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Post by kjs on May 27, 2019 7:38:22 GMT -6
Most Christians believe the last date is the appropriate date because of the very popular and almost sacred calculations by Sir Robert Anderson where he has the decree of 445 BC and then Jesus dying April 6 32 AD
Sorry barbiosheepgirl -- I cannot remain quiet while you "re-align" "facts" to prove your points.....
First Sir Robert Anderson never SAID "Jesus dying April 6 32 AD" --- His calculation showed Jesus rode into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday --- allowing Himself to be proclaimed as the "King"
The first Palm Sunday occurred Nisan 10th -- which is the day the Lamb was selected for Sacrifice -- with the crucifixion taken place on Nisan 14th (which was a Thursday)....
(and I could go on and on about the Holy Week -- but will save that for another thread)
Now was it the year 32AD -- I have no facts to "prove it one way or another" -- We can be 100% confident (based on the "ruler histories" of those alive during Jesus Lifetime)
That Jesus Ministry timeline took place between 28AD and 34AD (again another thread to prove that time line - which proves who was ruling, when John Baptist killed, when Pilate was in Jerusalem...)
Now MOST experts place the year of Crucifixion in the early 30s (with the earliest being 28 and latest being 34) -- we do have 100% proof it did not occur on a Friday -- since John 19:31 tells us it was High Sabbath -- why the body had to be down by sunset)
So the claim by Sir Robert Anderson "Jesus presented Himself as King. It occurred on April 6, 32 AD" -- this ENDED the 69th week.
SO DEATH (and later resurrection) occurred based upon the Lamb Selection (which occurred always on 10th -- and Passover which was always on 14th).....
Year - I can take or leave but we can say with 100% (since scripture tells us) the DEATH happen after week 69 and BEFORE week 70!
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Post by kjs on May 27, 2019 8:03:04 GMT -6
Daniel's 70 Weeks - Quick History summaryJust to summarize the historic numbers: Three possible starting dates: 534 bc: Cyrus - Ezra 2 458 bc: Artaxerxes - Ezra 7 445 bc: Artaxerxes - Neh 2 Plotting each of these against the possible years of Jesus' death (assuming we didn't know), and using a 10 year span to pinpoint the "week" 534 bc: Cyrus - Ezra 2 458 bc: Artaxerxes - Ezra 7 445 bc: Artaxerxes - Neh 2 534 to 26 ad = 559 534 to 36 ad = 569 So this date is completely out of range of 490 years. 445 to 26 ad = 470 445 to 36 ad = 480 Not completely out of sync, but also not close enough. 458 to 26 ad = 483 458 to 36 ad = 493 This matches perfectly if the beginning of the 70th week was 26 ad. This then places the 70th week between the years of 26 ad and 33 ad. In 409 bc the rebuilding was complete. That was 7 "weeks" after this date. But also, we see that Ezra left Babylon in the first month, and arrived in the 5th month: Ezr 7:8 And he came to Jerusalem in the fifth month, which was in the seventh year of the king.
Ezr 7:9 For upon the first day of the first month began he to go up from Babylon, and on the first day of the fifth month came he to Jerusalem, according to the good hand of his God upon him.
Ezr 7:10 For Ezra had prepared his heart to seek the law of the LORD, and to do it, and to teach in Israel statutes and judgments.
Ezr 7:11 Now this is the copy of the letter that the king Artaxerxes gave unto Ezra the priest, the scribe, even a scribe of the words of the commandments of the LORD, and of his statutes to Israel.
Ezr 7:12 Artaxerxes, king of kings, unto Ezra the priest, a scribe of the law of the God of heaven, perfect peace, and at such a time.
Ezr 7:13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.
SO, just to clarify ... your SUMMARY --
Is calling Daniel a False Prophet and Gabriel a False message bringer......
Your summary says
This matches perfectly if the beginning of the 70th week was 26 ad. This then places the 70th week between the years of 26 ad and 33 ad.
BUT the actual Prophecy says
Daniel 9:26
26 After the sixty-two weeks the Anointed One[d] shall be cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince who shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and its end shall be with a flood, and even to the end shall be war; desolations are determined.
BECAUSE WEEK 70 is listed in the prophecy as
Daniel 9:27 27 He shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease; and on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate; and even to the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out on the desolate.
