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Post by venge on Apr 18, 2019 17:44:45 GMT -6
about the church being taken out of the way - my understanding - God has placed a partial hardening on the Jews because they had hardened their hearts and shut their eyes and ears (Acts 28:27-28), a veil remains over their hearts when they read the OT (2 Cor 3:14-16) (but it can be removed), this will last until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled (Rom 11:25). I see the "time of the Gentiles" as being the time of the church age. When the church age is over, the rapture takes place, and God finishes Israel's history. I think many will come to faith in Him through the 2 witnesses and the 144,000, plus seeing God do mighty things (Rev tells us people know that God is responsible). Kind of like OT times when He used prophets-- the church isn't necessary to witness and minister to the Jews during "Jacob's Trouble". I agree. I see the time of the gentiles ending at the 7th Trumpet. That completes the 42 months. The rapture happens, Christ begins to reign, Satan is sealed. The time for rewards to us and the time to destroy them who destroy the earth via the bowls. Remember that the gospel will go throughout the whole world and then the end will come. The 2 witnesses still share the gospel, the end cannot come till they finish and they are to do it for 42 months, the exact end time of the time of the gentiles which right after they are done is the 7th Trumpet sounds (where I place the 1st resurrection/rapture) I do agree with your analysis. |
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jp
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Post by jp on Apr 19, 2019 5:50:47 GMT -6
about the church being taken out of the way - my understanding - God has placed a partial hardening on the Jews because they had hardened their hearts and shut their eyes and ears (Acts 28:27-28), a veil remains over their hearts when they read the OT (2 Cor 3:14-16) (but it can be removed), this will last until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled (Rom 11:25). I see the "time of the Gentiles" as being the time of the church age. When the church age is over, the rapture takes place, and God finishes Israel's history. I think many will come to faith in Him through the 2 witnesses and the 144,000, plus seeing God do mighty things (Rev tells us people know that God is responsible). Kind of like OT times when He used prophets-- the church isn't necessary to witness and minister to the Jews during "Jacob's Trouble". I agree. I see the time of the gentiles ending at the 7th Trumpet. That completes the 42 months. The rapture happens, Christ begins to reign, Satan is sealed. The time for rewards to us and the time to destroy them who destroy the earth via the bowls. Remember that the gospel will go throughout the whole world and then the end will come. The 2 witnesses still share the gospel, the end cannot come till they finish and they are to do it for 42 months, the exact end time of the time of the gentiles which right after they are done is the 7th Trumpet sounds (where I place the 1st resurrection/rapture) I do agree with your analysis. There are 2 different times of the gentiles. The one has been fulfilled, and ALL of Israel has been already saved: 1. Galatians 4:4 tells us that the fullness of the gentiles came when Christ was born. It has already been fulfilled. 2. The hardening was only partial (Romans 11:25), meaning if some of the "Jews" did not have a hard heart, they would have all received the Messiah, like the thousands that believed, and they would not have crucified Him. There needed to be some with hard hearts, but after the crucifixion the partial hardening is not required, because it has been accomplished. 3. All Israel has already been saved = Romans 11:26-27 = the redeemer has already come, thus ALL Israel (bloodline) has the opportunity to be saved. 4. The gentiles of Rev 11 is not the same gentiles for the fullness. The gentiles of Rev 11 just means: 1484 Probably from etho; a race (as of the same habit), i.e. A tribe; specially, a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually, by implication, pagan) -- Gentile, heathen, nation, people. It is a foreign "tribe." When you understand what comes out of the abyss and tramples Jerusalem, it is clear that this "foreign tribe" is apollyon, his minions (centaurs), and the "thrown down" angels that give allegiance to him. They are the "gentiles" that trample Jerusalem under feet. Rev 11:2 = Daniel 8:11-13 Daniel 8:11 = the daily sacrifice (believers) being removed 1st = the Hebrew phrase in Daniel 8:11 "by him" means that the daily sacrifice (believers) are removed on account of his coming, meaning the beast does not do the removal, the removal occurs on account of his coming onto the scene = the day of redemption at the 7th Seal, because the beasts must be released for the "final period of indignation" Daniel 8:19, but the believers (daily sacrifice) must be removed 1st = 2 Thess 2:3 Daniel 8:11 sanctuary cast down, and Daniel 8:13 sanctuary trodden under foot = Rev 11:2, and it is accomplished by the beasts that "ascendeth out of the pit" (Rev 9:11, Rev 11:7, and Rev 17:8) = the little horn that has an appearance more STOUT than the other horns, and has EYES like the eyes of man (not a man) = Daniel 7:8 = Daniel 8:9, meaning the time of the gentiles in Rev 11 has nothing to do with the time of the gentiles receiving salvation from the redeemer. It is the time of the final consummation of judgment on the fallen angels. 2 Pet 2 4 For if God spared not THE ANGELS that sinned, but CAST THEM DOWN to hell, and DELIVERED THEM INTO CHAINS of darkness, to be RESERVED UNTO JUDGMENT; Jude 1 6 And THE ANGELS which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, HE HATH RESERVED IN EVERLASTING CHAINS under darkness UNTO the judgment of THE GREAT DAY. Rev 6 17 For THE GREAT DAY of his wrath IS COME; and who shall be able to stand? Rev 9 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and TO HIM WAS GIVEN THE KEY of the ABYSS. 2 And HE OPENED the ABYSS; 11 And they had a king over them, which is THE ANGEL OF THE ABYSS, Rev 11 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, THE BEAST THAT ASCENDETH OUT OF THE ABYSS shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. Rev 13 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and HIS DEADLY WOUND WAS HEALED: and all the world wondered after THE BEAST. 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him TO CONTINUE FORTY AND TWO MONTHS. Rev 17 8 THE BEAST that thou sawest was, and is not; and SHALL ASCEND OUT OF THE ABYSS, and go into perdition (perdition means to destroy, not peace) and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was (in Eden), and is not (in prison with chains/ABYSS), and yet is (released from the ABYSS for the final consummation of the judgment aka the death sentence to be carried out, which is when the Messiah comes down and the fallen angels get thrown into the burning fire). |
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Post by mike on Apr 19, 2019 6:07:14 GMT -6
jp The text here does not indicate that JP. You are retranslating verses to fit into your view, not aligning your view with the script. 4 and when the fullness of time did come, God sent forth His Son, come of a woman, come under law,This does not say the fullness of the gentiles, it is clearly time
