rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Jul 19, 2020 21:53:30 GMT -6
Thank you rondonmonson , and the theory that you present is plausible. Please look at the Chapter 12 item wherein at Rev. 12:1-2 the great sign has already taken place. You stated that: "B. Rev. 12 starts in the Middle of the week (1260), the Dragon tries to get at the fleeing Jews via the Anti-Christs Army, but he can't get at them." I am convinced that the sequestering at Rev. 12:14 is indeed the fleeing Jews just as you have described. However, if you include Rev. 12:5-6 as the fleeing Jews as well, then we have two 3.5 year periods of fleeing Jews with a war in the interim wherein the dragon is defeated (Rev. 12:10-11) and then reestablished (Rev. 12:12-13); or, Rev. 12:14 is a repeat of Rev. 6. I am saying that if we look at Chapter 12 chronologically then there seems to be a flow from one event to the next as follows: Rev. 12:1-2 the great sign Rev. 12:3-4 the rise of the dragon (China perhaps) Rev. 12:5-6 the saints are sequestered for 3.5 years (rapture perhaps) after which is the next verse Rev. 12: 7-11 the type of the war in heaven the shadow of which is the beast being defeated here upon the earth Rev. 12:12-13 the dragon comes after the saints (in Jerusalem perhaps) and they are sequestered for 3.5 years Rev. 12:14-17 the dragon continues to pursue the saints and they are protected by the earth. There seems to be one or two woe references at Rev. 12:12-13 suggesting that Rev. 12:1-11 is prior to the woes of Chapter 9. Because of this and a few other indicators, I am thinking that the trumpets in Chapter 8 are in fact the war of Rev. 12:7-11. If this is correct then Rev. 12:5-6 is in line with Chapter 7 and Rev. 12:1-4 has an application to Chapter 6. This would mean that Rev. 12:14-17 is in line with Chapter 9. The Bible often repeats things in different manners to affirm it. Genesis 1 is about creation, man is created on the 6th day. Genesis 2 is about the creation of man, it's not two different events. Likewise, Rev. 12:1-6, its a CODED PASSAGE telling us who the players are and what happens, its an overview so to speak. Since John dared not say Israel since Rome had just sacked Israel about 20-25 years earlier, he descried them as "THE WOMAN" he described Satan as the Dragon and Jesus as the male child, the Greek actually means male child not man child. So, we are given all the coded clues we need to understand its Israel, Satan and Jesus in this story about the End Times in which she flees for 1260 days. OVERVIEW OVER, we then get the finer details of the story in verses 7-17. So, the Prophecy starts in the middle of the week, the CODED MESSAGE is in the Old Testament, as is much of the book of Revelation, read the Rev. 17 story in Daniel ch. 5. Its the same story basically. Babylon falls, Mene Mene Tekel, they drank to false gods from the cups of God, they blasphemed God, it was time for Judgment, the Harlot gets judged. Out of 404 verses in the book of Revelation, 289 reference the Old Testament its a giant code book and in order to understand it we have to understand the Old Testament. The SIGN is just Genesis 37:9 the Sun, Moon and 11 Stars. The Red Dragon is Satan, not China, he got 1/3 of all the Angels (stars) to follow him. Satan is called the bright and morning star in Job. These Jewish Saints come to Jesus Christ via the Two-witnesses who show up 75 days before the Anti-Christ becomes the Beast and turns Israel back unto God. Micheal stands up (Dan. 12) Micheal/God cast Satan and his Demons down to earth. The Dragon goes after the woman but can't get at her, he then goes after the Remnant Church. The 1/3 Jews he can't get at, the 2/3 Jews who do not flee will perish. These are not THE WOES of God, this is just God using the same lingo, Woe to those on earth because Satan is come down and is angry. God's Woes will be against the Wicked.
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Post by boraddict on Jul 20, 2020 18:57:24 GMT -6
Today I was thinking about Chapter 12 in the Book of Revelation and how Rev.12:12 speaks about the woe against those of the earth and sea and how the dragon has come down to them. Then in Chapter 13 we have the dragon coming in Rev. 13:2 and also Rev. 13:11 to the 1st and 2nd beasts. Thus, Rev. 12:12-17 is expanded upon in Chapter 13. This evidence shows that a chronology continues from Chapter 12 through Chapter 13 (as an expansion of Verses 12:12-17) and then into Chapter 14. Secondly, due to the comment in Rev. 13:4 concerning who can make war with the beast, and then in Chapter 14 we see Christ and the 144,000, then it is they who can make war with the beast. Then, after I had taken a nap and considered Rev. 14:6, I wondered what other expansions exist, if any, in Chapter 13's relationship to Chapter 14. The following chart shows those expansions:
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| 2nd Expansion
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| 3rd Expansion | Rev. 12:12-13, the dragon comes to his people of the earth and sea |
| Rev. 13:1-2, the dragon gives the (sea) beast his power, seat, and authority Rev. 13:3-4, the people wondered after the beast and worshiped the dragon
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| Rev. 13:11-12, The (earth) beast that speaks like a dragon | Rev. 12:14, the saints are sequestered for a time, times, and half a time |
| Rev. 13:5, the mouth of the beast (that in Rev. 13:11 is the earth beast that speaks as a dragon) continues for 42 months
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| Rev. 12:15, the serpent (dragon) cast out of his mouth (the beast of Rev. 13:5-6, 11) a flood of water (army) against the saints of God
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| Rev. 13:6, the mouth of the beast (the earth beast of Rev. 13:11) does blasphemy against God and his saints |
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| Rev. 12:16-17, the earth helped the woman (saints) and destroyed up the flood (army) of the dragon
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| Rev. 13:7, the mouth of the beast makes war with the saints of God |
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| Rev. 14:6-8, judgment upon heaven, earth, sea, and waters; thus, the fall of Babylon (this is the four trumpets of Chapter 8)
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| Rev. 13:13-18, fire from heaven (missiles) and the mark of the beast
| Rev. 14:9-11, those whom take the mark of the beast |
| Rev. 13:8, all who dwell on the earth (except those in the Lamb's book of life) worship the beast
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| Rev. 14:12, the patience of the saints |
| Rev. 13:9-10, the patience and faith of the saints
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| Rev. 14:13-14, blessed are those whom die in the Lord, the one is upon the cloud |
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| Rev. 14:1-5, the 144,000 are with Christ |
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What is not shown in the above expansions is the war wherein the two beasts are destroyed. Interestingly, this war is shown both before and after the verses that pertain to the expansion (at Rev. 12:7-11 and Rev. 14:15-16). So either these are two different wars or they are the same war. But going with rondonmonson in his conclusion that the sequester of the saints at Rev. 12:6 is repeated at Rev. 12:14 then the above chart is an expansion of Rev. 12:1-6 with the wars of Rev. 7-11 and Rev. 14:15-16 as the ending war/harvest. So it appears that Chapters 12-14 may be in a chiasmus form of some sort; perhaps, as follows: vv. 12:1-6, beginning vv. 12:7-11, war with the dragon/beasts vv. 12:12-14:14, center vv. 14:15-16, the harvest vv. 14:17-20, ending
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Jul 21, 2020 17:39:56 GMT -6