Reasons Why the 70 week could not be during the summarized period you have described....
1) The 70th week (the last seven years of the prophecy) MUST start with a covenant (or agreement) with the Jewish PEOPLE -- which did not have the authority or ability to join any such 7 year agreement since they were a conquered people at the time of Jesus.
2) Death of Anointed one had to be after week 69 and before week 70 -- prophecy scripture tells us specifically.
3) City / Temple Must be destroyed AFTER week 69 and BEFORE week 70 -- prophecy scripture tells us specifically.
4) Between Death/Resurrection and destruction of Temple/ City -- is roughly 40 years (depending where you place death)
5) God's wrath had to "pour out upon" the maker of covenant (which is the conclusion of the prophecy)
So your summary basically cause Daniel to have given false prophecy by way of either/or the death of anointed one or the destruction of City /Temple
To follow the scripture you MUST get the death and destruction to happen before week 70 (and not NOT part of week 70) scripture cannot be skipped over to make fit...
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Post by kjs on May 27, 2019 8:24:28 GMT -6
Daniel's 70 Weeks - It is all about Atonement and this is why for now I can not be convinced otherwise that there is still a 70th week yet to come:
Sorry, it really seems you are twisting scripture to fit -- rather let it speak for itself.
Yes, the Atonement -- is the great work performed by the Son of God......
AND ALSO WHY ( the entire Holy week -- whichever year you wish to place it) -- has to "fit" the foreshadowing of the selection of the lamb to the sacrifice of the lamb.....
which makes selection on the 10th (Nisan) and the Sacrifice on the 14th (Nisan)......
BUT the Daniel 9th prophecy has NOTHING to do with the Atonement (other than the broad sense of setting up the events which bring it about)
Daniel 9:24 -- "Seventy weeks are decreed on your people and on your holy city"
THAT IS IT --- the prophecy deals only with People of Israel and Jerusalem
Yes, the rest of 24 does give a "hint" of how it is going to be done ... BUT IT DOES not spell it out completely -- simply that Daniel and his people will have a key roll -- in the bringing about the fulfillment of God's over all plan -- which is the Atonement of the world.
One Key proof we have that Daniel 9 is "still being played out" is this phrase --- "to bring in everlasting righteousness" and this phrase "to anoint the most holy"
THESE have not happen yet
ONLY at the end of the age (when sin and death are destroyed, and Jesus Christ is anointed to reign) will the above two phrases be met.....
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Post by venge on May 27, 2019 9:39:46 GMT -6
Is there a specific verse about this? if not, show me how you come up with this.. The math on the 33 AD is taking the 26AD-33 AD as the 70th week, with the baptism being the mid week event that is part the controversy we are discussing. The temple destruction began to take place 66AD and the final holdout taken over by 73AD. Is your reasoning venge , about the 3 1/2 because of Matt 24? When I read about the AoD in Matt 24 that is Jesus answering to the apostles and predicting the demise of the 2nd temple. Jesus has 3 part question given to Him coming off the mt of Olives. When will these things (temple destruction) happen, what will be the sign of your coming and the sign of the end? 1Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. 2And He said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.”
3As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, 1)when will these things (the temple) happen, and 2)what will be the sign of Your coming, and 3)of the end of the age?”
so we read his replies but they are 1, 2, 3, 1 again, 2, 3, etc. The aspect of the AoD is the foretelling of the temple #2. When you see the armies surrounding...Luke has it written more clearly for me
20‘And when ye may see Jerusalem surrounded by encampments, then know that come nigh did her desolation; 21then those in Judea, let them flee to the mountains; and those in her midst, let them depart out; and those in the countries, let them not come in to her;
22because these are days of vengeance, to fulfil all things that have been written.
23‘And wo to those with child, and to those giving suck, in those days; for there shall be great distress on the land, and wrath on this people;
24and they shall fall by the mouth of the sword, and shall be led captive to all the nations, and Jerusalem shall be trodden down by nations, till the times of nations be fulfilled.