5550 xrónos – time (in general), especially viewed in sequence (a "succession of moments"); time in duration in the physical-space world, sovereignly apportioned by God to each person. 5550 /xrónos ("time in sequence, duration") especially expresses time quantitatively – in contrast to 2450 /Ioudaízō ("opportune time") which portrays time qualitatively ("time as opportunity"). A note from Albert Barnes about "All Israel being saved"All Israel - All the Jews. It was a maxim among the Jews that "every Israelite should have part in the future age." (Grotius.) The apostle applies that maxim to his own purpose; and declares the sense in which it would be true. He does not mean to say that every Jew of every age would be saved; for he had proved that a large portion of them would be, in his time, rejected and lost. But the time would come when, as a people, they would be recovered; when the nation would turn to God; and when it could be said of them that, as a nation, they were restored to the divine favor. It is not clear that he means that even then every individual of them would be saved, but the body of them; the great mass of the nation would be. Nor is it said when this would be. This is one of the things which "the Father hath put in his own power;" Acts 1:7. He has given us the assurance that it shall be done to encourage us in our efforts to save them; and he has concealed the time when it shall be, lest we should relax our efforts, or feel that no exertions were needed to accomplish what must take place at a fixed time.
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jp
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Post by jp on Apr 19, 2019 8:14:11 GMT -6
jp The text here does not indicate that JP. You are retranslating verses to fit into your view, not aligning your view with the script. 4 and when the fullness of time did come, God sent forth His Son, come of a woman, come under law,This does not say the fullness of the gentiles, it is clearly time
5550 xrónos – time (in general), especially viewed in sequence (a "succession of moments"); time in duration in the physical-space world, sovereignly apportioned by God to each person. 5550 /xrónos ("time in sequence, duration") especially expresses time quantitatively – in contrast to 2450 /Ioudaízō ("opportune time") which portrays time qualitatively ("time as opportunity"). A note from Albert Barnes about "All Israel being saved"All Israel - All the Jews. It was a maxim among the Jews that "every Israelite should have part in the future age." (Grotius.) The apostle applies that maxim to his own purpose; and declares the sense in which it would be true. He does not mean to say that every Jew of every age would be saved; for he had proved that a large portion of them would be, in his time, rejected and lost. But the time would come when, as a people, they would be recovered; when the nation would turn to God; and when it could be said of them that, as a nation, they were restored to the divine favor. It is not clear that he means that even then every individual of them would be saved, but the body of them; the great mass of the nation would be. Nor is it said when this would be. This is one of the things which "the Father hath put in his own power;" Acts 1:7. He has given us the assurance that it shall be done to encourage us in our efforts to save them; and he has concealed the time when it shall be, lest we should relax our efforts, or feel that no exertions were needed to accomplish what must take place at a fixed time. You and I are going to disagree, if you think the bloodline of Jacob gets special treatment. I do not believe they get any special treatment, and i believe Romans 11:23 confirms it. The only door to the Almighty is through the Messiah, and they have to believe, just like everyone else. If you go back to Gal 3:28 and read through to Gal 4:5, you should be able to clearly see that Paul is referring to the fulness of the gentiles: Gal 3 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal 4 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the ADOPTION OF SONS. The gentiles (not of the bloodline of Israel/Jacob) needed Christ to come to become adopted sons, so to me, it is crystal clear that the fulness of the gentiles has already come, because the Almighty already sent forth His Son, and the Redeemer was already born. As far as ALL Israel being saved, once again, if you think this is future, we will disagree, because it is very clear to me that Romans 11:26-27 makes it clear when ALL Israel was saved. Romans 11 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, WHEN I SHALL TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS. When the Deliverer CAME (past tense) the covenant was fulfilled, when He took away the sin of the world, He took away their sins, thus ALL Israel has been saved, meaning they ALL have access. When you look into Greek for the word ALL, it is actually pointing to what Paul is saying in Galatians. ALL is pointing to both parts, meaning the bloodline of Jacob and the gentiles will be saved, which is exactly what Paul is saying in Galatians 3 and 4. ALL have access to be saved. It has already been completed. If you are trying to say Israel as a nation/country (State of Israel) is saved, then why would the Messiah tell those living in Judea at the time of the release of the beasts to FLEE? Matt 24:15-16, Mark 13:14, and Luke 21:20-21. Then after that point, it is trampled down for 3.5 years, which is the time of the Trumpets. Where would any saving occur? There is none. The beasts are conquering what is left of planet earth with ease, and there is no stoping them until the Messiah comes down at the end of the 7 years. Even the 144,000 are not spared from being killed. Once the beasts are released at the 5th and 6th Trumpets, there is no rescuing/saving. The final rescue occurs at the 7th Seal when the Messiah gathers His people into New Jerusalem prior to executing the war in heaven. From the point that the beasts are released until they set up the MARK, they are conquering and destroying everything except for the greater middle east aka the nations that the rebel angels are princes over. When they set up the MARK, there is no rescuing, the 144,000, and the NEW believers have to refuse the MARK and be KILLED. Then they get resurrected and then raptured, but they have to be KILLED 1st. Then from that point, that is the final separation of flesh, and the MARK is what creates babylon the great. Rev 14:13-16 is the NEW believers that refuse the MARK being killed and reaped, then they are seen in Rev 15:2, and the rest of humanity take the MARK, and are thrown into the winepress of the wrath of the Almighty, which is the Bowls, and it is finished when the Messiah comes down to tread the winepress for the war of the great day. The Messiah kills all, because all are wicked, and His angels throw the fallen angels into the burning fire, and they bind the rebel angels and throw them into prison/abyss. The final 3.5 years, there is only babylon the great, which is made up of the fallen angels, the rebel angels, and the enslaved humans who take the MARK, there is no more believers or Israel. The game is over at that point. Rev 14:9-11 confirm that there is no ability to obtain salvation after the MARK. Either you take it and loose your humanity, or you refuse it and are KILLED. My point is that there is no saving or rescuing after the 7th Seal, so i personally do not see where another interpretation of the ALL Israel being saved can be rational. |
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Post by Natalie on Apr 19, 2019 10:45:17 GMT -6
Romans 11:1 "I ask, then, has God rejected His people? By no means!" and 11:11-12 "So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!" and verse 15 "For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?"