Today I was thinking about Chapter 12 in the Book of Revelation and how Rev.12:12 speaks about the woe against those of the earth and sea and how the dragon has come down to them. Then in Chapter 13 we have the dragon coming in Rev. 13:2 and also Rev. 13:11 to the 1st and 2nd beasts. Thus, Rev. 12:12-17 is expanded upon in Chapter 13. This evidence shows that a chronology continues from Chapter 12 through Chapter 13 (as an expansion of Verses 12:12-17) and then into Chapter 14. Secondly, due to the comment in Rev. 13:4 concerning who can make war with the beast, and then in Chapter 14 we see Christ and the 144,000, then it is they who can make war with the beast. Then, after I had taken a nap and considered Rev. 14:6, I wondered what other expansions exist, if any, in Chapter 13's relationship to Chapter 14. The following chart shows those expansions:
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| 2nd Expansion
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| 3rd Expansion | Rev. 12:12-13, the dragon comes to his people of the earth and sea |
| Rev. 13:1-2, the dragon gives the (sea) beast his power, seat, and authority Rev. 13:3-4, the people wondered after the beast and worshiped the dragon
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| Rev. 13:11-12, The (earth) beast that speaks like a dragon | Rev. 12:14, the saints are sequestered for a time, times, and half a time |
| Rev. 13:5, the mouth of the beast (that in Rev. 13:11 is the earth beast that speaks as a dragon) continues for 42 months
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| Rev. 12:15, the serpent (dragon) cast out of his mouth (the beast of Rev. 13:5-6, 11) a flood of water (army) against the saints of God
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| Rev. 13:6, the mouth of the beast (the earth beast of Rev. 13:11) does blasphemy against God and his saints |
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| Rev. 12:16-17, the earth helped the woman (saints) and destroyed up the flood (army) of the dragon
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| Rev. 13:7, the mouth of the beast makes war with the saints of God |
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| Rev. 14:6-8, judgment upon heaven, earth, sea, and waters; thus, the fall of Babylon (this is the four trumpets of Chapter 8)
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| Rev. 13:13-18, fire from heaven (missiles) and the mark of the beast
| Rev. 14:9-11, those whom take the mark of the beast |
| Rev. 13:8, all who dwell on the earth (except those in the Lamb's book of life) worship the beast
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| Rev. 14:12, the patience of the saints |
| Rev. 13:9-10, the patience and faith of the saints
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| Rev. 14:13-14, blessed are those whom die in the Lord, the one is upon the cloud |
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| Rev. 14:1-5, the 144,000 are with Christ |
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What is not shown in the above expansions is the war wherein the two beasts are destroyed. Interestingly, this war is shown both before and after the verses that pertain to the expansion (at Rev. 12:7-11 and Rev. 14:15-16). So either these are two different wars or they are the same war. But going with rondonmonson in his conclusion that the sequester of the saints at Rev. 12:6 is repeated at Rev. 12:14 then the above chart is an expansion of Rev. 12:1-6 with the wars of Rev. 7-11 and Rev. 14:15-16 as the ending war/harvest. So it appears that Chapters 12-14 may be in a chiasmus form of some sort; perhaps, as follows: vv. 12:1-6, beginning vv. 12:7-11, war with the dragon/beasts vv. 12:12-14:14, center vv. 14:15-16, the harvest vv. 14:17-20, endingHello Sister, finally got my bladder/prostrate area "mapped out" where they can start my radiation next Wed. after three tries. Kinda nauseous after drinking all that water again so I been laying around being lazy all day. Yes, much of the book of Revelation overlaps, instead of a continuous story, we get different themes as told from different points of view, kind of like reading different POV on a battle from different people, or via a War from different places. The four Gospels perspective on Jesus' death from four different men give us four different perspectives. In Revelation we are given different perspectives by God on different subjects. We see the Harvest Chapter in Rev. 14, its all about the Harvest, well the Harvest ends with what? The Wicked Tares being bundled into the grave in order to be burned later (1000 years). In Rev. 11 we see the 7th Trump is blown and Jesus takes over, this is the same as Rev. 14:17-20 and Rev. 16:19, Babylon Falls, and Jesus takes over, same thing, the 7th Trump is the last woe (see Rev. 8:13) and thus it is the 7 Vials which are the last woe as seen in Rev. 16. Then we see that Rev. 19 ends at the Marriage Supper which is Armageddon, so they are all ending at the same point in time. Rev. 8, 9 15&16 runs the gambit as per the last 42-months Chronological Order, everything else are asides or Parenthetical Citations. Rev. 12 and 13 both last 42 months also, which runs the exact same time frame as Rev. 8, 9, 15&16, the Dragon chases the Woman (Israel) for 1260 days (42 months). The Beast rules for 42 months. I think Rev. 18 also runs the same 42 months, its the world being judged by God from the "perspective" of the rich merchants, God is showing us their despair over a 42 month judgment period of time. Rev. 17 of course will not last 42 months in full because that is all the False Religions being judged by God who uses the Beasts own desire to be God in order to judge Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism etc. all, he forbids them being from operating as a religion, he orders Beast worship. Rev. 17:17 tells us that God uses their own desires to judge the Harlot. The KEY is the 1260 from Daniel 12. (Times, time and half time)
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Post by boraddict on Jul 21, 2020 21:08:04 GMT -6
Thank you rondonmonson , and you look very cool. I am with you on your overall conclusions except the parenthetical. I think that many people accept the idea that Chapters like 13 or 14 are parenthetical because it is an easy way to explain how the connections in the book work. In fact, I was of that mindset for such a long time and then I got onto the chronological kick. The problem with chronology in the Book of Revelation is that everything seems to be out of order. So, the trick is to find the order; however, no cheating by using the parenthetical excuses. I believe that my big break came a few weeks ago when I came across the idea that the heart of the book is primarily divided into four sections. This idea came from the four sets of 7 (seals, trumpets, angels in 14, and bowls). Additionally, there are repeated sets of four throughout the book as in 4 horsemen, 4 angels (vv. 7:1-3), 4 beasts (Ch. 4), etc. From this perspective (that Chapters 4-19 are divided into four parts), then it was easy to section those parts into the established chapters first by the division of the book in its chiasmus form (4-11 and 12-19); and then by the associations to the: 1) seals (Ch. 5-8), 2) trumpets (8-11), 3) angels of 14 (12-14) and lastly 4) the bowls (15-19). As you can see, Chapter 4 is the odd man out; however, it belongs to the 1st half of the book and most likely to the seals. So far I have leaned toward it's parenthetical application in the 6th trumpet only because I can not explain how Chapter 4 has an application prior to God holding the scroll in Rev. 5:1. See what I mean! If it can not be explained then you must cheat away from the chronology. Lastly, the four sets of chapters (5-8, 8-11, 12-13, 15-19) must work within their sets to tell some aspect of the story. It is easy to see the chronology from Chapter 5 to 11 (sets 1 & 2) with a bit of work between Chapters 9 and 10. But the connections between 12, 13 and 14 (set 3) are much more difficult and I think that I found the connections as I explained in my previous post. The 4th set is also easy with the beast rising in 17, the fall of Babylon in 18, the marriage and war in 19, then after the war in 15 and 16 as the ending. The emphasis of the four sets appears to be: 1) In the seals (5-8): the four horsemen and the 144,000 2) In the trumpets (8-11): the three woes and the two witnesses 3) In the four angels of Chapter 14 (12-14): the two beasts and the harvest of the Lord 4) In the bowls (15-19): rise of the beast, the fall of Babylon, the marriage, the great war, and lastly the wrath of God Using the 4th set as a template then the grouping of the topics from the four sets would be something like:
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| 1st set |
| 2nd set |
| 3rd set |
| 4th set |
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| 1-2 |
| 4 horsemen (6) |
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| rise of the beasts and rapture (12-13) |
| rise of the beasts (17) | 3 |
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| fall of Babylon (18) | 4 |
| 144,000 sealed (7) |
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| 144,000 with Christ (14) |
| marriage (19) | 5 |
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| harvest / great war (8-9) |
| harvest / wine-press (14) |
| wine-press / great war (19) | 6 |
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| temple (10-11) |
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| 7 |
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| wrath of God (11) |
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| wrath of God (15-16) |
From the above chart the order of events appears to be: 1-2) rise of the beasts and the rapture of the saints 3) fall of Babylon 4) the marriage 5) harvest / great war 6) temple 7) wrath of God From the above information it appears that after the beasts rise then the saints are enraptured. Afterwards the beasts replace the economic system (Babylon) with the mark of the beast economic system. During the same time the saints having been enraptured are married to the Savior via a sealing ceremony. It seems that all the preceding events occur during the first 3.5 years of the tribulation era. Next is the harvest and great war wherein the beasts are destroyed. Then the temple is built followed by it's desecration and subsequent wrath of God.
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Post by boraddict on Jul 22, 2020 19:37:37 GMT -6
So I was looking at the wine-press in Rev. 19:15 that links to Rev. 14:19-20 and that the wine-press is associated with the beast and false prophet (Rev. 19:20). As a result then the beast is destroyed in the wine-press of Rev. 14:20. This means that the 3rd set of Chapters 12, 13, and 14 should also include Chapters 15, and 16 because the beast is destroyed in the wine-press (vv. 19:20). So, in my analysis Chapters 15 and 16 are taken from the 4th set and added to the 3rd set.
As I considered the above conclusions (over the past several days) there seemed to be a problem with one of the details although I can not remember what that problem was.
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Jul 23, 2020 10:07:21 GMT -6
Thank you rondonmonson , and you look very cool. I am with you on your overall conclusions except the parenthetical. I think that many people accept the idea that Chapters like 13 or 14 are parenthetical because it is an easy way to explain how the connections in the book work. In fact, I was of that mindset for such a long time and then I got onto the chronological kick. The problem with chronology in the Book of Revelation is that everything seems to be out of order. So, the trick is to find the order; however, no cheating by using the parenthetical excuses. I believe that my big break came a few weeks ago when I came across the idea that the heart of the book is primarily divided into four sections. This idea came from the four sets of 7 (seals, trumpets, angels in 14, and bowls). Additionally, there are repeated sets of four throughout the book as in 4 horsemen, 4 angels (vv. 7:1-3), 4 beasts (Ch. 4), etc. From this perspective (that Chapters 4-19 are divided into four parts), then it was easy to section those parts into the established chapters first by the division of the book in its chiasmus form (4-11 and 12-19); and then by the associations to the: 1) seals (Ch. 5-8), 2) trumpets (8-11), 3) angels of 14 (12-14) and lastly 4) the bowls (15-19). As you can see, Chapter 4 is the odd man out; however, it belongs to the 1st half of the book and most likely to the seals. So far I have leaned toward it's parenthetical application in the 6th trumpet only because I can not explain how Chapter 4 has an application prior to God holding the scroll in Rev. 5:1. See what I mean! If it can not be explained then you must cheat away from the chronology. Lastly, the four sets of chapters (5-8, 8-11, 12-13, 15-19) must work within their sets to tell some aspect of the story. It is easy to see the chronology from Chapter 5 to 11 (sets 1 & 2) with a bit of work between Chapters 9 and 10. But the connections between 12, 13 and 14 (set 3) are much more difficult and I think that I found the connections as I explained in my previous post. The 4th set is also easy with the beast rising in 17, the fall of Babylon in 18, the marriage and war in 19, then after the war in 15 and 16 as the ending. The emphasis of the four sets appears to be: 1) In the seals (5-8): the four horsemen and the 144,000 2) In the trumpets (8-11): the three woes and the two witnesses 3) In the four angels of Chapter 14 (12-14): the two beasts and the harvest of the Lord 4) In the bowls (15-19): rise of the beast, the fall of Babylon, the marriage, the great war, and lastly the wrath of God Using the 4th set as a template then the grouping of the topics from the four sets would be something like:
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| 1st set |
| 2nd set |
| 3rd set |
| 4th set |
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| 1-2 |
| 4 horsemen (6) |
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| rise of the beasts and rapture (12-13) |
| rise of the beasts (17) | 3 |
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| fall of Babylon (18) | 4 |
| 144,000 sealed (7) |
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| 144,000 with Christ (14) |
| marriage (19) | 5 |
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| harvest / great war (8-9) |
| harvest / wine-press (14) |
| wine-press / great war (19) | 6 |
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| temple (10-11) |
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| 7 |
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| wrath of God (11) |
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| wrath of God (15-16) |
From the above chart the order of events appears to be: 1-2) rise of the beasts and the rapture of the saints 3) fall of Babylon 4) the marriage 5) harvest / great war 6) temple 7) wrath of God From the above information it appears that after the beasts rise then the saints are enraptured. Afterwards the beasts replace the economic system (Babylon) with the mark of the beast economic system. During the same time the saints having been enraptured are married to the Savior via a sealing ceremony. It seems that all the preceding events occur during the first 3.5 years of the tribulation era. Next is the harvest and great war wherein the beasts are destroyed. Then the temple is built followed by it's desecration and subsequent wrath of God. Parenthetical only means God is telling two stories during the same time period. Genesis 2 is Parenthetical, as is the book Daniel, it is nowhere near in order. Once bible prophecy people understand the 1260 Event spoken of in Daniel they can then solve the Chronological Order of the book of Rev. until then its going to be hard. Its not out of order except for Rev. 15&16, I think they should follow Rev. 9, thus 8, 9, 15&16 would give us all the Judgments of God in order, everything else are chapters with specific meanings that happen during those four chapters. Its like a book with flashbacks, it can't be in order during ANY FLASHBACK, but then you return to the current time frame, that is the actually order of the movie. In other words, during the Fried Green Tomatoes movie, all the flash backs were not a part of the order of the movie, instead they were meant to show specific things that happened at a subset point in time. The 70th week timeline explained.