Daniel knew or saw his people rejecting Messiah and he also knew that desolations were determined, even until the end. So Jesus said to his Followers you will know when the armies surround that this Desolation will happen because of the Abominations of thy people..
the 'times of the nations' to me is the final kingdom that exists before Christ takes over and reigns. To answer your question: The temple destruction began in 66AD? Do you mean the war, the temple did not take 4 years to destroy. You mentioned part of Matt 24 as historic in your opinion. Do you think Jerusalem will be sieges again? If so, why cannot this verse mean future and not past specially because his coming is mentioned. So, if the 2 witnesses are killed after 3.5 year testimony, the beast would have had all the time to kill them unless the beast didn’t control Jerusalem yet as when Michael stands up or allows it to happen per Dan 12. Jerusalem will be attacked, I believe at this time and the Bible says won’t the Lord know it when Jerusalem is attacked? Won’t he go forth speedily to protect a remnant? So to me, Matt 24 is future in regards to Jerusalem once again surrounded by armies. After all, the valley of Jehoshaphat is mentioned as bloody if future and Armageddon is close by is it not? We also know all nations that go against Israel will be punished. |
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Post by boraddict on May 27, 2019 10:45:29 GMT -6
I noticed the April 6 date referenced in Barb's post and this is supported in LDS doctrine as the Savior's birth date. However, the time of year was when Joseph and Mary went to Bethlehem, a small town that was some short distance from Jerusalem. So the point was that they were close to Jerusalem for what? A celebration or festival. The story tells us that they were not in the Inn but another shelter; a cave. I doubt that it was a cave but a shelter; tabernacle. Thus, the time of year was Tabernacles, not April but September. At that time there would have been thousands in their shelters about Jerusalem and the surrounding region. However, afterwards this small family choose to stay most likely because they had family in the area. Then Herod came to kill the boys two years and younger. Also a big part of the puzzle is that the decree to be counted caused Joseph to go to that place to register for the census. So it was that he was there for several purposes to wit:
1) Tabernacles
2) the census
3) visiting family
It seems that the April 6 date for the Savior's birth is lodged because of Passover. But, Passover has only to do with his death, and clocking the 70 weeks backwards from Passover we arrive at the following to wit:
70 minus 52 equals one year with a remaining 18 weeks going back to
April 6 to March 6 = 4 weeks
March 6 to Feb, 6 = 4 weeks
Feb 6 to Jan 6 = 4 weeks
Jan 6 to Dec 6 = 4 weeks
Dec 6 to Nov 20 = 2 weeks
Now subtract the 40 days of fasting that he did after baptism that is 5.5 weeks approximately to wit:
Nov 20 to Oct 10 = 5.5 weeks
Since the above calculations are a rough estimation then we can say that the 70 weeks applies to just after the Savior's 30th birthday and after the period of fasting. The birthday is said to be supported astrologically and historically at Sept. 3 BC although Venge has it at 2 BC. So if we take 2 BC as the start point then we arrive at 28-29 AD as the time of the Savior's 70 week ministry. Additionally, from 2 BC we arrive at the 70 year mark at 68 AD for the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem.
I noticed that the prophecy does not say that the destruction of the city and the death of the Messiah occur at the same time. So this 40 year separation of these two events does not violate the prophecy.
Daniel 9:27
1) He shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease;
then
2) and on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate;
then
3) and even to the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out on the desolate.
It may be the case that two prophecies are co-mingled in the above verse. One for the time of the Savior's ministry and the other for our time. Since in the above reference to the 70 weeks followed the Savior's 30th birthday and then 40 years followed, then it is reasonable that these three time periods exist in the past 70 years of the nation of Israel's history. However, that does not appear to be the case. The 70 weeks must be the Savior's ministry past and future. Like, at his mortal life experience and then at his return via the 144,000.