If Romans 11:26-27 was past tense, why would Paul quote it is as something still future? Surely Paul would have said the Deliverer has already come and has banished ungodliness. No, the Deliverer is yet to come and cleanse them from all unrighteousness once and for all.
Also, if there are no believers or Israel left at the end of what you call the final 3.5 years, then many prophecies that are still unfulfilled will remain unfulfilled. Many promises that are left to Israel are left unfulfilled. It's not God's way to not finish what He started.
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Post by venge on Apr 19, 2019 12:17:15 GMT -6
I agree. I see the time of the gentiles ending at the 7th Trumpet. That completes the 42 months. The rapture happens, Christ begins to reign, Satan is sealed. The time for rewards to us and the time to destroy them who destroy the earth via the bowls. Remember that the gospel will go throughout the whole world and then the end will come. The 2 witnesses still share the gospel, the end cannot come till they finish and they are to do it for 42 months, the exact end time of the time of the gentiles which right after they are done is the 7th Trumpet sounds (where I place the 1st resurrection/rapture) I do agree with your analysis. There are 2 different times of the gentiles. The one has been fulfilled, and ALL of Israel has been already saved: 1. Galatians 4:4 tells us that the fullness of the gentiles came when Christ was born. It has already been fulfilled. I respectfully disagree. The verses state :
The verses are speaking of the removal from the law of sin to the law of Christ for our salvation. It is not talking about ending the fullness of the Gentiles which Christ eludes to in the later days via Matthew 24.
2. The hardening was only partial (Romans 11:25), meaning if some of the "Jews" did not have a hard heart, they would have all received the Messiah, like the thousands that believed, and they would not have crucified Him. There needed to be some with hard hearts, but after the crucifixion the partial hardening is not required, because it has been accomplished. I agree that the hardening was partial but Christ says to us believers:
3. All Israel has already been saved = Romans 11:26-27 = the redeemer has already come, thus ALL Israel (bloodline) has the opportunity to be saved. Disagree again. The verses state:Israel was not saved yet, it will eventually be saved. Paul was speaking of a future time regarding Christ when he comes at the 2nd advent. He will remove their iniquities after the tribulation. EDIT: removes their shame was intended and their iniquities would be removed by those that repent. I should have been more specific! lolI am reminded of 2 verses: The chapter speaks of the end to idolatry and the chapter before it speaks of them seeing the one they pierced. This hasn't happened yet. As it is, all future and not fulfilled as you say imo.4. The gentiles of Rev 11 is not the same gentiles for the fullness. The gentiles of Rev 11 just means: 1484 Probably from etho; a race (as of the same habit), i.e. A tribe; specially, a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually, by implication, pagan) -- Gentile, heathen, nation, people. It is a foreign "tribe." When you understand what comes out of the abyss and tramples Jerusalem, it is clear that this "foreign tribe" is apollyon, his minions (centaurs), and the "thrown down" angels that give allegiance to him. They are the "gentiles" that trample Jerusalem under feet. Sorry, I follow scripture and only scripture. I don't believe in "centaurs" and mythology as you're speaking of. I am not even going to get into a proper definition of Apollyon or Abaddon in this thread. But I disagree 100% with that statement. We can disagree....Rev 11:2 = Daniel 8:11-13 Daniel 8:11 = the daily sacrifice (believers) being removed 1st = the Hebrew phrase in Daniel 8:11 "by him" means that the daily sacrifice (believers) are removed on account of his coming, meaning the beast does not do the removal, the removal occurs on account of his coming onto the scene = the day of redemption at the 7th Seal, because the beasts must be released for the "final period of indignation" Daniel 8:19, but the believers (daily sacrifice) must be removed 1st = 2 Thess 2:3 Confused here. Technically its the removal of the daily. Sacrifice was added I believe. yet, Daniel also mentions the sacrifice and oblation are removed. Regardless, I do not take sacrifice as removal of believers. I have no idea where you get that. Some believe its the old Jewish customs on the alter they remove, I disagree with that as well. I believe the sacrifice is prayer as we are to be a living sacrifice and we raise our hands up like the evening sacrifice in prayer (can ref. Psalms and Proverbs). Oblation is worship. I take it as removing Prayer and worship, which is basically a big part of Christianity and its is the SAME thing done to Daniel, Meshach, Abed-Nego and Shadrach!Daniel 8:11 sanctuary cast down, and Daniel 8:13 sanctuary trodden under foot = Rev 11:2, and it is accomplished by the beasts that "ascendeth out of the pit" (Rev 9:11, Rev 11:7, and Rev 17:8) = the little horn that has an appearance more STOUT than the other horns, and has EYES like the eyes of man (not a man) = Daniel 7:8 = Daniel 8:9, meaning the time of the gentiles in Rev 11 has nothing to do with the time of the gentiles receiving salvation from the redeemer. It is the time of the final consummation of judgment on the fallen angels. I just don't see this your way with the scripture you placed and your reasoning. The horns are always men, kings, priests, leaders etc...When Daniels friends were in the fire and they said "one like the son of man" in the fire...are you saying that wasn't Christ either who is a man! Tell me, when the text says "eyes like a man" what does that mean to you outside of what you wrote. What does it mean in scripture to have eyes like a man? Just like when we see the Cherub's have the face like a man, or the face of an eagle, or the face of an ox etc...