Rev. 1 is Jesus in all his glory, that covers eternity IMHO. Rev. 2 and 3 is Pre 70th week, its the Church Age. 70TH WEEK BELOW:_______________1_______________2_______________3_______ 3/1 years_______4_______________5_______________6_______________7 Years _______________________________________________Rev. 4 The 24 Elders = Church, they have the promises to those who overcome, Thrones, Robes and Crowns. _______________________________________________Rev. 5 We see in verse 9 that these come out of every nation and are REDEEMED, Angels need no redeeming _________________________________________________Rev. 6 Jesus opens the 6 Seals just before the MIDWAY POINT, and prophesies bout the Coming Anti-Christ. ________________________________________________________Rev.7 1290-1260 Jews Flee Judea ________________________________________________________ _Rev. 8 EXACT MID POINT 1260 Event. _________________________________________________________________________Rev. 9 = Woe 1 & 2 Apollyon is released, the demons hurt men for 5 months. ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________Rev. 10 is the very end. _____________________________________________________Rev. 11 starts 75 days before the Anti-Christ shows up at the 1260, the 2 Witnesses show up/1335. ________________________________________________________ _Rev. 12 starts at the EXACT MID POINT-1260 Event. ________________________________________________________ _Rev. 13 starts at the EXACT MID POINT-1260 Event. __Revelation 14 covers the full 7 years because we see the Rapture in verse 14 in a FLASH BACK________The rest of the Harvest happens at the end__WINE-PRESS. _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________Rev. 15 Angels ready the Vials ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________Rev. 16//Vials end it all ________________________________________________________ _Rev. 17 starts at the MID POINT-1260 Event, the Anti-Christ takes out ALL OTHER RELIGIONS________________________________________________________ _Rev. 18 starts at the MID POINT-1260 Event, the World/Babylon is judged in a 42-month period__Revelation 19 like Rev. 14 covers the full 7 years, we see the Church in Heaven BEFORE she gets her White Robes, thus it covers the full 7 years____ Rev. 20, 21 and 22 of course are not a part of the 70th week, they happen after Jesus' return.
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Post by boraddict on Jul 23, 2020 18:06:03 GMT -6
Great. Thank you rondonmonson , and I am with you on the midpoint. Take a look at the following chart and see how it fits with your conclusions. Chapters 1-3 and 20-22 are not included in the mid-point chart.
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| 4) | Mid-point |
| Rev. 8:1-11:2 |
| Rev. 12:7-12 |
| Rev. 14:6-20 |
| Rev. 19:11-21 |
1) I included from the half hour silence (v. 8:1) to the construction of the temple as a midpoint because I have the silence as the harvest (?) and the four trumpets as the destruction of the beast (and false prophet), and lastly the temple is built leaving 3.5 years until the end. 2) I included the war in heaven (vv. 12:7:-12) as a type of the war upon the earth wherein the beast and false prophet are destroyed although that is not clearly stated. 3) I see the angel of Rev. 14:6-7 giving a reference to the four trumpets (Rev. 8:6-12) followed that angel's reference again in Rev. 8:13. As a result, I think that the angel of Verse 14:6-7 is announcing the destruction of the beast (and false prophet) that takes place after the 144,000 are sealed in Chapter 7 and standing with Christ in Chapter 14. Wherein, the harvest takes place beginning at Rev. 14:14-16 followed by the wine-press wherein the beast is destroyed at Rev. 14:17-20 although it is not clearly stated as such. I am saying that Rev. 8:1-12 that is the half hour silence and 4 trumpets appear to be the harvest and destruction of the two beasts (from Chapters 12-13) that in Chapter 14 are depicted as the harvest and the wine-press at Rev. 14:15-20. 4) I think that the Savior conducts the harvest followed by the wine-press (in Rev. 19:9-21). The harvest seems to be referenced in the link at Rev. 19:9 to Rev. 14:13. The marriage of the saints that were enraptured in Rev. 18:4 appears to be taking place in Rev. 19:1-8. Thus, in Chapter 19 is the marriage for those whom were enraptured, the harvest as a second wave of gathering although lightly mentioned in Ch. 19 at Verse 9 (this seems to be supported in Chapter 12 via the two gatherings at Rev. 12:6, and Rev. 12:14), and lastly the wine-press for the beast and his army in vv. 19:11-21. You have 13, 17, and 18 as mid-point but these chapters that are the rise of the beast and the fall of Babylon that appears to be the world economy that is replaced by the mark of the beast; both belong at the beginning of the tribulation era.
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Post by venge on Jul 24, 2020 7:19:25 GMT -6
Great. Thank you rondonmonson , and I am with you on the midpoint. Take a look at the following chart and see how it fits with your conclusions. Chapters 1-3 and 20-22 are not included in the mid-point chart.