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Post by mike on May 27, 2019 13:04:45 GMT -6
I wish that I could convince everyone to my understanding but I am not convinced myself. So consider that we know 70 years as well as 49 years etc. have scriptural meanings. Additionally, these groups of years are repeated throughout history. Thus, it seems that the 70 weeks is also a repeated period of time. Maybe write it out on a Word document then copy paste in sections similar to how BSG posted her thoughts. This way you can write it, read it (out loud if necessary) and maybe it will makes sense to me and others reading along 😉 |
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Post by venge on May 27, 2019 13:12:35 GMT -6
I noticed the April 6 date referenced in Barb's post and this is supported in LDS doctrine as the Savior's birth date. However, the time of year was when Joseph and Mary went to Bethlehem, a small town that was some short distance from Jerusalem. So the point was that they were close to Jerusalem for what? A celebration or festival. The story tells us that they were not in the Inn but another shelter; a cave. I doubt that it was a cave but a shelter; tabernacle. Thus, the time of year was Tabernacles, not April but September. At that time there would have been thousands in their shelters about Jerusalem and the surrounding region. However, afterwards this small family choose to stay most likely because they had family in the area. Then Herod came to kill the boys two years and younger. Also a big part of the puzzle is that the decree to be counted caused Joseph to go to that place to register for the census. So it was that he was there for several purposes to wit: 1) Tabernacles 2) the census 3) visiting family It seems that the April 6 date for the Savior's birth is lodged because of Passover. But, Passover has only to do with his death, and clocking the 70 weeks backwards from Passover we arrive at the following to wit: 70 minus 52 equals one year with a remaining 18 weeks going back to April 6 to March 6 = 4 weeks March 6 to Feb, 6 = 4 weeks Feb 6 to Jan 6 = 4 weeks Jan 6 to Dec 6 = 4 weeks Dec 6 to Nov 20 = 2 weeks Now subtract the 40 days of fasting that he did after baptism that is 5.5 weeks approximately to wit: Nov 20 to Oct 10 = 5.5 weeks Since the above calculations are a rough estimation then we can say that the 70 weeks applies to just after the Savior's 30th birthday and after the period of fasting. The birthday is said to be supported astrologically and historically at Sept. 3 BC although Venge has it at 2 BC. So if we take 2 BC as the start point then we arrive at 28-29 AD as the time of the Savior's 70 week ministry. Additionally, from 2 BC we arrive at the 70 year mark at 68 AD for the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem. I noticed that the prophecy does not say that the destruction of the city and the death of the Messiah occur at the same time. So this 40 year separation of these two events does not violate the prophecy. Daniel 9:27 1) He shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease; then 2) and on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate; then 3) and even to the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out on the desolate. It may be the case that two prophecies are co-mingled in the above verse. One for the time of the Savior's ministry and the other for our time. Since in the above reference to the 70 weeks followed the Savior's 30th birthday and then 40 years followed, then it is reasonable that these three time periods exist in the past 70 years of the nation of Israel's history. However, that does not appear to be the case. The 70 weeks must be the Savior's ministry past and future. Like, at his mortal life experience and then at his return via the 144,000. I have seen this explained soo many ways and I am still not convinced though I remain open if it can be proved. How do we know beyond a doubt that this ONLY refers to Jews and not all that have faith? Not one one can prove that to me. As we are the seed of Abraham and therefore his people and the Holy City that will come down as a bride for Christ is the Church - the true Church. As the Christ said in one of his parables, the Jews were not worthy so it is given to others that will bear fruit worthy. That is the Gentiles. How do we know we are not part of the 70 weeks? And don't tell me "thy people" because we are Daniel's people. Is this meant to be read to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah as for him, the body of Christ or is it meant to be read "until Messiah" as until he comes....? Obviously, Messiah removed. Now just a question, I am not pushing anything here. Are we sure this can ONLY refer to Messiah's death. I realize that is the most likely reason but can it be any other thing? A removal of Messiah from our hearts? A removal of Messiah from the world? I am just asking if its possible. If this is Messiah, I dont know of any covenant he made for one week. He made the covenant of the flood, he made the blood covenant and both are for all times. If its the prince to come, he could make some type of promise that he breaks. Men break their words all the time but God doesnt right? More of a reason this is a man that breaks a covenant then Christ whose word is forever and always keeps his promises; always the same then, now and forever.Why is only half the week bad? We don't hear of the 1st half of the week that isn't mentioned. Only the last half. I don't know why people keep thinking this is all about Israel and not the Church either. Israel is blinded, yes that's true, and Israel remains that way till the time of the gentiles is over..and then they can see. But all the hostility that comes says it comes for those that are of the testimony of Christ Jesus...not the testimony of Moses and the Law. Revelation is Christian persecution in so many chapters. We are the ones warned, not the Jews..not the Torah. The apostles were told what to look for, not the Jews or the Torah users. The field was given over to the Gentiles after the beloved son was slain. It was removed from the original builders. The cornerstone crushed them. /sigh BTW, I am just thinking outside the box and outside what I hold to...but I am looking at it as maybe we all missed something. It is possible as prophecy has been distorted before. |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on May 27, 2019 14:28:59 GMT -6