2 Pet 2 4 For if God spared not THE ANGELS that sinned, but CAST THEM DOWN to hell, and DELIVERED THEM INTO CHAINS of darkness, to be RESERVED UNTO JUDGMENT; Jude 1 6 And THE ANGELS which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, HE HATH RESERVED IN EVERLASTING CHAINS under darkness UNTO the judgment of THE GREAT DAY. Rev 6 17 For THE GREAT DAY of his wrath IS COME; and who shall be able to stand? Rev 9 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and TO HIM WAS GIVEN THE KEY of the ABYSS. 2 And HE OPENED the ABYSS; 11 And they had a king over them, which is THE ANGEL OF THE ABYSS, Rev 11 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, THE BEAST THAT ASCENDETH OUT OF THE ABYSS shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. Rev 13 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and HIS DEADLY WOUND WAS HEALED: and all the world wondered after THE BEAST. 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him TO CONTINUE FORTY AND TWO MONTHS. Rev 17 8 THE BEAST that thou sawest was, and is not; and SHALL ASCEND OUT OF THE ABYSS, and go into perdition (perdition means to destroy, not peace) and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was (in Eden), and is not (in prison with chains/ABYSS), and yet is (released from the ABYSS for the final consummation of the judgment aka the death sentence to be carried out, which is when the Messiah comes down and the fallen angels get thrown into the burning fire). |
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Post by cwood85 on Apr 19, 2019 20:27:41 GMT -6
So much could be said and unpacked here. I'll just start with a few small points:
1. The Messiah is cut off after the first 69 periods of seven (v. 26), not in the middle of the 70th period of seven (v. 27). A literal reading of Daniel 9:24–26 presents what I would consider to be an insurmountable problem with the no gap theory (and also the theory that Jesus is the 'he' of v. 27) if we take these Scriptures at face value.
2. The Messiah who is cut off "but not for Himself" is clearly Jesus (no Christians that I am aware of would argue otherwise). However, He is mentioned in v. 26a. It's later in the verse, that "the prince" whose people destroy the city and the holy [place] shows up, thus per rules of most recent mention, it is far more likely that the antecedent of 'he' in v. 27 is "the prince" in v. 26. This, among other contextual reasons, is why there is very little scholarship defending the view that Jesus is the 'he' in v. 27. Even many preterists and historicists differentiate between the Messiah and prince in v. 26.
Furthermore, whoever this "prince" is, his people destroy Jerusalem and the holy [place]. Whether this refers to the people of the Roman nation in general (Roman ancestry view) or the more recent views presented by Joel Richardson and Walid Shoebat (Syrian and Turkish conscripts), there is no historical or biblical basis whatsoever to say these people are the Jews. Thus the prince in v. 27 is not Jesus.
3. Jesus never made a seven year covenant. This has always been the elephant in the room to me when the suggestion is that the 'he' of v. 27 is Jesus. Suggesting he did, would be pure assumption and potentially worse. The covenant in His blood is everlasting.
4. Jesus didn't put an end to sacrifices at His death. Another elephant in the room. The continual sacrifices continued on for another ~37 years. Now someone might respond that He put an end to the need for sacrifices, but there are two major problems with that view: first, v. 27 plainly says this "prince" interrupts/ceases/ends sacrifices, not that he merely ended the pretext for them. Second, Hebrews 10 tells us quite plainly that the ancient sacrifices could never take away sins, even before Christ's atoning sacrifice (hence Jesus the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world).
^^^^^^^ Ummm yes he did put an end to sacrificing. This word for end here is not something that is stopped or ended by a means of force or intimidation. The word and the way is is used here is an end or ceasing by an act that completed or perfected and resulted in its end. In other words it was done so well and perfect, nothing can do it better so it is ceased and at its end. Like trying to perfect one of Beethovens symphonies. Can’t be done and when he died, it out an end to anymore symphonies being written by him. This isn’t an elephant in the room, but a purposefully difficult passage. Closely studying the original language and how the words are used reveals a lot.
Also if Hebrews says the sacrifices could never take away sin (I understand we know this now) than why would it matter if they are supposedly stopped at some future date? The only people who would care is the nation of Israel and even now they are only doing sacrifices a couple times a year. They have not been able to do them for thousands of years up until just a few years ago. The rest of the world would not care if someone came in and took away their ability to sacrifice. If anything it would make a whole heap load of animal activists very happy
There is only one being that perfected and completed the sacrifices. He was the final and perfect unblemished lamb 💓
5. There is nothing unscriptural about a gap that I'm aware of, in fact there are several examples of prophetic gaps including Isaiah 61:2, which actually occurs mid-verse. In Daniel 9 the text itself distinguishes between a first period of 49 years, a second period of 434, and a final period of 7.