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| 1) |
| 2) |
| 3) |
| 4) | Mid-point |
| Rev. 8:1-11:2 |
| Rev. 12:7-12 |
| Rev. 14:6-20 |
| Rev. 19:11-21 |
1) I included from the half hour silence (v. 8:1) to the construction of the temple as a midpoint because I have the silence as the harvest (?) and the four trumpets as the destruction of the beast (and false prophet), and lastly the temple is built leaving 3.5 years until the end. 2) I included the war in heaven (vv. 12:7:-12) as a type of the war upon the earth wherein the beast and false prophet are destroyed although that is not clearly stated. 3) I see the angel of Rev. 14:6-7 giving a reference to the four trumpets (Rev. 8:6-12) followed that angel's reference again in Rev. 8:13. As a result, I think that the angel of Verse 14:6-7 is announcing the destruction of the beast (and false prophet) that takes place after the 144,000 are sealed in Chapter 7 and standing with Christ in Chapter 14. Wherein, the harvest takes place beginning at Rev. 14:14-16 followed by the wine-press wherein the beast is destroyed at Rev. 14:17-20 although it is not clearly stated as such. I am saying that Rev. 8:1-12 that is the half hour silence and 4 trumpets appear to be the harvest and destruction of the two beasts (from Chapters 12-13) that in Chapter 14 are depicted as the harvest and the wine-press at Rev. 14:15-20. 4) I think that the Savior conducts the harvest followed by the wine-press (in Rev. 19:9-21). The harvest seems to be referenced in the link at Rev. 19:9 to Rev. 14:13. The marriage of the saints that were enraptured in Rev. 18:4 appears to be taking place in Rev. 19:1-8. Thus, in Chapter 19 is the marriage for those whom were enraptured, the harvest as a second wave of gathering although lightly mentioned in Ch. 19 at Verse 9 (this seems to be supported in Chapter 12 via the two gatherings at Rev. 12:6, and Rev. 12:14), and lastly the wine-press for the beast and his army in vv. 19:11-21. You have 13, 17, and 18 as mid-point but these chapters that are the rise of the beast and the fall of Babylon that appears to be the world economy that is replaced by the mark of the beast; both belong at the beginning of the tribulation era. boraddict, How is Rev14:6-20 the midpoint? In Rev 14:7 we see: That would start judgment. Not be 3.5 years into it. Simply, a request is made to fear God and give him glory because he is about to judge. Its an acknowledgment to the inhabitants of the earth to save themselves and change their wicked lives. That demonstrates a beggining, not a midpoint. Further, the following verse shows what happens at a beginning of judgement (not wrath as they are different words and meanings): The destruction of Babylon is what God judges. This judgment is based upon answering his servants who are martyred and the question they ask him in the 5th seal. We know this because Rev 18:24 proves it. And this blood of all his saints on the earth is why the question is asked in Rev 6:9-10 and God answers them by Babylons destruction. Now, back to Rev 14:7 where we saw the command that his judgment is about to begin...what happened before this? Simply, the 144k are already sealed. The implication is that their sealing in Revelation 7:4-8 precedes God's judgment and is outside any judgment and wrath. This is backed up when we read: The command is given by God to not hurt anything till after they are sealed. Therefore, with both this command by God and the command to begin judgment in Rev 14, the sealing of the 144k is prior to any judgment or wrath by God. To negate any of this, I don't know how you would.
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Post by venge on Jul 24, 2020 7:35:29 GMT -6
boraddict , Regarding your Rev 19 post, Rev 19:2 shows Babylon's destruction, Following Babylons destruction is Christ beginning to reign. The marriage comes AFTER Babylon is destroyed and AFTER Christ begins to reign. How would the marriage happen in heaven back before the first seal when it said here she just had made herself ready after Babylon is destroyed? And because the marriage JUST happened, the saying goes out from heaven to bless anyone called to the marriage supper which happens AFTER the marriage of verse 7. If you disagree, you'd have to explain to me why Rev 19:4-5 suggest this: If the 4 living beast and the 24 elders worship God, and that is supoposed to be the church which I 100% disagree with, why are ALL God's servants told to praise him and fear him? The elders and the beast were not told, they just did it. But the command goes out for all his servants to do it because some may have, but many have not. The wording is instructing us to continue in it and for those that don't know God to change. If we were in heaven, all his servants would have done it already because we were shown doing it in verse 4. If you say its only Pre-TB saints in verse 5, explain "all ye his servants and all that fear his name". That implies a larger group then Pre-TB saints and you'd have to explain around the comments I posted above to make it all work.
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Jul 24, 2020 11:36:26 GMT -6
Great. Thank you rondonmonson , and I am with you on the midpoint. Take a look at the following chart and see how it fits with your conclusions. Chapters 1-3 and 20-22 are not included in the mid-point chart.
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| 1) |
| 2) |
| 3) |
| 4) | Mid-point |
| Rev. 8:1-11:2 |
| Rev. 12:7-12 |
| Rev. 14:6-20 |
| Rev. 19:11-21 |
1) I included from the half hour silence (v. 8:1) to the construction of the temple as a midpoint because I have the silence as the harvest (?) and the four trumpets as the destruction of the beast (and false prophet), and lastly the temple is built leaving 3.5 years until the end. 2) I included the war in heaven (vv. 12:7:-12) as a type of the war upon the earth wherein the beast and false prophet are destroyed although that is not clearly stated. 3) I see the angel of Rev. 14:6-7 giving a reference to the four trumpets (Rev. 8:6-12) followed that angel's reference again in Rev. 8:13. As a result, I think that the angel of Verse 14:6-7 is announcing the destruction of the beast (and false prophet) that takes place after the 144,000 are sealed in Chapter 7 and standing with Christ in Chapter 14. Wherein, the harvest takes place beginning at Rev. 14:14-16 followed by the wine-press wherein the beast is destroyed at Rev. 14:17-20 although it is not clearly stated as such. I am saying that Rev. 8:1-12 that is the half hour silence and 4 trumpets appear to be the harvest and destruction of the two beasts (from Chapters 12-13) that in Chapter 14 are depicted as the harvest and the wine-press at Rev. 14:15-20. 4) I think that the Savior conducts the harvest followed by the wine-press (in Rev. 19:9-21). The harvest seems to be referenced in the link at Rev. 19:9 to Rev. 14:13. The marriage of the saints that were enraptured in Rev. 18:4 appears to be taking place in Rev. 19:1-8. Thus, in Chapter 19 is the marriage for those whom were enraptured, the harvest as a second wave of gathering although lightly mentioned in Ch. 19 at Verse 9 (this seems to be supported in Chapter 12 via the two gatherings at Rev. 12:6, and Rev. 12:14), and lastly the wine-press for the beast and his army in vv. 19:11-21. You have 13, 17, and 18 as mid-point but these chapters that are the rise of the beast and the fall of Babylon that appears to be the world economy that is replaced by the mark of the beast; both belong at the beginning of the tribulation era. Hello sister, Rev. 14:6-20 would be basically correct, except there is a "FLASHBACK" in verses 14-17 that shows the Pre-tribulation rapture. In Rev. 12 I would say Satan is cast down at the exact midway point and thus verses 7-17 are the last 1260 days in full. As per Rev. 19, we can't know thee exact mid-point because this all happens in Heaven, but from verse 11-20 we know are Jesus returning on the White Horse to Conquer the Wicked/Beast/False