the prophecy is explicitly given (v. 24) for Daniel's people (the Jews) and his city (Jerusalem). At the completion of the 70th week: 1. the people and city will have finished transgression, 2. ended sin, 3. made reconciliation for iniquity, 4. brought in everlasting/continual righteousness, 5. sealed up vision and prophecy, and 6. anointed the Most Holy. None of these things have yet happened for the people or the city, thus the 70th week has not yet transpired.
Bolstering this point and going back to Isaiah 61:2, based on Luke 4:19 we see Jesus Himself bisecting Isaiah 61:2 by... [drum roll]... the current 2,000 year period of time we're living in that precedes the Day of the LORD.
Acts 15:14–18 provides the basis for this gap. God would first take "out of" the Gentiles a people for Himself... and only after that happens would the prophecy be fulfilled of Israel and Jerusalem's complete restoration. The entire chapter of Romans 11 unpacks this: Israel has been temporarily hardened until the full number (or some would say "fullness") of the Gentiles comes in.
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Last thing: jamie , welcome to the board! Glad you're here. No big deal, no harm meant, would just kindly ask you to refrain from comments like these (per rule #3):
Blessings!
So the administrator gets to insult "Christians," who believe a certain way, but we must allow our Almighty given, Constitutionally protected rights to be put on hold for our comments. I am a Christian, and I know that the 70 weeks has nothing to do with the Messiah. Gabriel is answering Daniel concerning the COMPLETION of the desolations. The desolations are not completed until the end of the wrath when the Messiah comes down for the war of the great day. You are trying to force the Hebrew word for anointed to mean the Messiah. It is not talking about the Messiah, it is talking about the anointed aka YOUR PEOPLE. It is not talking about Jews, it is speaking to the ANOINTED aka Spiritual Israel. 70 weeks are decreed for YOUR PEOPLE/the anointed/Spiritual Israel. After the 70 weeks, YOUR PEOPLE are cut off/reaped/harvested/raptured/redeemed/rescued….etc., but not for the city and sanctuary, because they must be trampled and DESOLATED. If you want to know what the Messiah is saying, you can not take the English at face value. The 70 weeks are the final 490 years for believers. It is mirroring the Jubilee, and the journey from Egypt to Mt Sinai. It is the believers journey to New Jerusalem. The 71st week is the week of wrath. 3.5 years for the wrath of the Lamb aka Trumpets, then the MARK is set up, and then 3.5 years for the wrath of the Almighty aka Bowls. The anointed cut off (70), THEN the final week aka the 71st week. Gabriel specifies that it is an endtime prophecy in Daniel 9:24 "seal up the vision." It is the same wording he used in Daniel 12:4, and 9. Daniel 12 was given before Daniel 9, so the precedent was set concerning what seal up means, it means it is for the time of the end, not for the time when the Messiah walked the earth.
jp -- Consider this your first warning .... YOU DO NOT HAVE "Constitutionally protected rights" for using this website -- if you using it you should have read the RULES (linked below)
read the rules first -- before claim you or someone else has rights......
Second, your claim the administrator insulted Jamie -- in what way? He simply pointed out his comment "I believe the 70th week stuff has been instrumental in misleading people." is borderline breaking rule 3
He never insulted, nor putdown, nor referenced anything about Jamie's character -- so in what way was an insult given?
Yes, he was shown points where he and the administrator disagree with each other; and at no point did the administrator claim Jamie was wrong -- simply because he had better knowledge.
Unlike Jamie who proclaimed far and wide -- that he (Jamie) has a better understanding of what the 70th week prophecy means -- and if you do not believe the same way your being mislead.
Finally, it appears your interpretation continues to insist that the 70th week prophecy is for Believers.... BUT
The actual TEXT SAYS "... Seventy weeks are decreed on your people and on your holy city,..." It is for the people of Israel and Jerusalem...
No where in the text does it indicate this prophecy is "for believers."
Finally, based on your summation -- it appears you have reserved the right to re-interrupted the prophecy to include 71 (or more) weeks (years?)
If that is indeed your summation -- please show scripture references -- which indicated the 70TH week Prophecy -- Now includes 71 (and possibly more?) weeks.........
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