6. Finally, the purpose of the prophecy is explicitly given (v. 24) for Daniel's people (the Jews) and his city (Jerusalem). At the completion of the 70th week: 1. the people and city will have finished transgression, 2. ended sin, 3. made reconciliation for iniquity, 4. brought in everlasting/continual righteousness, 5. sealed up vision and prophecy, and 6. anointed the Most Holy. None of these things have yet happened for the people or the city, thus the 70th week has not yet transpired.
Bolstering this point and going back to Isaiah 61:2, based on Luke 4:19 we see Jesus Himself bisecting Isaiah 61:2 by... [drum roll]... the current 2,000 year period of time we're living in that precedes the Day of the LORD.
Acts 15:14–18 provides the basis for this gap. God would first take "out of" the Gentiles a people for Himself... and only after that happens would the prophecy be fulfilled of Israel and Jerusalem's complete restoration. The entire chapter of Romans 11 unpacks this: Israel has been temporarily hardened until the full number (or some would say "fullness") of the Gentiles comes in.
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Last thing: jamie , welcome to the board! Glad you're here. No big deal, no harm meant, would just kindly ask you to refrain from comments like these (per rule #3):
Blessings! 
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Post by williaml on Apr 23, 2019 10:47:24 GMT -6
Here is your answer: One issue that has rightly troubled many commentators is the gap in time, presumed by both the future and historical views, between the end of the 69 weeks of years and the beginning of the 70th. Some few people believe there was no gap, and the last seven (or three and one-half) years immediately followed the death of Jesus. However, they can provide no plausible argument for the fulfillment of the seven events prophesied by verses 26b-27. Nothing of the kind occurred in the 30s A.D. Likewise, the future view has no convincing biblical argument for a nearly 2000-year gap. The historical view does provide a legitimate reason for a gap, however, which is this: 40 years (or days) was Godʼs standard period for the testing of His people Israelʼs obedience. In particular, God tested Israelʼs faithfulness for 40 years after they entered into the Mosaic Covenant at Mount Sinai. All the Israelites of adult age who failed that test died. God likewise allotted 40 years to test whether the Jewish people, and especially their religious leaders, would accept or reject Christ’s New Covenant. After those 40 years were fulfilled, the rebels against the New Covenant had their holy city and Temple destroyed, which effectively ended many mandated practices of the Old Covenant. That covenant required both a Temple and a place to gather for the yearly festivals of the Law. Both places were destroyed, and the Temple was never rebuilt. -- taken from part of my extremely-detailed seven-part series on Daniel 9:24-27. This quote is from the 7th in the series, found here:https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1611-daniel-924-27-examined-part-7-were-verses-26b-27-fulfilled-historically/ The typical futurist version of Daniel's 70th week found in ch. 9:24-27 presents several issues.
Why would the prophecy of “seventy weeks indicate anything but 70 sequential weeks? Why would this biblical time period start, then stop at what the experts call a 'gap,' and then start up again some 2000 years later? |
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Post by williaml on Apr 23, 2019 10:52:59 GMT -6
Daniel 9:24-27 Examined, Part 6: Do Verses 26b-27 Prophesy Future Events? Daniel 9:26b “…and people of a leader/commander, the one coming in, he shall cause to destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end shall be with a flood of attackers, and unto an end of battle/warfare, desolations being decreed. 27 And he shall cause to prevail/confirm (or, shall make strong) a covenant for the multitude one week; and in the midst/middle of the week, he shall cause to cease blood sacrifice and offering. And upon/over a wing/corner shall be abominations/idols of a destroyer, even until a (the) consummation/complete end so having been decreed shall be poured out upon a desolator.” These verses speak about a number of very specific events, and three specific people. An itemization: 1) A commander of a military force shall cause his army to destroy both Jerusalem and its Sanctuary. 2) That commander shall come/go in – in context, into the Land of Israel. 3) The Sanctuary shall be overwhelmed by a flood of attackers. 4) The commander shall cause his people to make or confirm some kind of covenant with a multitude of the people of Israel for seven years. 5) Either approximately or exactly (the Hebrew text allows for either) in the middle of the seven years, the commander shall be the cause of an end to blood sacrifice and other offerings. 6) “An intensive desolator” = “a destroyer” shall commit abominations, and/or bring idols over or upon a wing/corner of the Temple. Nothing indicates that this destroyer is the commander 7) That idolatry shall continue until a complete end, one having been decreed or determined at some point, shall be “poured out upon a desolator.” This water metaphor “poured out” hearkens back to verse 26ʼs words “its [the Sanctuaryʼs] end shall be with a flood.” Likewise, the ʻdecreed endʼ of verse 27 likely refers back to the ʻdecreed desolationsʼ of verse 26, at least in part. * * * Most American commentators say that all of these events shall be fulfilled by “the Antichrist” sometime in the future. However, the secondary scriptures that they provide to actually support their assertions are few, and questionable at best. Instead, their arguments rely on a great deal of unsupported presumptions. Starting from the top of the list: 1) They can provide no scripture that prophesies the rebuilding of the Temple prior to the Second Coming of the Messiah. Also, they can provide no scripture that says Jerusalem will be destroyed in the End Times. (Damaged, yes; destroyed, no.) Daniel 9:24-27 makes no mention at all of “end times,” “latter days,” or any similar term that unequivocally points to the seven events being fulfilled in OUR Latter Days. 2) Daniel 11:40-45 does say that an End Time commander/leader, “the King of the North,” shall enter and occupy the Holy Land. But nothing in that passage speaks anything about a Temple – a notable omission, if one were to actually exist. 