first of all, thank you all who are taking the time to read the lengthy posts. PLEASE for the record I do not believe Daniel is a false prophet and none of the rebuttals/debates against what I post are in concrete either (from my point of view), so do you want me to suggest that those who believe in the yet to be 70th week are following a False Prophet? no way would I say that to anyone. That kinda strikes a nerve when I read this "well, then you are saying Daniel is a false prophet" argument. Really? Just flat out say, "Barbio, so sorry but you are blind, girlfriend." It sucks to be accused of calling Daniel a false prophet when we are all trying to understand the prophets together. I will gladly be called blind but refuse to be accused of saying Daniel is false. My tone is not bitter, but rather flat and comes with a sigh. boraddict, thanks for those calculations. I believe Jesus was born on FoT (fall) as His birth represents His tabernacling with us, but too I have read arguments about why they were where they were when he was born. kjs, This is how the verses in Daniel are unfolding in my eyesight: 25And thou dost know, and dost consider wisely, from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem till Messiah the Leader [is] seven weeks, and sixty and two weeks: the broad place hath been built again, and the rampart, even in the distress of the times.
26And after the sixty and two weeks (we come into the One Week, the 70th week), cut off is Messiah, and the city and the holy place are not his (a summary of what the people will do), the Leader who hath come doth destroy the people (70 AD prophesied); and its end [is] with a flood (and it did), and till the end [is] war, determined [are] desolations (has been and will be going on even with the 2nd Coming, I believe this is why Daniel weeped so badly, so did Jesus)
27And he hath strengthened a covenant with many — one week,(this is the promise to Daniel; it does not imply for ONLY one week, it is implying it is the 'One week' REMAINING after the 62) and [in] the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease (His Atonement did this, later to be made legal on the cross), and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation (the complete end), and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.(those who continue to walk in abomination, OR rather the unbelief in that New Covenant will remain desolate until they turn from themselves and turn to God/Jesus)
venge,
let's look at Rev 11 1And there was given to me a reed like to a rod, and the messenger stood, saying, ‘Rise, and measure the sanctuary of God, and the altar, and those worshipping in it; 2and the court that is without the sanctuary leave out, and thou mayest not measure it, because it was given to the nations, and the holy city they shall tread down forty-two months;
I read this verse as an event that happens sometime after the Barley Harvest and yet before the Wheat Harvest. Those that are "without the sanctuary" are the unbelievers. The inner court has begun to be measured, but not the outer. There is no connection of any kind for my eyes that this has anything to do with Daniel 9.
The nations have to tread [around] the holy city (NEW Jerusalem) because they are not walking in faith, just the same picture as the people of Moses had to tread outside the promise land. This ch 11 is a picture of a peoples and nations experiencing their wilderness before being able to Enter the Kingdom and I put this event as a detail event leading to the Wheat Harvest. so I do agree that this is a "gentile" event because Judah will likely not repent until after the Winepress.
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Post by Natalie on May 27, 2019 16:00:47 GMT -6
venge ,
let's look at Rev 11 1And there was given to me a reed like to a rod, and the messenger stood, saying, ‘Rise, and measure the sanctuary of God, and the altar, and those worshipping in it; 2and the court that is without the sanctuary leave out, and thou mayest not measure it, because it was given to the nations, and the holy city they shall tread down forty-two months;
I read this verse as an event that happens sometime after the Barley Harvest and yet before the Wheat Harvest. Those that are "without the sanctuary" are the unbelievers. The inner court has begun to be measured, but not the outer. There is no connection of any kind for my eyes that this has anything to do with Daniel 9.
The nations have to tread [around] the holy city (NEW Jerusalem) because they are not walking in faith, just the same picture as the people of Moses had to tread outside the promise land. This ch 11 is a picture of a peoples and nations experiencing their wilderness before being able to Enter the Kingdom and I put this event as a detail event leading to the Wheat Harvest. so I do agree that this is a "gentile" event because Judah will likely not repent until after the Winepress.