Prophet/Satan/Babylon = Whole World. As per Rev. 8:1 to Rev. 11_2 that is much more complicated. Rev. 8 starts at the midway point for sure, Rev. 9 and Rev. 15&16 continue onto the 7th Vial. We see Rev. 10 is just a FLASH FORWARD to the very end when time will be no more [as we know it]. In other words we will be in "Jesus time" after this, Amen. Revelation 11 is all about the Two-witnesses, that is why we see the 2nd Woe repeated in Rev. 11, its already been shown in Rev. 9 that the 2nd Woe is an (IMHO) Angelic Army of 200 million which slays 1/3 of all men who have taken the Mark of the Beast, thus its called "a Plague" in verse 20. We know 200 Million Chinese warriors don't bring Plagues, only God can do that. So, I don't see Rev. 11 as a part of the order, sure it covers the Midway point, it even starts 75 days before the Midway point, but I don't see this as a part pf the Chronological Order of the book of Revelation, I see this chapter as the Two-witnesses Ministry on earth chapter. It's ALL ABOUT THEM. Now I see why you went that way, the Temple will be built before the Two-witnesses arrive on earth. Rev. 11:1-3 is just John being shown what the Two-witnesses parameters are, the Two=witnesses, like Jesus are only called to earth for ONE PURPOSE, to call the Jews unto Repentance, the Gentile Church has already been Raptured thus the "TIME OF THE GENTILES" has come full. Revelation 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. Here is what John is shown, most do not see this, God is perfect in all His Symmetry, we have to look deep to find His truths many times they are right in front of our eyes and we overlook them. God is telling John to measure the Temple and the Altar and THOSE THAT WORSHIP THEREIN.................Get it ? God is saying the Two-witnesses are sent to the Jews only here.........then John is told do not measure the Gentile Court of the Temple. The actual Temple had a court for the Gentiles to enter into, they could not enter the temple nor the altar area. The Wailing Wall is a part of the old Gentile Court, no part of the Temple is actually still standing. So, we are given the measurement as per to who the Two-witnesses will prophesy unto, they have come to turn Israel back unto God. The bible tells us this in Malachi 4:5-6. Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:(1260 event) 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. The war in heaven is at the MIDWAY POINT because Satan is kicked out at the midway point. (1260) Rev. 14 is an odd chapter until one gets its point of emphasis correct. It's the "Harvest Chapter". Notice, the 144,000 (fleeing Jews who are protected in Petra) are with Jesus on Mt. Zion, that is of course after he has returned at the Second Coming. Verses 17-20 show the Armageddon Harvest of the Wicked Tares, so the 144,000 would be the Wheat (Israel) who repented before the DOTL came. They both grow together until the very end, so everything else in the chapter has to be flashbacks. Verses 6-10 are thus all Flashbacks to the Midway point on until the very end where Babylon Falls, however I do believe Babylon actually falls at the moment God's Wrath starts falling, its a foregone conclusion right? Once God starts the War there is only one winner, Satan, the Beast and all his minions are GONG DOWN !! The Harvest of the Wicked will go on for 3.5 years as they die over that whole time period. They will be bundled into the grave to be burned at a later time.(1000 years later). This chapter is mostly about the Three Harvests, the Harvest of the Church, the Harvest of the Jews/First-fruits and the Harvest of the Wicked tares. Amen. In Rev. 19:9 we see that is about the Marriage of the Raptured Church and her Marriage Feast (Armageddon) whilst Rev. 14:13 is about those who died during the 70th week tribulation period. We see that ONLY THEY live and serve with Christ on earth for 1000 years, which I assume means the Church, in our glorious bodies, go back to Heaven to help build New Jerusalem, or we are given other things to do, who knows. Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Rev. 18:4 is the same ones fleeing Judea in Rev. 7 (144,000) and the Jews who Jesus told to Flee Judea when they see the Abomination of Desolation which happens at the 1290 (SEE Daniel 12:11). Thus God calls his people to COME OUT of Babylon (world) lest she partakes in her sins and of her plagues....Get it? Plagues? Flee to Petra else you will be hit by the exact same plagues as Babylon (rest of the world). God protects the Woman (Israel) for 1260 days, the Earth protects her, a Rock formation and God using the elements like He did in Egypt (wall of fire/Red Sea etc. etc.). So, it can't be the same thing sister, Rev. 19 starts via the Rapture, PRE TRIBULATION Rapture whilst Rev. 18 starts in the EXACT MID POINT of the 70th week. Notice also Rev. 18:2, Babylon (world) has become the Habitation of Devils, but why? Because, at the EXACT MID POINT who is cast down to earth ? Satan of course !! ...........We know this one happens at the mid point, see how it all comes together sister ? You do know the Beast only rules for 42 months right ? So, the Beast arising out of the Sea has 42 MONTHS to rule so he must start in the Middle of the Week. WATCH: Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue "forty and two months". The Kings in league with the Beast KILL OFF the Harlot Religions, and we also know EXACTLY HOW LONG they rule also sister. WATCH: Rev. 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. This means they receive power a SHORT TIME with the Beast, thus we know the Beast rules for 42 months thus we know the Kings/Horns rule 42 months. They thus can not rule before the MID POINT of the 70th week. And as I showed above sister, Rev. 18 starts at the MID POINT of the 70th week, Satan is cast down to earth and Apollyon loosed from the bottomless pit at the midway point or in the middle of the week. Israel flees in the middle of the week, AND the World (Babylon) is Judged starting at the 1260 Event. God Bless.
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Post by boraddict on Jul 24, 2020 11:53:26 GMT -6
Thank you venge ,. Okay, please look at Rev. 14:6-7 as follows: "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people. Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters." (KJV) Thus, the hour of God's judgment has come that made heaven, earth, the sea, and the fountains of waters. In other words the verse seems to be saying that the judgment is upon heaven, earth, the sea, and the fountains of waters that God has made and I think that I can show this. We see destruction in Rev. 8:6-12; upon the earth (v. 7), upon the sea (vv. 8-9), upon the fountains of waters (vv. 10-11), and upon the heavens (v. 12). Then in the next verse, Rev. 8:13, John mentions that an angel flying through heaven states: "And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!" So I am saying that the angel of Rev. 14:6-7 is the same angel that is in Rev. 8:13. In the first instance the angel announces heaven, earth, sea, and fountain of waters that God has made. Then after they are destroyed then that same angel is announcing the three woes that are yet to sound. Since Rev. 8:6-12 is at the midpoint, and Rev. 14:6-7 is speaking about those verses, then vv. 14:6-7 is at the midpoint as well. You are correct about the destruction of Babylon and the mark of the beast not being midpoint because those two events are clearly at the beginning of the tribulation. However, Chapter 14 is saying that the judgment is upon them who destroyed Babylon and took the mark of the beast. They are the beast of the earth and followers, as well as the beast of the sea and followers. So the judgment that is referenced (v. 14:6-7, 8:6-12) is not the judgment upon Babylon but upon those who destroyed Babylon and took the mark of the beast. So, Rev. 14:6-7 announces the judgment upon heaven, earth, sea, and fountains of waters and Rev. 14:8-11 clarifies who those people are.