3) Likewise, nothing in that passage says anything about the Sanctuary being overwhelmed and destroyed. And the proponents of “the Antichrist” theory can provide no other scripture that says that either. 4) Neither can they provide any secondary scripture that prophesies a 7-year covenant in the End Times, or even mentions any such 7-year event. 5) Plenty of presumptions are offered that string together two 1260-day prophecies (of which there are a number), which theories purport to prove there is a 7-year period broken exactly in its middle when “the Antichrist” reneges on his covenant. But, like the witnesses that testified against Jesus at his trial, “their testimonies [do] not agree” with each other. Mark 14:56 Also, they can provide no secondary scripture that speaks about blood-sacrifice [זֶבַח] being resumed before the return of the Messiah. Daniel 12:11 does not use this term; 9:27 has its only use in Daniel. 6) They can provide no secondary prophecy about idol worship taking place somewhere on the edges/extremities of a Latter-Day Temple or Sanctuary. (Within such a sanctified place, yes: Matthew 24:15 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4. Outside of such place, no.) 7) There are scriptures that say the King of the North will “come to his end” in the End Times, as will 2 Thessalonians 2ʼs Son of Perdition, and also the Little Horn of Daniel 7. However, the context of Daniel 9:26b-27 indicates that “the one coming in” is a commander who causes an army of his people to overwhelm and pour out destruction on someone else who has already brought desolation. But nothing in the passage says anything at all about the commander himself being overcome. That, however, is what most proponents of “the Antichrist” theory claim to be the case. Summary Those that say Daniel 9:26b-27 prophesies future events concerning “the Antichrist” have no unequivocal evidence from other biblical texts which witness to an End Time fulfillment of 26b-27ʼs seven specific prophecies. What little they offer, mainly having to do with #7 above, is ambiguous and contradictory. So in sum, it is evident that this theory is based upon a great deal of speculation and presumption (sand), but lacks any solid scriptural foundation (rock). The next article will examine the view that Daniel 9:26b-27 was fulfilled historically. www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1605-daniel-924-27-examined-part-6-do-verses-26b-27-prophesy-future-events/ |
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Post by williaml on Apr 25, 2019 15:04:34 GMT -6
Might as well put up the main part of "the next article" mentioned above: Daniel 9:24-27 Examined, Part 7: Were Verses 26b-27 Fulfilled Historically? Here is some of the historical viewʼs evidence, showing that Daniel 9:26b-27ʼs seven specific prophecies have already been fulfilled: 1-2) Vespasian, a widely-revered Roman military commander, arrived in the Holy Land in early 67 A.D. Emperor Nero had sent him to quell a revolt begun in 66 by many of the Jews against their corrupt Roman overlords. Vespasian established (caused) these two Roman policies for the duration of the Jewish War of 66/67-73: I) Any Jew who peacefully re-submitted to Romeʼs authority was to be spared, and be allowed to live in peace. See #4 below. II) Any Jew who continued to resist that authority was to be ruthlessly subdued. In the Spring, Vespasian, accompanied by his son Titus, three legions, and auxiliary troops altogether amounting to more than 60,000 men, began to war against the rebels in Galilee. 1, 3) Vespasianʼs policy #II ultimately caused the Roman army to destroy both Jerusalem and its Sanctuary, because the Jewish rebels continued to use both places as fortresses of defense. 4) Vespasian, by means of his policy #I, made covenants of peace with a number of important non-resisting cities. Essentially, he was merely “confirming” Romeʼs original covenant with the Jews, which allowed them – uniquely among the peoples of the Empire – to practice only their own mono-theistic religion, provided that they submitted to Roman civil authority. According to the record by Josephus, The Jewish War, Whiston version; Preface 8: [Vespasian] took…some of its [Galilee’s] cities by treaties, and on terms. III:2:4 …the inhabitants of Sepphoris…the largest city of Galilee…received Vespasian, the Roman general, very kindly, and readily promised that they would assist him… III:9:8 Now the seniors of the people [of Tiberius]…fell down before Vespasian, to supplicate his favor… Vespasian…accepted of their rights hands by way of security…[and] the citizens opened to him their gates… 5) Right about 3½ years/1260 days after Vespasianʼs “coming in” to the land, blood sacrifice [זֶבַח] ceased in the Temple on Tammuz 17 = July 15, 70 A.D. This was a consequence of the Roman armyʼs siege and warfare against Jerusalem, which had caused severe famine and great loss of life. VI:2:1 …on that very day, which was the seventeenth day of Panemus, [Tamuz,] the sacrifice called “the Daily Sacrifice” had failed, and had not been offered to God, for want of men to offer it, and that the people were grievously troubled at it… 6) Six months earlier, Vespasian had turned over his military command to his son Titus, who continued the war under Vespasianʼs original policies. Vespasian then went to Rome, having been proclaimed the new Emperor by the Senate. Under Titus, in early July the Romans captured the fortress-tower of Antonia on the northwest כְּנַף/corner of the Temple Mount. War V:5:8; VI:1:7 It provided access to the Temple complex via a narrow passage, which led “as far as the corner of the inner court of the Temple.” VI:1:8 This tower was elevated עַל/above/over the Temple, which allowed the Romans to look down upon the Temple and its courts. VI:1:5; 2:5 The “abominations of a destroyer” that ensued consisted of the most savage combat between Romans and Jews, including instances of Jewish fratricide; piles of corpses within the Temple complex; and the Jews and then the Romans setting fire to the Temple’s own cloisters across from the Roman-occupied Antonia. Also, the Romans began bringing their idolatrous ensigns (Aquilae), to which sacrifices were offered, into the Antonia Tower, and then into the Temple precincts. VI:1:7; 6:1 They were called Aquilae because of the eagle perched on top of them, a symbol of Jupiter. VI:Endnote 24 …Tertullian truly says in his Apologetic…that the entire religion of the Roman camp almost consisted in worshipping the ensigns, in swearing by the ensigns, and in preferring the ensigns before all the [other] gods. The destruction by fire of the Temple occurred during its capture on Ab 9/10 = August 4/5; followed by the destruction of upper Jerusalem (Zion) in early September. Thus Titus fulfilled the prophecy of “abominations/idolatry of a destroyer.” 