Be careful that you are not making the text fit what you want it to say.
The text does not say "tread around". According to strongs, the word is pateo (G3961) and it is used to mean tread under foot, trample, crush with the feet. It is also used in Luke 10:19, Luke 21:24, and Rev 14:20.
And this can't be the New Jerusalem. John isn't shown the New Jerusalem until chapter 21. And according to Rev 21:22 there is no temple in New Jerusalem.
According to 11:19 God's temple is still in heaven at this point. How would the nations trample around this temple?
So what is the "temple of God" in 11:1 if it says "God's temple in heaven" in 11:19 and there is no temple in the New Jerusalem?
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2019 19:48:38 GMT -6
If the 2017-2024 hypothesis is true, then the following would need to occur in the next 22 months for validation...
Saudi "causing to strengthen covenant" again, appears imminent
Red heifer ceremony, very possible according to heifer age by fall 2020....not on the radar of many at the moment, but necessary for purification prior to resumption of sacrifices
Hunger and famine 2019-2020, 3rd seal, interesting that crop failures are occurring in major food producing nations, ie USA, Australia...and China has to kill 200,000,000 pigs for swine flu
1st seal and 2nd seal as birth pangs appear in play, with the "overcomer" overcoming and loose on the world, and with wars and rumors of wars with nations arming to the teeth....
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Post by kjs on May 28, 2019 8:07:34 GMT -6
PLEASE for the record I do not believe Daniel is a false prophet and none of the rebuttals/debates against what I post are in concrete either (from my point of view), so do you want me to suggest that those who believe in the yet to be 70th week are following a False Prophet? no way would I say that to anyone. That kinda strikes a nerve when I read this "well, then you are saying Daniel is a false prophet" argument. Really? Just flat out say, "Barbio, so sorry but you are blind, girlfriend." It sucks to be accused of calling Daniel a false prophet when we are all trying to understand the prophets together. I will gladly be called blind but refuse to be accused of saying Daniel is false. My tone is not bitter, but rather flat and comes with a sigh.
I apologize for pushing a nerve. But I am trying to be as direct as possible when I see a sister or brother in Christ – stretching and contorting scripture words into saying something they are not saying. Your entire history summarization – I said nothing and even gave it a thumbs up – because I have not researched the line of Babylonian dynasties and Median-Persian dynasties (I did do some research on Alexander the Great).
Here is your quote again….
This matches perfectly if the beginning of the 70th week was 26 ad. This then places the 70th week between the years of 26 ad and 33 ad.To make it “MATCH PERFECTLY” (ie your stating the prophecy fits this time period) Verse 26 – MUST Happen – within that 7 year window you have set up {Daniel 9:26} Which means:
1) An Anointed Prince must be “cut off” -- (Die) 2) Temple and Jerusalem – Must be destroyed (by the People of the Prince who is to come) If one assumes Jesus Christ – is the Anointed Prince that dies (or cut off) – that would occur within the time frame you laid out. However, the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem occurs (37 to 40 years later)…. Which fails your “perfect time period” Therefore, by your own words – the prophecy matching perfectly – is not really matching perfectly – which makes the prophecy flawed (incorrect) – which makes it a false prophecy. If it is a false prophecy, that makes the giver of the prophecy a false prophet.
Please note -- I am only showing how your quote logically flows.... which in essences does make prophecy incorrect -- because the two items that must occur in verse 26 does NOT occur in that seven year window.
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Post by kjs on May 28, 2019 8:22:37 GMT -6
Here is what you try to explain why you have taken this position ….
========================================================
kjs,
This is how the verses in Daniel are unfolding in my eyesight:
25And thou dost know, and dost consider wisely, from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem till Messiah the Leader [is] seven weeks, and sixty and two weeks: the broad place hath been built again, and the rampart, even in the distress of the times.