So there is a judgment upon Babylon that is clearly referenced in Rev. 19:2 "For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.” However, there is also the judgment upon the beast and false prophet as shown in Rev. 19:11-21 wherein they are destroyed and imprisoned. I am saying that the judgment as referenced in Rev. 14:6-7 is the judgment wherein "He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.” (Rev. 13:10). Additionally, the judgment upon the beast and false prophet must wait until the 144,000 have been sealed (Rev. 7:1-3). So in Chapter 14 the 144,000 have been sealed and the judgment upon the beasts can begin.
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Jul 24, 2020 12:34:22 GMT -6
I think you are referring to Rev. 18:2 brother, not 19:2. Rev. 19:2 says nothing about the Fall of Babylon per se. We see the Church marrying the Lamb in Rev. 19 then returning with the Lamb later on in the same Chapter. The Harlot is not Babylon, the Harlot = ALL FALSE RELIGION of all time. We can plainly see they are two different entities, the Harlot RIDES the Beast. The kings HATED the Harlot in Rev. 17 but Lamented and Mourned when Babylon was burning, because Babylon is the WHOLE WORLD. We have to be able to discern when God is giving us clues to describe something, instead too many times we think God is calling the Harlot Babylon, He was not. He was showing us who the Harlot is. MYSTERY (this was not a clue, thus Mystery Babylon is ALWAYS WRONG, this was meant by God to be a Header.....) MYSTERY.........Then the clues to the Mystery. 1. Babylon the Great. 2. Mother of Harlots 3. Abominations of all the Earth. What does God reveal to us here ? His Secret (Musterion simply means Secret by God's Silence.....or to shut the mouth). That Secret is given unto us in these three clues. The Harlot was associated with Babylon, she was the Mother of harlots and she is an Abomination. That would = All False Religion of all time, Babylon is noted as the city of False Religion, false religion is an Abomination, Semiramis was the Mother of False Religion in Babylon. God describes what the Harlot is unto us here, FALSE RELIGION. This is why the Kings kill her off when they Demand Beast Worship, they know that the Islamic Hordes will not put up with this, they die now for their "god" Allah, don't you think that the Anti-Christ already knows this? He knows these Muslims will never worship a man as God? So he is going to do away with all religions except Beast Worship, this is how these False Religions get Judged. Rev. 17:17 even says God puts it in their hearts to do His will. The the great whore is False Religion, not Babylon Falling. False Religion is what killed the [Jewish] Saints AND the Martyrs of Jesus....................see how both were mentioned in Rev. 17? Because its about ALL FALSE RELIGION down through the ages or ALL TIME. God sees ANY WORSHIP of any God besides Him as an Abomination, of course, Hes a jealous God. In Rev. 18 Babylon represents Beast Powers or Earthly Kingdoms....The Harlot RIDES the Beast, they were always co-mingled until the Last Beast Kingdom desires to be worshiped as a god himself, that is why Antiochus is the TYPE, he thought he was a god !! Epiphanes literally means God Manifest after all. It comes after it states the Harlot is destroyed, but God goes back and forth here, He knows the beginning from the end. We know from reading Rev. 4 and 5 that the Church has on White Robes before the Seals are opened, thus before the Midway point of the 70th week, thus we know that the Harlot has to be judged after the Marriage, which means the real Emphasis of Rev. 19 is about the Second Coming/Armageddon, so with that being the focal point of the chapter, then of course the Harlot is judged before the Armageddon Battle begins. Its just like in Rev. 14, we get a FLASH BACK to the Rapture in verses 14-16. Well, I explained the Harlot is not Babylon, I guess I foresaw where this was going. Rev. 19 runs for the full 7 years just like Rev. 14 does. See my TIMELINE above. The 24 Elders represent the Raptured Church. God goes back and forth in certain chapters, its just prose. People over analyze minutia IMHO way to much. The Second Coming can't really mean the Second Coming if you read John 20, where Jesus tells Mary TOUCH ME NOT for I have not yet ascended unto the Father (to offer the Sacrifice). Thus he was saying if you touch me you will defile the Sacrifice with your sin flesh, for no sin flesh can even enter heaven. But 8 days later he allowed Doubting Thomas to touch his wounds, this tells us that Jesus went to the Father, offered the Sacrifice, then returned with the Holy Spirit as a gift to the bride. Yet, if someone says Second Coming, I am not going to get off into the minutia that its not really the Second Coming, because I know its about the two advents, the Suffering Servant and the Conquering King. Amen. The Four Beasts are Arch Angels, the 24 Elders are the Church as defined by the scriptures. The Fear IMHO references Reverence not fear, we can't really fear a God who is full of such compassion and love, we just fear His judgments on the wicked, and thus we are too fearful to put ourselves in a position to be judged by an Almighty, Righteous God!! And thus we know we need to be under the blood, if that makes any sense at all to you. It means what it means, but it also means great reverence. I feared my dads spankings when I did wrong, so I did not do wrong, but I loved my dad and knew he would never do anything to hurt me. If I got a spanking I needed it. But I feared by dads belt/switches/heavy hand on my rear end if I went awry. So I didn't. In Rev. 4:4 we see that the 24 Elders have Crowns, White Robes and sat on Thrones. These were all promises made to the Churches who OVERCAME in Rev. 2 and 3. Then in Rev. 5:9-10 we see that those singing are the REDEEMED, and we know Angels of God do not need Redeeming, the 24 Elders also represent the 24 Orders of the Priesthood in 1 Chronicles 24, and in verse 10 we are called Kings and Priests. Rev. 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. Rev. 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Rev. 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. I mean, how loud does God have tom SHOUT to get our attention here? Hes clearly showing us these 24 Elders are the Church in Heaven BEFORE the Seals are ever opened. Then Rev. 5:9-10 takes it one step further, those SINGING are the REDEEMED from ALL NATIONS. It can be nothing else but the Church brother.