7) A Jew named John of Gischala was the leader of a group of Zealots who had originally taken control over and ruthlessly dominated Jerusalem. II:21:1 [He was] a treacherous person…and for wicked practices he had not his fellow any where. …[H]e laid waste all Galilee… IV:3:13 Now it was John who…was the occasion of all these [the party of the moderate High Priest Ananus in Jerusalem] being destroyed. He was a man of great craft, and bore about him in his soul a strong passion after tyranny… By 70 A.D., Johnʼs Zealots had lost control over the city to another rebel leader, Simon, but still held the rebels’ highest and most fortified ground, that of the Temple complex. When the Romans ultimately came in “with a flood” of attackers to overwhelm the highly fortified inner courts and Sanctuary, “the consummation/end having been decreed” was “poured out upon [this] desolator.” Summary Simply stated, every one of the seven specific events prophesied by Daniel 9:26b-27 are found to be well-fulfilled by the events of the 7-year Jewish War of 66/67-73 A.D. The last stronghold of the Jewish rebellion, Masada, fell in 73. Roman military rule over Judea ended not long afterward, and civilian rule was re-instituted. Daniel 9:26b-27 prophesied three different men to come: a leader/commander of an army, a destroyer, and a desolator. Vespasian fulfilled the first prophecy, Titus the second, and John the Zealot the third. www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1611-daniel-924-27-examined-part-7-were-verses-26b-27-fulfilled-historically/ |
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Post by mike on Apr 25, 2019 17:51:01 GMT -6
Very good information williaml (is that an "I" or an "L" at the end of your name?).
Question - so if that sequence fulfills Dan 9:26-27 and there is no 70th week to be fulfilled how do you
1. view the roughly 2000 yrs "gap" between that event and today? (I'm thinking basically no different, we are waiting either way)
2. view the events of our time? Do you believe other OT prophecies have been fulfilled already such as Psalm 83, Isa 17, Eze 38-39 and others?
3. Is there still a 7 yr sequence to be fulfilled from Revelation?
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Post by mike on Apr 26, 2019 8:20:57 GMT -6
I agree Jamie. I'm mindful of Damascus and what is happening over there, for sure.
I suppose that if the 7 years (70th week) is fulfilled then we may just have the 1260 days kicking off at any given time.
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Post by venge on Apr 27, 2019 10:34:11 GMT -6
Might as well put up the main part of "the next article" mentioned above: Daniel 9:24-27 Examined, Part 7: Were Verses 26b-27 Fulfilled Historically? Here is some of the historical viewʼs evidence, showing that Daniel 9:26b-27ʼs seven specific prophecies have already been fulfilled: 1-2) Vespasian, a widely-revered Roman military commander, arrived in the Holy Land in early 67 A.D. Emperor Nero had sent him to quell a revolt begun in 66 by many of the Jews against their corrupt Roman overlords. Vespasian established (caused) these two Roman policies for the duration of the Jewish War of 66/67-73: I) Any Jew who peacefully re-submitted to Romeʼs authority was to be spared, and be allowed to live in peace. See #4 below. II) Any Jew who continued to resist that authority was to be ruthlessly subdued. In the Spring, Vespasian, accompanied by his son Titus, three legions, and auxiliary troops altogether amounting to more than 60,000 men, began to war against the rebels in Galilee. 1, 3) Vespasianʼs policy #II ultimately caused the Roman army to destroy both Jerusalem and its Sanctuary, because the Jewish rebels continued to use both places as fortresses of defense. 4) Vespasian, by means of his policy #I, made covenants of peace with a number of important non-resisting cities. Essentially, he was merely “confirming” Romeʼs original covenant with the Jews, which allowed them – uniquely among the peoples of the Empire – to practice only their own mono-theistic religion, provided that they submitted to Roman civil authority. According to the record by Josephus, The Jewish War, Whiston version; Preface 8: [Vespasian] took…some of its [Galilee’s] cities by treaties, and on terms. III:2:4 …the inhabitants of Sepphoris…the largest city of Galilee…received Vespasian, the Roman general, very kindly, and readily promised that they would assist him… III:9:8 Now the seniors of the people [of Tiberius]…fell down before Vespasian, to supplicate his favor… Vespasian…accepted of their rights hands by way of security…[and] the citizens opened to him their gates… 5) Right about 3½ years/1260 days after Vespasianʼs “coming in” to the land, blood sacrifice [זֶבַח] ceased in the Temple on Tammuz 17 = July 15, 70 A.D. This was a consequence of the Roman armyʼs siege and warfare against Jerusalem, which had caused severe famine and great loss of life. VI:2:1 …on that very day, which was the seventeenth day of Panemus, [Tamuz,] the sacrifice called “the Daily Sacrifice” had failed, and had not been offered to God, for want of men to offer it, and that the people were grievously troubled at it… 6) Six months earlier, Vespasian had turned over his military command to his son Titus, who continued the war under Vespasianʼs original policies. Vespasian then went to Rome, having been proclaimed the new Emperor by the Senate. Under Titus, in early July the Romans captured the fortress-tower of Antonia on the northwest כְּנַף/corner of the Temple Mount. War V:5:8; VI:1:7 It provided access to the Temple complex via a narrow passage, which led “as far as the corner of the inner court of the Temple.” VI:1:8 This tower was elevated עַל/above/over the