26And after the sixty and two weeks (we come into the One Week, the 70th week), cut off is Messiah, and the city and the holy place are not his (a summary of what the people will do), the Leader who hath come doth destroy the people (70 AD prophesied); and its end [is] with a flood
(and it did), and till the end [is] war, determined [are] desolations (has been and will be going on even with the 2nd Coming, I believe this is why Daniel weeped so badly, so did Jesus)
27And he hath strengthened a covenant with many — one week,(this is the promise to Daniel; it does not imply for ONLY one week, it is implying it is the 'One week' REMAINING after the 62) and [in] the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease (His Atonement did this, later to be made legal on the cross), and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation (the complete end), and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.(those who continue to walk in abomination, OR rather the unbelief in that New Covenant will remain desolate until they turn from themselves and turn to God/Jesus)
=======================================================
Please notice you have picked and chose the parts you wish to highlight – and have ignored other portions of text completely.
I have already shown that the 70 week prophecy – Highlights each week
Verse 27 {Daniel 9:27} contains the “70th week” and it is dependent on the “HE” that was introduced in Verse 26 – Making the “He” dependent on the leader of the people who destroyed the city and temple.
Which means – the temple and city must be destroyed BEFORE the start of the 70th week….
Your explanation try’s to claim that “it (the destruction) is a prophesied future even – but the leader of the people of the destroyers must create (or firm) an agreement for seven years).
Your attempt to “remove the Gap” – gives more problems to the prophecy – rather than simply accept that the Gap was foretold within the prophecy.
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Post by venge on May 28, 2019 8:51:12 GMT -6
PLEASE for the record I do not believe Daniel is a false prophet and none of the rebuttals/debates against what I post are in concrete either (from my point of view), so do you want me to suggest that those who believe in the yet to be 70th week are following a False Prophet? no way would I say that to anyone. That kinda strikes a nerve when I read this "well, then you are saying Daniel is a false prophet" argument. Really? Just flat out say, "Barbio, so sorry but you are blind, girlfriend." It sucks to be accused of calling Daniel a false prophet when we are all trying to understand the prophets together. I will gladly be called blind but refuse to be accused of saying Daniel is false. My tone is not bitter, but rather flat and comes with a sigh.
I apologize for pushing a nerve. But I am trying to be as direct as possible when I see a sister or brother in Christ – stretching and contorting scripture words into saying something they are not saying. Your entire history summarization – I said nothing and even gave it a thumbs up – because I have not researched the line of Babylonian dynasties and Median-Persian dynasties (I did do some research on Alexander the Great).
Here is your quote again….
This matches perfectly if the beginning of the 70th week was 26 ad. This then places the 70th week between the years of 26 ad and 33 ad.To make it “MATCH PERFECTLY” (ie your stating the prophecy fits this time period) Verse 26 – MUST Happen – within that 7 year window you have set up {Daniel 9:26} Which means:
1) An Anointed Prince must be “cut off” -- (Die) 2) Temple and Jerusalem – Must be destroyed (by the People of the Prince who is to come) If one assumes Jesus Christ – is the Anointed Prince that dies (or cut off) – that would occur within the time frame you laid out. However, the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem occurs (37 to 40 years later)…. Which fails your “perfect time period” Therefore, by your own words – the prophecy matching perfectly – is not really matching perfectly – which makes the prophecy flawed (incorrect) – which makes it a false prophecy. If it is a false prophecy, that makes the giver of the prophecy a false prophet.
Please note -- I am only showing how your quote logically flows.... which in essences does make prophecy incorrect -- because the two items that must occur in verse 26 does NOT occur in that seven year window.