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Post by boraddict on Jul 24, 2020 18:39:48 GMT -6
rondonmonson , you have a lot of interesting stuff in your posting to venge on this thread. First of all, you are correct that a slight change in the wording from Harlot to Babylon can mean two different things where you stated: "The Harlot is not Babylon, the Harlot = ALL FALSE RELIGION of all time." And although I have not researched this, it does sound reasonable. Secondly, the same type of condition for Harlot and Babylon (above) also exists for the ten "kings" and "the kings of the earth." Please notice in Rev. 17:2 that the kings referenced are "the kings of the earth" wherein the verse states: "With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication" (KJV). Also, please consider Rev. 18:3 wherein the kings are again referenced as "the kings of the earth" to wit: "For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.” As is apparent, Verse 17:2 harmonizes with Verse 18:3 with regard to what kings are being spoken of. These kings are the kings of the earth that are the great men of the earth; as in honorable men of the earth and this is shown in Rev. 1:5 wherein the Savior is their King as in King of kings to wit: "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,” Also consider Rev. 17:14 where in it states similarly that Jesus is the King of kings: "These (ten kings) shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him (Rev. 14:1) are called, and chosen, and faithful." In other words, Verse 17:14 is telling us that Jesus is the King of the kings of the earth and Chapter 18 tells us that these kings weep at Babylon's destruction. In contrast, the ten kings that support the wicked beast the ten kings that hate the whore as stated in Rev. 17:16, and these wicked kings burn her and eat her flesh. Thus, it seems to me that there are two sets of kings in the Book of Revelation the first of which are often referred to as the kings of the earth and these belong to the Savior (Rev. 5:10). Whereas the kings that follow the beast are the ten kings that take power with the beast (Rev. 17:12).
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Jul 24, 2020 19:28:32 GMT -6
rondonmonson , you have a lot of interesting stuff in your posting to venge on this thread. First of all, you are correct that a slight change in the wording from Harlot to Babylon can mean two different things where you stated: "The Harlot is not Babylon, the Harlot = ALL FALSE RELIGION of all time." And although I have not researched this, it does sound reasonable. Secondly, the same type of condition for Harlot and Babylon (above) also exists for the ten "kings" and "the kings of the earth." Please notice in Rev. 17:2 that the kings referenced are "the kings of the earth" wherein the verse states: "With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication" (KJV). Also, please consider Rev. 18:3 wherein the kings are again referenced as "the kings of the earth" to wit: "For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.” As is apparent, Verse 17:2 harmonizes with Verse 18:3 with regard to what kings are being spoken of. These kings are the kings of the earth that are the great men of the earth; as in honorable men of the earth and this is shown in Rev. 1:5 wherein the Savior is their King as in King of kings to wit: "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,” Also consider Rev. 17:14 where in it states similarly that Jesus is the King of kings: "These (ten kings) shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him (Rev. 14:1) are called, and chosen, and faithful." In other words, Verse 17:14 is telling us that Jesus is the King of the kings of the earth and Chapter 18 tells us that these kings weep at Babylon's destruction. In contrast, the ten kings that support the wicked beast the ten kings that hate the whore as stated in Rev. 17:16, and these wicked kings burn her and eat her flesh. Thus, it seems to me that there are two sets of kings in the Book of Revelation the first of which are often referred to as the kings of the earth and these belong to the Savior (Rev. 5:10). Whereas the kings that follow the beast are the ten kings that take power with the beast (Rev. 17:12). They are, but Satan rules them all. The 10 Kings represent fractured kingdom of Rome (Iron and Clay) the number 10 is used by God to point out the full number over a long distance of time, in other words in Romes time there was ONE King over the area, a 1000 years ago there might have been 9 kings over the area, in the 1500's there might have been 20 plus kings. The E.U. had 27 Nations/Kings until England left, now they have 26 Nations/Kings, so the only way to describe this fractured Nation of the Fourth Beast is to use the number 10. God uses the number 7 in the same manner, He has 7 Spirits and 7 Eyes, but it only means God sees all and is everywhere at all times. The 10 represents all the nations in the E.U. basically, whatever number that is. The other kings are likewise ruled by Satan also, see Luke 4, Satan showed Jesus all the kingdoms of the whole world and stated that these were given unto him to do as he so willed with. So, all the earthly kings are wicked, and the 10 Kings are his POWER BASE in the European Union. Gotta Run, God Bless sister. You are plugging away every day, God honors hard work, I love you sister.
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Post by boraddict on Jul 25, 2020 13:21:42 GMT -6
Thank you rondonmonson , and while it is true that earthly kings are not perfect, some do in fact follow the Savior. So let's consider that: 1) a sinner 2) that is also a king 3) repents Then that king is cleansed in the blood of Jesus as stated in Rev. 1:5 to wit: "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood" (KJV). My point is that in the Book of Revelation some kings are with the Savior and some are not. Thus, there are two sets of kings in the book. Please consider Rev. 19:19 which by the way is one of my favorite verses of the book. In it's following form the kings in the verse might be considered to be with the beast. "And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.” However, when the parallels of the verse are considered then the following results from the analysis: 1) "And I saw the beast, 2) and the kings of the earth, 3) and their armies, gathered together to make war 4) against him that sat on the horse, 5) and against his army.” As you can see 1&4, the beast is against the Savior, 3, their armies are gathered together to make war 2&5, the kings of the earth are against his army The verse clearly states that both beast and the Savior have armies. Thus, item 3 states that both the army of the beast and the army of the Savior are gathered to make war. Since both armies are gathered to make war, then the verse can be considered in the following form: 1) army of the beast and army of the Savior 2) gathered to make war
3) army of the Savior and army of the beast Thus, the beast in the verse includes his army, and the Savior in the verse includes his army to wit: "And I saw the beast (including his army), and the kings of the earth (including the Savior), and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse (and his army), and against (the beast and) his army.” The verse is simply beautiful with contrasts and in my opinion one of the most elegant works of poetry in the Book of Revelation. In the next verse (Rev. 19:20) it is made clear that the false prophet is included with the beast. So, in Verse 19:19 the false prophet is included as part of the beast's army. Then in Rev. 19:21 the beast's army is slain by the Savior's army that is described as the sword from the Savior's mouth and the fouls. Thus, the sword and fowls (Rev. 19:15, 17) are the Savior's army. Please consider that vv. 19:15, 17 belong to a set of verses 19:15-17 which means that the center is Rev. 19:16 showing that the Savior considers his army to be kings and lords. As a result, my analysis of Rev. 19:19 is supported by Verse 19:16 and "the kings of the earth" in the Book of Revelation is the Savior's army.
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