Temple, which allowed the Romans to look down upon the Temple and its courts. VI:1:5; 2:5 The “abominations of a destroyer” that ensued consisted of the most savage combat between Romans and Jews, including instances of Jewish fratricide; piles of corpses within the Temple complex; and the Jews and then the Romans setting fire to the Temple’s own cloisters across from the Roman-occupied Antonia. Also, the Romans began bringing their idolatrous ensigns (Aquilae), to which sacrifices were offered, into the Antonia Tower, and then into the Temple precincts. VI:1:7; 6:1 They were called Aquilae because of the eagle perched on top of them, a symbol of Jupiter. VI:Endnote 24 …Tertullian truly says in his Apologetic…that the entire religion of the Roman camp almost consisted in worshipping the ensigns, in swearing by the ensigns, and in preferring the ensigns before all the [other] gods. The destruction by fire of the Temple occurred during its capture on Ab 9/10 = August 4/5; followed by the destruction of upper Jerusalem (Zion) in early September. Thus Titus fulfilled the prophecy of “abominations/idolatry of a destroyer.” 7) A Jew named John of Gischala was the leader of a group of Zealots who had originally taken control over and ruthlessly dominated Jerusalem. II:21:1 [He was] a treacherous person…and for wicked practices he had not his fellow any where. …[H]e laid waste all Galilee… IV:3:13 Now it was John who…was the occasion of all these [the party of the moderate High Priest Ananus in Jerusalem] being destroyed. He was a man of great craft, and bore about him in his soul a strong passion after tyranny… By 70 A.D., Johnʼs Zealots had lost control over the city to another rebel leader, Simon, but still held the rebels’ highest and most fortified ground, that of the Temple complex. When the Romans ultimately came in “with a flood” of attackers to overwhelm the highly fortified inner courts and Sanctuary, “the consummation/end having been decreed” was “poured out upon [this] desolator.” Summary Simply stated, every one of the seven specific events prophesied by Daniel 9:26b-27 are found to be well-fulfilled by the events of the 7-year Jewish War of 66/67-73 A.D. The last stronghold of the Jewish rebellion, Masada, fell in 73. Roman military rule over Judea ended not long afterward, and civilian rule was re-instituted. Daniel 9:26b-27 prophesied three different men to come: a leader/commander of an army, a destroyer, and a desolator. Vespasian fulfilled the first prophecy, Titus the second, and John the Zealot the third. www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1611-daniel-924-27-examined-part-7-were-verses-26b-27-fulfilled-historically/All these are valid points and I have read some of them before. If the 70 weeks are completed, why is there 42 months left in Revelation? The only place we see 42 months that I recall is Daniel, half of a week. If it is not related to Daniel then where? |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Apr 30, 2019 21:38:54 GMT -6
so I forgot we were talking about this topic.
I ask to all for the sake of sakes, why does any of Revelation HAVE to match Daniel? And, please show me where the exact matches between Daniel and Rev..
I do know that Ch 12 of Daniel DOES refer to the End. And those rising to eternal life and those to everlasting contempt FITS Ch 20 of Rev. Other than that, help me out. I want a lesson here.
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Post by boraddict on May 1, 2019 1:21:06 GMT -6
so I forgot we were talking about this topic. I ask to all for the sake of sakes, why does any of Revelation HAVE to match Daniel? And, please show me where the exact matches between Daniel and Rev.. I do know that Ch 12 of Daniel DOES refer to the End. And those rising to eternal life and those to everlasting contempt FITS Ch 20 of Rev. Other than that, help me out. I want a lesson here. Hi Barb. The Book of Daniel begins with Judah taken into captivity (Dan. 1:1) and ends with Judah being freed (Dan. 12:1); whereas, The Book of Revelation begins with the message to the servants of God (Rev. 1:1) and ends with Christ upon the earth (Rev. 22:1). So if you consider the two parts of the kingdom being Judah and Ephraim then Daniel is to Judah as Revelation is to Ephraim. Thus, the ending times effect Judah as stated in Daniel and also effect Ephraim as stated in Revelation. Thus the two books overlap because they are speaking about the same time-period albeit to two different groups of people. As you may know, Ephraim is the church of Christ here in the latter days. So Revelation is speaking to you and I as in the body of Christ, and Daniel on the other hand is speaking to the Jews. The two books overlap at numerous places like at Neb.'s dream in Dan. Chapter 2 overlapping at Revelation Chapter 17, and the beasts in Dan. Chapter 7 overlapping at Rev. Chapter 13. However, the most prominent overlap is Michael of Dan. Chapter 12 that is throughout Revelation as the angel whom speaks loudly that is showing John the visionary message that he in turn explains to us. So, if you take the two books chronologically, then Revelation fits in at Dan. 12:1 where Michael speaks to Judah via the Christians having received his message in Revelation. That is, although the two books overlap with regard to coming events, they are chronological with regard to Michael giving the message (Dan. 12:1) to Judah via Ephraim. So what is the message? Anyone? What is the message that Ephraim is supposed to give to Judah that restores Judah to the family of God? Bueller? Anyone? In my opinion Rev. 11:3 links to Rev. 14:1 telling us that the 144,000 of Ephraim stand with Christ as lead by Michael and John teaching the gospel message to Judah for 3.5 years. The message to Judah is that the Savior they are looking for is Jesus Christ. Please consider that Michael and John may not actually be physically there; however, the message they gave in The Book of Revelation instructs their army, the 144,000, to be in Jerusalem. This army is exclusively Christian having some of each of the 12 tribes contained within its ranks (Rev. 7). Thus it is a shadow of Gideon holding at bay an enemy of 200 million (Rev. 9:16). Either these Christians are there now, or they will be taken there during the pre-trib rapture. |
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