Barbiosheepgirl Are you meaning to take v. 27 to fill in part of v. 26 rather then it be seperate? The people destroy the city and sanctuary, not the prince who comes later. Since Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD, it was by the people. Not the prince who comes later. The prince who comes later, after 70AD, is the one if v. 27 IMO After looking at KJS’s reasoning, it is something to think about. If the 70th week was all in 26-33AD, how does 70 AD fit unless you split both in half and there is a gap and the week is no longer continuous. This prophecy is definitely the hardest one of them all, yeah, some say it’s easy, but I don’t believe so. It’s difficult to determine the original language and thought of Daniel on this scripture. That’s why I asked, why the first 7 weeks built unto messiah? Was the original plan to build the 2nd temple to Messiah or was it to build it to God? We lump the 1st 7 weeks with the later 62. But the text reads after 62, not after 69 and also not after 7 and 62. God is specific. Why is it written this way? |
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Post by davewatchman on May 28, 2019 8:58:00 GMT -6
 I found this image when i was doing a google job on "HIGH SABBATH." It's from a bad Wiki page. (They don't know what it is) I know what it is, i was just trying to find out if i could find someone else that could word it out better than me. I did, but it's in a video. The High Sabbath from John was because the Jews were observing the Passover on the same day as the regular weekly Sabbath that falls on Saturday. But that begins at sundown on Friday, night before light. The High Sabbath is ANY seventh day Sabbath that also happens to fall on another holy convocation Feast Day. It's a special Sabbath. What might add to the confusion is that their day begins at sundown. I'm a Sabbatarian, so i keep my eye on the sundown times beginning Friday evening. And the evening and the morning were the seventh day. Most Christians believe the last date is the appropriate date because of the very popular and almost sacred calculations by Sir Robert Anderson where he has the decree of 445 BC and then Jesus dying April 6 32 AD Now MOST experts place the year of Crucifixion in the early 30s (with the earliest being 28 and latest being 34) -- we do have 100% proof it did not occur on a Friday -- since John 19:31 tells us it was High Sabbath -- why the body had to be down by sunset)
I think Barbio is close, just one year off. On the 70th week that is. 27 to 33. Jesus died on Friday April 7, AD 30.It was during the day on Friday. But Friday day, was not the "High Sabbath. This "High Sabbath, was an erroneous High Sabbath, that the Jews were rushing to prepare for. It would begin at sundown on Friday evening. But they were following the WRONG calendar. Jesus was observing Passover by following the conjunction of the moon. Jesus ate Passover with His disciples in the upper room, the last supper, on Thursday April 6, AD 30. U.S. Naval Observatory agrees with this calendar from Time and Date:   But remember, we're looking for the new moon of March. Then count 15 days from March 23, (Nissan 1), and it lands on April 6, (Nissan 15), when Jesus ate Passover in the upper room the day before He was to suffer. This is the only year in the ballpark that has this particular set up. And it aligns with the 457 BC decree to 33 AD. "So Jesus sent Peter and John, saying,
“Go and prepare the Passover for us, that we may eat it.” - Luke 22:8"And he said to them,
“I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. - Luke 22:15But then the Jews on the day after, were rushing to prepare to eat their erroneous Passover a day late. It says in Numbers 9 that it's a sin to observe the Passover on the wrong day, unless they touched a dead body or were away on a long journey. So i'm very sure that Jesus ate it correctly at the appointed time. I recommend Larry Wilson for this. He is a genius. High Sabbath at 15:07 And so the nation of Israel was using a man made clock to determine the Passover, at 21:10: I recommend all 28 minutes. |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on May 28, 2019 10:26:25 GMT -6
At this point in time, Natalie, you and I are not in agreement about Revelation in general.
John was in the SPIRIT when he was shown the elements of Revelation. CH 11 (and CH 10 even) are a detailed event within another event, but it is literal visions of the SPIRT, not physical literal. John is seeing the spirtual picture behind a physical event and I will not identify the temple of God as a physical 3rd temple when reading Revelation. Namely because of what we are taught in the Epistles.
If it is to be literal physical, then are we expecting to see a pair of lampstands and a pair of olive trees become animated? (think of the mops in Fantasia). Did John stick a literal physical little book in his mouth and chew it and swallow it? (ch 10)
Back to ch 11. The first verse reveals a timing. It is telling us this is after a certain situation (the temple is partially measured, or completed) yet there is still work to be done on the 'outer court.' The reason this is so is because I see Jesus building HIS TEMPLE not made with hands, and part of the temple building seems to be following the template of Solomon's Temple, including how the tribes were involved, the armies and the musicians etc. I am still studying all the work that went into the 1st physcial temple, because it seems to me, so far, to pattern the physical literal from the OT. I can not take the words of Revelation to be physical literal, but are spiritual elements of physical things, and to identify them physically can be a long process or rather simple.
Why can the inner court be measured?
ch 11 to me is a detailed description that follows the pattern of ch 7 ch 14 namely. CH 21:22 is pointing out another point in time where the "temple" is no longer needed.
I can go on to explain the trodden part, but I think I don't need to.
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